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On November 16 2011 02:14 Baptista wrote:
i don't know details about savior case but in my opinion the case of restricting some content (in fact a sort of censorship) should be public case and community as a whole should decide about this stuff. We should vote.
TL is not, and has never been, a democracy. I'm with you on disagreeing, but it is not up to us.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:16 gds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:12 QuothTheRaven wrote:On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here. I'm being prevented from watching him until someone tells me how I can find his (re)stream  Do you really think that anyone will restream savior if it's not listed on TL? Banning his stream on TL means nobody can watch him anymore, simple as that, and the admins knows it.
what the fuck?
you can't watch him on TL, simple as that, doesn't mean that you can't watch him on stream websites like twitch, ustream and livestream etc..if you can't get your lazy ass to go to these sites and find these restreams then what kind of a dedicated viewer are you?
I've been streaming savior during his first streaming series, so did nanashin, PUPATREE and kiante.
if I stream savior I will update my stream thread linkin to my twitch page and also update my twitter too.
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Please allow restreams of him. It is very interesting viewing.
As far as I can tell banning restreaming him is based on the moral argument that he was a filthy cheater. That's true, but he got punished for that. I feel this decision is punishing us viewers rather than him.
It is after all your site, but I would like to see this decision reversed. Please reconsider.
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BLinD-RawR: You'll not be able to watch him because nobody will stream him anymore as TL is the place to be if you want to talk about BW. Banned on TL means zero viewers. Is it being a lazy ass to say that?
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On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:04 annul wrote:
and when idra got 90day'd from TL his streams were fine going up because "TL is a place of information and the visitors care about his stream and to not show them when it is on is a disservice to the viewers." Idra was banned for his attitude. Savior was banned for belittling the competition and the entire Esports scene. Huge difference. You know when the TSL 2 cheaters were caught, they were black listed from TL for a year? It's completely in line that someone like Savior be banned from TL. This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I am a bit confused by this. There is a gigantic difference between a one year black list versus a ban of all content forever. Obviously, there was a sizable difference between what they did, cheating in a few matches in one tournament versus fixing a number of matches over a longer period of time. But to say that you can't show any content of a player forever does not seem proportional to me.
You can say he did damage to the professional BW scene, (I do not believe he did any sizable damage to the rest of the Esports scene), and while that is certainly true, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much damage he did cause. Certainly more than the TSL 2 players, but isn't the measure of exactly how much an arbitrary consideration?
Why shouldn't this work retroactively, removing all Savior content that's ever been posted on TL? Is there really any difference between supporting him through new content or supporting him through exisiting content?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:26 gds wrote:
BLinD-RawR: You'll not be able to watch him because nobody will stream him anymore as TL is the place to be if you want to talk about BW. Banned on TL means zero viewers. Is it being a lazy ass to say that?
people will stream if there is demand,people will work around this policy,I will work around this policy,if you don't want to watch my stream because it won't be on TL then you clearly don't want to watch savior at all.
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Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player.
from God of the Battlefield: Part 1
viewers wants restreams to watch savior the ex-bonjwa. it has nothing to do with supporting savior the match-fixer.
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This decision doesn't make sense. I could understand not featuring sAviOr himself, but not featuring restreams just takes content away from viewers, some guy restreaming sAviOr doesn't really do anything for him at all.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:30 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Show nested quote +Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player. from God of the Battlefield: Part 1 viewers wants restreams to watch savior the ex-bonjwa. it has nothing to do with supporting savior the match-fixer.
unfortuantely supporting one still supports the other, I don't enjoy streaming him, for me its always been about viewership when it came to streaming savior.
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On November 16 2011 02:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:30 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player. from God of the Battlefield: Part 1 viewers wants restreams to watch savior the ex-bonjwa. it has nothing to do with supporting savior the match-fixer. unfortuantely supporting one still supports the other, I don't enjoy streaming him, for me its always been about viewership when it came to streaming savior.
in that case tl should just get rid of everything savior. starting with the tl edit.
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On November 16 2011 02:14 Grettin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here. Don't think that is exactly the case. Haypro for example. It's just what Savior did is much bigger than any other person has done. I'm fine with the "streaming ban", but I would still like to discuss about it and possibly link any re-streamers or VoDs of him. (I.e the savior thread which got locked)
I said "someone" not all people. I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it... but the fact that they are doing it doesn't seem so outrageous. What he did was by no means right, and a lot worse than some foreigners map hacking. That is not to say map hacking isn't a big deal, but it is a whole different level. Comparing map hacking to match fixing (and therefore cheating people out of money) is honestly a joke.
