Streaming Savior

On November 15 2011 12:08 Hot_Bid wrote:
No, you cannot restream him.

If you do restream him, do not set your stream to "live" on TL or we may remove your stream.

On November 15 2011 14:41 gds wrote:
Yes the starcraft community forgives him and the vast majority of Teamliquid BW forums members want to see him play so why you, the TL staff, are taking a decision against the will of the community?

On November 15 2011 22:41 Garrl wrote:
I really cannot imagine how this discussion went in the admin forum. This isn't in the community of TL's interest, so why are only the few specific admins speaking for the whole community?

On November 15 2011 21:49 Grettin wrote:


Agreed. There isn't any harm opening the thread and let us link/post streams/vods and talk about the games.

On November 15 2011 23:55 ieatjello wrote:
soooo, why cant we give him a second chance, i think the 4 years he has been banned from kespa and stuff is definitely making this d00d sad. in addition, everyone deserves a second chance no? i think it is somewhat short sighted to just ban him completely from TL streamers as its just a proverbial slap in the face. does this mean TL has their hands in kespa? controlled by corporate intrests? where is the 99% of bronzers and silvers that would go to TL office and occupy untill our fallen savior has come backeth? jk. But seriously, i do not see why he should be banned, if the man @#$%! up 4 years ago he should be given the chance to redeem himself. If sports has anything over e-sports right now it would be drama! that's what e-sports is lacking is the tale of heros and villians. Kinda like wrestling but with nerd ballers.

Alas, im done my rant. Warn me for my post and i will be done with my rant.

ty, gl hf

The Jello Man

On November 15 2011 23:55 ieatjello wrote:
If sports has anything over e-sports right now it would be drama! that's what e-sports is lacking is the tale of heros and villians. Kinda like wrestling but with nerd ballers.

The Jello Man

On November 16 2011 00:13 terence158 wrote:


in every sport, if you are caught match fixing, your name is mud and you will never be play professionally again.

match fixing does not fall under the heading of 'villain' in that sense. it falls under the category of 'illegal and bannable offense'

i don't see why it should be any different for esports. streaming is one way for pros to make money, someone who match fixes should never be able to make money from that sport again, and severe punishment discourages others from following in their footsteps.

On November 16 2011 00:22 ieatjello wrote:
How about this gents, I will hold a charity event, im going to invite savior and some other bw bosses. Can i stream it on TL?

On November 15 2011 13:43 gds wrote:
Probulous: what do you know about BW? You registered in march 2011... Savior litterally ruined esport? You dont know what you talking about. If you have an elaborate opinion, even if it's against savior restream, please say it but if you just here to shout clueless statement...

On November 16 2011 00:13 Modesty00 wrote:
LOl this is total crap. Im sure 1 admin hate savior and all others follow him cuz they probably have no soul or balls. I understand to be unfeatured streaming him, but not visible at all WTF u crazy?? This is best zerg player around streaming omg. " u can stream him just not in TL, ur stream need to be offline" WTF u morons that's mean u cant stream him here... How we suppouse to know when and who stream savior,... fucking ** * ** **

Savior's quitting streaming

This Thursday is going to be his last show.
He's quitting because of his studies

[ his message(in korean)] -

On November 16 2011 00:22 ieatjello wrote:
How about this gents, I will hold a charity event, im going to invite savior and some other bw bosses. Can i stream it on TL?

On November 16 2011 01:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:
so what like if we're streaming savior can we announce that we can stream,put a link to our stream,but not go live on TL?

I'm fine with that,don't know why people are so upset.Ma Jae Yoon hurt Esports in one of the worst ways possible, this is unforgivable and from an administration standpoint, it is completely understandable as to why no one wants to promote him.

please don't compare what TT1 did to what MJY did.

On November 16 2011 01:14 DwD wrote:
What the f? Shouldn't people be allowed to choose for themselves if they want to watch or not?
Terrible decision.

On November 16 2011 01:26 bgx wrote:

But you cannot stay true to something in 1 case and deny it on other case. Just because what he did was bigger. Savior playing bw is completely legal, he can stream it, he can talk about, and do whatever he likes with it unless he stays away from professional BW.

