Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game.
When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have.
Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy
Should you ever use Mind Control in a serious game?
NO! It costs too much and it takes TOO long to make a race switch and you WONT be able to get the worker back to your base and IF YOU ARE ABLE TO MIND CONTROL THEIR WORKERS YOU'RE WINNING ANYWAY.
Let me tell you why it needs to be used against Flash
It take about as much time as a mass carrier switch without the psi block (when the carrier is being made and taking up psi). Let's keep it real, late game pvt you wont move out unless you have 5-6 carrier with at least 1-1 ups. CC->rax->factories+some supplies and now you have tanks!
Toss can afford it. In the late game on big maps if toss is able afford a carrier switch then they are certainly able to afford to make tanks.
Toss will have a 200+ army. Now this is the biggie here, some extra supplies of units is the boost toss will need to beat a 200 terran ground army.
Now getting the scv(s) will be the hard part in this strat. The best way I can think of is to drop 2 DA's mind control and recall everything back within a matter of seconds. No idea if this is the best way though.
Now you might be thinking this is getting ridiculous.... Certainly any mortal wont be able to pull this off nor will he have the priviledge to play Flash in pvt. Top tier tosses (Stork, Kal, Free, Bisu? lulz) certainly can, and honestly they'll need to take their games 1 step further to be able to beat Flash since he is already many steps ahead.
Please discuss
Update: example with this game
For example this game:
@17:00 in 10 oclock and pretty much the whole game at Flash's nat MC is possible. @30:00 to end Kal makes the carrier switch and sacrifices probes for psi.
Kal stays maxed for the whole game but loses every engagement because flash is also maxed. He has the extra money but can't use it. Now imagine if Kal was able to macro tanks he would've secured 12 oclock and not be forced to use his money on carriers at 30:00. Eventually he'll use all his minerals and get a 200+ army which beats a 200 t army and roll t's bases.
this thread is a testament to the sheer desperation flash´s play provokes in his opponents minds.
but seriously, flying in a shuttle with DAs, then immediately recalling them home and then building up a terran army as toss, in a competitive game. how cool would that be? whoever pulls this off with success would raise his fanbase by a factor of over 9000 in one single game.
I bet this can work in late game, i mean c'mon. I doubt terran players have goliaths or turrents at ALL his expansions. It will work if someone actually goes for it.
The problem is that flash's defence is inpenetrable, you outlined that this was the hardest part of the strat (actually mind controlling the scv). How do you get a shuttle to land and then not have the scv intantly vaporise to tank or vulture fire. Flash (and terrans in general) will always have bases well defended. Even if one player managed to do it all Terrans would fear the humiliation and defend bases in future matches with more zeal. It's a strategy that MAY work in a few games, but not an actual viable solution to FvP.
It's not as difficult to pull off as people believe. The recall is a good idea. I've often wondered why no one ever tried this. One shuttle to fly the DA in and a recall back out seems perfectly possible to me.
In fact I've been thinking if there is some kind of gentleman's agreement between the players not to use this kind of mind controlled scv stuff, because it would be totally unstoppable if it would succeed.
It is not entirely impossible that someone could pull this off with a little luck. It's not a long term solution though. But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it.
On May 13 2010 00:21 dukethegold wrote: Kal came pretty damn close to winning against Flash multiple times.
Result isn't everything. If you watched the game, you would realize Kal is able to push Flash to the limit.
I'd invest some faith in him.
Absolutely, I've watch all the Kal vs Flash games and they are indeed close. Kal still get's stuck at the carrier stage though, lacking in mobility and unable to reinforce interceptors because he's unable to defend his bases. What i'm simply proposing is that carriers aren't the optimal solution to late game pvt DA's are.
On May 13 2010 00:21 The_Australian wrote: The problem is that flash's defence is inpenetrable, you outlined that this was the hardest part of the strat (actually mind controlling the scv). How do you get a shuttle to land and then not have the scv intantly vaporise to tank or vulture fire. Flash (and terrans in general) will always have bases well defended. Even if one player managed to do it all Terrans would fear the humiliation and defend bases in future matches with more zeal. It's a strategy that MAY work in a few games, but not an actual viable solution to FvP.
In a lot of games when terran expands, defences aren't immediately set up. Toss usually spots this with an observer but is unable to move and kill it due to terran and the defence line terran has already set up outside the expo. I think it's prefectly possible to fly in a shuttle at this point. I guess we can only see if it's a viable solution if someone does it first =/
On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
On May 13 2010 00:25 Holgerius wrote: It is not entirely impossible that someone could pull this off with a little luck. It's not a long term solution though. But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it.
Pretty sure flash would rape the living daylights out of the protoss before he lets them get an assload of tanks? he's not that dumb
Hahaha fun idea. But then you would have to beat Flash in TvT .. even worse if possible
Edit: Stork captured a drone in a PvZ once. Against ggplay if i remember correctly. But didnt produce too much units unfortunately . But he made zerglings for the (also stolen) defilers to consume . One of the best games i've ever seen
Like I said, even the top tier tosses at the moment will need to practice to be able to pull this off. The timing will be in that brief time when toss is on more bases and maxed and terran isn't. Toss needs someway of defending their bases in late game and tanks is certainly the better solution than carriers.
On May 13 2010 00:25 Holgerius wrote: It is not entirely impossible that someone could pull this off with a little luck. It's not a long term solution though. But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it.
Pretty sure flash would rape the living daylights out of the protoss before he lets them get an assload of tanks? he's not that dumb
It wont take much longer than carriers switch at which time protoss is maxed and very rich. So instead of having just carriers toss will have a max p ground army and a few tanks.
Lulz, don't use a shuttle to get the dark archons in. Use an Arbiter to recall them into the T base, spam mind control on the SCVs, then use an Arbiter in your base to recall.
However, it still wouldn't work. Flash would likely kill the archons and any protoss scvs with his defenses. Also, the time and resources required would give flash an opportunity to roflstomp the protoss before anything could be built.
It wont take much longer than carriers switch at which time protoss is maxed and very rich. So instead of having just carriers toss will have a max p ground army and a few tanks.
Flash is really good at pushing right before carrier timing kicks in though. he doesnt let them get a few carriers, he destroys them while they're on the way. Also, wouldnt you think that if a shuttle could fly around to an undefended base then wouldn't protoss be doing this all day with storm or dt drops already?
I like ideas like this but they usually have the same problem
Cool idea --> oh noes, a pitfall, think about other tech to make it work (hallucinated shuttles for instance) --> Can't exist within the metagame --> not viable.
The problem with this strategy is that although you have the resources for the strategy to be viable, flash's timing attack would come before the protoss would have sufficient time to make his way up the terran tech tree and have enough production buildings to make it worth doing. try it in a real game, you have to wait for a command center to build and for a barracks to be built. you would lose even more time since flash would know what you're doing and kill the scv as quickly as possible, which means you would have to waste more money and energy in getting another scv. it's a good idea in theory but would not be tenable in practice. Also, money is not infinite, making your way up the tech tree costs a lot of gas, i dont believe that people havent tried this already in a pro game house without failing.
I think a better solution would be more stargates/gateways and more carriers/HTs. Carriers + HT's combination > all terran unit combinations. Getting a dark archon does seem to happen somewhat frequently though. I guess if the opportunity arises to do what you said it would be good but in no way could I see it becoming the new PvT metagame.
On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
edit: But that strat does sound quite hilarious. No idea how would that work though.
But I remember there was a game where the toss stole SCV, made tanks and won, if I'm not mistaken.
I remember seeing that game too... ah damn if I could only remember who it was.
Edit: Found it, intotherainbow vs cloud. Great game in general for anyone who hasn't seen it but rainbow does exactly what you're talking about here. If you just want to see the tanks skip to part 3.
It wont take much longer than carriers switch at which time protoss is maxed and very rich. So instead of having just carriers toss will have a max p ground army and a few tanks.
Flash is really good at pushing right before carrier timing kicks in though. he doesnt let them get a few carriers, he destroys them while they're on the way. Also, wouldnt you think that if a shuttle could fly around to an undefended base then wouldn't protoss be doing this all day with storm or dt drops already?
I like ideas like this but they usually have the same problem
Cool idea --> oh noes, a pitfall, think about other tech to make it work (hallucinated shuttles for instance) --> Can't exist within the metagame --> not viable.
Toss needs to sac some army to start making carriers, so say if you 6 carriers are being made that's 36 supply of 'dead' psi that's not your ground army. Once the carriers are finished (140 build time?) interceptors take more time, upgrades take more time. This large timing is when toss get's rolled because they have less army and can't even make more! With tanks, they can come out one at a time and still provide great defence and toss will not need to sacrifice any army at all.
No man it's simpler than that. You need to hide a citadel somewhere and do a speedlot timing rush cheese. He almost never goes mass vult harass like Fantasy so he will most likely fall the first time
all toss needs is T click T click T click T click 1a2a3a4a GG
jk on a more serious note i have a replay of a toss doing this and it worked really well, don't remember what its called though. there are many stray SCVS out there towards late game so you might not even need shuttles, but just like free vs hiya, its hard to avoid the SCV from getting killed by a group of vultures. how can you hide it from scans? once the scvs are gone you have to cancel the CC or wait another 150 seconds for another scv.
i think its just cuz flash is at his own level at the moment, so to beat flash i think protoss just need to kick it up a notch. janbgi storms, bisu multitasking, stork builds, nal_ra micro, the works.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Hmm, you know what would be cool though? Using DA to feedback enemy vessels to keep them from using EMP/detecting. I think it might be supply effective and cost effective. I'd rather instagib a bunch of vessels than have 3 more dragoons. The issue of course is DAs like everything else on the ground are really good at evaporating to tanks.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Agree with some points here. Many tosses just recall at the obvious places all the time e.g. into minefields at T:s main. And like you pointed out why not use defensive recall so that Protoss gains even more mobility.
But I think the arbiter trend among the tosses needs to be reworked. The lategame Carrier switch is also so fucking obvious and good T:s often scouts this in time and macros up a blob of Goliats and pushes to engage before the Carriers has reached critical mass.
I rather see some creative play with Templars and hallucination or maybe scouts. When Terran is maxed in supply and upgrades, Protoss really needs to utilize the mana-based units even more to counter Terran.
On May 13 2010 02:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: And who is the player who will survive long enough / have the skill to fight Flash for such a long time while playing sim city with a terran scv?
1- You assume that you'll manage to steal an scv. That's already a bet.
2- You build a damn cc. Takes ages.
3- You build a rax. Takes also some times.
4- You build some facts.
5- You add goddamn add-on
6- You can start making tanks, and searching siege.
Do you realize that you are already dead 6 times? Free lasted 20 minutes at most the other day.
Kal did, Stork and Free are certainly able to. Tanks do take a long time to build but I'm about is toss' choices in late game. They need some way to keep winning when they have the advantage, some ultimate goal to beat the maxed t army and carriers is the lesser solution compared to this. You must realize that P loses nothing from this once the scv's are his. P can still macro out of his gates when t pushes but now he has the option of tanks too. Who cares about how long it takes, at the end of the day it's about using all your money to make as many units as possible.
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Guys need to watch Hwasin, flash, forgg, and sometimes MVP play(actually only once).
These guys (most of the time) has phenomenal tank placement even when they are on the move in vP.
The reason these guys are confident in doing 3 base 8-9 fact sometimes, is because they are confident that they can beat arbiters and storms without the help of vessels.
Sure, the counter to arbiters is vessels, EMP them, and you are safe. vessels does nothing against storm though. Thats why non S+ class players like sea, light, iris,hiya dies frequently to run-of-the-mill protoss players(to me all P players are run-of-the-mill....no significant difference in playstyle whatsoever. except backho).
They siege their tanks in a clump and hope their EMP gets off before they get stasis, only to die a horrible death to Storms from players like stork,jangbi,shuttle.
Why? This is because terran has the even stronger and almost unbeatable counter to all cute stasis/storm/DA play. which is tank placement and micro.
If you watch Flash and hwasin play, they are able to melt a 180/200 protoss army with less then a full command group of tanks and vultures AND wins with a sheer large margin....why? simply because they spread it in a large deep arc, making them immune literally to storm , stasis , siege fire, and mine explosions.
The thing is, TvP was never really imbalanced to the terran. its just that how good a terran is at it depends almost surely to the degree of micro that he invests into it
Hence we see Top tier terran players doing reaaaaaally good, winning against-the-odds battles, making it seem imbalanced
And is also why non top tier terran just fails whenever they meet a protoss.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
You OBVIOUSLY don't understand the game AT ALL. You NEVER have more than 1 or 2 recalls in an even game, or even a slightly advantageous game. At the pro level, even energy is so stressed that it is basically kept in check the whole game. This is like saying, why doesn't the terran in TvZ jus defense matrix his entire army and then kill expos?
Killing armories and perhaps a cc and some depots are some of the BEST results that can happen with a recall. If you waste recalls to "defend distant bases", by which I assume you mean an expo that is being attack by the likes of 2-3 tanks and a vulture or 2, you are gonna get ROLLED by the push due to the lack of stases. Before watching a game n going, hey, I have a better idea, learn a little about the game first.
no - thats not how you use DA in pvt. What you do is you use feedbacks on the SV and then move in with arbiters and freese half his army and then you move in with the ground army and hopefully you make more damage to him than he does to you.
The problem is terran can have anti air, but hey, hallucinated arbiters anyone?
How to make the tanks clumb together and make them ready for stasis?
Im not saying this is easy but if you can get the tanks to move and then move in yourself then the terran will respond with pressing "O" for sieging as fast as possible thus clumbing up the tanks and they will be ready for stasi, instead of stasis spread out tanks. Ofcourse when the tanks siege you get out of there.
Flash displays great skill, but most players are underpreforming now. They get blinded by looking at the sun Flash is made up to be. I suppose more players need the attitude stork has yorwards Flash.. and the skill to back it up.
If a protoss uses his gas for dark archons and uses his arbiter energy for recalling back scvs I bet good terrans like Flash would find that to be a really good timing for an attack don't you think?
For those who say that this is impossible, being time the main problem, let's look some numbers :
Format (Time,Min,Gas)
Tank path after stolen SCV:
- CC (120,400,0) - Barrack (80,150,0) - Fact (80,250,100) - Addon (40,50,50) - Siege (80,150,150) Optional because Mind Control - Tank (50,150,100) Time absorved by Siege upgrade time
Cost of first operational tank
Total (400,1150,400)
Carrier path considering Arbiter path already taken
- Fleet Beacon (60,300,200) - Inter Capacity (100,100,100) Time Absorved by Carrier building time - Carrier (140,350,250) - Interceptor (20,25,0) - 8xInterceptors (160,200,0)
Cost of first operational Carrier
Total (360, 950, 550)
Well, at least in theory this is not such bad thing. Have in mind that 1 Carrier represents more or less the cost of 3 tanks (min,gas) but 1 Carrier takes twice the time. People who blindly say no should give it a try and then come back to talk, in 2002-04 people said FE PvZ was nonsense and now it is standard ... I'm just saying let's see what happens.
Although I don't like the idea of MC'ing a SCV using a Shuttle, would it be better to make a recall (DA included) trying to kill an expo and then MC'ing one of those annoying SCV's repairing the CC and finally recall back.
One other thing, why pros don't use DA anyway to fight off those damn Vessels?
antrax you forget the time it takes to get 150 in energy for the mindcontrol and recall.
I think if you are so obsessed with using mindcontrol then best use, is to mindcontrol keytanks. Like tanks on high ground that you have to travel 4647456 km in order to be on the same highground as these keytanks.