On November 16 2011 02:12 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here. I'm being prevented from watching him until someone tells me how I can find his (re)stream
Lol what? Since when did TL have the obligation to inform you of all streams on the internet. You can go find it elsewhere. You aren't being prevented, you are just too lazy to go ask somewhere else like on reddit or maybe wellplayed.
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On November 16 2011 02:37 Chicane wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:14 Grettin wrote:On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here. Don't think that is exactly the case. Haypro for example. It's just what Savior did is much bigger than any other person has done. I'm fine with the "streaming ban", but I would still like to discuss about it and possibly link any re-streamers or VoDs of him. (I.e the savior thread which got locked) I said "someone" not all people. I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with it... but the fact that they are doing it doesn't seem so outrageous. What he did was by no means right, and a lot worse than some foreigners map hacking. That is not to say map hacking isn't a big deal, but it is a whole different level. Comparing map hacking to match fixing (and therefore cheating people out of money) is honestly a joke..
Sorry, i misunderstood you there. My bad.
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My proposition to come to a compromise that can solve the issue:
- Create an official "Afreeca streams" thread were people can post when/what they are restreaming, that way the name of savior isnt constantly seen in the broodwar forum.
- Streamers that want to restream savior are not allowed to turn their stream 'live' so their streams will not apear in the list.
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On November 16 2011 02:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:30 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player. from God of the Battlefield: Part 1 viewers wants restreams to watch savior the ex-bonjwa. it has nothing to do with supporting savior the match-fixer. unfortuantely supporting one still supports the other, I don't enjoy streaming him, for me its always been about viewership when it came to streaming savior.
Really that's somewhat hypocritical, you say you don't enjoy streaming him and you don't want to support him for what he's done (match fixing and introducing other people to it, but not broking afaik) but you stream him for the viewership still? How is that not indirectly supporting him one way or the other..
I'm against the savior ban since I see him streaming as a way of amending his mistakes even if he is benefitting from it, but really my opinion doesn't matter (though I am sure atleast some people in the staff has the same view as me, but they were probally overruled, and I can see why).
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On November 16 2011 02:29 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 01:04 annul wrote:
and when idra got 90day'd from TL his streams were fine going up because "TL is a place of information and the visitors care about his stream and to not show them when it is on is a disservice to the viewers." Idra was banned for his attitude. Savior was banned for belittling the competition and the entire Esports scene. Huge difference. You know when the TSL 2 cheaters were caught, they were black listed from TL for a year? It's completely in line that someone like Savior be banned from TL. This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you. I'm not trying to be rude, but I am a bit confused by this. There is a gigantic difference between a one year black list versus a ban of all content forever. Obviously, there was a sizable difference between what they did, cheating in a few matches in one tournament versus fixing a number of matches over a longer period of time. But to say that you can't show any content of a player forever does not seem proportional to me. You can say he did damage to the professional BW scene, (I do not believe he did any sizable damage to the rest of the Esports scene), and while that is certainly true, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much damage he did cause. Certainly more than the TSL 2 players, but isn't the measure of exactly how much an arbitrary consideration? Why shouldn't this work retroactively, removing all Savior content that's ever been posted on TL? Is there really any difference between supporting him through new content or supporting him through exisiting content?
Nobody is going to pretend his accomplishments as a player have gone away because that would be stupid. He was one of the greatest players ever. He earned those accomplishments legitimately and everyone loved him for it. On the other hand, what he did was absolutely despicable and it seems very reasonable to me that a website dedicated to Starcraft should refuse to support him in any way instead of just covering our eyes and pretending it never happened.
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On November 16 2011 02:40 gds wrote:
My proposition to come to a compromise that can solve the issue:
- Create an official "Afreeca streams" thread were people can post when/what they are restreaming, that way the name of savior isnt constantly seen in the broodwar forum.
- Streamers that want to restream savior are not allowed to turn their stream 'live' so their streams will not apear in the list.
I concur, sounds good and reasonable to me. (Yep, it's not our decision at all, but still)
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On November 15 2011 22:47 gCgCrypto wrote:
maby someone could answer this for me: If SaviOr would start playing sc2 (not saying i would beleve it in eny way or even wish for it cuz i enjoy his sc1 streams, vid a LOT) would he be automaticly banned for SC2 esports aswell or is it just SC1.