I understand banning HIM from streaming here, but i do not understand banning restreams of his play, as he gets ZERO benefit from it. Why people restream him? Because there is demand for it. Why Idra's stream was live on TL while he was banned? Because there was demand for it.

Idra called Cruncher waste of life on stream that was on TL. Does TL support his view that Cruncher is a waste of life? No they banned him for that, yet they made available for his stream to be live, because there was demand for that and as a center hub of western Starcraft they made it available for people. If people wants to see Savior play via restreams, let them see, and put big sticker that TL does not contribute to it but acknowledges people wishes. That would be staying true in my opinion.

On November 16 2011 01:04 annul wrote:
and when idra got 90day'd from TL his streams were fine going up because "TL is a place of information and the visitors care about his stream and to not show them when it is on is a disservice to the viewers."

On November 16 2011 01:28 ieatjello wrote:
Every crime and act of discretion can be absolved. The fact of the matter is kespa won't let him do anything so the paladins of tl follow en mass. I guess we are just boned.

So which charity should I donate to to get this event full swing? I'll post a topic in the proper forum. We are getting savior back.

On November 16 2011 01:14 DwD wrote:
What the f? Shouldn't people be allowed to choose for themselves if they want to watch or not?
Terrible decision.

On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:
To clarify the policy: if someone is playing a single game vs savior, it's okay to resteam that opponent. If it's a practice session (more than one game in a row) it's not okay to bypass the no-Savior rule by streaming that.

On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:
This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you.

On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here.

On November 15 2011 22:41 Garrl wrote:
I really cannot imagine how this discussion went in the admin forum. This isn't in the community of TL's interest, so why are only the few specific admins speaking for the whole community?

On November 16 2011 02:12 QuothTheRaven wrote:

I'm being prevented from watching him until someone tells me how I can find his (re)stream

On November 16 2011 02:14 BLinD-RawR wrote:


I can confirm to you that right now no one is restreaming savior.

On November 16 2011 02:14 Baptista wrote:
i don't know details about savior case but in my opinion the case of restricting some content (in fact a sort of censorship) should be public case and community as a whole should decide about this stuff. We should vote.

On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:

Idra was banned for his attitude. Savior was banned for belittling the competition and the entire Esports scene. Huge difference.

You know when the TSL 2 cheaters were caught, they were black listed from TL for a year? It's completely in line that someone like Savior be banned from TL. This has nothing to do with Korean influence, it's just when you belittle the scene, the scene no longer can officially support you.

Though Savior seriously undermined the institution of e-Sports through his despicable crimes, we must be able to separate his faults as a human being from his accomplishments as a player.

On November 16 2011 02:33 BLinD-RawR wrote:


unfortuantely supporting one still supports the other, I don't enjoy streaming him, for me its always been about viewership when it came to streaming savior.

On November 16 2011 02:14 Grettin wrote:


Don't think that is exactly the case. Haypro for example. It's just what Savior did is much bigger than any other person has done. I'm fine with the "streaming ban", but I would still like to discuss about it and possibly link any re-streamers or VoDs of him. (I.e the savior thread which got locked)

On November 16 2011 02:12 QuothTheRaven wrote:

I'm being prevented from watching him until someone tells me how I can find his (re)stream

On November 16 2011 02:29 TheToast wrote:


I'm not trying to be rude, but I am a bit confused by this. There is a gigantic difference between a one year black list versus a ban of all content forever. Obviously, there was a sizable difference between what they did, cheating in a few matches in one tournament versus fixing a number of matches over a longer period of time. But to say that you can't show any content of a player forever does not seem proportional to me.

You can say he did damage to the professional BW scene, (I do not believe he did any sizable damage to the rest of the Esports scene), and while that is certainly true, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much damage he did cause. Certainly more than the TSL 2 players, but isn't the measure of exactly how much an arbitrary consideration?

Why shouldn't this work retroactively, removing all Savior content that's ever been posted on TL? Is there really any difference between supporting him through new content or supporting him through exisiting content?