So say 7 tanks is on lowground and defending the nat and 2 keytanks is on highground in main but able to shoot to nat, then mindcontrol the keytanks.
I don't know why so many protoss feel they need to switch to lategame carriers while Flash is sitting on 2+ mining bases. In many recent games vs like Kal or Pure, Flash's opponent had somewhat of an advantage in terms of bases and army, then they threw away their army in favor of carriers, but Flash was quickly able to take out their expoes before enough carriers were made. The kid's too good at timings vs carriers. Maybe instead better use of stasis and storm to stop Flash from taking a 4th, or some 2 base attack after a 12 nexus because Flash has shown he likes to play greedy and take a fast 3rd in response to 12 nex.
On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote: Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
I'm on board with this guy. It looks like Flash can't be beaten right now, but someone will step up.
The OP is good, but you made one important mistake, let me explain.
Here's how you opened the thread:
On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game.
When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have.
Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy
I swear I'm not trolling
And here's how you should've opened it:
On May 13 2010 00:00 Pliers wrote: Remember when the universal race imbalance was Protoss>Terran?
That certainly doesn't seem like that case anymore in professional sc. Why? Because terran has found counters and adapted to the array of 'abusive' late game units toss can produce.
So why only talk about Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game.
When it get's to late game and Protoss is maxed and sitting on 5 bases, Flash is almost impenetrable at that point. Knowing that a 200 T army rolling will inevitably come, toss can only prepare for the massive loss they'll incur by making excessive gates and carrier tech. I have not seen a game recently where Flash lost to carriers so I don't see why tosses have been so stubborn to go for them anyway. Oh I know why, because it's the only feasible way of winning they have.
Well I'm proposing an alternate solution and I say Protoss needs to adapt to Flash, and the answer is this guy
On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote: Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
What people seem to forget is that sc isn't perfectly balanced. Asked time and time again, pros would admit that under the best circumstances zerg is the best race (due to macro). The same goes for terran and protoss. Terran units have the highest damage and fairly low health, while protoss units have high health and low damage (with reference to how much they cost). That's why at the lower levels, you can simply "1a2a3a" as protoss and win most of your battles. While a terran player has to heavily focus on positioning and microing. As the skill level rises and rises (along with people's apm and macro management skills), protoss just becomes worse and worse to play. It is generally agreed that protoss is the easiest to play at lower levels but hardest at S class (there has never been a protoss bonjwa). Also, a minor note (but still fairly important), terran mech upgrades are inherently inbalanced. They provide way to much damage, and as protoss, upgrading your armor/shields is pretty much useless (except probes won't get 2 shotted by vultures). The reason for this is blizzard envisioned tanks and vultures to be support units (as they are clearly desgined in sc2 with tanks being more expensive/stronger, and hellions purely for harass) and mnm as your main bulk. Now, what other choices does protoss have? Well, personally the OP's strategy will never work as flash can quickly adapt to counter such measures. What other protoss unit is left? The scout. Would that work? It might be gimmicky and catch terrans off guard a few times, but once again, they can easily adapt. Perhaps if the scout was buffed.... (but that's a diff story). Perhaps the new maps need to be designed in a way for it to be a little bit more protoss favored (or at least not as turtle friendly?). Or maybe we need to stop bitching and wait for a protoss savior to come and prove me wrong.
On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote: Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. Free does it.
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Or we can just wait for the Fall...that still works for protosses right?
Oov used to be unstoppable too until reach manned up and beat him. Just give it time and someone will step up their game and do it with something marginally smarter than using DAs. Maps changing always helps too.
of course the idea of having >200 army to beat a 200/200 terran ground army makes sense, but if flash is 200/200 why would he not attack
but if you try getting terran before both players are 200/200, obviously you're gonna lose since your toss army will have less units than his terran army, and your terran units aren't high-tech enough to be worth anything until siege tech
The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
Protoss mostly suck ass at the moment, but remember that a couple of season ago zergs, except Jaedong, were not winning a single game.
If the game really got unbalanced, which I don't believe is true bit can be possible expect the next map pool to be protoss favoured; Zerg were losing when the map pool was a nightmare for bot ZvP and ZvT.
On May 13 2010 03:42 Trap wrote: I don't know why so many protoss feel they need to switch to lategame carriers while Flash is sitting on 2+ mining bases. In many recent games vs like Kal or Pure, Flash's opponent had somewhat of an advantage in terms of bases and army, then they threw away their army in favor of carriers, but Flash was quickly able to take out their expoes before enough carriers were made. The kid's too good at timings vs carriers. Maybe instead better use of stasis and storm to stop Flash from taking a 4th, or some 2 base attack after a 12 nexus because Flash has shown he likes to play greedy and take a fast 3rd in response to 12 nex.
Isn't this how Much beat Flash in the 2008 WCG? Epic storms and stasis in conjunction with being an expansion whore? I'm pretty sure Much had 8-10k in that game where flash was barely in 4 digits for most of the game. Stasis tanks and even stasis vessels if you have to and storm everything you see. The trick is to never let the terran hit 200/200. You do this by out macroing him (hard task but not impossible). When you watch this game, even though Much takes huge losses with each attack, he is successful for three reasons:
1. Being able to replenish his army so fast due to gateways/economy. 2. Stopping flash from reaching 200/200. 3. Making sure you always have more expansions than him.
On May 13 2010 03:35 antrax wrote: For those who say that this is impossible, being time the main problem, let's look some numbers :
Format (Time,Min,Gas)
Tank path after stolen SCV:
- CC (120,400,0) - Barrack (80,150,0) - Fact (80,250,100) - Addon (40,50,50) - Siege (80,150,150) Optional because Mind Control - Tank (50,150,100) Time absorved by Siege upgrade time
Cost of first operational tank
Total (400,1150,400)
Carrier path considering Arbiter path already taken
- Fleet Beacon (60,300,200) - Inter Capacity (100,100,100) Time Absorved by Carrier building time - Carrier (140,350,250) - Interceptor (20,25,0) - 8xInterceptors (160,200,0)
Cost of first operational Carrier
Total (360, 950, 550)
Well, at least in theory this is not such bad thing. Have in mind that 1 Carrier represents more or less the cost of 3 tanks (min,gas) but 1 Carrier takes twice the time. People who blindly say no should give it a try and then come back to talk, in 2002-04 people said FE PvZ was nonsense and now it is standard ... I'm just saying let's see what happens.
Although I don't like the idea of MC'ing a SCV using a Shuttle, would it be better to make a recall (DA included) trying to kill an expo and then MC'ing one of those annoying SCV's repairing the CC and finally recall back.
One other thing, why pros don't use DA anyway to fight off those damn Vessels?
Actually gas is a huge factor, why would you waste a recall in getting an scv when you can recall an army into his base and create havoc? You would have to tech up to arbiters in the first place and have enough gas and unit count to get a single scv when your 200/200 unit count still gets beat by a terran's 200/200. You're gas hungry enough with templars and arbiters or carriers to be making tanks.
I think MC could work, but instead of trying to get an SCV from an expo, just get one that's building a turret somewhere random in the middle.
Failing that, get several, maybe 5-8 DAs, and have your main army consist of zealots and high templar with DA and arbiter support. Then, you can use storm to create clumps of tanks (force the tanks to "dodge" into a clump) and then stasis them. Then you could MC half of the rest of the tanks, then hallucinate the DAs with your excess templar to retreat so they don't die, rinse, repeat.
I really think MC should be used more, but not to get tanks, unless protoss can somehow learn to turtle harder than terrans are currently. If protoss could turtle harder than terran and also find a way to get workers from the other races, then it would dominate all of the matchups, because most of the games would end with protoss having a larger army (PTvT in this case, not TvT).
Basically, forget recall and focus on destroying as much of the terran army as possible while losing as little of your own army as possible. This is done by using MC, hallucinate, storm, and stasis all at once in the "huge" battle that determines the winner. After winning that battle, you might have some tanks left over from MC, and also you will have arbiters and mostly high templar, because your zealots would probably mostly die. Then morph the templar into Archons and kill off the bases with a small group of zeals for mine clearing and...
yeah, MC. But don't go down the tech tree, that's just a loss waiting to happen. I'd much rather see half of the terran army get MC'd, use that half to take out the other half, and then roll the expos with archons, storm, and zealots.
On May 13 2010 04:14 Nal_rAwr wrote: of course the idea of having >200 army to beat a 200/200 terran ground army makes sense, but if flash is 200/200 why would he not attack
but if you try getting terran before both players are 200/200, obviously you're gonna lose since your toss army will have less units than his terran army, and your terran units aren't high-tech enough to be worth anything until siege tech
What's really frustrating for P is that even if they max quicker than T and has more bases than T they're still not winning unless they can stop T from taking bases and acquiring a maxed army as well. Now you can't do either of those things against Flash. What P does now is simply acquiring a large bank of minerals and gas with many production facilities to replenish their army after losing engagement after engagement against a T army. Just have the option of being able to use the excess mineral and gas to exceed the 200 pop cap can change the whole feel of the PvT late game metagame as now T is one that needs to stop toss from acquiring a sufficient army to roll the 200 T army.
On May 13 2010 04:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
This.
I have no idea why some people in this thread act like current PvT becomes imbalanced in terran favor. I already quoted stats from proleague, where protoss are owning terran harder then terran zerg. Go look at OSL or MSL stats, they are also very close, one slighty favoring protoss, second terran.
You want to beat Flash? Play better than him, that's all you need to do.
I think Flash's dominance in PvT can also be explained by Stork and Bisu's current slump. Stork especially is the one to look to usually to see new innovative ways to break a T.
On May 13 2010 04:17 Biff The Understudy wrote: The way to beat Flash is to be better than him. Nobody is atm, so nobody is winning. That's it.
This.
I have no idea why some people in this thread act like current PvT becomes imbalanced in terran favor. I already quoted stats from proleague, where protoss are owning terran harder then terran zerg. Go look at OSL or MSL stats, they are also very close, one slighty favoring protoss, second terran.
You want to beat Flash? Play better than him, that's all you need to do.
You don't think late game pvt is favored for T? Late game with 3-3 ups is always where T wants the game to be, and Flash takes P's there. I'd say being able to MC Flash's scv's and making your own T army while still holding off his pushes with expertise in both P and T units is playing better than him.
My jaws is literary dropping from reading the posts from this thread.
Your example game is a poor choice. Kal had a major lead in the game but he made some critical mistake which lost him the game.
You should instead watch more of Flash's TvP and see the situation in the game where the protosses have their arbiters and the state of Flash's army. You also have to take account when Flash does his push. If you are rushing all these crazy techs, you won't have enough units to fight it back or not enough econ to win in the late game.
Like I said above, you can't use a game when the protoss has a big advantage and say that "this and this" could win the game.
Flash certainly isn't perfect, and often takes a lot of risks to seize control of the mid-game.
But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass.
Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also.
Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch.
On May 13 2010 05:25 Pliers wrote: Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch.
Except it is not
You have to realize its not TvP imbalanced
Flash is just playing really really good
Put any other T versus Kal or something I'm pretty sure Kal would win
I think that stealing an SCV is a good idea. By adding the Terran tech tree the Protoss player gets access to an additional 200 supply for a great army advantage rather than carriers; the time to make 1 carrier is actually longer than the time to make a command center! In the time it takes to make 8 interceptors you could already have finished factories...
I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again.
Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT...
Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long??
ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes...
Edit: yes I remembered too late that goliaths can't be maelstrom'd, thanks for everyone reminding me 100000x times. i'd be so deeply apologetic... if I really cared. point is that DAs are not the best way to kill Flash (if there even is a way).
Cannon ring around all bases. Large cannon flowerbeds on open ground. Great Chinese Walls of cannons. Preemptive cannons where terran wishes to expand. Offensive cannons in terran's base (bring probes with recalls). Decoy cannons to confuse terran about your motives. Memorial Dan O'Bannon cannons.
This will greatly reduce the effectiveness of vultures and goliaths without sucking supply or wasting gas needed for carriers, arbiters or templars.
If Terran is turtling on 4-5 bases, stealing an SCV --> tanks is perfectly reasonable- and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army. It is NOT a reasonable response to a 3-base Terran 200/200 push.
I tend to think Protoss have been relying too heavily on rushing carriers/arbiters instead of setting up a roaring economy and getting upgrades first. However, I would like to see more speed shuttle use.
On May 13 2010 05:25 mmp wrote: But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass.
Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also.
If Protoss switches to carriers after maxing out, without having already invested into their upgrades, they deserve the loss. That's just terrible decision making.
I'm not convinced Mind Control is a good choice, except to steal a worker, though. DA eats more supply and money than any unit Terran fields against Protoss. However, one DA to zap vessels certainly sounds worthwhile, and once you have unlimited funds you could certainly add mind control and +50 mana.
Bottom line, I don't think Protoss needs to employ new gimmicks... they just need to employ the old gimmicks better and without making really dumb decisions. (Recalling into a 3-base, defensive Terran... dropping templars in front of vultures... killing off half their army for nothing, just to free up food for a carrier switch... playing 0-0-0 fifteen minutes into the game... stacking arbiters for an EMP... engaging the Terran ball without flanking it first...)
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again.
Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT...
Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long??
ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes...
Ummm you cant maelstrom mech units... On topic. It's a nice idea but the game will probably end before a tank can come out.!
On May 13 2010 06:42 Severedevil wrote:and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army.
Never really took this into account, but I think it's a really good idea. Might as well keep mining with the Terran foodcount after you suicide probes for Protoss food.
Protoss are ALWAYS a a disadvantage when facing any 200 terran army, they have to rely on their multitasking and macroing to overcome this, just producing more units than terran considering protoss at this point of the game would had more bases and resources them its a good way to do this afer they pushed out.
btw mind control seems like a terrible idea, sure having a tank army to add to your own army sounds good, but the whole process of getting it its not very effective. flash would destroy you before that, keep it mind that terrans can max out in around 14 mins
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths.
On May 13 2010 05:25 Pliers wrote: Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch.
Well, try this strat vs a terran player in ICCUP (not a d- noob).
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again.
Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT...
Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long??
ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes...
Really nice points raised here. I think the carrier transition is bad because it take far too much psi and there is a long period of time of which they are useless; this is when protoss bases get rolled. Now compare with tanks which don't take that much longer (seriously) and don't take protoss psi so you'll still be able to fight with maxed P ground army and also be able to reinforce to P's maximum capabilities. The excess money can be used to make tanks which in turn provide great defence in keeping your bases alive.
The game I posted showed that evidently in the mid game money was not an issue for Kal as he kept replenishing his army to max and still able to plant down 6 stargates and make carriers simultaneously in the late game. About the upgrades, 0-0 tanks can still defend bases very well. Don't use them to fight until you have a significant amount or use them only to defend bases.
Fight fire with fire, if Flash can defend till max to roll over toss, toss can defend till >max and roll over Flash.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Because Arbiter energy is usually more valuable than 20 supply of Zeal/Dragoons when you're already at 200/200 supply. Although I do remember Bisu using these first 2 techniques to pretty decent effect on a game vs Flash a while back when he was still good (even though he lost in the end). The first technique is only really useful on weird maps with multiple paths where you can't really dictate map control that well.
Why recall speedlots onto tanks, when you can just freeze the tanks completely and save the lots to absorb other tank fire? I would like to see more of the 4th one though, but I think most of the time the arbiters die to turret fire right after pulling off the recall and/or you can't wait long enough to let an arbiter save up to 200 energy.
