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Chill or HotBid (or heck, any admin), can you comment on this at all? Could this be reasonable solution to everyone(you)? I think this would be a good solution, if not this exactly, something similar.
On November 16 2011 02:40 gds wrote:
My proposition to come to a compromise that can solve the issue:
- Create an official "Afreeca streams" thread were people can post when/what they are restreaming, that way the name of savior isnt constantly seen in the broodwar forum.
- Streamers that want to restream savior are not allowed to turn their stream 'live' so their streams will not apear in the list.
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On November 16 2011 07:59 P0ckets wrote:
Where will Cocoa and Byun stand? It seems pretty obviously that they were fixing games just as Savior had. Will they be punished similarly for partaking in the same act?
While its similar, its not really the same, savior was part of concerted effort to fix games for money, involving multiple parties and players. So while sharing some similarities, what Cocoa and Byun did isn't fixing games just as savior did, I think its a simplification too far to say that.
In short, the 2 cases are different, not just in scale, but also in context.
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On November 16 2011 08:27 Kerotan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:59 P0ckets wrote:
Where will Cocoa and Byun stand? It seems pretty obviously that they were fixing games just as Savior had. Will they be punished similarly for partaking in the same act? While its similar, its not really the same, savior was part of concerted effort to fix games for money, involving multiple parties and players. So while sharing some similarities, what Cocoa and Byun did isn't fixing games just as savior did, I think its a simplification too far to say that. In short, the 2 cases are different, not just in scale, but also in context.
But a Code A spots can equate to money not only in potential prize money but recognition, sponsorship and such.
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United States22154 Posts
On November 16 2011 09:24 P0ckets wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 08:27 Kerotan wrote:On November 16 2011 07:59 P0ckets wrote:
Where will Cocoa and Byun stand? It seems pretty obviously that they were fixing games just as Savior had. Will they be punished similarly for partaking in the same act? While its similar, its not really the same, savior was part of concerted effort to fix games for money, involving multiple parties and players. So while sharing some similarities, what Cocoa and Byun did isn't fixing games just as savior did, I think its a simplification too far to say that. In short, the 2 cases are different, not just in scale, but also in context. But a Code A spots can equate to money not only in potential prize money but recognition, sponsorship and such.
There is a world of difference between gging out of a match to help a buddy out, to trying to rig a scheme by where betting sites have huge odds in your favor and you then throw away games to make money. Once can be excused as a out of game relationship tainting a game, and one can see that the motivation and intent was not necessarily bad, even though the actions are still reprehensible. The other can be seen, at best, only as sheer undiluted greed trumping any thought of the fans or the integrity of the game. Not saying there shouldn't be consequences but the two situations are hardly the same.
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On November 16 2011 06:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, what Savior did was magnitudes greater than maphacking or abusing in a tournament. He almost served jail time and what he did was virtually criminal. I see it on the same level of literally stealing money from tournaments or running a scam.
Second, just because we celebrate what he accomplished before his match fixing does not mean we should allow him to do whatever now.
I think it's ridiculous you guys are comparing the situation to a few maphackers and abusers. We banned TT1 for 1.5 years for maphacking. If we were to impose a similar punishment on Savior it'd be a ban for 5+ years given the magnitude of the offense. Does anyone disagree with this?
I'm fine with him streaming in 2016.
This is absolutely reasonable. GG hotbid.
Also, I had no idea TT1 maphacked. I used to respect that guy until I started reading his posts... And that just shredded the last remnants.
I'd be interested in watching Savior, but not interested enough to circumvent TL, so my curiosity will have to fade.
That said, he was banned from ever participating in any GSL, IIRC. Does that ban extend to other leagues in SCII as well?
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As far as SC2 is concerned I've never heard of anyone mention his name. In bw, he's banned from Korean competitive tournaments. That's the biggest scene so yeah..
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On November 16 2011 06:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, what Savior did was magnitudes greater than maphacking or abusing in a tournament. He almost served jail time and what he did was virtually criminal. I see it on the same level of literally stealing money from tournaments or running a scam.
Second, just because we celebrate what he accomplished before his match fixing does not mean we should allow him to do whatever now.
I think it's ridiculous you guys are comparing the situation to a few maphackers and abusers. We banned TT1 for 1.5 years for maphacking. If we were to impose a similar punishment on Savior it'd be a ban for 5+ years given the magnitude of the offense. Does anyone disagree with this?