On November 15 2011 22:47 gCgCrypto wrote:
maby someone could answer this for me: If SaviOr would start playing sc2 (not saying i would beleve it in eny way or even wish for it cuz i enjoy his sc1 streams, vid a LOT) would he be automaticly banned for SC2 esports aswell or is it just SC1.

On November 16 2011 02:42 Rostam wrote:


Nobody is going to pretend his accomplishments as a player have gone away because that would be stupid. He was one of the greatest players ever. He earned those accomplishments legitimately and everyone loved him for it. On the other hand, what he did was absolutely despicable and it seems very reasonable to me that a website dedicated to Starcraft should refuse to support him in any way instead of just covering our eyes and pretending it never happened.

On November 16 2011 02:48 TheToast wrote:


I'm not suggesting that we pretend it didn't happen. In fact I'm not suggesting anything, I'm questioning whether the action is proportional based on the actions taken against other players for past misconduct; and whether his contributions to the entire SC community should not be taken into account when considering the actions to take against him.

On November 16 2011 02:36 OopsOopsBaby wrote:

in that case tl should just get rid of everything savior. starting with the tl edit.

On November 15 2011 11:02 Manifesto7 wrote:
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you.

On November 16 2011 03:13 Clbull wrote:
This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft.

On November 16 2011 03:33 Iplaythings wrote:

Ver has been quite open about the article being in the makings

This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft.

Apart from iCCup's forums which aren't exactly well known for discussion over happenings in the professional gaming scene, TeamLiquid is the only active Brood War community outside of Korea. Other communities like SCReddit, WellPlayed etc are only really known for covering SC2 related happenings.

I like how TL's stance is like "TL is not going to give him any support in any way", acting as if they alone can tell the TL community as a whole who they can or can't support via what I feel is outright censorship.

Maybe if it were a featured streamer streaming sAviOr's Afreeca games on his channel, then I'd understand why TeamLiquid wouldn't want to officially endorse the restreams of a proven cheater. Point is, I feel that featured streams are more a show of "support" from the TeamLiquid site than just merely allowing the content on your forums.

Hence, I feel like the decision to just outright ban any coverage of sAviOr's streaming is harsh, if not borderline bigotry, especially when the TL moderation are viewing the mere tolerence of this content as "supporting match fixing."

And so what if he's done considerable damage to the game? The damage has been done, he's been punished (via permanent blacklisting from GOMTV and KeSPA sactioned tournaments) and nothing else can change that. Point is he's not exactly cheating anymore, even if he's still a hate figure to many of his former fans.

On November 16 2011 03:18 Rain... wrote:
@gds NOONE wants to watch Savior play b/c hes a dick for getting paid to throw matches and made a shit ton of money off of the trust that the entire Esports community gave to him so jst listen to the modss

On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.

This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.

On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.

This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.

On November 16 2011 04:25 Banana223 wrote:

Which makes the decision ridiculous. If it's split 50/50, the half of the community that actually doesn't benefit in any way from their "side" being taken is the one who gets their way. The half that would benefit (since they want to watch him stream) gets shit on, and no one benefits from anything.

For some, it's not just about having to search through the streams list to find Savior content; barring his content from the featured stream list is seen as symbolic. Savior did for this community and basically invent modern BW (and SC2) gameplay, it could be argued that many of us would not be here if it were for Savior. To forever wipe him from the record, I think, is seen by some as an affront to the roots of BW and this community.

This will happen again and I think it's important to make a determination on exactly what actions are reasonable to take against these players.

On November 16 2011 04:34 Rostam wrote:


They should be banned for life from all events by any organization that cares at all about the integrity of its competition. Simple.

On November 16 2011 04:45 Haydin wrote:
So, to clarify (and I'm serious here, I ONLY want clarification here), it seems like the issue with savior is more that he was a huge figure in esports, and it's really more about weight his named carried that makes his crime unforgivable. Lesser names caught cheating, such as Dimaga, Haypro, and TT1 are all forgivable, since their actions did not actually threaten esports as a whole. Can I take this to mean that even given his recent scandal in the ESV weekly, Slayers_Coca could still stream on TL?