On May 13 2010 06:51 ilj.psa wrote: Protoss are ALWAYS a a disadvantage when facing any 200 terran army, they have to rely on their multitasking and macroing to overcome this, just producing more units than terran considering protoss at this point of the game would had more bases and resources them its a good way to do this afer they pushed out.
btw mind control seems like a terrible idea, sure having a tank army to add to your own army sounds good, but the whole process of getting it its not very effective. flash would destroy you before that, keep it mind that terrans can max out in around 14 mins
The process is not very effective at all, but neither is the carrier switch. It is however an option to get ahead in the late game ultimately.
On May 13 2010 05:25 Pliers wrote: Mods? I'm not trolling in this thread just proposing a feasible solution to the late game PvT metagame that is imo much better than the carrier switch.
Well, try this strat vs a terran player in ICCUP (not a d- noob).
I think its very hard to pull it off...
I'm not talking about me or you or some terran player on iccup.
On May 13 2010 04:47 hp.Shell wrote: Failing that, get several, maybe 5-8 DAs, and have your main army consist of zealots and high templar with DA and arbiter support. Then, you can use storm to create clumps of tanks (force the tanks to "dodge" into a clump) and then stasis them. Then you could MC half of the rest of the tanks, then hallucinate the DAs with your excess templar to retreat so they don't die, rinse, repeat.
Lol this paragraph HAS to be a joke.
5-8 DAs? main army of zealots and hts? storming to create clumps?
I know your allowed to theory-craft but cmon.
1.5-8 DAs costs 625/500 - 1000/800 thats A LOT OF MONEY for units that will die the second they gets in tank/vulture range without even a chance of casting MC.
2.A main army of zealots will be slaughtered by vults + mines
3.And when terrans get stormed, they don't clump to avoid more storm, common sense man lol
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Completely agree with this, I think most korean pro's use their arbiters rather poorly. One of the best examples would be EVER 2009 OSL finals Movie vs Flash, finals which Movie could have won.
Another thing to mention is the combination of arbiters + high templars and arbiters + reavers. Recalling these combinations is 100% more deadly though more than often I do not see them. If a player recalls to enemy main with shuttle + 2 reavers along and invests some apm to properly micro, it could kill so many units and clumped depots too omg!!
better strats against flash would be:- -12nexus -fast DTs lol -4 gate goons timing attack -reaver harrass -double shuttle harrass -mid/late game tech switch 2 carriers, with goon/ht support -a successful reccall, followed up a statis at ramp - 2 reccalls all-in lol
I would go: Fast DT rush/Fast reaver harass with fast shuttle-> Mass reaver with speed shuttles/ an electronic fart thing that is hidden in Flash's cpu making him very, very confused and it will cause him to be thrown off his game into a fart slump ^^.
On May 13 2010 06:28 Wings wrote: I'm sure people have said this before, but I'll say it again.
Problem 1. Flash wins not necessarily by his "hanbang" attack... but by methodically destroying your expansions. Kal always gets his hugeass carrier force and then Flash kills all the expos during the transition, leading to no money for interceptors. So, first problem with this DA theory is that Kal does NOT have the luxury of spending all those minerals at a crucial time, the 1st tank will take FAR too long to pop out (I saw the stats someone posted earlier above), by then Flash will have destroyed all the expos as usual, and also that money could have been used for ground forces to stall Flash while carrier tech is achieved. Let's say Kal HAD the minerals and HAD freaking forever to build Tanks. That would mean he's essentially in a position where he is far, far, far ahead of Flash; at Kal's current skill level, it would seem much more reasonable to kill Flash the normal way, with recalls/stasis/carriers/storm etc. I actually think storm is waay undervalued in late game PvT...
Problem 2. Upgrades. By then, Flash will have 3/3 upgrades vs 0/0 upgrades. I'm not sure whether you've fought in this sort of situation before, but if you have, you would know that this is utter RAPE. if Flash has a 200/200 tank/goliath army, your tanks are gonna be absolutely RAPED. If he has ONLY goliaths, then maybe you'll be good... but this is Flash. Do you think that he really won't notice Kal's CC & Factories for so freaking long??
ALTERNATIVE: I was considering the DA thing for one reason (NOT mind control); it would be interesting to try and use MAELSTROM on the clumped goliaths. Then Kal could kill huge numbers of goliaths while they just sat there. This would be really interesting to watch, because goliaths get really clumped up sometimes...
Ummm you cant maelstrom mech units... On topic. It's a nice idea but the game will probably end before a tank can come out.!
lol whoops. sry i completely forgot, i've only played terran for the past 4/5 years...
lol, as someone above said..this might work on flash for maybe one or two games then hed just say "no" and emp any DAs
plus...doing a succesfful DA drop into mind control scv without the scv or shuttle dying is a long shot against flash..especially with his reaction time, building placement, and the fact that its way late game.
Not to mention, the time itll take to build up a terran army...i highly doubt flash would let that happen really
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Completely agree with this, I think most korean pro's use their arbiters rather poorly. One of the best examples would be EVER 2009 OSL finals Movie vs Fantasy, finals which Movie could have won.
Another thing to mention is the combination of arbiters + high templars and arbiters + reavers. Recalling these combinations is 100% more deadly though more than often I do not see them. If a player recalls to enemy main with shuttle + 2 reavers along and invests some apm to properly micro, it could kill so many units and clumped depots too omg!!
Crap I missed those finals, who won?
On a serious note I assume ur talking about Flash, and I have no idea what you mean when you think Movie could have won. (Wasn't his vT not-so-hot at that point?)
But with ur point about the reavers, I agree that microing reavers inside the enemy base WITH goons/zeal support would be powerful, but I'm guessing there's some downside to it which is the main reason that progamers don't focus on that much. I'm guessing it's because with all the sieged tanks/mines/turrets in the base the reavers become much less effective - even with proper micro.
On May 13 2010 09:05 HeadhunteR wrote: the real answer THE STOVE..
Lol
EDIT: Hey Wings, goliaths CANNOT be maelstromed. It's only for biological units
On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote: Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. Flash wins OSL
Next season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players and reaches finals 2. Flash loses to nal_rA. Games will probably involve nal_rA building tanks
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
There, I combined your post with the OP to make a post about truth
If Dark Archon + mind control could work on flash, then he wouldn't be owning tosses w/ his TvP right now.
It's hard to imagine flash losing right now, cause his TvP is just too good. I would suggest high templar against him, but he can just snipe them before storm is even casted (movie vs flash game 2 EVER OSL 2009). I'm really looking forward to a protoss beating Flash in a bo5, or even a bo3. =\
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
Completely agree with this, I think most korean pro's use their arbiters rather poorly. One of the best examples would be EVER 2009 OSL finals Movie vs Fantasy, finals which Movie could have won.
Another thing to mention is the combination of arbiters + high templars and arbiters + reavers. Recalling these combinations is 100% more deadly though more than often I do not see them. If a player recalls to enemy main with shuttle + 2 reavers along and invests some apm to properly micro, it could kill so many units and clumped depots too omg!!
Hahaha what when?
Not only has Fantasy like never won a finals but uh...what? lol
macro, storm, stasis, macro, storm, stasis, macro, recall. Until you're dripping with sweat like Much was. Honestly, 1a2a is the easy part, it's everything in between which defines a good protoss player.
I think this idea actually sounds promising. It's impossible to guard every expansion with Sci.Vessels to prevent a DA from Mind Controlling even 1 SCV.
And this would allow an unlimited resource Protoss to take out a 3/3 200 supply Terran army.
If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army.
On May 13 2010 10:30 dhe95 wrote: If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army.
Why are you making it seem like I'm trying to get toss to play tvt with Flash? The point is not to switch to T units all together but only use seige tanks to compliment the P army with excess minerals and gas. Just 10 seige tanks can greatly improve P's chance because P gains positional advantage and is able to secure bases. You keep and reinforce your maxed P ground army no matter what and whatever more you have make tanks. simple.
Wow, it totally never occurred to me how helpful mind controlling could be for worker production alone. Literally no extra investment whatsoever(other than buying mind control itself). Going to expand anyways? Build a command center instead of a nexus. The point is saving your supply for a force as opposed to probes. An extra 20-30 psi of anything would make a huge difference in a 200/200 battle. Getting anything else in the terran tech tree just isn't worth the time investment.
On May 13 2010 10:36 LunarDestiny wrote: People come up with this kind of stuff when they play too much UMS or too much BGH.
Nope hardly play either. You've never maxed in a game and had money left over? You must be a z player that doesn't undertand pvt
this strat will only work if the protoss if very ahead of terran, like 6 base protoss to 2 base terran
i remember there was this game by non pros where the protoss did this strategy when he was ahead, but the terran made a comeback and protoss lost the game in the end
I don't like how so many people are dismissing this idea, based on terrible theorycrafting... It's like people are so ingrained into current trends that if progamers aren't doing it, it isn't worth trying.
I'm sure if someone suggested blinding observers with medics on match point as a viable strat everyone would be shitting all over the guy.
On May 13 2010 10:46 JDforever wrote: Protoss need a new hero!
Or an old hero, like Reach or Nal_rA coming back to KTF
About op : I think the best strat, especially in greedy game like during the Flash vs Pure serie, is to double recall, just before the terran has too many vessels. If you have 1 arb with full mana, and another with 150, you can double recall + stasis ramp.. gg
On May 13 2010 10:56 jiabung wrote: I don't like how so many people are dismissing this idea, based on terrible theorycrafting... It's like people are so ingrained into current trends that if progamers aren't doing it, it isn't worth trying.
I'm sure if someone suggested blinding observers with medics on match point as a viable strat everyone would be shitting all over the guy.
Thank you.
I need a TL forum veteran to endorse this thread ever so slightly for it be taken seriously. I get the whole 'forum cred' thing but it's ridiculous how many people decide to post before reading through the thread.
Using Medic's blind ability is not a super uncommon thing. First, getting medic and researching the blind ability is very easy and is in the terran's tech path. A medic cost 50/25, very cheap. It's target is the observer which is cost 25 minerals and more importantly, the 75 gas. The blind and wraith combo is a choice that the terran can use if the protoss goes carriers.
In your case, the dark archon is not a cheap units. It requires 2 dt: combination of 250/200. That is a lot. Then you have to drop 2 dark archon in to your opponent's base, then use the ever so precious energy on the arbiter for recall. A shuttle and 100 energy on the arbiter wasted. AND then you have to rebuild the terran tech tree... the cost of the buildings, supply depots, and tanks. That is a ton of money.
Think what you can with those wasted money. A LOT. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the standard protoss strategy: build tons of gateways and do series of chain attacks. Even though Flash is a marco beast, but terran is always a terran. It takes a while for terrans to rebuild their army. If the protoss can keep up with the pressure, the terran can't hold for long.
On May 13 2010 06:42 Severedevil wrote: If Terran is turtling on 4-5 bases, stealing an SCV --> tanks is perfectly reasonable- and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army. It is NOT a reasonable response to a 3-base Terran 200/200 push.
I tend to think Protoss have been relying too heavily on rushing carriers/arbiters instead of setting up a roaring economy and getting upgrades first. However, I would like to see more speed shuttle use.
On May 13 2010 05:25 mmp wrote: But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass.
Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also.
If Protoss switches to carriers after maxing out, without having already invested into their upgrades, they deserve the loss. That's just terrible decision making.
I'm not convinced Mind Control is a good choice, except to steal a worker, though. DA eats more supply and money than any unit Terran fields against Protoss. However, one DA to zap vessels certainly sounds worthwhile, and once you have unlimited funds you could certainly add mind control and +50 mana.
Bottom line, I don't think Protoss needs to employ new gimmicks... they just need to employ the old gimmicks better and without making really dumb decisions. (Recalling into a 3-base, defensive Terran... dropping templars in front of vultures... killing off half their army for nothing, just to free up food for a carrier switch... playing 0-0-0 fifteen minutes into the game... stacking arbiters for an EMP... engaging the Terran ball without flanking it first...)
I agree that Protoss doesn't need any new tricks to win versus Terran. *cough cough* imba! :p
But I think carriers are "gimmicky" in the sense that (1) you need a ton of resources (2) you need a lategame advantage to survive long enough (3) the longer they are unscouted the more potent (4) there is a large window of opportunity before you reach critical mass (5) you can't transition out of a mass carriers strat.
With this in mind, yeah you could win just from better arbiter usage and conventional tactics - but if you have the ability to get away with mass carriers in a game, what else could you have gotten away with? Hell, if Terran had bank the way toss does he could mass battlecruisers, nukes, whatever the hell he wants - and he can justify its strategic value later.
Protoss typically have strong map control in the late game and a huge bank of resources, so they can either spend it on more arbiters and more zealot/goon/templar - but they also have ample resources to mix in whatever else they may need. I think dark archons are a good addition to this unit composition.
On May 13 2010 11:19 LunarDestiny wrote: Using Medic's blind ability is not a super uncommon thing. First, getting medic and researching the blind ability is very easy and is in the terran's tech path. A medic cost 50/25, very cheap. It's target is the observer which is cost 25 minerals and more importantly, the 75 gas. The blind and wraith combo is a choice that the terran can use if the protoss goes carriers.
In your case, the dark archon is not a cheap units. It requires 2 dt: combination of 250/200. That is a lot. Then you have to drop 2 dark archon in to your opponent's base, then use the ever so precious energy on the arbiter for recall. A shuttle and 100 energy on the arbiter wasted. AND then you have to rebuild the terran tech tree... the cost of the buildings, supply depots, and tanks. That is a ton of money.
Think what you can with those wasted money. A LOT. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the standard protoss strategy: build tons of gateways and do series of chain attacks. Even though Flash is a marco beast, but terran is always a terran. It takes a while for terrans to rebuild their army. If the protoss can keep up with the pressure, the terran can't hold for long.
idk. i think you're overexaggerating the cost here. this is late game we're talking about, and at this point in the game, it shouldn't be that much more of an investment. assuming you're at or near 200/200, the income should start surplusing, and you can only do so much with it. also, we're not talking about 400 food army here. just enough tanks to be able to secure a position on the terran. plus, you don't have to worry about getting scvs and all that, since you're already getting income from probes, which brings out the tanks a lot quicker.
against flash, this would obviously be a different story, since it's extremely hard to secure a base against him, but as a strategy itself when you find yourself stuck in lategame, it's not that impossible to pull off.
oh, and in regards to your last statement, that's a terrible argument and mindset. terran is always a terran? what the fuck?
this is actually quite good in PvT i, D level toss/terran, beat a B- terran with my own BO shuttle with reaver and 2 zealots used to mess with siege tanks, and bring in some goons when its safe to walk in and break
actually if you got bonjwa control like nal_ra or nony or me, reaver+shuttle+2zeal can kill like 5 siege tanks and SCV's depending on positioning and micro
My last statement is that Flash is a terran player. He can is still bind by the weakness of terran: the slow replacement of the army. If the protoss have 20+ unstop, pumping gateways. The terran ball would ultimately falls.
On May 13 2010 11:50 LunarDestiny wrote: My last statement is that Flash is a terran player. He can is still bind by the weakness of terran: the slow replacement of the army. If the protoss have 20+ unstop, pumping gateways. The terran ball would ultimately falls.
You're underestimating Flash and late game terran... Which toss player doesn't have 20+ gatesways in late game? Heck, by late game Flash will have 20 factories. Have you seen the Flash vs Pure supply graphs? P can't rely on the fact that they can replenish faster when T suffers minor losses and is able to max again immediately as well. Oh they'll be seiged up in your natural too by the time you new units come out.
