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United States1719 Posts
On November 17 2011 00:35 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late. speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck, regardless of what you personally took away from watching his play (I don't doubt people learned a thing or two, but that does not mean it was his primary intent). His core values are messed up, and I really doubt that the mods are doing this to punish savior in any way (and it's not like they can, either: like you said, he doesn't benefit from foreigners watching restreams). Rather, it's that his moral fiber does not align with that of the TL community, and the mods chose not to promote his activities. Simple as that. I am part of the BW community, and I don't feel punished by having the streams cut off. You don't feel punished as part of the BW community because you aren't the part where they are trying to actively learn the game to play better, you're just there as a rather uninvolved spectator (do you even play semi-regularly nowadays? doubtful). For many of the rest of us, we feel our minds are blown whenever we see Savior and begin thinking of things we thought previously wasn't possibly for our hands and game. It is undeniable that one of savior's likely intents from streaming is to make some money, but you can't say that is his only intent like I've stated. He doesn't even make money off the restreams, yet he doesn't ask to stop the restreams. If money-making was his only intent, he would've requested to stop all restreaming activity already as it would interfere with any potential donation or income. And again, whatever this bullshit about moral fiber is about doesn't work out now how come it wasn't the same policy back when Savior first streamed?
Alright I don't want to keep bickering with any particular person about this, so I'm sorry I upset you. Cool? Maybe Savior had other intentions when he first started streaming, who knows, maybe you're right and he really wanted to teach people a thing or two cuz he had a bit of decency after all. I don't play competitively on iccup or fish but I do enjoy lanning with my buddies quite often, and I watch copious amounts of BW so it doesn't feel entirely fair to call me an un-involved spectator :p I love the game just as much as any other joe shcmo out there, but for me personally, I'm not over what Savior did and how he handled the situation in its aftermath, so I'm in agreement with the mods' decision to remove his streams from the TL community. Maybe in like 5 years, but not anytime soon will I want to watch him play BW. As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too.
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I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand?
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On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late.
I hate to jump in, but I really feel as though ArvickHero has some very good points here. I think it's fair to ask who this ban is really hurting, Savior really stands to gain nothing tangible from being re-streamed on TL. I also don't think that this is somehow providing a deterrent to future cheaters. After being banned from Kespa, GSL, going to jail, etc. I doubt being banned from being restreamed on TL really matters in his mind.
I do believe that what Savior did was completely dispicable and thuggish, but I'm not so sure I agree with this idea that denying his content from restreaming on TL is really "punishing" him.
Though I wonder, if the restreaming is done on a site like Twitch, isn't it possible for the restreamer to make money?
On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:
As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too.
This argument bothers me. Sure, we are not paying to use the site. But the merch we buy and the ad revenue we generate with our web traffic pays the bills at TL. Out blind cheering for TL pro players has created the fan base that sponsors like The Little App Factory are attracted to. In some ways we are the customers here. However, I believe that the mod staff have the duty to do things that they believe are in the best interest of the community even if the majority disagree. I think the real issue is whether this is one of those situations or not.
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On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? The ban still stands for any tournament related to GOM or Kespa. 
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United States1719 Posts
On November 17 2011 01:46 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:
As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too. This argument bothers me. Sure, we are not paying to use the site. But the merch we buy and the ad revenue we generate with our web traffic pays the bills at TL. Out blind cheering for TL pro players has created the fan base that sponsors like The Little App Factory are attracted to. In some ways we are the customers here. However, I believe that the mod staff have the duty to do things that they believe are in the best interest of the community even if the majority disagree. I think the real issue is whether this is one of those situations or not.