P.S. I also have to say that I love Dimaga Haypro and TT1, so I'm in no way saying they shouldn't be forgiven. I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't. I'm ONLY asking for clarification on how TL deals with pro-gamers who have been caught cheating.

On November 16 2011 04:47 bonifaceviii wrote:

He is; that's why he streams on Afreeca.

This isn't a thread about whether Savior should be invited to the next TSL, it's about whether we can find a restream of him here.

On November 16 2011 04:57 whereismymind wrote:
I agree that you should allow restreams of Savior. I really love TL, but sometimes I really hate it because I really don't see the sense for not allowing this guy here. What do you lose and what do you get by this?

He cheated, It was bad for e-sports, but he deserves second chance, he was still kid.

My opinion.

On November 16 2011 04:50 GMarshal wrote:

I'll just post what I sent to the last person who asked me about savior, since you don't seem to have the background on it:

On November 16 2011 04:34 Rostam wrote:
It's irrelevant since it's not the community's decision to make.

On November 16 2011 04:57 Megaliskuu wrote:
Streaming Ma Bonjwa hurts ESPORTS to the highest degree it can possibly be hurt, therefore I agree with all these other fine folks BLOCK SAVIOR!

+ Show Spoiler +

On November 15 2011 15:07 Manifesto7 wrote:
Just follow the people who will stream savior to get an alert when they are online. Or have them mention it by twitter. That is what I plan to do.

On November 16 2011 05:25 P0ckets wrote:
If you won't show stream of Savior for fixing matches then I believe you should not allow anyone such as CombatEx or Deezer be featured or on stream as well. If you are going to punish one for their poor judgement you should punish them all. Also why is TT1 able to stream he was also a cheater back in the day. I am not saying what he did was right but if your gonna enforce a rule that bans the streams of those who did/do negative things in the community they all should get the same treatment.

Also in light of recent events should Coca and Byun also be removed from the lists of streams?

On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.

This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.

On November 16 2011 05:32 rasers wrote:

yeah dont get it... just because Savior was a huge name its ok for smaller names 2 fuck around and dont get punished or whaT?

but like someone said already. pretty sure the decision was made by mods who dont give a fuck about BW anymore.

But yeah. let it run for like 8 months then close everything... freaking stupid.

On November 16 2011 05:44 Rostam wrote:


I don't know what they intend to do about Coca/Byun but the TT1 comparison keeps popping up and it's absolutely ridiculous. Match fixing is much worse than what he did.

On November 16 2011 03:40 Rostam wrote:


Yes, everyone is bigoted against match fixers. Woe to all match fixers, for they are a repressed group.

Hopefully he's banned for life from TL as well as GomTV and KeSPA.

On November 16 2011 04:50 GMarshal wrote:

I'll just post what I sent to the last person who asked me about savior, since you don't seem to have the background on it:

To truly understand what savior did, you first need to have a history of savior. I don't know how much or how little you know about the history of the situation, and what he did, so I'll give you a rundown. Also I suck at dates, so this is going to be entirely without them.

Now, savior came into the scene at a time in which zerg was being destroyed, terrans and protoss were winning everything, and it looked like there was nothing zerg could do, all the "good" zerg players were ranting, asking for better maps, etc. The situation wasn't just grim, it was despair, no innovation or strategy was working for zerg players. Cue the entrance of Savior, the zerg hero. Savior was not just good, he was fucking indistructible, he was boxer, oov and nada all rolled into one but for zerg. He single handedly took the zerg race from a flubbly laughingstock to a weapon of destruction. A machine that could not be stopped. I can't do Savior's play justice, read Ver's words on it. Savior was a god. Savior was a player that rivaled and perhaps overcame the legends of boxer and nada.