On May 13 2010 12:07 29 fps wrote: hallucination sounds like a more reasonable alternative. hallucination recall.
What would that accomplish? Or are you just trolling... Flash defends recalls so well it's like feeding him units, or even a single emp... Once he cleans up the recall it's time to push and P has no storm =/
On May 13 2010 11:47 Nal_rAwr wrote: man Nal_rA did it with 1base reaver/shuttle
this is actually quite good in PvT i, D level toss/terran, beat a B- terran with my own BO shuttle with reaver and 2 zealots used to mess with siege tanks, and bring in some goons when its safe to walk in and break
actually if you got bonjwa control like nal_ra or nony or me, reaver+shuttle+2zeal can kill like 5 siege tanks and SCV's depending on positioning and micro
On May 13 2010 10:36 LunarDestiny wrote: People come up with this kind of stuff when they play too much UMS or too much BGH.
Nope hardly play either. You've never maxed in a game and had money left over? You must be a z player that doesn't undertand pvt
this strat will only work if the protoss if very ahead of terran, like 6 base protoss to 2 base terran
i remember there was this game by non pros where the protoss did this strategy when he was ahead, but the terran made a comeback and protoss lost the game in the end
On May 13 2010 06:42 Severedevil wrote: If Terran is turtling on 4-5 bases, stealing an SCV --> tanks is perfectly reasonable- and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army. It is NOT a reasonable response to a 3-base Terran 200/200 push.
I tend to think Protoss have been relying too heavily on rushing carriers/arbiters instead of setting up a roaring economy and getting upgrades first. However, I would like to see more speed shuttle use.
On May 13 2010 05:25 mmp wrote: But I think the OP has a good point, and that is that the sheer amount of resources Protoss acquire in a standard macro game is astonishing - and it all gets dumped into carriers which may or may not win the game, but it's a very brute force way to end things, especially when Terran expects a carrier switch and has an upgrade advantage. It certainly takes foresight to get the tech going early and with air upgrades. Furthermore the carriers won't save you until all of the tech is complete and you have a critical mass.
Why not look into other tech options if there is nothing more expensive or time-consuming than carriers? Mind-controlling combat units is a very efficient way to look at late-game attrition, but if you wanted to make your own tank army on the side, that would be pretty strong also.
If Protoss switches to carriers after maxing out, without having already invested into their upgrades, they deserve the loss. That's just terrible decision making.
I'm not convinced Mind Control is a good choice, except to steal a worker, though. DA eats more supply and money than any unit Terran fields against Protoss. However, one DA to zap vessels certainly sounds worthwhile, and once you have unlimited funds you could certainly add mind control and +50 mana.
Bottom line, I don't think Protoss needs to employ new gimmicks... they just need to employ the old gimmicks better and without making really dumb decisions. (Recalling into a 3-base, defensive Terran... dropping templars in front of vultures... killing off half their army for nothing, just to free up food for a carrier switch... playing 0-0-0 fifteen minutes into the game... stacking arbiters for an EMP... engaging the Terran ball without flanking it first...)
I agree that Protoss doesn't need any new tricks to win versus Terran. *cough cough* imba! :p
But I think carriers are "gimmicky" in the sense that (1) you need a ton of resources (2) you need a lategame advantage to survive long enough (3) the longer they are unscouted the more potent (4) there is a large window of opportunity before you reach critical mass (5) you can't transition out of a mass carriers strat.
The strategy of building a jillion stargates and then six or so carriers all at once, is always a bad one (though of course if you're super far ahead it's the easiest way to just win). Before you max, you can't afford the resources; after you max, you can't afford the supply. Gradually adding carriers off two or three stargates is a lot more reasonable, at any stage of the game (2-5 bases). Goon/Carrier, supported by HT and/or DT, is a strong composition.
I prefer to stick with goon/obs/shuttle/zealot until I have a ton of bases, because teching arbiters/carriers takes longer and costs more than claiming additional expansions, opening up an easy window for Terran to attack or expand... but clearly a lot of Protoss don't share my opinion. Delaying arbiters does result in less mana for stasis, which is unfortunate once Terran hits 200/200.
I like the DA --> steal SCV technique because it plays into that safe style of never making big transitions, and just expanding a lot and inching up the tech tree when it's convenient.
Hallucinate speed zealots or something, and then recall those hallucinated units + a mana-charged arbiter into a terran base. Then, the hallucinated zealots will eat the mines and a real recall can bring in the troops. You'll probably lose an arbiter but its better than losing all your troops AND the arbiter.
how about recalling carriers and then recall carriers back? also corsair's disruption web is underused against terran ball.. i think corsair can kill vessels while making the terran ball ineffective. needed like 6 corsairs maybe? to put off 12 web or something
IF Protoss can pull this off, recalling sieged tanks synchronized with zealots to drag mines and draw tank fire is a good way of breaking a tank line.. yum yum
I dont think you need to sneak the scv out. I think if you did manage to get one, it would be better not to hide it while it remained safe. This way flash would realize, i cant let him mass tanks, so i cant just turtle. Once he realizes he has to attack and push out or he will be facing a 400 vs 200 army he would be prone to flanks and other of the sorts instead of just 1a2a3a4a5a into turtle terran
I posted something once upon a time about how I think TvP is poorly balanced, but is still, mostly, balanced. What I mean by that is to say that balance in TvP is dependent on too few factors to make it the robust matchup that both ZvP and ZvT are. Again, I'm not saying it is unbalanced, but balanced poorly.
Specifically, I kind of feel that regardless of strategies chosen most TvPs (that last till the midgame at least) come down to a Protoss player attempting to capitalize on a Terran misstep somewhere along the way. If the Terran pushes out too fast, flank and crush him, if he has sloppy positioning flank and crush him, if he neglects anti air, zealot drop and/or mass stasis him and crush him, if he doesn't defend his base well enough, recall and win.
Conversely, a terran who reacts well to everything the Protoss can throw at him is exceedingly hard to beat. A terran who doesn't make any real mistakes is nigh impossible to beat. I feel like Flash is proving this point. A good Protoss is one who will bide his time, wait for an opening and pounce at just the right moment. But what if that opening never comes? What if there is no right moment, because you are playing Flash and Flash's army is ALWAYS well positioned, and is ALWAYS right where it needs to be.
Its hard playing TvP as Terran because you can play a great game, do 99 out of 100 things correct, yet watch it all end in destruction because you sieged up at the wrong time and lost your army in a heartbeat. Its hard playing as Protoss because you just feel helpless when the terran doesn't give you the opening you've worked so hard to recognize and you realize its only a matter of time before the Terran Ball gets maxed and there won't be much you can do to stop it.
On May 13 2010 15:26 KingofHearts wrote: how about recalling carriers and then recall carriers back? also corsair's disruption web is underused against terran ball.. i think corsair can kill vessels while making the terran ball ineffective. needed like 6 corsairs maybe? to put off 12 web or something
Doesn't recalling carriers make the interceptors that were out while recalled fly back over the minimap? I remember this being the case for some recent TvP I saw.
On May 13 2010 15:26 KingofHearts wrote: how about recalling carriers and then recall carriers back? also corsair's disruption web is underused against terran ball.. i think corsair can kill vessels while making the terran ball ineffective. needed like 6 corsairs maybe? to put off 12 web or something
Doesn't recalling carriers make the interceptors that were out while recalled fly back over the minimap? I remember this being the case for some recent TvP I saw.
Can't happen, it's much harder to rely on a crazy strategy just to win, IMO they should play much more greedy to force flash out and have a timing counter so then if they succeed flash will be too far to come back. OR - - some really creative arb recall strat (sort of like what Kal was trying to do on fighting) but keep their bases^^
On May 13 2010 16:42 tomstrife wrote: The only Protoss Flash doesn't roll all the time is Bisu.
And that is only because he can't make it past the qualifiers for the OSL and MSL .
stork, jangbi, and best have had success at times. Free has a decent chance - he has been really solid, and a good solid toss that has a slight unexpected element to their gameplay (unexpected, solid timing for carriers with a solid ground force), can beat flash.
i think it's a good idea and should be used when flash forces a "divide the map" scenario, which is what he does when he's behind. a situation like flash vs movie in osl finals game 1 where movie was on 6 bases to flash's 4 is a good example of when toss could use this
so... if you can't beat flash in a PvT, what makes you think it would work better for you to switch to another race you don't play? I'm not really a follower of flash, but I would think his TvT is better than some Protoss players.
Or is there a certain army composition I'm missing?
Think if we talk about hallucinations then P should consider a carrier trap. Just build 1 carrier and make some hallucinations then go all in with yourProtoss ground army and kill most of the terran units. The next terran ball will be mostly goliath so P can stick to ground units and storms and crush him hard.
On May 13 2010 17:32 slowmanrunning wrote: so... if you can't beat flash in a PvT, what makes you think it would work better for you to switch to another race you don't play? I'm not really a follower of flash, but I would think his TvT is better than some Protoss players.
Or is there a certain army composition I'm missing?
tank/recall is awesome carrier tank against goliaths dmatrix on arbitors/emp on terran vessels
On May 13 2010 17:42 HTX wrote: Think if we talk about hallucinations then P should consider a carrier trap. Just build 1 carrier and make some hallucinations then go all in with yourProtoss ground army and kill most of the terran units. The next terran ball will be mostly goliath so P can stick to ground units and storms and crush him hard.
On May 13 2010 18:31 InFdude wrote: I was also thinking about the OPs idea after watching a rep posted here . Some guy P who was obviously better than the T stole an SCV and made tanks .He was messing around alot so he could have lost but IMO in the end T couldnt do shit against recalling clumped siege tanks .When you recall them they will fire first because T won't be able to see them and if T somehow manages to get close to you you can just recall them again 5 meters away and they will fire first again and kill everything in sight.
protoss have arbiters and recall researched
terran must be stupid do not make goalith and turrets
On May 13 2010 18:31 InFdude wrote: I was also thinking about the OPs idea after watching a rep posted here . Some guy P who was obviously better than the T stole an SCV and made tanks .He was messing around alot so he could have lost but IMO in the end T couldnt do shit against recalling clumped siege tanks .When you recall them they will fire first because T won't be able to see them and if T somehow manages to get close to you you can just recall them again 5 meters away and they will fire first again and kill everything in sight.
protoss have arbiters and recall researched
terran must be stupid do not make goalith and turrets
also, after MCing scvs and start building, by mind controlling an extra vulture and a tank means the protoss can get free vulture speed, mines and tank siege upgrades
When Flash hits 200/200 Toss will have his maxed ground army as well and is able to keep reinforcing his P ground army to fight terran. The idea is not to rely on T tech to beat Flash, it's to use excess money P has while maxed out to build a complimentary army of only siege tanks. Stop it with the TvT crap that's not what this suggests at all.
On May 14 2010 00:44 Pliers wrote: When Flash hits 200/200 Toss will have his maxed ground army as well and is able to keep reinforcing his P ground army to fight terran. The idea is not to rely on T tech to beat Flash, it's to use excess money P has while maxed out to build a complimentary army of only siege tanks. Stop it with the TvT crap that's not what this suggests at all.
Flash doesn't move out when he hits 200/200. He timing pushes. And Protoss does not have excess money while maxed out against Flash like when they are against other Terrans, since he overruns their expansions.
On May 14 2010 00:44 Pliers wrote: When Flash hits 200/200 Toss will have his maxed ground army as well and is able to keep reinforcing his P ground army to fight terran. The idea is not to rely on T tech to beat Flash, it's to use excess money P has while maxed out to build a complimentary army of only siege tanks. Stop it with the TvT crap that's not what this suggests at all.
Flash doesn't move out when he hits 200/200. He timing pushes. And Protoss does not have excess money while maxed out against Flash like when they are against other Terrans, since he overruns their expansions.
Yep, so Toss still needs to fight him normally in the early to mid game. When Toss survives till late can and has enough money for carrier switch, then the DA's can be employed. (research MC beforehand if going for this strat in the long term)
On May 14 2010 00:44 Pliers wrote: When Flash hits 200/200 Toss will have his maxed ground army as well and is able to keep reinforcing his P ground army to fight terran. The idea is not to rely on T tech to beat Flash, it's to use excess money P has while maxed out to build a complimentary army of only siege tanks. Stop it with the TvT crap that's not what this suggests at all.
Flash doesn't move out when he hits 200/200. He timing pushes. And Protoss does not have excess money while maxed out against Flash like when they are against other Terrans, since he overruns their expansions.
Yep, so Toss still needs to fight him normally in the early to mid game. When Toss survives till late can and has enough money for carrier switch, then the DA's can be employed. (research MC beforehand if going for this strat in the long term)
The only way to beat a terran in PvT is to make full effect of any error a terran makes (mines, unit postioning, timings). Protoss cannot beat a terran that refuses to make errors.
Seriously, Flash is go(o)d and everything, but its not like anyone else is stepping up to perform. Micro and macro is still very much lacking by protoss, and zerg players for that matter, as well as game sense. Im sure that a protoss player that trains more and gets out of his mind the oh dawd im playing flash attitude could be troublesome, at the very least, for the guy.
I can't believe that some people are taking this stupid strategy seriously, the viability of using MC to get more population/better composition has been discussed before. At the pro level it is stupid to rely on something that is this unreliable. MCing a SCV and getting it out alive from enemy territory, and then watching over 2 races is just insanely hard. Unless you have a reliable way for sneaking a SCV out, the chances of pulling this off is ridiculously slime.
Against Flash you will be hard pressed to match his insane multitasking and APM already, you will lose trying too much time spent trying to get MC quickly and getting SCVs out alive, or fall behind trying to manage two race's worth of supply count/macro. Obviously recalls to get SCVs out will be difficult as well, since arbiters are always expected in TvP. This is more "gimmicky" that practicing a well crafted cheese/all-in strategy, which would be more reliable and actually worth the practice time.
A lot of flash's win are based on exploiting opponent's mistakes since he is able to consistently make the least amount of mistake compared to his opponent, he is able to come out ahead every time.
On May 14 2010 02:00 bubblegumbo wrote: I can't believe that some people are taking this stupid strategy seriously, the viability of using MC to get more population/better composition has been discussed before. At the pro level it is stupid to rely on something that is this unreliable. MCing a SCV and getting it out alive from enemy territory, and then watching over 2 races is just insanely hard. Unless you have a reliable way for sneaking a SCV out, the chances of pulling this off is ridiculously slime.
Against Flash you will be hard pressed to match his insane multitasking and APM already, you will lose trying too much time spent trying to get MC quickly and getting SCVs out alive, or fall behind trying to manage two race's worth of supply count/macro. Obviously recalls to get SCVs out will be difficult as well, since arbiters are always expected in TvP. This is more "gimmicky" that practicing a well crafted cheese/all-in strategy, which would be more reliable and actually worth the practice time.
I mentioned before that getting the scv will be the hard part. It's not a reliable pvt strategy for sure but it's an option in the late game that can be taken advantage of if T does not watch his scv's well. Why not apply a strategy (although it sounds crazy) that has potential to put P ahead when P is deadlocked on bases with T anyway. Also T wont even see the arb if you're recalling out the scvs so not sure what you meant there.
On May 14 2010 02:00 bubblegumbo wrote:MCing a SCV and getting it out alive from enemy territory, and then watching over 2 races is just insanely hard. Unless you have a reliable way for sneaking a SCV out, the chances of pulling this off is ridiculously slime.