I can see how the argument bothers you, but again, TL is the provider, and the users come for the benefits that it provides, with neither party holding the other hostage against its will. The monetary benefits that TL receives is a minor side-effect: the mods aren't doing what they do to make bank off of the website, and they don't. If TL decides to cut one of the benefits it provides on its own discretion, I believe they should have the right to do it. That is just my subjective, idealistic opinion, of course :p
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10387 Posts
On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 00:35 ArvickHero wrote:On November 16 2011 17:33 rotinegg wrote:On November 16 2011 16:26 ArvickHero wrote:On November 16 2011 07:49 Chill wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 ArvickHero wrote:
Ridiculous. He doesn't benefit from foreigners watching his stream, and in a sense he's atoning for his crimes by giving upcoming BW players a great resource to learn from. Are we going to make linking Savior's VODs a bannable offense too? Streaming is not selfless charity. In no way is streaming atoning for his crimes. As already explained, it would be absurd to try to rewrite previous history. So when did I ever mention anything about rewriting history? Savior's crimes should never be forgotten and has forever left a scar on the BW scene. His streaming however, is a way to give back to the community to help show aspiring Zerg players of what they can all do even with low APM and show us tricks and knowledge that were previously only known to progamers. Streaming isn't selfless charity? Where the fuck did that even come from? Yea, streaming isn't "selfless charity", but his stream is completely free to watch and donating is completely optional. He streams because he still enjoys playing the game and his play is incredibly entertaining and informational to watch. As L3gendary put it, you aren't punishing Savior at all. He probably doesn't give a damn about his stream being banned here, since TL only watches through restreams and can't donate. You are only punishing the BW community, and it's been a common theme as of late. speaking of history, why is it NOW Savior restreams are being banned, instead of back when he first started streaming. What's with the rather odd sudden decision to do so? What exactly changed from then to now to make this policy go into effect No matter how you spin it, he is not streaming to give back to the community. He is streaming to make a quick buck, regardless of what you personally took away from watching his play (I don't doubt people learned a thing or two, but that does not mean it was his primary intent). His core values are messed up, and I really doubt that the mods are doing this to punish savior in any way (and it's not like they can, either: like you said, he doesn't benefit from foreigners watching restreams). Rather, it's that his moral fiber does not align with that of the TL community, and the mods chose not to promote his activities. Simple as that. I am part of the BW community, and I don't feel punished by having the streams cut off. You don't feel punished as part of the BW community because you aren't the part where they are trying to actively learn the game to play better, you're just there as a rather uninvolved spectator (do you even play semi-regularly nowadays? doubtful). For many of the rest of us, we feel our minds are blown whenever we see Savior and begin thinking of things we thought previously wasn't possibly for our hands and game. It is undeniable that one of savior's likely intents from streaming is to make some money, but you can't say that is his only intent like I've stated. He doesn't even make money off the restreams, yet he doesn't ask to stop the restreams. If money-making was his only intent, he would've requested to stop all restreaming activity already as it would interfere with any potential donation or income. And again, whatever this bullshit about moral fiber is about doesn't work out now how come it wasn't the same policy back when Savior first streamed? Alright I don't want to keep bickering with any particular person about this, so I'm sorry I upset you. Cool? Maybe Savior had other intentions when he first started streaming, who knows, maybe you're right and he really wanted to teach people a thing or two cuz he had a bit of decency after all. I don't play competitively on iccup or fish but I do enjoy lanning with my buddies quite often, and I watch copious amounts of BW so it doesn't feel entirely fair to call me an un-involved spectator :p I love the game just as much as any other joe shcmo out there, but for me personally, I'm not over what Savior did and how he handled the situation in its aftermath, so I'm in agreement with the mods' decision to remove his streams from the TL community. Maybe in like 5 years, but not anytime soon will I want to watch him play BW. As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too.
I admit it was a bit unfair for me to call you an uninvolved spectator, so I apologize for that.
I don't see how you can forgive Savior 5 years down the road (I won't forgive him even 50 years from now), but in my view him streaming his brilliant play is a way for him to somewhat mend the damage he dealt by giving up-and-comers a great resource to refer to. Banning his stream is simply just hurting the BW community more than it hurts Savior (which is almost nothing).
TL does reserve the right to push its changes whenever it wants, but there still isn't a sufficient explanation as to why Savior restreams are banned now, when they were perfectly fine w/ Savior being streamed before.
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On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand?
TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban.
Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2.
And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.
User was warned for this post
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He won't get in any serious organization in sc2. People have a huge problem with signing major. you think they're even going to consider a convicted match fixer that gave money to players to lose and bet money on these matches?
People didn't let joe jackson come play in baseball anywhere savior is no different.
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On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.
Excuse but have you even read this thread?
For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity.
Secondly saying that he didn't hurt Esports is beyond ridiculous. He intentionally and systematically threw games for a quick buck. All games he was involved in became suspect as did the people he played. This same suspicion was cast on every upset, every mistake, everything that was surprising. This turns people away, if I don't believe a game is being played fair and square, I won't watch. Why should I? It isn't entertaining as nothing is on the line.
What does Milkis have to do with this?
Passion-rage is a good thing. It shows a commitment to the game and its competition. Something Savior gave away. It is sad that you can dismiss this as some high and mightly mod response without acknowledging the damage that this circus has done. People are hurt, and yes they doesn't lead to the most rationale responses, but of all people Savior does not deserve simpathy.
Show a little respect. The staff at this site have demonstrated their commitment to this community time and time again. They built it. What gives you the right to dismiss them?
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On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community.