Then, it spilled, rekrul's blog was the first hint that something was amiss. You can read that blog to get an idea of the amount of denial that people were in. Then the news broke. Savior, the hero of the zerg, the savior of the people, the man who was living legend, had just cheated everyone who had beat him out of a legitimate win. He had subverted the entire foundation of esports. I rarely say that someone has hurt esports and mean it, but savior did hurt esports. In fact he is the guy who most hurt esports in its history. This disappointed thousands of starcraft watchers, here on tl and in korea, we didn't know if any results of anything were valid anymore, were all the matches we've seen a sham? If Savior a bonjwa was involved in this, how far could the corruption possibly spread? Was it worth continuing to watch a game where the results were probably rigged?

This man, who was one of the most loved and respected players in all of starcraft had betrayed us. He had single-handedly destroyed any and all faith we could have in the integrity of the game. This was not some B league scrub who was desperate for money, this was a man who was winning OSLs, and he disonhoured himself, his game, and his fans. Sure he was in a slump, but that is irrelevant, he was the Maestro. For many of us it was a question of if starcraft was even worth watching anymore. This was a betrayal on a magnitude never seen before. Because of this he is premabaned by kespa, for this reason there are many, many of us who will never forgive his betrayal. Not because what he did was wrong, but because he had no possible justification for doing it. None. He conspired to destroy the integrity of the game we love

This is also the reason that there will always be a schism between those who maintain that once you have betrayed all your fans you can never go back, and those who look at his brilliant play and say "but he is a genius! doesn't he deserve a second chance?" To be clear, what savior did was not just cheating, where perhaps a second chance might be offered, he legitimately betrayed his fans, his haters and the entire world of bw.

That is also why you will never ever see a civil savior thread.

You simply cannot compare the betrayal that savior perpetuated on us against the win trading and such of people like dimaga. Its like comparing stealing candy with murder.

On November 16 2011 06:12 Clbull wrote:

Some former BW cheaters/maphackers/abusers were welcomed back to TL with open arms because they made an attempt at reforming their old ways.

I understand there is such a thing as making an example, but what about if they try to reform their ways?

Of course sAviOr has no chance of redeeming himself anymore. He's blacklisted for life and everybody holds a hateful grudge against him like some 12 year old. Several lapses in judgement basically cost him his entire career.

Match fixing is unprofessional, and it is illegal.

However, Teamliquid is a Starcraft community and outright banning any discussion or links to sAviOr's stream is a bit harsh for a mere community to do. Besides, TL is not a huge player in the esports scene apart from if you include the separate team and league. Plus, there's no chance in fucking hell TL would ever let sAviOr play in the TSL4 if he were ever to switch to SC2, let alone give him a spot on Team Liquid.

On November 16 2011 06:23 Rostam wrote:


Match fixers can't redeem themselves because of the nature of what they do. A maphacker can prove he's playing legit. You can never prove that you're not match fixing, unless you simply never lose. When you've done it once the question will always be there.



Yes, it's harsh. It should be harsh.

On November 16 2011 06:31 rasers wrote:

and if you win some games legit it means you wont maphack anymore? TT1 can still go back and maphack the shit out of this game. online ofcourse.

On November 16 2011 04:50 GMarshal wrote:

I'll just post what I sent to the last person who asked me about savior, since you don't seem to have the background on it:

To truly understand what savior did, you first need to have a history of savior. I don't know how much or how little you know about the history of the situation, and what he did, so I'll give you a rundown. Also I suck at dates, so this is going to be entirely without them.

Now, savior came into the scene at a time in which zerg was being destroyed, terrans and protoss were winning everything, and it looked like there was nothing zerg could do, all the "good" zerg players were ranting, asking for better maps, etc. The situation wasn't just grim, it was despair, no innovation or strategy was working for zerg players. Cue the entrance of Savior, the zerg hero. Savior was not just good, he was fucking indistructible, he was boxer, oov and nada all rolled into one but for zerg. He single handedly took the zerg race from a flubbly laughingstock to a weapon of destruction. A machine that could not be stopped. I can't do Savior's play justice, read Ver's words on it. Savior was a god. Savior was a player that rivaled and perhaps overcame the legends of boxer and nada.