Depends. Would tournaments seriously allow a proven cheater?
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On November 16 2011 02:42 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:29 TheToast wrote:On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 01:04 annul wrote:
and when idra got 90day'd from TL his streams were fine going up because "TL is a place of information and the visitors care about his stream and to not show them when it is on is a disservice to the viewers." Idra was banned for his attitude. Savior was banned for belittling the competition and the entire Esports scene. Huge difference. You know when the TSL 2 cheaters were caught, they were black listed from TL for a year? It's completely in line that someone like Savior be banned from TL. This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you. I'm not trying to be rude, but I am a bit confused by this. There is a gigantic difference between a one year black list versus a ban of all content forever. Obviously, there was a sizable difference between what they did, cheating in a few matches in one tournament versus fixing a number of matches over a longer period of time. But to say that you can't show any content of a player forever does not seem proportional to me. You can say he did damage to the professional BW scene, (I do not believe he did any sizable damage to the rest of the Esports scene), and while that is certainly true, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much damage he did cause. Certainly more than the TSL 2 players, but isn't the measure of exactly how much an arbitrary consideration? Why shouldn't this work retroactively, removing all Savior content that's ever been posted on TL? Is there really any difference between supporting him through new content or supporting him through exisiting content? Nobody is going to pretend his accomplishments as a player have gone away because that would be stupid. He was one of the greatest players ever. He earned those accomplishments legitimately and everyone loved him for it. On the other hand, what he did was absolutely despicable and it seems very reasonable to me that a website dedicated to Starcraft should refuse to support him in any way instead of just covering our eyes and pretending it never happened.
I'm not suggesting that we pretend it didn't happen. In fact I'm not suggesting anything, I'm questioning whether the action is proportional based on the actions taken against other players for past misconduct; and whether his contributions to the entire SC community should not be taken into account when considering the actions to take against him.
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On November 16 2011 02:48 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:42 Rostam wrote:On November 16 2011 02:29 TheToast wrote:On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 01:04 annul wrote:
and when idra got 90day'd from TL his streams were fine going up because "TL is a place of information and the visitors care about his stream and to not show them when it is on is a disservice to the viewers." Idra was banned for his attitude. Savior was banned for belittling the competition and the entire Esports scene. Huge difference. You know when the TSL 2 cheaters were caught, they were black listed from TL for a year? It's completely in line that someone like Savior be banned from TL. This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you. I'm not trying to be rude, but I am a bit confused by this. There is a gigantic difference between a one year black list versus a ban of all content forever. Obviously, there was a sizable difference between what they did, cheating in a few matches in one tournament versus fixing a number of matches over a longer period of time. But to say that you can't show any content of a player forever does not seem proportional to me. You can say he did damage to the professional BW scene, (I do not believe he did any sizable damage to the rest of the Esports scene), and while that is certainly true, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much damage he did cause. Certainly more than the TSL 2 players, but isn't the measure of exactly how much an arbitrary consideration? Why shouldn't this work retroactively, removing all Savior content that's ever been posted on TL? Is there really any difference between supporting him through new content or supporting him through exisiting content? Nobody is going to pretend his accomplishments as a player have gone away because that would be stupid. He was one of the greatest players ever. He earned those accomplishments legitimately and everyone loved him for it. On the other hand, what he did was absolutely despicable and it seems very reasonable to me that a website dedicated to Starcraft should refuse to support him in any way instead of just covering our eyes and pretending it never happened. I'm not suggesting that we pretend it didn't happen. In fact I'm not suggesting anything, I'm questioning whether the action is proportional based on the actions taken against other players for past misconduct; and whether his contributions to the entire SC community should not be taken into account when considering the actions to take against him.
Match fixing is the worst thing you can do in any competitive game or sport (or ESPORT). So, yes, it is absolutely proportional.
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United States22154 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:36 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 OopsOopsBaby wrote:Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player. from God of the Battlefield: Part 1 viewers wants restreams to watch savior the ex-bonjwa. it has nothing to do with supporting savior the match-fixer. unfortuantely supporting one still supports the other, I don't enjoy streaming him, for me its always been about viewership when it came to streaming savior. in that case tl should just get rid of everything savior. starting with the tl edit.
There is a different from looking at the historical savior, from before he did his despicable deeds, to the savior after he committed his crimes. It is ok to look back at his history and praise his genius, it is not ok to support him after what he has done.
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EPT
