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United States22154 Posts
On November 16 2011 04:45 Haydin wrote:
So, to clarify (and I'm serious here, I ONLY want clarification here), it seems like the issue with savior is more that he was a huge figure in esports, and it's really more about weight his named carried that makes his crime unforgivable. Lesser names caught cheating, such as Dimaga, Haypro, and TT1 are all forgivable, since their actions did not actually threaten esports as a whole. Can I take this to mean that even given his recent scandal in the ESV weekly, Slayers_Coca could still stream on TL?
P.S. I also have to say that I love Dimaga Haypro and TT1, so I'm in no way saying they shouldn't be forgiven. I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't. I'm ONLY asking for clarification on how TL deals with pro-gamers who have been caught cheating.
I'll just post what I sent to the last person who asked me about savior, since you don't seem to have the background on it:
To truly understand what savior did, you first need to have a history of savior. I don't know how much or how little you know about the history of the situation, and what he did, so I'll give you a rundown. Also I suck at dates, so this is going to be entirely without them.
Now, savior came into the scene at a time in which zerg was being destroyed, terrans and protoss were winning everything, and it looked like there was nothing zerg could do, all the "good" zerg players were ranting, asking for better maps, etc. The situation wasn't just grim, it was despair, no innovation or strategy was working for zerg players. Cue the entrance of Savior, the zerg hero. Savior was not just good, he was fucking indistructible, he was boxer, oov and nada all rolled into one but for zerg. He single handedly took the zerg race from a flubbly laughingstock to a weapon of destruction. A machine that could not be stopped. I can't do Savior's play justice, read Ver's words on it. Savior was a god. Savior was a player that rivaled and perhaps overcame the legends of boxer and nada.
Then, it spilled, rekrul's blog was the first hint that something was amiss. You can read that blog to get an idea of the amount of denial that people were in. Then the news broke. Savior, the hero of the zerg, the savior of the people, the man who was living legend, had just cheated everyone who had beat him out of a legitimate win. He had subverted the entire foundation of esports. I rarely say that someone has hurt esports and mean it, but savior did hurt esports. In fact he is the guy who most hurt esports in its history. This disappointed thousands of starcraft watchers, here on tl and in korea, we didn't know if any results of anything were valid anymore, were all the matches we've seen a sham? If Savior a bonjwa was involved in this, how far could the corruption possibly spread? Was it worth continuing to watch a game where the results were probably rigged?
This man, who was one of the most loved and respected players in all of starcraft had betrayed us. He had single-handedly destroyed any and all faith we could have in the integrity of the game. This was not some B league scrub who was desperate for money, this was a man who was winning OSLs, and he disonhoured himself, his game, and his fans. Sure he was in a slump, but that is irrelevant, he was the Maestro. For many of us it was a question of if starcraft was even worth watching anymore. This was a betrayal on a magnitude never seen before. Because of this he is premabaned by kespa, for this reason there are many, many of us who will never forgive his betrayal. Not because what he did was wrong, but because he had no possible justification for doing it. None. He conspired to destroy the integrity of the game we love
This is also the reason that there will always be a schism between those who maintain that once you have betrayed all your fans you can never go back, and those who look at his brilliant play and say "but he is a genius! doesn't he deserve a second chance?" To be clear, what savior did was not just cheating, where perhaps a second chance might be offered, he legitimately betrayed his fans, his haters and the entire world of bw.
That is also why you will never ever see a civil savior thread.
You simply cannot compare the betrayal that savior perpetuated on us against the win trading and such of people like dimaga. Its like comparing stealing candy with murder.
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On November 16 2011 04:47 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:34 Rostam wrote:This will happen again and I think it's important to make a determination on exactly what actions are reasonable to take against these players. They should be banned for life from all events by any organization that cares at all about the integrity of its competition. Simple. He is; that's why he streams on Afreeca. This isn't a thread about whether Savior should be invited to the next TSL, it's about whether we can find a restream of him here.
I realize that, and like I said above, I think it's best that TL doesn't give him any publicity. If people want to see him stream on Afreeca then they're free to use Afreeca.
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personally I think a Savior stream would bridge the gap a little between Sc2 and BW fans...
I would watch Savior stream a lot when right now I only watch SC2
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I agree that you should allow restreams of Savior. I really love TL, but sometimes I really hate it because I really don't see the sense for not allowing this guy here. What do you lose and what do you get by this?
He cheated, It was bad for e-sports, but he deserves second chance, he was still kid.
My opinion.
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Streaming Ma Bonjwa hurts ESPORTS to the highest degree it can possibly be hurt, therefore I agree with all these other fine folks BLOCK SAVIOR!
+ Show Spoiler +JK what the fuck just cuz some mods are upset doesn't mean it has to be ruined for everybody else, those mods who were against having savior on were probably the same ones who dont give a shit about BW anymore anyways so it doesn't affect them. MANI FIGHTING
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On November 16 2011 04:57 whereismymind wrote:
I agree that you should allow restreams of Savior. I really love TL, but sometimes I really hate it because I really don't see the sense for not allowing this guy here. What do you lose and what do you get by this?
He cheated, It was bad for e-sports, but he deserves second chance, he was still kid.
My opinion.
20+ years old isn't a kid, sorry.
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Yeah, that's a bit of an understatement of his actions. Savior really brought pro Starcraft into disrepute.
But it survived.
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On November 16 2011 04:50 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:45 Haydin wrote:
So, to clarify (and I'm serious here, I ONLY want clarification here), it seems like the issue with savior is more that he was a huge figure in esports, and it's really more about weight his named carried that makes his crime unforgivable. Lesser names caught cheating, such as Dimaga, Haypro, and TT1 are all forgivable, since their actions did not actually threaten esports as a whole. Can I take this to mean that even given his recent scandal in the ESV weekly, Slayers_Coca could still stream on TL?