Then, it spilled, rekrul's blog was the first hint that something was amiss. You can read that blog to get an idea of the amount of denial that people were in. Then the news broke. Savior, the hero of the zerg, the savior of the people, the man who was living legend, had just cheated everyone who had beat him out of a legitimate win. He had subverted the entire foundation of esports. I rarely say that someone has hurt esports and mean it, but savior did hurt esports. In fact he is the guy who most hurt esports in its history. This disappointed thousands of starcraft watchers, here on tl and in korea, we didn't know if any results of anything were valid anymore, were all the matches we've seen a sham? If Savior a bonjwa was involved in this, how far could the corruption possibly spread? Was it worth continuing to watch a game where the results were probably rigged?

This man, who was one of the most loved and respected players in all of starcraft had betrayed us. He had single-handedly destroyed any and all faith we could have in the integrity of the game. This was not some B league scrub who was desperate for money, this was a man who was winning OSLs, and he disonhoured himself, his game, and his fans. Sure he was in a slump, but that is irrelevant, he was the Maestro. For many of us it was a question of if starcraft was even worth watching anymore. This was a betrayal on a magnitude never seen before. Because of this he is premabaned by kespa, for this reason there are many, many of us who will never forgive his betrayal. Not because what he did was wrong, but because he had no possible justification for doing it. None. He conspired to destroy the integrity of the game we love

This is also the reason that there will always be a schism between those who maintain that once you have betrayed all your fans you can never go back, and those who look at his brilliant play and say "but he is a genius! doesn't he deserve a second chance?" To be clear, what savior did was not just cheating, where perhaps a second chance might be offered, he legitimately betrayed his fans, his haters and the entire world of bw.

That is also why you will never ever see a civil savior thread.

You simply cannot compare the betrayal that savior perpetuated on us against the win trading and such of people like dimaga. Its like comparing stealing candy with murder.

On November 16 2011 06:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, what Savior did was magnitudes greater than maphacking or abusing in a tournament. He almost served jail time and what he did was virtually criminal. I see it on the same level of literally stealing money from tournaments or running a scam.

Second, just because we celebrate what he accomplished before his match fixing does not mean we should allow him to do whatever now.

I think it's ridiculous you guys are comparing the situation to a few maphackers and abusers. We banned TT1 for 1.5 years for maphacking. If we were to impose a similar punishment on Savior it'd be a ban for 5+ years given the magnitude of the offense. Does anyone disagree with this?

I'm fine with him streaming in 2016.

On November 16 2011 06:58 corumjhaelen wrote:

You know what ? sAvIOr doesn't care if he's restreamed on TL, he probably does not even know anyone watches him here, and he does not get anything from it. He does not even get publicity, because the only thing you see on TL is the restreamer name.
The only people who are punished by your "ban" are the people who want to watch him play.
The people who could punish him did, and sAviOr punishment was sure harder than TT1.
That being said, I sympathize, and I sure hope he won't be allowed to participate in any tournament. But that has nothing to do with this thread.

On November 16 2011 07:25 Kerotan wrote:

Its not just about punishing savior (he could find out that he gets restreamed, Hiya knows eg.), its more about TL being associated with a person who bought BW to its knees.

On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too?

On November 16 2011 07:59 P0ckets wrote:
Where will Cocoa and Byun stand? It seems pretty obviously that they were fixing games just as Savior had. Will they be punished similarly for partaking in the same act?

On November 16 2011 07:59 P0ckets wrote:
Where will Cocoa and Byun stand? It seems pretty obviously that they were fixing games just as Savior had. Will they be punished similarly for partaking in the same act?

On November 16 2011 08:27 Kerotan wrote:

While its similar, its not really the same, savior was part of concerted effort to fix games for money, involving multiple parties and players. So while sharing some similarities, what Cocoa and Byun did isn't fixing games just as savior did, I think its a simplification too far to say that.
In short, the 2 cases are different, not just in scale, but also in context.

On November 16 2011 09:24 P0ckets wrote:


But a Code A spots can equate to money not only in potential prize money but recognition, sponsorship and such.

On November 16 2011 06:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, what Savior did was magnitudes greater than maphacking or abusing in a tournament. He almost served jail time and what he did was virtually criminal. I see it on the same level of literally stealing money from tournaments or running a scam.

