EPTHow Protoss can beat Flash - Page 7
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NguN
Australia1322 Posts
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Random_0
United States1163 Posts
And this would allow an unlimited resource Protoss to take out a 3/3 200 supply Terran army. | ||
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 10:30 dhe95 wrote: If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army. Why are you making it seem like I'm trying to get toss to play tvt with Flash? The point is not to switch to T units all together but only use seige tanks to compliment the P army with excess minerals and gas. Just 10 seige tanks can greatly improve P's chance because P gains positional advantage and is able to secure bases. You keep and reinforce your maxed P ground army no matter what and whatever more you have make tanks. simple. | ||
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JDforever
China69 Posts
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kidcrash
United States624 Posts
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 10:36 LunarDestiny wrote: People come up with this kind of stuff when they play too much UMS or too much BGH. Nope hardly play either. You've never maxed in a game and had money left over? You must be a z player that doesn't undertand pvt | ||
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JDforever
China69 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On May 13 2010 10:44 Pliers wrote: Nope hardly play either. You've never maxed in a game and had money left over? You must be a z player that doesn't undertand pvt this strat will only work if the protoss if very ahead of terran, like 6 base protoss to 2 base terran i remember there was this game by non pros where the protoss did this strategy when he was ahead, but the terran made a comeback and protoss lost the game in the end | ||
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jiabung
United States720 Posts
I'm sure if someone suggested blinding observers with medics on match point as a viable strat everyone would be shitting all over the guy. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On May 13 2010 10:46 JDforever wrote: Protoss need a new hero! Or an old hero, like Reach or Nal_rA coming back to KTF  About op : I think the best strat, especially in greedy game like during the Flash vs Pure serie, is to double recall, just before the terran has too many vessels. If you have 1 arb with full mana, and another with 150, you can double recall + stasis ramp.. gg | ||
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 10:56 jiabung wrote: I don't like how so many people are dismissing this idea, based on terrible theorycrafting... It's like people are so ingrained into current trends that if progamers aren't doing it, it isn't worth trying. I'm sure if someone suggested blinding observers with medics on match point as a viable strat everyone would be shitting all over the guy. Thank you. I need a TL forum veteran to endorse this thread ever so slightly for it be taken seriously. I get the whole 'forum cred' thing but it's ridiculous how many people decide to post before reading through the thread. | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
In your case, the dark archon is not a cheap units. It requires 2 dt: combination of 250/200. That is a lot. Then you have to drop 2 dark archon in to your opponent's base, then use the ever so precious energy on the arbiter for recall. A shuttle and 100 energy on the arbiter wasted. AND then you have to rebuild the terran tech tree... the cost of the buildings, supply depots, and tanks. That is a ton of money. Think what you can with those wasted money. A LOT. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the standard protoss strategy: build tons of gateways and do series of chain attacks. Even though Flash is a marco beast, but terran is always a terran. It takes a while for terrans to rebuild their army. If the protoss can keep up with the pressure, the terran can't hold for long. | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On May 13 2010 06:42 Severedevil wrote: If Terran is turtling on 4-5 bases, stealing an SCV --> tanks is perfectly reasonable- and another reasonable thing to do is to build SCVs to replace some of your probes and free up food for your army. It is NOT a reasonable response to a 3-base Terran 200/200 push. I tend to think Protoss have been relying too heavily on rushing carriers/arbiters instead of setting up a roaring economy and getting upgrades first. However, I would like to see more speed shuttle use. If Protoss switches to carriers after maxing out, without having already invested into their upgrades, they deserve the loss. That's just terrible decision making. I'm not convinced Mind Control is a good choice, except to steal a worker, though. DA eats more supply and money than any unit Terran fields against Protoss. However, one DA to zap vessels certainly sounds worthwhile, and once you have unlimited funds you could certainly add mind control and +50 mana. Bottom line, I don't think Protoss needs to employ new