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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines956 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:14 tree.hugger wrote: I'd imagine the last thing you'd want to do against  Flash as a protoss player is turn the match into a TvT. lol | ||
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Mekexi
Poland18 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + USE THOSE RECALLS SMARTER, GODDAMN IT!! Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE. Why not...: ...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo? Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8194 Posts
1- You assume that you'll manage to steal an scv. That's already a bet. 2- You build a damn cc. Takes ages. 3- You build a rax. Takes also some times. 4- You build some facts. 5- You add goddamn add-on 6- You can start making tanks, and searching siege. Do you realize that you are already dead 6 times? Free lasted 20 minutes at most the other day. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:23 Mekexi wrote: I appreciate OP's effort, but I think there is much simplier and stronger answer: + Show Spoiler + USE THOSE RECALLS SMARTER, GODDAMN IT!! Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE. Why not...: ...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo? Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused. Agree with some points here. Many tosses just recall at the obvious places all the time e.g. into minefields at T:s main. And like you pointed out why not use defensive recall so that Protoss gains even more mobility. But I think the arbiter trend among the tosses needs to be reworked. The lategame Carrier switch is also so fucking obvious and good T:s often scouts this in time and macros up a blob of Goliats and pushes to engage before the Carriers has reached critical mass. I rather see some creative play with Templars and hallucination or maybe scouts. When Terran is maxed in supply and upgrades, Protoss really needs to utilize the mana-based units even more to counter Terran. | ||
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: And who is the player who will survive long enough / have the skill to fight Flash for such a long time while playing sim city with a terran scv? 1- You assume that you'll manage to steal an scv. That's already a bet. 2- You build a damn cc. Takes ages. 3- You build a rax. Takes also some times. 4- You build some facts. 5- You add goddamn add-on 6- You can start making tanks, and searching siege. Do you realize that you are already dead 6 times? Free lasted 20 minutes at most the other day. Kal did, Stork and Free are certainly able to. Tanks do take a long time to build but I'm about is toss' choices in late game. They need some way to keep winning when they have the advantage, some ultimate goal to beat the maxed t army and carriers is the lesser solution compared to this. You must realize that P loses nothing from this once the scv's are his. P can still macro out of his gates when t pushes but now he has the option of tanks too. Who cares about how long it takes, at the end of the day it's about using all your money to make as many units as possible. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it. This season: 1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ??? Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control. | ||
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SturmAddict
Malaysia176 Posts
These guys (most of the time) has phenomenal tank placement even when they are on the move in vP. The reason these guys are confident in doing 3 base 8-9 fact sometimes, is because they are confident that they can beat arbiters and storms without the help of vessels. Sure, the counter to arbiters is vessels, EMP them, and you are safe. vessels does nothing against storm though. Thats why non S+ class players like sea, light, iris,hiya dies frequently to run-of-the-mill protoss players(to me all P players are run-of-the-mill....no significant difference in playstyle whatsoever. except backho). They siege their tanks in a clump and hope their EMP gets off before they get stasis, only to die a horrible death to Storms from players like stork,jangbi,shuttle. Why? This is because terran has the even stronger and almost unbeatable counter to all cute stasis/storm/DA play. which is tank placement and micro. If you watch Flash and hwasin play, they are able to melt a 180/200 protoss army with less then a full command group of tanks and vultures AND wins with a sheer large margin....why? simply because they spread it in a large deep arc, making them immune literally to storm , stasis , siege fire, and mine explosions. The thing is, TvP was never really imbalanced to the terran. its just that how good a terran is at it depends almost surely to the degree of micro that he invests into it Hence we see Top tier terran players doing reaaaaaally good, winning against-the-odds battles, making it seem imbalanced And is also why non top tier terran just fails whenever they meet a protoss. | ||
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Creationism