You can always recall a Dark Archon (immune to mines!) into his base, then recall the mind controlled scv back to your base :-p
Someone said it before in this thread, too lazy to go back to quote: Flash is winning because he's a better player, not because he's terran.
He was asked only a week ago this question: Do you ever play in a team melee to practice? (One player doing all the eco/one player doing all the unit control)
Flash's answer? No. It's impossible to win, and I rather not practice that way only to lose my confidence.
That can be implied as in: Yes, you can beat Flash as long as you macro/micro better than Flash. Not because youre terran, or zerg, or protoss. When you're better than Flash, you'll beat Flash. Simple as that.
I think toss in general needs to toss in some 2base "bulldog" play into the equation in between their 12nexuses. Flash oftens seems to get his third up regardless of seeing protoss taking a third or not lately... But he's scouting really well with vultures so I'm not sure it'll work...
On May 14 2010 03:16 EntertainMe wrote: He was asked only a week ago this question: Do you ever play in a team melee to practice? (One player doing all the eco/one player doing all the unit control)
Flash's answer? No. It's impossible to win, and I rather not practice that way only to lose my confidence.
On May 14 2010 03:18 StylishVODs wrote: I think toss in general needs to toss in some 2base "bulldog" play into the equation in between their 12nexuses. Flash oftens seems to get his third up regardless of seeing protoss taking a third or not lately... But he's scouting really well with vultures so I'm not sure it'll work...
yeah, that's what makes it much harder. flash's scouting and game sense are best of the best so he reads what you are doing exactly and adapts accordingly. lol i cant believe theres actually a discussion going on about using mind control vs flash. just no
I did read some of your posts and i agree about the TIMED caltulated answers in 20 minuts Pro Game it makes no sense to speack about mind controll scvs, the maps are not big game hunters (endless minerals in 1 base), the players are not computers so forget it. But you can use mind controll to defend in most attack senarios you see a large number of vultures, goliaths, mines (they do even while the attack) to block the way of your zelots to the large numer of the siege behind in there is possible with some clicks (mind controll) and their siege can do splash damage to terran forces. In many maps your base is in high ground and the terran can't see a Red Archon even is in the edge near to his forces there is a good place that an attact like than can be possible with most chanses of success (beware 2-3 siege can blow you archon you will see the Red Ashes) Hallucinations can help you to move in a flat gourd to make possibe such an attack but with less chances of success and only one shot most of the times run back fast the other player will be pissed (see alote of his forces to dissapear by his own tanks) and will go after your Red Archon for sure.
But you will be mutch more better player if you know the build TIME all of your units, buildings and their cost, you see your minerals and you guss and you know i can build x goons y zelots in that time. It will very helpfull also to know how mutch time will take a Prob,Shuttle,Goon to go from one corner to the other (+-1 sec error) there for you can estimate "what units can i build in that time?". In the middle game will not make a mutch of a difference this knowlege but in a rass the timed calculted attack always wins. I gave a high quality information how you can create a Time Brake Window in a vulture, siege russ the problem is free din't use from the very beggin to produce the units that feet in this window probably he can't calculate fast "in this time what units can i have ready?" is a MUST. You can go for an 'early' Scout, 275min 125gass, 80 build time problem? Don't fix a second gateway or a 2nd nexus soon to do it faster, the goons upgrate can wait in order to 'force' him to do early Armory + Engineering, he can't chase the Scout with marines! (also 2-3 dark templars in diffent sides of the map can 'force' it) If you know the build time and the cost you may creat units that feet in that TIME you just won. You can use that example to creat beautifull TIMED problems from the beggin breaking a russ master plan. With some SHIFT + Clicks Free could enlarge the window. That was this is the best you can do you kidding me?
A bonus tip: I see to try to attack with alote of goons an expantion and the siege push you back pull them back 1 shuttle can drop a probe in the minerals gathering place the siege will fire at the first visible target will kill 1 probe and some terrans scvs with 3 probe drops (one after another) a siege can kill all the scvs for you, please bring more siege to protect and the other expansions (hehehe), you done from this expansion the Objective was to create a TIME to build 12-18 scvs problem go to the next one. 1 Corsair with Disruption Web upgrated can deactivate 2 Missile Turret, bankers for you, terran finaly need 3 missle tarrent near his minerals to stop a drop with a shuttle can be really helpfull.
An Arbiter can help you move to the next one faster and what i don't understund is why don't you using like that? The major problem of anyone is to relocate his units from one place to another and to assebly all his forces back to 1 place for a major push but it used for a suicide missions to kill the other players scvs (see the bonus above) you can make a fake attack to one expansion to pull back an Arbiter near to the next expansion can relocate (recall) your units faster. 2 arbiters to another location can assebly all the forces together for a major push. No other race has that capability to deploy the forces all over the map and to assebly them all 1 location really fast that gives a real advandage to Protoss in every case senario.
The Problem is any pro player playing with Flash is angst to keep up not beeing one click behind, may loose the game, need to build alote of units couse he can beat them with less, the maps don't have alote of minerals anyway, the use of these technologies need more hot keys (this is a real problem alt 1,2,3,4 is more easy the alt 5 is kind of a problem mostly the use the spacebar) and clicks and finaly may never see them to be used, there is not enough time anyway. Another think i like to add is i understund your agony it was mistake of me that i said these thinks about a MVP that won Flash and to expose him like that But i was pissed with some other fans that were saying about flash terrible things and his gameplay is always to nice. I mean sorry i must controll my nerbs. The truth is nobady will blame you if you loose, nobady will remember how bad you loose but if you win anybody will remeber it so you have nothing to loose really, Just go for it.
Bonus Tip 2: I need 3 Reavers fast cost 600minerals 300 gass Time 1.80 secs gass move the 2nd command center back (400 minerals) move the Singularity Charge back (150 minerals +150 gass) Ground Armor can wait also (100 minerals+ 100 guss) Ground Weapons can wait (100 minerals + 100 guss) calculations: 400 + 150 + 100 = 650 minerals gass 350 result (look mom no upgrates). You have 3 reavers in 1 minute and 80 sec. A zerg Hydralisk russ will turn into tragedy really fast and no casualties, you must 'hide' the reavers, not to fire, untill Hydralisk form a line to fire for sure resolts don't sent any zeolts will be killed from the Reavers (a line with goons the reavers behind one the left one in the middle and one the right can slow move untill to find their first target eatch attack button to move and click) else he will run back and no tragedy. The zerg player will 'forced' to make upgrade Lurkers fast you also won TIME & 50 minerals + 50 gass advandage for a next goon. How mutch time does it gets for a Shuttle to get in enemys base? How TIME does the Enemy (zerg) do have to rebuild the army of Hydralisks lost in the Tragedy? Does the Zerg has the minerals to rebuild? Can i use the 2 reavers to counter? if the (zerg) din't pre-calculate the possibility of the TRAGEDY and used minerals to expand lost the game ? calculate. Tragedy or not the Objective here was to Breake the Hydralisk russ and 1.80 sec TIME. The Point is i did the example without upgrades couse it can be stopped without upgrades!!?
The coming up Lurkers russ can be stopped with some Archons (you show it in a game many Lukers faild to protect a base from Archons attack), they are very effective even to the deffilers 'problem' and the Reavers (must be build early can protect a base with 3-4 goons infront only) but spear me the details ok? By the time zerg to do that you will have alote of goons upgrated (no casualties). The Objective to survive the types off russ with less or no casualties will lead you closer to win the game.
The bottom line if you really need to do something fast do the CALCULATIONS and do it what you will cut ? some upgrades or buildings find some balance you play protoss not me i just gave you the basic ideas.
SOS: Flash in 3rd game did push all the limits down 30 secs built TIME vultures so many all over the map no space left to protoss. The game is lost becouse of a pre-caltulated GAMEPLAN the most of them they play without it!!? Finaly i have to throu everything up to solve my pizza problems? What do you 'see' in a vod how many scvs are in the gass ? "looser" beck.
**** Zerg is so lame race that any idiot can take and do some wins wihtout even to see the map so i don't really care how 'good' is Jaedong is broing to see a match with zerg i almost never do. Protoss they are really powerfull but with expencive upgrates, units is alote of tricky to reatch a level "there is no unit that i can't fix fast" in order to have a chanse with Flash. In the end TvsT with Flash are more exciting matches and i like to see him play. ****
With Flash a good advice always is DO NOT piss him of. (point taken but with a real good player is better don't try a macro build that you will loose like a factory. He knows that i know, we 'speack' from my first post in this site a bit of a problem? i toled you fix a prive meeting)
Ps: I forgot the REAL problem of most players is their search of a pattern, a standard they read about in a web page and they using it by experience you can do some wins in many games the problem is they STICK TO THAT and you may find your self in a pro semi final with some luck but i call it "an accident" most of the times. Great possibility my TIME in here wasted, many Protoss will continue searching what 'standard' used Flash to beat you up, Cya in the next Flash game.
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Is this even economically viable for the toss late game? Assuming that you only want about 6-7 tanks it'll cost about CC 400 + B 150 + F 200x3 + SD 200-300 + Tank & Upg 150*6-7 ~ 2500 minerals and ~ 1k gas. Not to mention how long it would take to set up and where would the space come from?
Should go for more of a strategic play like Reach or Nal_rA. The macrobots just aren't cutting it cause they're trying to beat Flash at his own game and he also outmicro's them. Stork is the only current toss with a decent chance imo.
Unless you get really lucky and meet flash's scv line that is conga lining to a 3rd or a 4th witha DA, it would be very hard to sneak out an scv. And if I was a protoss, and is able to shuttle in 2 DA, I would rather shuttle in 4 HT and storm his mineral line, not steal 1 scv ;;
Pizza problem solved if you ask me can you beat Flash? No i can't i'm to old 38 for playing once i was unbeatable and if i loose some times i always found a way to never to loose again. If you ask me why i did helped Protoss players is it couse i seen to many defeats and nal_ra, stork looking for ducks, din't help the new kids.
When i said to some block your expansion exit they were lol at me but you seen it working vultures stopped with some pylons (gave the TIME to Protoss to bring some forces) breaking the other players moves from the very beggin can help to win the game. I will update the posts if i see more problems to Protoss players.
Snow's mistake was that he gave a 'gift' the expo to 10o clock corner when you already manage to have the edge why to through that amoud of minerals and gass to a not easily defend place? he could build more forces and do far more better. Many at the other Threat din't understood how Flash lost the game! Yet the point is you can't afford sutch a mistake when you are a Protoss player. Need to do the calculations again.
Protoss they are realy powerfull but the expencive upgrades, units (2 scouts cost 1 carrier!?) makes the economy managment really tricky issue and big challenge to anyone there is no room for mistakes like that! Scout also needs 3 supplies 1 upgrade to be fast and 1 upgrade to see better but in 'large' numbers no air unit can match them if they have 2 Corsair as escort, in the ground can do slow but really good damage.
The only argument of that is that flash splited some of his forces up to 10 o clock and open a smal 'door' for attacking but was it worth it? I don't think so (luck to that attack ? have that in mind may help you)
Snow played really good but he could and MUST do better couse he hade alote of luck in the game. KT Terran players tryed to add a really 'early' Engineering while one of the Protoss Objective was to 'force' that move to Flash in order to win some TIME to build more units they made you an 'early' gift, also he went for an early second factory another 'early' gift to Snow!?
Snow managed to have the Starport Earlyer that Flash the barraks and 1-2 zelots but the destruction of the banker that gave the edge of 100 minerals to Snow (Snow took advandage really nice there 1 zelot and 1 goon) were more on luck couse you have seen Flash if he really wanted to fix a banker to use 5-6 scvs infront (i toled to some protoss put some probes infront if they have to they lol at me) and 1-2 marines back with exelent play managed to fix a banker in your first expo!! Don't be mistaken to underestimate Flash gameplay the move to use the Arbiter to the expo and NOT to the main kept that edge to you. The Arbiter should have left the area faster for the next expo in the end its the only thing that can give you the "Time to get there in 0 secs" no other race can do it. The 1 extra hot key that needs Flash to scan the area may not worth, he moves the scvs first and you loosing the splash damage to the scvs from the siege and if you seen the scan move the Arbiter for the next expo fast. You can force 1 extra hot key to any Terran gameplay by puting 1 dark templar to any mission anyway. I mean some players looking for ways to make the other player use more hot keys during the conflict is not a joke.
In order to make you fully understund imagine if you kill all the scvs in 2 diffent expo really fast, protoss can do that with 1 arbiter is what we were trying to do here. Don't destroy the command centers then a pro player will need 2 many clicks to make to diffent sides on a map to make the 2 expos ussable again (1 spacebar 18 csvs x 2 clicks to point them to minerals x 2CC) and calculate the TIME needed to be ussabe again, how many times will need to press the alt + x hot key to return to the battle. He may gg game couse he know he will be left BEHIND many clicks if you continue the pressure or he will tiered, this is the REAL outplayed. (Flash will kill me in the end hehehehe) This is Objective no 1 couse if you manage to do someting like that anyone will see his forces not to moved really good or not to moved at all for some TIME "he beat me allright but i made him suffer" is better than nothing. He will run to you to make the same damage but if you have the power to hold on (nice Snow did) you will put his mind into delema how far infront you are and how behind he is if you give him the Impression that your product is in level far away with some carriers (nice Snow did) and its impossible to catch on increases the possiblity to take the gg. Objective Take the edge, increasse the edge, make his mind impossible to calculate (lost inside of to many cliks) resolt comfussion, a good time for an attack.
When his vultures found the exit of Snows expo blocked another move in his gameplan broken (i toled you do it and they lol at me) gave to the most pleople in forum to have the impression like Snow could predict all his moves and cansel of his plans from the Beggin so Flash maybe a little mad at me ? Acceptable.
The point is If Flash change also his Objectives to that direction Snow will loose BIG time in the next game so be really carefull (pizza problems i hope no more heheheh)
Ps: From the other heand is Flash wish to FAKE a defeat for reasons 'unknown' is better for all of us to stop thinking.
Dark archons why not, like you said if flash just sits and maxes the protoss can afford stealing an scv and start working on tanks, he will soon be on his way to a 400 supply army which will force flash into being more agressive which could turn out advantageous to protoss even if he won't be given the time to actually make the tanks.
If you look back, then current situation in TvP is somewhat similiar to ~1.5 years back in PvZ when the 6 dragons where raping every zerg with 4 gate 2 archon build. And where is PvZ today? 5 hatch hydra builds, into muta builds... 4 gate 2 archon push is merely a good memory. This is what I'm expecting to happen in PvT as well, in time of course. Although Flash's real power comes in lategame, when playing against him most protoss are in disadvantage way before lategame. A new build order is to be discovered in order to gain proper midgame macro advantage.
The way to consistantly beat flash is obviously to play better than him. A strategy like snow used might work a few times but remember that Flash is learning aswell. As long as you want to consistantly beat him, a strategy will not be enough.
It would take an insane amount of APM, and a bit more resources, but what about Disruption Web combined with Psionic Storm on tank clusters? Tanks already siege/unsiege slowly, just having a few Corsairs swooping around webbing and scouting could be useful, and they're strong enough to take a few Turret and Goliath shots. Then A-move your army and supplement storms.