P.S. I also have to say that I love Dimaga Haypro and TT1, so I'm in no way saying they shouldn't be forgiven. I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't. I'm ONLY asking for clarification on how TL deals with pro-gamers who have been caught cheating. I'll just post what I sent to the last person who asked me about savior, since you don't seem to have the background on it:
I loved him for his play, not his person.
Even if he did something very bad I still love his play.
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It doesn't matter if Savior deserves whatever or if you forgive him for his transgressions. He was my favourite progamer and I certainly don't forgive him. Big deal. That doesn't mean I won't watch someone else stream his games. I'm not supporting him in any way other than allowing my eyes to rest on a screen where a game of his is being played. He will never play a professional game again. He is completely removed from ESPORTS and will stay that way forever. All this does is needlessly inconvenience people who want to watch a former legend play some fucking games.
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On November 16 2011 04:34 Rostam wrote:
It's irrelevant since it's not the community's decision to make.
Ah yes. How a decision made about a place that exists soley to be a starcraft community affects the community is irrelevant. That makes a ton of fucking sense.
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On November 16 2011 04:57 Megaliskuu wrote:Streaming Ma Bonjwa hurts ESPORTS to the highest degree it can possibly be hurt, therefore I agree with all these other fine folks BLOCK SAVIOR! + Show Spoiler +JK what the fuck just cuz some mods are upset doesn't mean it has to be ruined for everybody else, those mods who were against having savior on were probably the same ones who dont give a shit about BW anymore anyways so it doesn't affect them. MANI FIGHTING
I can't tell if you are entirely joking or if the second half is serious.
Either way I don't know that this is a thread to f*ck with. This is a pretty serious issue for some people. (in case you didn't read Chill's replies...)
-edit: sp
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If you won't show stream of Savior for fixing matches then I believe you should not allow anyone such as CombatEx or Deezer be featured or on stream as well. If you are going to punish one for their poor judgement you should punish them all. Also why is TT1 able to stream he was also a cheater back in the day. I am not saying what he did was right but if your gonna enforce a rule that bans the streams of those who did/do negative things in the community they all should get the same treatment.
Also in light of recent events should Coca and Byun also be removed from the lists of streams?
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On November 15 2011 15:07 Manifesto7 wrote:
Just follow the people who will stream savior to get an alert when they are online. Or have them mention it by twitter. That is what I plan to do.
Need a list of such fine folk. That list would have most easily been compiled and coordinated in the thread that's now closed.
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How come TL has suddenly come to this conclusion? Why now, and why not earlier? The thread about his stream has be up for so long now, without any interference.
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On November 16 2011 05:25 P0ckets wrote:
If you won't show stream of Savior for fixing matches then I believe you should not allow anyone such as CombatEx or Deezer be featured or on stream as well. If you are going to punish one for their poor judgement you should punish them all. Also why is TT1 able to stream he was also a cheater back in the day. I am not saying what he did was right but if your gonna enforce a rule that bans the streams of those who did/do negative things in the community they all should get the same treatment.
Also in light of recent events should Coca and Byun also be removed from the lists of streams?
yeah dont get it... just because Savior was a huge name its ok for smaller names 2 fuck around and dont get punished or whaT?
but like someone said already. pretty sure the decision was made by mods who dont give a fuck about BW anymore.
But yeah. let it run for like 8 months then close everything... freaking stupid.
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On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.
This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.
More like 50% people who want to see the stream, 50% who support TL without even caring what the main topic of discussion is.
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On November 16 2011 05:32 rasers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:25 P0ckets wrote:
If you won't show stream of Savior for fixing matches then I believe you should not allow anyone such as CombatEx or Deezer be featured or on stream as well. If you are going to punish one for their poor judgement you should punish them all. Also why is TT1 able to stream he was also a cheater back in the day. I am not saying what he did was right but if your gonna enforce a rule that bans the streams of those who did/do negative things in the community they all should get the same treatment.
Also in light of recent events should Coca and Byun also be removed from the lists of streams? yeah dont get it... just because Savior was a huge name its ok for smaller names 2 fuck around and dont get punished or whaT? but like someone said already. pretty sure the decision was made by mods who dont give a fuck about BW anymore. But yeah. let it run for like 8 months then close everything... freaking stupid.
I don't know what they intend to do about Coca/Byun but the TT1 comparison keeps popping up and it's absolutely ridiculous. Match fixing is much worse than what he did.
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Very good decisicion by the mods imo.
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On November 16 2011 05:44 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:32 rasers wrote:On November 16 2011 05:25 P0ckets wrote:
If you won't show stream of Savior for fixing matches then I believe you should not allow anyone such as CombatEx or Deezer be featured or on stream as well. If you are going to punish one for their poor judgement you should punish them all. Also why is TT1 able to stream he was also a cheater back in the day. I am not saying what he did was right but if your gonna enforce a rule that bans the streams of those who did/do negative things in the community they all should get the same treatment.
Also in light of recent events should Coca and Byun also be removed from the lists of streams? yeah dont get it... just because Savior was a huge name its ok for smaller names 2 fuck around and dont get punished or whaT? but like someone said already. pretty sure the decision was made by mods who dont give a fuck about BW anymore. But yeah. let it run for like 8 months then close everything... freaking stupid. I don't know what they intend to do about Coca/Byun but the TT1 comparison keeps popping up and it's absolutely ridiculous. Match fixing is much worse than what he did.
oh since TT1 made somethign in a smaller area its ok ^_^ fun stuff.
so why even close everything and stuff after 8 months?
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God I love Savior and hope he could be allowed to play again some day. I wish more people had the ability to forgive instead of holding a grudge like a 10y old.
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EPT