Second, just because we celebrate what he accomplished before his match fixing does not mean we should allow him to do whatever now.

I think it's ridiculous you guys are comparing the situation to a few maphackers and abusers. We banned TT1 for 1.5 years for maphacking. If we were to impose a similar punishment on Savior it'd be a ban for 5+ years given the magnitude of the offense. Does anyone disagree with this?

I'm fine with him streaming in 2016.

On November 16 2011 06:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, what Savior did was magnitudes greater than maphacking or abusing in a tournament. He almost served jail time and what he did was virtually criminal. I see it on the same level of literally stealing money from tournaments or running a scam.

Second, just because we celebrate what he accomplished before his match fixing does not mean we should allow him to do whatever now.

I think it's ridiculous you guys are comparing the situation to a few maphackers and abusers. We banned TT1 for 1.5 years for maphacking. If we were to impose a similar punishment on Savior it'd be a ban for 5+ years given the magnitude of the offense. Does anyone disagree with this?

I'm fine with him streaming in 2016.

On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:

Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history.

On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:

So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers.

Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch.

As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late.


speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect

On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:

No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck,

On November 16 2011 23:26 bonifaceviii wrote:
This has now become the unofficial "who's restreaming Savior" thread.

On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:

No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck, regardless of what you personally took away from watching his play (I don't doubt people learned a thing or two, but that does not mean it was his primary intent). His core values are messed up, and I really doubt that the mods are doing this to punish savior in any way (and it's not like they can, either: like you said, he doesn't benefit from foreigners watching restreams). Rather, it's that his moral fiber does not align with that of the TL community, and the mods chose not to promote his activities. Simple as that. I am part of the BW community, and I don't feel punished by having the streams cut off.

On November 17 2011 00:35 ArvickHero wrote:

You don't feel punished as part of the BW community because you aren't the part where they are trying to actively learn the game to play better, you're just there as a rather uninvolved spectator (do you even play semi-regularly nowadays? doubtful). For many of the rest of us, we feel our minds are blown whenever we see Savior and begin thinking of things we thought previously wasn't possibly for our hands and game. It is undeniable that one of savior's likely intents from streaming is to make some money, but you can't say that is his only intent like I've stated.

He doesn't even make money off the restreams, yet he doesn't ask to stop the restreams. If money-making was his only intent, he would've requested to stop all restreaming activity already as it would interfere with any potential donation or income.

And again, whatever this bullshit about moral fiber is about doesn't work out now how come it wasn't the same policy back when Savior first streamed?

On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:

So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers.

Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch.

As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late.

On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:
As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too.

On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand?

On November 17 2011 01:46 TheToast wrote:


This argument bothers me. Sure, we are not paying to use the site. But the merch we buy and the ad revenue we generate with our web traffic pays the bills at TL. Out blind cheering for TL pro players has created the fan base that sponsors like The Little App Factory are attracted to. In some ways we are the customers here. However, I believe that the mod staff have the duty to do things that they believe are in the best interest of the community even if the majority disagree. I think the real issue is whether this is one of those situations or not.

On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:

Alright I don't want to keep bickering with any particular person about this, so I'm sorry I upset you. Cool? Maybe Savior had other intentions when he first started streaming, who knows, maybe you're right and he really wanted to teach people a thing or two cuz he had a bit of decency after all. I don't play competitively on iccup or fish but I do enjoy lanning with my buddies quite often, and I watch copious amounts of BW so it doesn't feel entirely fair to call me an un-involved spectator :p I love the game just as much as any other joe shcmo out there, but for me personally, I'm not over what Savior did and how he handled the situation in its aftermath, so I'm in agreement with the mods' decision to remove his streams from the TL community. Maybe in like 5 years, but not anytime soon will I want to watch him play BW. As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too.

On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand?

On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:


TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban.

Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2.

And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.

On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:


TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban.

Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2.

And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.

On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:


For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity.