I'm fine with him streaming in 2016.
I think you're thinking about it wrong. You're not banning savior from TL. You're not preventing him from doing "whatever". savior's on afreeca and probably couldn't care less if you ban him. In no way is this a punishment for savior like you could say with TT1 or whoever. In no way whatsoever does savior benefit from being restreamed. You are simply punishing the (small) bw community here on TL who want to watch and learn from his games. There is no one else affected by your decision except the community members here.
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10387 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history.
So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers.
Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch.
As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late.
speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect
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such a shame. I love watching savior, the best bw stream there is and we cant watch it 
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United States1719 Posts
On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late. speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect
No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck, regardless of what you personally took away from watching his play (I don't doubt people learned a thing or two, but that does not mean it was his primary intent). His core values are messed up, and I really doubt that the mods are doing this to punish savior in any way (and it's not like they can, either: like you said, he doesn't benefit from foreigners watching restreams). Rather, it's that his moral fiber does not align with that of the TL community, and the mods chose not to promote his activities. Simple as that. I am part of the BW community, and I don't feel punished by having the streams cut off.
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On November 16 2011 12:30 Probe1 wrote:
As far as SC2 is concerned I've never heard of anyone mention his name. In bw, he's banned from Korean competitive tournaments. That's the biggest scene so yeah..
GOM has stated somewhere that they won't allow him and the others play in GSL or GOM tournaments. Also, Kespa won't let them play in their tournaments either.
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to me it seems that one of the reasons there has been a backlash to the no restreams is because the thread up about him streaming has been going since march. my question is just was there any reason this decision was made now or has it been debated since the thread first appeared all those months ago?
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i think its bullshit that you cant resteam him, i think he has been punished enough but whatever im not going to get into that as people will just get pissed and nobody is going to change their mind on the subject. if you just google savior streaming and look around you can usually find someone that is streaming
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On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late. speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck,
How do you know ? That does not seem far-fetched, but how do you know ? And why would that even justify forbiding restream on TL, because he can't make any money from that...
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I'm sorry for coming in the middle of the discussion, but who is the streamer in question that restreams sAviOr? Nanashin?
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On November 16 2011 21:47 KvltMan wrote:
I'm sorry for coming in the middle of the discussion, but who is the streamer in question that restreams sAviOr? Nanashin?
It depends. There is few who re-stream players. But Yosul/museun has been one of the active ones with re streaming various players from Afreeca.
I doubt anyone is only streaming Savior.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50692 Posts
On November 16 2011 21:47 KvltMan wrote:
I'm sorry for coming in the middle of the discussion, but who is the streamer in question that restreams sAviOr? Nanashin?
no one is a dedicated restreamer,if I see savior streaming then I'll let you know.
hes not.
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This has now become the unofficial "who's restreaming Savior" thread.
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On November 16 2011 23:26 bonifaceviii wrote:
This has now become the unofficial "who's restreaming Savior" thread.
in his defense i think he thought this whole issue was because one particular person was re-streaming, could be wrong though
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10387 Posts
On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late. speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck, regardless of what you personally took away from watching his play (I don't doubt people learned a thing or two, but that does not mean it was his primary intent). His core values are messed up, and I really doubt that the mods are doing this to punish savior in any way (and it's not like they can, either: like you said, he doesn't benefit from foreigners watching restreams). Rather, it's that his moral fiber does not align with that of the TL community, and the mods chose not to promote his activities. Simple as that. I am part of the BW community, and I don't feel punished by having the streams cut off.
You don't feel punished as part of the BW community because you aren't the part where they are trying to actively learn the game to play better, you're just there as a rather uninvolved spectator (do you even play semi-regularly nowadays? doubtful). For many of the rest of us, we feel our minds are blown whenever we see Savior and begin thinking of things we thought previously wasn't possibly for our hands and game. It is undeniable that one of savior's likely intents from streaming is to make some money, but you can't say that is his only intent like I've stated.
He doesn't even make money off the restreams, yet he doesn't ask to stop the restreams. If money-making was his only intent, he would've requested to stop all restreaming activity already as it would interfere with any potential donation or income.
And again, whatever this bullshit about moral fiber is about doesn't work out now how come it wasn't the same policy back when Savior first streamed?
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EPT