I think this could work by stealing the SCV that builds Flash's 4th CC. A lot of people say the defense is too strong to pull off or if you can do why not just kill the base or defend it. Neither of which would do you much good if all that's up there is a SCV building a CC which is what all terrans have when they first make their 4th base. You can kill it sure, that happens in about half a Flash's games, he tries to take his 4th earlier just sending an SCV up there spending 400 minerals, it forces the P player to relocated a lot of his army and he looses about 500-1000 minerals worth of guys killing the half built CC, then flash bring his tanks a little closer and makes the CC again about 5 minutes later and usually secures it if the P player didn't let him have it the first time. So the first time flash tries to take his 4th instead of stopping it fairly easily you just take the SCV with a slow shuttle and a DA and shuttle back the DA and SCV, since flash has no turrets or army nearby to speak of.
But I think there's also some underused arbiter tactics which could be just as effective:
recalling speedlots onto seiged tanks- tanks are terrans most vauble resource and what ultimately let him when the late game by massing up enough of them. by killing 6-12 of them with a recall and 18-30 lots you delay the tanks from reaching critical mass a lot and if you do it a couple times he'll never be able to get enough to get a 4th base and will eventual starve out.
hallucinated arbiters- free used this strategy effectively, it let's you get an arbiter past a vessell and a bunch of turrets.
statising SCVs- I think it was movie or kal I saw use this strategy against flash on matchpoint at his 4th in the top left. Instead of losing 24 goons to try and take out a CC and usually fail, you can just cast 2 statises on the SCVs to stop almost all mining. Then you're only losing 1 arbiter if even. And you can produce enough arbiters to keep them statised when you have such an econ advantage. Eventually Flash will starve out if he's only mining from 3 bases and trying to defend 4 bases with only 3 mining won't allow for flash to push out provided 30 of your supply is occupied by building carriers.
Another tactic I think is under-utilized against flash is proxy robo. Movie did this against flash in the last OSL finals and it worked wonderfully, flash even scouted it, it forced flash to get extra reaver defense a little bit earlier than normal and this cut into his army and allowed movie to expand earlier. At the point movie had 5 bases to flash's 2 he could have easily won that game with better arbiter tactics.
And finally there's one timing attack that flash is vulnerable to every game that starts standard because flash will try to take his nat as earlier as possible with as little defense as possible. Kal's reaver harass into DT drop strat.
I Mostly speacking about strategies and objectives calculated answers will help only. Killing the scvs will create the "lost effect" we need in here statising SCVs will do nothing terran can 'wait' by building a strong defence before to lunch an attact always and this is another of your problem.
The psy storm damage is 112 for 4 secs. Siege has 150 hit points so will not kill them, Snow was succefull couse he managed to drop 4 and use them all together in a sigle shot before the siege will blow them up (a bit of luck also need it).
The recal is better to be used to relocate the units than in suicide missions and the siege tanks are never alone (if you play with Flash) also calculate the clicks and the hot keys need it for the disruption web will help you all to understund that some moves you are thinking may not be possible in a pro game but then again you play protoss not i.
Snow was so 'lucky' that the game was ALOTE of 'strange' if you understund what i mean.
I demand the other player will give us his best always else we have no reason to think.
For a example of pre calculated game is the first 4 mins of a BW game and i was thinking for an 'early' starport and some 'early' valkyries to save some 'early' minerals by building less 'early' missle turrent agains the Mutalisks but this will throw back the 'early' Academy always need it for the firebats are always needed it to protect against the zerglings, can take out 4 of them in a sigle shot, you see what i mean ? The "how do i survive from a russ" question must always be in your minds.
Flash tryed it succefully and the bottom line is NO THEY DONT PLAY 14cc STANDARD. Snow is doing really good (i bet on him) but we need to see him 3 games in the row with Flash,
PS Jaedong "Flushed down the toilet" if you want my oppinion about that games.
Please don't ignore me just because of post count. I've been with TL since way before SC2 was announced.
I didn't watch snow's game, but I think the whole DA strategy is somewhat interesting. If a protoss can somehow get an early enough dark templar with enough energy for a mind control, divert enough attention to tech to tanks, and then just play the macro game, they can get a 400/400 army whereas terrans will only get a 200/200 pop (assuming excess minerals and gas once they reach this point). This means that terrans will have to play offensively to keep their protoss opponent under 200/400 pop. As we all know, terrans suck at offense, especially against tanks.
It basically means, that the game balance switches immensely in favor of a protoss if they can do this.
Imo though, it's a cute trick, but it won't work a majority of the time, and will lead to more losses than wins. Perhaps there should be a cool strategy tournament for pros. Every pro must use an unusual tactic. Then the fans give them points for how much they liked it, and not specifically whether it won or not. 1. It'd be more entertaining to the fans 2. Potential of new strategies popping up
you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines? mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether
On June 04 2010 09:29 Frolossus wrote: you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines? mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether
have you played tvt? tanks/golis a-moved kill mines. seriously.
On June 04 2010 09:29 Frolossus wrote: you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines? mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether
have you played tvt? tanks/golis a-moved kill mines. seriously.
Yeah, all instant-shooting units have good chances of killing mines.
For example, Hydras kill them well, but they're so weak and small that a single mistake can cost you 8 hydras.
Or you could just tech all the way up to BCs like that epic game from a long time ago on Jim Raynor's Memory or whatever. I think it was in the first set of pimpest plays.
Besides like DA mind control, would Corsair DWeb + HT work against the whole "let's shove tanks/vultures down your throat" strategy? (DWeb around your army when vultures come, on tanks when they siege) I mean, there's no point for the opponent to mass up goliaths like for carriers, and assuming that you can dodge goliaths with sairs like you do with arbiters (except faster >_____>) and attack them with goons, you should be able to shut down tanks and such pretty easily, and with DWeb you can still storm the tanks I think...
On June 04 2010 11:55 ymir233 wrote: Besides like DA mind control, would Corsair DWeb + HT work against the whole "let's shove tanks/vultures down your throat" strategy? (DWeb around your army when vultures come, on tanks when they siege) I mean, there's no point for the opponent to mass up goliaths like for carriers, and assuming that you can dodge goliaths with sairs like you do with arbiters (except faster >_____>) and attack them with goons, you should be able to shut down tanks and such pretty easily, and with DWeb you can still storm the tanks I think...
the problem with sair/goon is that its difficult to transition both in and out of. the stargates don't come cheap, dweb is 125 energy, and corsairs cost 100 gas each. the sheer number of dwebs you'll need to effectively deal with the death terran push means that you'll need to start building up corsairs very early, and there'll be massive timing windows where the terran can basically destroy you every time. it's been tried, it's worked for a bit, and not anymore
On June 04 2010 12:43 AaronEB wrote: I noticed that most of the top players are either Terran or Zerg. Anyone have any information about this?
Top protoss players are slumping. Kal is a good player but he is a choker and will never go further than semis. Movie went to OSL finals but sucks imo.
Sorry OP I don't believe this is feasible. I think Flash will timing attack before you get your tanks out. And even if you manage to get them out you're up again 3-3 tanks v 0-0 tanks.
Last season: 1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army.
I think toss in general needs to toss in some 2base "bulldog" play into the equation in between their 12nexuses. Flash oftens seems to get his third up regardless of seeing protoss taking a third or not lately... But he's scouting really well with vultures so I'm not sure it'll work...
Should go for more of a strategic play like Reach or Nal_rA. The macrobots just aren't cutting it cause they're trying to beat Flash at his own game and he also outmicro's them. Stork is the only current toss with a decent chance imo.
The way to consistantly beat flash is obviously to play better than him. A strategy like snow used might work a few times but remember that Flash is learning aswell. As long as you want to consistantly beat him, a strategy will not be enough.
Also OP what is your current iccup rank? I'm not trying to insult you, I am just wondering because it seems this could only work at the lower levels, as SoManyDeadLings suggested. (Actually he said it only worked against opponents 2 levels or more lower than him. But same idea).
I mean... mayybeee? Fash doesn't turtle so hard that tosses have infinite minerals/gas but just can't win because of the 200/200 cap, so i don't know if they'd have enough resources to build up an effective terran army as well. mind control would be cool to watch regardless though.
What protoss really need to stop doing is 12 nexing every game and start doing more bulldog/ fast reaver/ proxy gates/ elevator rush/ reaver and dt drop off 1 base like kal did to forgg (rofl) kind of builds. The macro cheese obviously isn't working at all so i think this is a viable course of action
The real answer though is that Flash is just plain better than everyone else though, and he wont lose with any kind of regularity until someone emerges that is as good as him. People are forgetting that Better than everyone else means BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE!! The better player almost always beats the worse player unless he's only a little bit better. and Flash is a lot better than everyone else.
Snow lost a nexus the beggin but managed to save his probs in the end he won the game how ? He managed to creat the "lost into many click effect" our no 1 objective to Much by using psy storm for the probs in 2 expansions, it is very effective.
He also fake an attact to the 13:00 o clock expansion and the funny was Much "eat it up" and send all of his forces there then real attact came from behind in his main base by the time to return and defent was too late, you will see Much smiling also heheh. The timed attact came at the right momend "a good time for an attact" everthing good 10nx Snow.
Also in here http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc4MDI1NzMy.html you will see Snow again to using all technics and completes all the objectives i wrote above with different ways. In hear the funny part is Snow looses his main nexus but he won the game 10nx again Snow. The Drama 'queen' in here is kwanro, see my first post for details.
If the Objectives are completed you have great chance to win the game always trust me.
On June 04 2010 13:28 avilo wrote: Maybe dweb is the key? pretty general statement but that's certainly something no toss has tried in ages in late, late game vs flash.
Dweb would be crazy, if you can get enough sairs and have the APM to split them to avoid getting 20 sairs EMP'd. Exploit the Terran mech's lack of mobillity even more.
Let's just pretend that Flash didn't smack you down before you could get some tanks up and you got some set up. Big whoop. You're still using 0-0 tanks vs 3-2 tanks and are liable to get stomped all over.
I think the main point it to revisit hallucination, a spell that i think is underused. Since 200/200 toss armies lose out to 200/200 terran mech balls, then hallucination would help to increase the amount of units that you have, since ht's would most probably be killed by siege splash. This is just the most basic use of hallucination - as a meat shield.
The second part of hallucination is to fake a tech switch. Notice how many tosses seem to die badly to flash when they do the transition from ground units to carriers? The Snow game vs Flash game was where i based the idea from, however Snow had managed to chalk up such a huge advantage that the switch around was feasible. He built 3( or 4-5) carriers to fake flash into thinking that carriers are coming and thus spent his resources making goliaths to have a ground army roll his army over. However, in this case, hallucination to fake a carrier switch. To trick Terrans, the toss should hide out most of his ground army and do a sort a preparation to a full carrier switch. This would definitely get the terran off guard
also the hts that has no energy should stay about the front lines as tho they are goin to storm. This would waste the emps of the scv
Not sure if anyone else here listens to PLU's chinese commentators but 大师 is always complaining about how a lot of Protoss players seem to try fast arbiter-tech builds and just die to timing pushes. Instead they should just play it safe and macro hardcore zeal/goon while expanding and pursuing a later tech. IMO this makes a lot of good sense because when you the arbiter just comes out it is almost useless so it doesn't really make much sense to rush for it so quickly.
I actually like this idea. Usually people either use DAs for maelstrom (vs zerg or bio), or they completely skip it. This way, they could still have templar tech for storms, and be able to have a nice static defense at home.
OFC this won't work long term, but it would def shake up the PVT world for a bit.
if you really want to use hallucination, i think an underused tactic may be to triple your arbiter count, then use them to bait out random EMPs, and get way more stasis off than you normally would. hallucinations dont cost food, so that wouldnt really lower your army count, though you are sacrificing storms, so unless flash has a vessel count that is seriously hindering some clutch stasis, its probably not worth it.
the hallucination/recall trick would be really helpful in getting a recall through, but even if you do get a recall off, it wont necessarily win you the game.
On June 04 2010 13:23 Subversive wrote: Sorry OP I don't believe this is feasible. I think Flash will timing attack before you get your tanks out. And even if you manage to get them out you're up again 3-3 tanks v 0-0 tanks.
Last season: 1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?) 2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash. 3. Jaedong does it.
This season:
1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted) 2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash. 3. ???
Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.
Seriously, Protoss players are like: - Recall 15-20 units into Terran main. - Kill Armory + some Vultures. - DIE.
Why not...:
...Recall to defend distant bases? ...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army? ...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety? ...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?
Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.
If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army.
I think toss in general needs to toss in some 2base "bulldog" play into the equation in between their 12nexuses. Flash oftens seems to get his third up regardless of seeing protoss taking a third or not lately... But he's scouting really well with vultures so I'm not sure it'll work...
Should go for more of a strategic play like Reach or Nal_rA. The macrobots just aren't cutting it cause they're trying to beat Flash at his own game and he also outmicro's them. Stork is the only current toss with a decent chance imo.
The way to consistantly beat flash is obviously to play better than him. A strategy like snow used might work a few times but remember that Flash is learning aswell. As long as you want to consistantly beat him, a strategy will not be enough.
Also OP what is your current iccup rank? I'm not trying to insult you, I am just wondering because it seems this could only work at the lower levels, as SoManyDeadLings suggested. (Actually he said it only worked against opponents 2 levels or more lower than him. But same idea).
C- toss but I don't see how this applies =S
I've never used this strategy on iccup and I'm not suggesting this to iccup Protoss to do in the late game. I'm strickly talking about progamer level Protoss and vs Flash. The idea of utilizing DA's and mind control seems really gimmicky upon first glance, but if you were to look back in the thread I've covered the specific timing, late game setup, advantages vs the carrier switch and ways of getting the scv. I've read every comment in this thread and, thus far, none has suggested a reason so definite on why this strategy wont work; this is also the reason why I relentlessly advocate my idea. =P
Man, this DA strategy seems absolutely awesome for me! I mean - sure it's extremely difficult but can winning against Flash be easy? So far nobody seems to have better idea anyways...
In late game, when you're maxed and your minerals start to skyrocketing - why not do this? Sacrificing a shuttle, DA, and one Arbiter Recall energy for an SCV feels a fair trade, considering the advantage it can give you. The late 200/200 supply mech army cannot be attacked head-on by either protoss or zerg 200/200 armies. But how about 200/200 plus 10 tanks to celar out mines, greedy vultures and supply depots Flash tends to build in the way?
The most difficult part for this whole plan to work will be to complete building CC, i think. But with a well timed scv stole (right before faked attack for instance), some units and / or cannons left in the main to defend this SCV I think it could work.
Of course somebody who does it should be able to survive that long against flash WITHOUT tank support, that comes only in the late, late game. Still some faster strategies to win needed I think. Timing pushes without arbiters or something like this maybe...
Listen boys this is a real threat and real means many pro gamers read it, first you must focus to their weaknesses and to offer them solutions in their problems not yours, Most of their problems was the fisrt 4 minuts of a BW game here i was watching alote of Protoss players loosing from zerg and i addupt to that i'm giving the basic logic "how to brake a russ" using examples and gave only 1 Objective
Then the procedure is to watch what pro players can addupt in that kind of gameplay and who completed the Objective Snow is the one i spend time to watch in here, i also gave the explenation what really was the objective :
How importand is to focus in that objective? He got it did it with diffent ways you can read about in here couse soon Snow will realize he can win nomatter what he is loosing:
What will use to do it ravers, dwebs in some cases no really matter.
Finaly what i'm telling you if you focus to the objectives it is possible to win the games one after another really fast and noobady can really uderstund how and why. Fist i want to clear the zerg problem that many protoss pro gamers seem to have and then we gonna see about Flash.