On November 17 2011 02:23 rotinegg wrote:

I can see how the argument bothers you, but again, TL is the provider, and the users come for the benefits that it provides, with neither party holding the other hostage against its will. The monetary benefits that TL receives is a minor side-effect: the mods aren't doing what they do to make bank off of the website, and they don't. If TL decides to cut one of the benefits it provides on its own discretion, I believe they should have the right to do it. That is just my subjective, idealistic opinion, of course :p

On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:


Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much.

Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison.

On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much.

Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison.

On November 17 2011 12:40 TheToast wrote:
Probulous, you should know better than to give into such a blatant trolling attempt
+ Show Spoiler +

On November 17 2011 12:42 rotinegg wrote:

but then in Coca's case it was more like this game doesn't matter to me, but for my friend it does, so just take it, whereas in savior's it was carefully coordinated criminal activity

On November 17 2011 13:29 L3gendary wrote:


So what do people have a problem with exactly? Is it that savior ripped off some people who bet illegally and therefore committed a crime, or is it the integrity of the games that came into question because the fans don't want to spectate games where players throw them?

The legal part of it and starcraft are completely unrelated imo.

On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:
To clarify the policy: if someone is playing a single game vs savior, it's okay to resteam that opponent. If it's a practice session (more than one game in a row) it's not okay to bypass the no-Savior rule by streaming that.

On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:


TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban.

Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2.

And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.

User was warned for this post

On November 17 2011 22:20 Manifesto7 wrote:
I dont get that rule at all, and it wasnt discussed in the staff thread. Dont know where it came from.

On November 17 2011 01:52 Kamais_Ookin wrote:
The ban still stands for any tournament related to GOM or Kespa.

On November 18 2011 03:12 gds wrote:
If i was a mod i would ban Chill for 666 days.

On November 18 2011 01:32 phANT1m wrote:



Awwww dammit. Would be awesome if he switches to Starcraft 2 and maybe starts playing in overseas tournaments since cant really play in Korea. At least I would hope so.

On November 18 2011 05:47 Chill wrote:

Why?

On November 18 2011 16:01 gds wrote:


Because if you see the situation with some perspective it makes no sense, 4 years later, to create no savior rules. As if suddenly it becomes a necessity to shoot on the ambulance. It's a very cheap way to exercise your authority especially when it's toward the old loyal TL fan base who supported this site for years.
That's why i would send you and hot bid and all the other tl staff behind this surreal abuse of power to disneyland for 666 days.

On November 17 2011 16:36 rotinegg wrote:
Hmm... let me try to lay it out as simply as I can without omitting important details...
1) Gambling in any form is illegal in Korea in the first place, except in certified casinos where only foreigners with ID can enter
2) He received commission by purposefully losing games where the betting odds were stacked in his favor
3) He persuaded other progamers who had no idea of matchfixing to join in this illegal activity and brokered their deals
4) He ripped off the progamers he brokered by pocketing chunks of the 'commission' they were promised
5) He denied denied denied and went into hiding, when others who were involved, like hwasin and type-b, apologized. (I believe savior apologized later though)

On November 18 2011 22:41 Chill wrote:
,,,
something very wrong to the scene and TL doesn't want to be associated with him and is suggesting nobody support him. It's the exact same as the no Combat-ex policy - people can still watch and talk about Combat-ex, just not on teamliquid.

On November 18 2011 23:40 Whole wrote:

people should take these facts into consideration and stop comparing it to the likes of TT1, CoCa, and others. Considering the magnitude of what savior did...not because of how popular he is, but because of what he did... i personally feel that he should have a 3-5 year ban on TL...especially considering that the content is still available outside of TL.

On December 26 2011 11:21 Megaliskuu wrote:
So I hear Savior is streaming again, if anyone restreams him, can y'all send me a PM so I can follow your stream, thanks.

On January 02 2012 03:20 Manimal_pro wrote:
very interesting discussion here, what i would like to know is did savior receive a lifetime ban from pro gaming?

because most sporting organizations will issue a suspension, maybe stripping the titles or wins from the cheaters

On January 02 2012 03:20 Manimal_pro wrote:
very interesting discussion here, what i would like to know is did savior receive a lifetime ban from pro gaming?

because most sporting organizations will issue a suspension, maybe stripping the titles or wins from the cheaters