gimmicks... they just need to employ the old gimmicks better and without making really dumb decisions. (Recalling into a 3-base, defensive Terran... dropping templars in front of vultures... killing off half their army for nothing, just to free up food for a carrier switch... playing 0-0-0 fifteen minutes into the game... stacking arbiters for an EMP... engaging the Terran ball without flanking it first...) I agree that Protoss doesn't need any new tricks to win versus Terran. *cough cough* imba! :p But I think carriers are "gimmicky" in the sense that (1) you need a ton of resources (2) you need a lategame advantage to survive long enough (3) the longer they are unscouted the more potent (4) there is a large window of opportunity before you reach critical mass (5) you can't transition out of a mass carriers strat. With this in mind, yeah you could win just from better arbiter usage and conventional tactics - but if you have the ability to get away with mass carriers in a game, what else could you have gotten away with? Hell, if Terran had bank the way toss does he could mass battlecruisers, nukes, whatever the hell he wants - and he can justify its strategic value later. Protoss typically have strong map control in the late game and a huge bank of resources, so they can either spend it on more arbiters and more zealot/goon/templar - but they also have ample resources to mix in whatever else they may need. I think dark archons are a good addition to this unit composition. | ||
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Deleted User 30223
3104 Posts
On May 13 2010 11:19 LunarDestiny wrote: Using Medic's blind ability is not a super uncommon thing. First, getting medic and researching the blind ability is very easy and is in the terran's tech path. A medic cost 50/25, very cheap. It's target is the observer which is cost 25 minerals and more importantly, the 75 gas. The blind and wraith combo is a choice that the terran can use if the protoss goes carriers. In your case, the dark archon is not a cheap units. It requires 2 dt: combination of 250/200. That is a lot. Then you have to drop 2 dark archon in to your opponent's base, then use the ever so precious energy on the arbiter for recall. A shuttle and 100 energy on the arbiter wasted. AND then you have to rebuild the terran tech tree... the cost of the buildings, supply depots, and tanks. That is a ton of money. Think what you can with those wasted money. A LOT. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the standard protoss strategy: build tons of gateways and do series of chain attacks. Even though Flash is a marco beast, but terran is always a terran. It takes a while for terrans to rebuild their army. If the protoss can keep up with the pressure, the terran can't hold for long. idk. i think you're overexaggerating the cost here. this is late game we're talking about, and at this point in the game, it shouldn't be that much more of an investment. assuming you're at or near 200/200, the income should start surplusing, and you can only do so much with it. also, we're not talking about 400 food army here. just enough tanks to be able to secure a position on the terran. plus, you don't have to worry about getting scvs and all that, since you're already getting income from probes, which brings out the tanks a lot quicker. against flash, this would obviously be a different story, since it's extremely hard to secure a base against him, but as a strategy itself when you find yourself stuck in lategame, it's not that impossible to pull off. oh, and in regards to your last statement, that's a terrible argument and mindset. terran is always a terran? what the fuck? | ||
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Nal_rAwr
United States2611 Posts
this is actually quite good in PvT i, D level toss/terran, beat a B- terran with my own BO shuttle with reaver and 2 zealots used to mess with siege tanks, and bring in some goons when its safe to walk in and break actually if you got bonjwa control like nal_ra or nony or me, reaver+shuttle+2zeal can kill like 5 siege tanks and SCV's depending on positioning and micro | ||
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LunarDestiny
United States4177 Posts
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29 fps
United States5725 Posts
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Pliers
Canada42 Posts
On May 13 2010 11:50 LunarDestiny wrote: My last statement is that Flash is a terran player. He can is still bind by the weakness of terran: the slow replacement of the army. If the protoss have 20+ unstop, pumping gateways. The terran ball would ultimately falls. You're underestimating Flash and late game terran... Which toss player doesn't have 20+ gatesways in late game? Heck, by late game Flash will have 20 factories. Have you seen the Flash vs Pure supply graphs? P can't rely on the fact that they can replenish faster when T suffers minor losses and is able to max again immediately as well. Oh they'll be seiged up in your natural too by the time you new units come out. | ||
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