China505 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:23 Mekexi wrote: I appreciate OP's effort, but I think there is much simplier and stronger answer: + Show Spoiler + USE THOSE RECALLS SMARTER, GODDAMN IT!! Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE. Why not...: ...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo? Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused. You OBVIOUSLY don't understand the game AT ALL. You NEVER have more than 1 or 2 recalls in an even game, or even a slightly advantageous game. At the pro level, even energy is so stressed that it is basically kept in check the whole game. This is like saying, why doesn't the terran in TvZ jus defense matrix his entire army and then kill expos? Killing armories and perhaps a cc and some depots are some of the BEST results that can happen with a recall. If you waste recalls to "defend distant bases", by which I assume you mean an expo that is being attack by the likes of 2-3 tanks and a vulture or 2, you are gonna get ROLLED by the push due to the lack of stases. Before watching a game n going, hey, I have a better idea, learn a little about the game first. | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
The problem is terran can have anti air, but hey, hallucinated arbiters anyone? How to make the tanks clumb together and make them ready for stasis? Im not saying this is easy but if you can get the tanks to move and then move in yourself then the terran will respond with pressing "O" for sieging as fast as possible thus clumbing up the tanks and they will be ready for stasi, instead of stasis spread out tanks. Ofcourse when the tanks siege you get out of there. | ||
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years
Costa Rica216 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
So I'm afraid it won't work:/ | ||
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lowbright
308 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:14 tree.hugger wrote: I'd imagine the last thing you'd want to do against Flash as a protoss player is turn the match into a TvT. hahaha well to be fair, flash is 8-2 in his last 10 tvt and 10-0 in his last tvp so... | ||
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Reason
United Kingdom2770 Posts
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antrax
Peru191 Posts
Format (Time,Min,Gas) Tank path after stolen SCV: - CC (120,400,0) - Barrack (80,150,0) - Fact (80,250,100) - Addon (40,50,50) - Siege (80,150,150) Optional because Mind Control - Tank (50,150,100) Time absorved by Siege upgrade time Cost of first operational tank Total (400,1150,400) Carrier path considering Arbiter path already taken - Fleet Beacon (60,300,200) - Inter Capacity (100,100,100) Time Absorved by Carrier building time - Carrier (140,350,250) - Interceptor (20,25,0) - 8xInterceptors (160,200,0) Cost of first operational Carrier Total (360, 950, 550) Well, at least in theory this is not such bad thing. Have in mind that 1 Carrier represents more or less the cost of 3 tanks (min,gas) but 1 Carrier takes twice the time. People who blindly say no should give it a try and then come back to talk, in 2002-04 people said FE PvZ was nonsense and now it is standard ... I'm just saying let's see what happens. Although I don't like the idea of MC'ing a SCV using a Shuttle, would it be better to make a recall (DA included) trying to kill an expo and then MC'ing one of those annoying SCV's repairing the CC and finally recall back. One other thing, why pros don't use DA anyway to fight off those damn Vessels? | ||
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exeexe
Denmark937 Posts
I think if you are so obsessed with using mindcontrol then best use, is to mindcontrol keytanks. Like tanks on high ground that you have to travel 4647456 km in order to be on the same highground as these keytanks. So say 7 tanks is on lowground and defending the nat and 2 keytanks is on highground in main but able to shoot to nat, then mindcontrol the keytanks. | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
or some 2 base attack after a 12 nexus because Flash has shown he likes to play greedy and take a fast 3rd in response to 12 nex. | ||
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Mekexi
Poland18 Posts
You should also count the cost of some Depots, since one CC grants you only 10 supply. However, your Tanks will come out at 0/0 upgrades. Against 3/3 enemies they will be inferior. | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote: Last season: 1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it. This season: 1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ??? Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control. I'm on board with this guy. It looks like Flash can't be beaten right now, but someone will step up. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
Here's how you opened the thread: On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran? That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce. So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game. When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have. Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Project_Revolution_Dark_Archon.gif) I swear I'm not trolling And here's how you should've opened it: On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran? That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce. So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game. When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have. Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy ![[image loading]](http://media.tuzulo.com/images/5ypfa/5yhd9/06222009-gchizzletext.jpg) The last hope of the protoss race. | ||
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