For me is not a problem if you dont understund i'm gonna see you in the next Snow game luck has nothing to do in the end.
Ps: the point was we can't speack for mind cotrolling an scv anymore we hade enough of this 'idea'
Best way to beat flash is to be aware of his tendencies; he is proxy raxing on some maps and going rax then expo on other maps. If you know there is a high probability of him proxy raxing, you early scout and try to find it and kill the scv. If you know he likes to go rax then expo, then proxy robo is a good strategy against it; if you attack the front while dropping their base, it's almost impossible to stop. Basically you have to make it to where flash has to play standard against 14 nexus. And when flash feels he has to play standard and toss players continue to 14 nexus, then you have a chance -- however slim it is.
What are really wanna say is the best way to make this threat more constructive is all of us will choose one pro protoss player and find his weeknesses, why he lost the game, why went late to win the game. I got Snow you find another one that can do the same 'simple' objectives with many diffrent ways and we all wrote them up in here. Some time anyone may loose a game if the other player takes an extreme risk (thats why i wrote what you mean lost ? he didn't do any mistake i was seeing flash along time ago) you find a good spot we wrote it up calculated answeres are always helpfull.
I Hope this threat will not be turned "Snow did that" forget flash for the moment Snow already is in a very good path. The 'drama' queen was kwanro see the vod with Snow is better and simple this way.
PS: Yes Snow can beat Flash but i need Flash to play his best vs Snow the excuse "i was trying something funny" i say it was fixed Snow played good but come on....
Why do people theorize on ways to beat progamers like Flash? Don't they understand that progaming houses are constantly developing new strats and if the Dark Archon were viable for standard play we would see it used? It is just ridiculous to theorycraft strats for the professional level, especially if your not anything special yourself.
Basically, Toss' need to stop relying on just arbiters in their late game composition and mix in HT's also. This is extremely gas heavy, one would need atleast 4 gas to be able to sustain constant arbiter and HT production.
Ex:
(Another example is Nony vs Idra in the TSL2 on Andromeda)
If you watch this game you can see that Nada has a very large unit advantage at this point in the game and Jangbi overcomes this with flat out amazing storms. 4 HT (one shuttles worth) with energy upgrade and almost full energy is 12 storms, now this is enough to decimate almost any terran army, for 200 min and 600 gas. I believe this is the key for toss to take it to the next level; much more frequent and very well placed storms.
Not only does it stop pushes in their tracks, but storm drops simply rape workers. I have no idea why toss' these days don't sacrifice a couple HT during any game over 15min and kill a large amount of SCV's with a simple storm drop. Flashes timing sense is spot on, but he will generally let a toss take it to late game if they play safe enough, so it's not impossible to get to a situation where you can pull this strategy off.
Another advantage to this "strategy" is there isn't really a simple counter to it. It can work game in, game out. You can't vult snipe HT's/emp them when they're in a shuttle. Strategies like DA's might work in one game, but after you reveal this to a terran they'll know better the next game.
I, by no means, actually want toss to start doing this because I'm a T player and Flash is my favorite player, but this is what I think would be the most effective way to combat him.
On June 05 2010 07:14 DeathByMonkeys wrote: Two words... Psionic Storm.
Basically, Toss' need to stop relying on just arbiters in their late game composition and mix in HT's also. This is extremely gas heavy, one would need atleast 4 gas to be able to sustain constant arbiter and HT production.
(Another example is Nony vs Idra in the TSL2 on Andromeda)
If you watch this game you can see that Nada has a very large unit advantage at this point in the game and Jangbi overcomes this with flat out amazing storms. 4 HT (one shuttles worth) with energy upgrade and almost full energy is 12 storms, now this is enough to decimate almost any terran army, for 200 min and 600 gas. I believe this is the key for toss to take it to the next level; much more frequent and very well placed storms.
Not only does it stop pushes in their tracks, but storm drops simply rape workers. I have no idea why toss' these days don't sacrifice a couple HT during any game over 15min and kill a large amount of SCV's with a simple storm drop. Flashes timing sense is spot on, but he will generally let a toss take it to late game if they play safe enough, so it's not impossible to get to a situation where you can pull this strategy off.
Another advantage to this "strategy" is there isn't really a simple counter to it. It can work game in, game out. You can't vult snipe HT's/emp them when they're in a shuttle. Strategies like DA's might work in one game, but after you reveal this to a terran they'll know better the next game.
I, by no means, actually want toss to start doing this because I'm a T player and Flash is my favorite player, but this is what I think would be the most effective way to combat him.
I agree with this completely, better storm usage could pay dividends for Protoss. Also didn't Nal ra in a semi recent interview say that better storm usage was what Protoss needs to focus on?
On June 05 2010 07:14 DeathByMonkeys wrote: Two words... Psionic Storm.
Basically, Toss' need to stop relying on just arbiters in their late game composition and mix in HT's also. This is extremely gas heavy, one would need atleast 4 gas to be able to sustain constant arbiter and HT production.
(Another example is Nony vs Idra in the TSL2 on Andromeda)
If you watch this game you can see that Nada has a very large unit advantage at this point in the game and Jangbi overcomes this with flat out amazing storms. 4 HT (one shuttles worth) with energy upgrade and almost full energy is 12 storms, now this is enough to decimate almost any terran army, for 200 min and 600 gas. I believe this is the key for toss to take it to the next level; much more frequent and very well placed storms.
Not only does it stop pushes in their tracks, but storm drops simply rape workers. I have no idea why toss' these days don't sacrifice a couple HT during any game over 15min and kill a large amount of SCV's with a simple storm drop. Flashes timing sense is spot on, but he will generally let a toss take it to late game if they play safe enough, so it's not impossible to get to a situation where you can pull this strategy off.
Another advantage to this "strategy" is there isn't really a simple counter to it. It can work game in, game out. You can't vult snipe HT's/emp them when they're in a shuttle. Strategies like DA's might work in one game, but after you reveal this to a terran they'll know better the next game.
I, by no means, actually want toss to start doing this because I'm a T player and Flash is my favorite player, but this is what I think would be the most effective way to combat him.
Yeah, I sort of agree that. Psionic Storm can provide huge DPS for Toss Zeal/Goon heavy army. In fact you can incorporate HT whether in mid game where you have your arbiter tech late or late game when arbiter is coming out to boost the Toss army. The HT can load onto the shuttle to shield from the vulture snipe and EMP, and Arbiter can provide cloaking field to cover the HT to safely cast the storms. I think this is quite a powerful combo to combat Terran's mech army. The only problem is this is very micro intensive move. Which I doubt any progamers level will have any difficulty to pull that off.
in standard situations, 200/200 T>P>Z, it always been and will be like that. Just use your base advantage, trade armies and outmacro him. It's that easy ;]!
After Snow fake the attact in 13:00 o clock exapansion Much Moved all his forces there couse he need that place badly the "lost in 2 many click" effect 'force' him to that (objective) After Snow lunches the real attact he also 'left' 2 HTs in a spot to 'wait' for Much forces to return with some goons in another place (the POINT is when) with all of your forces "out played" runing back to your base you need to pass from a Psy Storm doing the damage 224 for 4 secs (enough time to kill all the runing forces) no units have the hitpoints to survive that so the POINT also is were and why there. Much is smiles couse he lost with a very beautifull way.
Drama 'queen' means ok Snow lost 1 nexus but did he lost his forces ? No and that was the Objective if the attacer didn't pre calculate the possibility of the drama Lost the game. Then Snow is moving his forces out and the drama 'queen' may have the minerals and the buildings BUT has no TIME to build them, Snow manages to wipe out some of zergs forces (small army) just produced in his way and finishes the game with 1 attact. Point is how many knew that Snow won the game after he lost his main nexus ? Only me and Snow?
1 timed attact = The game is lost.
Easy vitory for Snow he could have did it and with "look mom no hands" in the keybord (Flash timed attact to jaedong 3rd game)
Basicly Snow does not need more than 2 cc to finish a game and now he knows that. Do you really think you can play him ? not anymore. I bet He thinks many more diffrent ways to 'out play' forces in a rong direction like goliaths for example, etc if it is needed to a place 2 HTs are waiting and leave the 'door' open for some zelots to the goliathless siege for example, 1 Arbiter in another place can recall the hunted carriers in another, goliath free, real target and NOT to be used as suicide move with 0 resolts just to make the funs to go WOW. Point is NO MORE boring games.
Ps: i spend some time in the other protoss players BUT it was boring and i lost my TIME cya in the next Snow game, ohh i forgot do you really think that Snow has a problem with 'bad' evestments ? not anymore =;-) You really must learn in What to Focus and spear me the details please don't make me to write a book of Snow gameplay ok ? See the vods again. I will not spead more time in this one pal ok ? Find the TIME to read all my posts.
On June 06 2010 07:14 ProoM wrote: in standard situations, 200/200 T>P>Z, it always been and will be like that. Just use your base advantage, trade armies and outmacro him. It's that easy ;]!
The PvZ death ball is a gas-heavy 200/200 army. A gas-light 200/200 Protoss army isn't very strong, particularly once defilers hit the field.
On June 06 2010 07:14 ProoM wrote: in standard situations, 200/200 T>P>Z, it always been and will be like that. Just use your base advantage, trade armies and outmacro him. It's that easy ;]!
The PvZ death ball is a gas-heavy 200/200 army. A gas-light 200/200 Protoss army isn't very strong, particularly once defilers hit the field.
I believe he is referring to an ideal late game unit composition. At which point, I agree with that statement, but it depends a lot on unit control.
After Snow fake the attact in 13:00 o clock exapansion Much Moved all his forces there couse he need that place badly the "lost in 2 many click" effect 'force' him to that (objective) After Snow lunches the real attact he also 'left' 2 HTs in a spot to 'wait' for Much forces to return with some goons in another place (the POINT is when) with all of your forces "out played" runing back to your base you need to pass from a Psy Storm doing the damage 224 for 4 secs (enough time to kill all the runing forces) no units have the hitpoints to survive that so the POINT also is were and why there. Much is smiles couse he lost with a very beautifull way.
Drama 'queen' means ok Snow lost 1 nexus but did he lost his forces ? No and that was the Objective if the attacer didn't pre calculate the possibility of the drama Lost the game. Then Snow is moving his forces out and the drama 'queen' may have the minerals and the buildings BUT has no TIME to build them, Snow manages to wipe out some of zergs forces (small army) just produced in his way and finishes the game with 1 attact.
1 timed attact = The game is lost.
Easy vitory for Snow he could have did it and with "look mom no hands" in the keybord (Flash timed attact to jaedong 3rd game)
Basicly Snow does not need more than 2 cc to finish a game and now he knows that. Do you really think you can play him ? not anymore. I bet He thinks many more diffrent ways to 'out play' forces in a rong direction like goliaths for example, etc if it is needed to a place 2 HTs are waiting and leave the 'door' open for some zelots to the goliathless siege for example. Point is NO MORE boring games.
Ps: i spend some time in the other protoss players BUT it was boring and i lost my TIME cya in the next Snow game, ohh i forgot do you really think that Snow has a problem with 'bad' evestments ? not anymore =;-) You really must learn in What to Focus and spear me the details please don't make me to write a book of Snow gameplay ok ? See the vods again.
I've never been more confused in my life. I want what you are on.
First off, I have absolutely no idea what pvt and pvz have to do with "how to beat flash." Second of all, I'm utterly confused by this "drama queen" talk. I'll just have to assume I missed some drama involving Kwanro... Thirdly, talking in third person is baller.
No offense, but i can't make it more clear if you are not ready to understand then you may never will so whats the point to talk about it ? will help anyone?
After Snow fake the attact in 13:00 o clock exapansion Much Moved all his forces there couse he need that place badly the "lost in 2 many click" effect 'force' him to that (objective) After Snow lunches the real attact he also 'left' 2 HTs in a spot to 'wait' for Much forces to return with some goons in another place (the POINT is when) with all of your forces "out played" runing back to your base you need to pass from a Psy Storm doing the damage 224 for 4 secs (enough time to kill all the runing forces) no units have the hitpoints to survive that so the POINT also is were and why there. Much is smiles couse he lost with a very beautifull way.
Drama 'queen' means ok Snow lost 1 nexus but did he lost his forces ? No and that was the Objective if the attacer didn't pre calculate the possibility of the drama Lost the game. Then Snow is moving his forces out and the drama 'queen' may have the minerals and the buildings BUT has no TIME to build them, Snow manages to wipe out some of zergs forces (small army) just produced in his way and finishes the game with 1 attact.
1 timed attact = The game is lost.
Easy vitory for Snow he could have did it and with "look mom no hands" in the keybord (Flash timed attact to jaedong 3rd game)
Basicly Snow does not need more than 2 cc to finish a game and now he knows that. Do you really think you can play him ? not anymore. I bet He thinks many more diffrent ways to 'out play' forces in a rong direction like goliaths for example, etc if it is needed to a place 2 HTs are waiting and leave the 'door' open for some zelots to the goliathless siege for example. Point is NO MORE boring games.
Ps: i spend some time in the other protoss players BUT it was boring and i lost my TIME cya in the next Snow game, ohh i forgot do you really think that Snow has a problem with 'bad' evestments ? not anymore =;-) You really must learn in What to Focus and spear me the details please don't make me to write a book of Snow gameplay ok ? See the vods again.
I've never been more confused in my life. I want what you are on.
I shared your feeling. Probably because of the spelling..
Do find the time and write with better spelling why do you think Snow won the game but please don't speack about how many probs used in gass ok? its really not worth the TIME.
its 1 vod i want you to see it and tell me WHY kwanro didn't had tha forces to counter Snows attact.
i mean his main nexus was broken anyone in the room was cheering WOW and yeah for kwanros GREAT move exept Snow and ME, we knew that kwanro LOST the game with this move. If you can't understand i can't do nothing to help you, i mean really.
i clame protoss can stop zergs hydra attacts with NO upgrades and win the game with 1 single attact so please find the TIME and read it once AGAIN in order to do something really constructive here couse sharing our feelings will really help NOBADY in this theat and thats the POINT
Gtks, I'm not trying to be an asshole for you . But your statement in your thread is just too random. At one time you talk about Much vs Snow PvP match. Then suddenly you switch to that so called Drama queen PvZ. Furthermore you state 2 cc which is Terran building, not a protoss building which is Snow's race. And to make things worst, there are many spelling typos in your thread which makes me confused as hell.
And this thread is about how the Protoss progamer can stop Flash's TvP late game army which is very powerful. Since current trend for Protoss in PvT is tech arbiter or using carrier for Protoss late game army in PvT.
I'm with you not your enemy you play protoss i play TERRAN please see the VOD and tell me WHY Snow won the game do i ask mutch ? forget the other vod see the kwanro vod and i don;t like to be like an asshole to you but you may need to read it AGAIN:
i clame protoss can stop zergs hydra attacts with NO upgrades and win the game with 1 single attact so please find the TIME and read it once AGAIN in order to do something really constructive here couse sharing our feelings will really help NOBADY in this theat and thats the POINT
You can create another post to ask this question. especially in Strategy section. I'm sure you can find your answer in no time. Instead trying post this thing in irrelevant thread like here. No body will care about your question which is nothing to do how to beat flash in here.
well i think Gtks is trying to make a point through the snow kwanro vod or something where snow / kwanro does something that is similar to what snow did vs flash or waht snow COULD/SHOULd've done vs flash instead of whatever he did there.
and not really trying to ask a question
tahst what i think i didn't read his 2 super long posts haha
On June 06 2010 12:17 Gtks wrote: I'm with you not your enemy you play protoss i play TERRAN please see the VOD and tell me WHY Snow won the game do i ask mutch ? forget the other vod see the kwanro vod and i don;t like to be like an asshole to you but you may need to read it AGAIN:
i clame protoss can stop zergs hydra attacts with NO upgrades and win the game with 1 single attact so please find the TIME and read it once AGAIN in order to do something really constructive here couse sharing our feelings will really help NOBADY in this theat and thats the POINT
yes i know i make mistakes BUT can we please analize a VOD together. I bet he won the game and the spelling wasn't the REASON ok and if you continue loosing from zerg that i clame you can win them without to spend for upgrates you will never have the chanse to play with Flash and if this ever happen by accident then you will never have the UNITS in the right TIME to match him trust me on this one, Jaedong hade the same problem in the 3rd game you know it?
Stork lost by a zerg you know i spend TIME to watch the VOD with him i will never do this mistake again i can always wait for the next Snow game.
Don't get me rong i'm Flash BIG fun and i like to see him Flush you down the toilet but now i became a Snow fun also and i HOPE the next theat will be "how we can beat Snow" but even then i will find noone to talk about how he won or how you lost the game couse in the end i read always the same and the same shit "how many probs he has in the gass", "he used 14cc again", etc VERY and really 'ussefull' things I HATE TO READ over and over again and again.
Gtks, you really don't have basic understanding in any of Protoss match up. How can you compare PvT with PvZ? Both match up played in different manner and use different unit combination. For example dragoon is staple in PvT doesn't compulsory in PvZ except counter lurker play. and Corsair which is owning in PvZ is useless in PvT. Not to mention there are different attack timing window for these two match up.
And you seems don't understand why Flash is imba in TvP. It's because Flash have monster macro and timing sense that making him fearsome in TvP. Imagine a scenario like this, You met a Terran which have almost impenetrable defenses. If you attack his defense position carelessly. You lose almost the whole army with Terran suffered minimum losses. Terran rally whole of his force to your main base without giving you enough time to replenish sufficient amount unit to defend the push. That's GG for you.If both player macro up until 200/200 late game.Protoss will have to meet almost unstoppable Terran mech push and still met inevitable GG. The question in this thread how to break Flash's mech army defense or break 200/200 Terran mech ball in late game. In this case OP suggest using Mind Control to create 300/300 Protoss/Terran army to combat with it.
To be honest, for me it seems like you just trolling no offense. The thing that you HATE TO READ is the most important basic for understanding in Starcraft game because build order can affect your tech and attack timing.
I don't want to imagine your senario my frient i asked you to analyze a VOD NOTHING else don't keep on trying to change our subject is very difficult to see a 200/200 Pro game with this kind of gameplay almost never get that far unless, Flash like to TEST something 'new' to win that i made clear i never like.
The TIME to build a building or the TIME to build a unit is ALWAYS the SAME and to PvP and to PvT, PvZ, the away to loose the game can always be the same but some may never see it, I also see almost the same units to be played in all Protoss senarios, Flash is trying diffrent build up from game to game see the 3-0 games to Jaedong.
The quastion to this Threat was CAN we use MIND Controll to steel an SCV from Flash you never wrote your oppinion about that. Is it possible to be done in 20 min PRO GAME ? Are there minerals and gass to support this move in the MAPs their playing? You will ask Flash and the Funs in the room to wait for you to get a 300/300 army? CALCULATED ANSWERE and i'm smart enought to refuse to do the calculations in YOUR IMAGINARY senario.
You always missing the TIME issue something i never did in my posts, i wrote i need 3 raiver time to build and cost. NOTHING else can be helpfull trust me on this.
Time to build a building is same in all match up. But the unit and the time you getting the tech doesn't.In PvZ, zeal/dragoon army suck balls against mass zerglings and hydras. Unlike PvT you can use zeal/dragoon army in the entire game.
Mind Control stealing the SCV is not practical. Why? Earlier posts already stated the reason. Go check it out. Basically I'm more agree in using Psi Storm+Stasis combo to break Terran 200/200 late game mech army. This is can be another option for Protoss to beat the Terran late game army aside using Carrier Tech that more vulnerable for Terran timing push.
The reason I'm feeling that you're trolling is you're trying to stray the topic out of the subject, Why analyze PvZ VOD for PvT gameplay? They both play in different way. Like someone asking for help in TvP and all you do is give him TvZ VOD for him to study and analyze it. What's the point for that?
Couse STORK did't USE RAIVERS NOWERE and lost from a zerg that i CLAME you can beat with NO UPGRADES. Also i dont see any diffrence to the UNITS that protoss using in their games i mean really. Flash did use 3 diffrent ways to won jaedong you don't agree and to that then lest drop it. ok ?
On June 06 2010 17:42 Gtks wrote: Couse STORK did't USE RAIVERS NOWERE and lost from a zerg that i CLAME you can beat with NO UPGRADES. Also i dont see any diffrence to the UNITS that protoss using in their games i mean really. Flash did use 3 diffrent ways to won jaedong you don't agree and to that then lest drop it. ok ?
User was temp banned for this post.
uhm, i hope this is the result of using google translator .. otherwise :-/
Though I'm pretty sure it is difficult to pull off, MC is an awesome idea.
Siege tanks to stop slow pushes and vulture raids and forcing terran to play TvT style, siege recalls, instant upgrades!!! The latter alone makes it cost effective if pulled off imho.
no offence but they also claimed i was trying to misslead them!? The interesting part in the above link someone from Malaysia was trying to convince me that Flash wanted a 2nd factory when he was building a 2nd Starport!? In the beggin i was trying to handle polite his clames but in the end i wrote the things they way that was, sorry about it.
The most interesting part is Flash lost a TvT game with a move that is done to a PvP game and someone from Malaysia refusing to analyze that move to a threat was searching a way to beat Flash.
The funny part the above link was another Flash vs Ruby game.
I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
going for a lategame mind control is even harder than going for a midgame. theres probably a better chance of success if you mc in the midgame and play tvt, while turtling and grabing bases. Then just build up a protoss army and go for a 400/400 army. Then just all-in attack with the 400/400 army and hope
On June 29 2010 05:48 vishrut wrote: going for a lategame mind control is even harder than going for a midgame. theres probably a better chance of success if you mc in the midgame and play tvt, while turtling and grabing bases. Then just build up a protoss army and go for a 400/400 army. Then just all-in attack with the 400/400 army and hope
I doubt a player would ever have enough resources to manage both a toss and terran army.
It brings a smile to my face when i see gtks saying "I am done with this" on this thread like 1293009 different times and still come back to post on it. Oh, and he said that on all his posts in the thread he linked us to too.
It brings an even bigger smile to my face when i see that same guy magically blurring the line that seperate TvT, TvP, PvT, and PvZ. And maybe some PvP in there too, with his Greekish.
Anyway, MC is bad. You could get an scv if you're lucky (I honestly have NO idea where you could get an SCV with MC) if you tech MC directly from DT rush or DT expand. But then Flash sees the DA with MC, knows that your tech and unit counts blow balls, and roll you over with what he has or mass and timing push when you try to tech the Terran tech tree.
If you MC lategame (which is almost impossible because 1. you have to push into an expansion full of SCVs to get them, and being able to push somewhere is one of the problems anyway or 2. you try to drop the DA with a shuttle and find it impossible because of the turrets he build the moment he scanned the archive), you prolly won't have the time to do anything with it anyway because Flash would already be somewhere close to 200/200 and ready to push you. Plus, it takes money, which you may not have.
On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Lets get away from the gimmicks and just think about the basics. Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. One cute trick would be to stasis something at a ramp or choke in front of the facts to prevent reinforcements, which is often a problem as vultures race out to clean up units.
I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
There is that UMS, it's called the "saved game"
And I agree that it's terran positioning that get better; it's just counter-intuitive to think that all protoss players suddenly decide to de-volve.
It's no problem though, bisu will revolutionizes PvT and makes it heavily imbalanced for Protoss.
On June 10 2010 04:35 Reborn8u wrote: I've been wondering about the possibilities of using disruption web to crack the defense. It would allow an arbiter to pass through turrets late game for recalls and the sairs would crush science vessels. It would take control on Bisu's level to pull off if it is even possible to do against flash at all.
Goon/Sair is an oldschool and hard build to pull off. Sairs dont really kill science vessels very quickly at all either, they just speed off backwards and take too many hits. Arbiters usually get through a turret line anyway unless its ridiculously packed, if you were really worried about it you may as well get hallucination. The only use for them is against a mid-game push with webs instead of stasis and a lot of goons, then probably a transition into carriers if you manage to break the push but it's not really very good.
Personally i just think storms need to make more of a comeback in PvT and less wasted recalls, the top terrans are far too good at cleaning them up now to the point where a lot of the time it wasn't worth the cost of units+arbiter. Get arbiters lategame anyway but just use them all for stasis. I think the progamers push-breaking ability has either got worse or more likely, terrans multitasking and positioning has improved. I don't know if they do this already (pretty sure they don't) but i think a good idea would be making pre-set up already max'd out PvT situations on the maps and playing them UMS. This will specifically help them practice flanking and taking out the terran push, so they can repeatedly attempt this without playing so many games. And of course that helps the terran practice partner as well. Considering a lot of the time these days Protoss has great macro and mechanics but dies or gets disadvantage due to this one engagement, it would be helpful to have this kind of targeted practice imo.
There is that UMS, it's called the "saved game"
And I agree that it's terran positioning that get better; it's just counter-intuitive to think that all protoss players suddenly decide to de-volve.
It's no problem though, bisu will revolutionizes PvT and makes it heavily imbalanced for Protoss.
In the near future.
Yeah i'm aware of savegame but it doesn't sound like they make use of it, from interviews and what you see on the shows it just looks like they play full games all the time. I think trying to break a push 100 times would be more useful than 10 full games considering how much of that time spent on full games is just likely standard play.
On June 29 2010 07:07 JayDee_ wrote: What about going crazy with arbs, storms and ground units?
Crazy where? By the time you have all that Flash is already entrenched. Plus, a multitask battle is something not many has the skill or the gut to do against Flash.
skip ahead to the 7:25 mark, I've been doing this for years lolol :-D
great approach =)
TvP right now has a lot to do with arbiters anyways. toss are starting to tech straight to arbiters instead of getting templar, and you need templar archives for arbiterse anyways,
so the only extra thing you need is mind control + DA, which is 150/150 for the MC upgrade, and 125/100x2 for the DA. seems doable. Toss is always maxed out with tons of extra cash anyways.
On June 29 2010 10:53 anch wrote: I thought the bump of this thread was to mock Flash. Crazy game on KT vs WjS last night. Flash vs Free on Match Point.
i believe this is called the royal stove strategy and it has been done. its kind of like a crazy combo build and results with the toss winning by recalling 15+ sieged tanks into the terran main as they dont unsiege when they are recalled.
skip ahead to the 7:25 mark, I've been doing this for years lolol :-D
great approach =)
TvP right now has a lot to do with arbiters anyways. toss are starting to tech straight to arbiters instead of getting templar, and you need templar archives for arbiterse anyways,
so the only extra thing you need is mind control + DA, which is 150/150 for the MC upgrade, and 125/100x2 for the DA. seems doable. Toss is always maxed out with tons of extra cash anyways.
K, so you get the scv, then what?
The time and money it takes to tech to the terran tree is quite a bit, and that is a problem that exists in any stages of the game. As a protoss playing against Flash, you are running on a countdown that pointed toward his 200/200 push. If you spent money to tech with your scv early, you are either giving flash a nice timing window to attack with the sh!t that he has (because of the money spent and delayed arbs/storms/anything that cost gas) or to just macro the shit out of his army without a care in the world. You do it later and his 200/200 comes anyway before you get anything out of that scv.
Some guy watching games in his room obviously has thought up a foolproof strategy that entire korean teams/companies haven't thought up yet. Maybe he will get hired as a coach with this obviously viable strategy.
There's another thing toss can do. I'm noticing that a LOT of progamers clump their arbiters in lategame, which means that 1 good EMP can prevent several statises. They've got to spread their arbiters so that terran would need to spend a lot more effort in preventing statises or else risk half their army disappearing. Oh, and imagine that with hallucination lategame. It's gonna force terran to waste their vessels' mana and allow arbiters to fly deeper into the terran ball to statis the stuff in the back without dying to goliath fire.
I love to use storms vs terran and I really don't get why sometimes pro Ps try to break pushes without them. Storm cuts through terran armies and can reach units in the back ranks of the terran army......imo it's the best weapon vs terran.
Lockdown is actually a pretty good counter to shuttle play, and to a lesser extent arbiters, so it may not always be a good idea to carry HTs in shuttles (this is another spell that I think terran progamers should definitely use to make their play better....plus lockdown hard counters carriers anyways...which is why I like RuBy's TvP :D )
On June 29 2010 12:39 Yferi wrote: There's another thing toss can do. I'm noticing that a LOT of progamers clump their arbiters in lategame, which means that 1 good EMP can prevent several statises. They've got to spread their arbiters so that terran would need to spend a lot more effort in preventing statises or else risk half their army disappearing. Oh, and imagine that with hallucination lategame. It's gonna force terran to waste their vessels' mana and allow arbiters to fly deeper into the terran ball to statis the stuff in the back without dying to goliath fire.
I love to use storms vs terran and I really don't get why sometimes pro Ps try to break pushes without them. Storm cuts through terran armies and can reach units in the back ranks of the terran army......imo it's the best weapon vs terran.
Lockdown is actually a pretty good counter to shuttle play, and to a lesser extent arbiters, so it may not always be a good idea to carry HTs in shuttles (this is another spell that I think terran progamers should definitely use to make their play better....plus lockdown hard counters carriers anyways...which is why I like RuBy's TvP :D )
EMP war is already a normal part of pvt.
As for lockdown.... Gretorp has been advocating it for God knows how long, but that is for stopping arbs from recalling. Shuttle plays come too early for lockdown to be teched, and if you try to rush lockdown toss can just grab like 2 expo or 1a2a3a your nat.
Yes, but the problem is many tosses DON'T spread their arbiters out well enough. So 1 mistake = most/all their arbiters get screwed.
On June 29 2010 12:45 O-ops wrote: As for lockdown.... Gretorp has been advocating it for God knows how long, but that is for stopping arbs from recalling. Shuttle plays come too early for lockdown to be teched, and if you try to rush lockdown toss can just grab like 2 expo or 1a2a3a your nat.
This was talking about an earlier idea (HTs in shuttles). I was referring to building ghosts in lategame, if the toss decides to carry his HTs around in a shuttle. It'll be pretty hard to counter them otherwise...unless you wanna build a bunch of gols and put them at the front of your army where they'll be the first to die just to snipe a shuttle. In early/mid game tosses don't have shuttles full of HTs x_x
On June 29 2010 12:45 O-ops wrote:
Pros do use storms when they try to break pushes, just not that extreme.
Yeah, but not all the time. Imo they should use it....almost everytime The gas is definitely worth it.
EPT
Flash? Because he is the best and his tvp as of the moment is perfected. His play has no holes in the early game and he is able to expand on par with protoss because he is so darn good at defending. It seems that toss has no way of beating Flash in the late game. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Project_Revolution_Dark_Archon.gif)
But it would be sexy as hell if someone did it once (would love to see Flash's face once he realizes his opponent has tanks XD), and I would definitely become a fan of the player who did it. 
. But he made zerglings for the (also stolen) defilers to consume 
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