You just shit on Teamliquid as a site, said savior being paid off didn't do anything to damage pro gaming, and compared milkis quitting over how the community reacted to his opinion to the damage savior did. Were you born retarded or dropped on your head as a child?
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On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity.
Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much.
Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison.
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Probulous, you should know better than to give into such a blatant trolling attempt 
On November 17 2011 02:23 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:46 TheToast wrote:On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:
As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too. This argument bothers me. Sure, we are not paying to use the site. But the merch we buy and the ad revenue we generate with our web traffic pays the bills at TL. Out blind cheering for TL pro players has created the fan base that sponsors like The Little App Factory are attracted to. In some ways we are the customers here. However, I believe that the mod staff have the duty to do things that they believe are in the best interest of the community even if the majority disagree. I think the real issue is whether this is one of those situations or not. I can see how the argument bothers you, but again, TL is the provider, and the users come for the benefits that it provides, with neither party holding the other hostage against its will. The monetary benefits that TL receives is a minor side-effect: the mods aren't doing what they do to make bank off of the website, and they don't. If TL decides to cut one of the benefits it provides on its own discretion, I believe they should have the right to do it. That is just my subjective, idealistic opinion, of course :p
I didn't mean to suggest that anyone is getting rich off TL (no pun intended), but the joe shmoe's in the community is what keeps the lights on and gives a purpose to the hard work of certain individuals within this community.
Obviously though, I respect the tough position the mods are in on this one. Even if I don't necessarily agree with their decision...
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United States1719 Posts
On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity. Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much. Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison.
but then in Coca's case it was more like this game doesn't matter to me, but for my friend it does, so just take it, whereas in savior's it was carefully coordinated criminal activity
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On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity. Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much. Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison.
Touche`. I will admit I hadn't caught up on the final punishment of Coca before I responded. Bad me. The point still stands, just from the reaction from people in that thread when the news broke. It is clear that people are super sensitive to this stuff right now.
On November 17 2011 12:40 TheToast wrote:Probulous, you should know better than to give into such a blatant trolling attempt + Show Spoiler +On November 17 2011 02:23 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:46 TheToast wrote:On November 17 2011 00:59 rotinegg wrote:
As for TL policy, I think mods reserve the right to run the site however they want and change things up whenever they want, since nobody is paying or being forced to use it; kinda like how facebook can push through their layout changes at random too. This argument bothers me. Sure, we are not paying to use the site. But the merch we buy and the ad revenue we generate with our web traffic pays the bills at TL. Out blind cheering for TL pro players has created the fan base that sponsors like The Little App Factory are attracted to. In some ways we are the customers here. However, I believe that the mod staff have the duty to do things that they believe are in the best interest of the community even if the majority disagree. I think the real issue is whether this is one of those situations or not. I can see how the argument bothers you, but again, TL is the provider, and the users come for the benefits that it provides, with neither party holding the other hostage against its will. The monetary benefits that TL receives is a minor side-effect: the mods aren't doing what they do to make bank off of the website, and they don't. If TL decides to cut one of the benefits it provides on its own discretion, I believe they should have the right to do it. That is just my subjective, idealistic opinion, of course :p I didn't mean to suggest that anyone is getting rich off TL (no pun intended), but the joe shmoe's in the community is what keeps the lights on and gives a purpose to the hard work of certain individuals within this community. Obviously though, I respect the tough position the mods are in on this one. Even if I don't necessarily agree with their decision...
I have never been good at spotting trolls. I am a naive optimist. I'd rather believe people post with real intentions then become a cynic. If it means I look stupid every now and then, so be it.
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On November 17 2011 12:42 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity. Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much. Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison. but then in Coca's case it was more like this game doesn't matter to me, but for my friend it does, so just take it, whereas in savior's it was carefully coordinated criminal activity
So what do people have a problem with exactly? Is it that savior ripped off some people who bet illegally and therefore committed a crime, or is it the integrity of the games that came into question because the fans don't want to spectate games where players throw them?
The legal part of it and starcraft are completely unrelated imo.
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Osaka27154 Posts
Just about the question of "why didn't this happen 8 months ago". The staff thread about this was opened in June, and that is really when he started streaming. It went away for a while and was brought back up recently. If it makes you feel any better, just about every argument for and against that is in this thread is in that one too.
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United States1719 Posts
On November 17 2011 13:29 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 12:42 rotinegg wrote:On November 17 2011 10:39 L3gendary wrote:On November 17 2011 09:08 Probulous wrote:On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. For one saying his actions don't affect SC2 is plain wrong. Look at the reaction to the Byun/Coca thing. Both players banned as soon as the story breaks. No ifs, no buts, banned. There is clearly a sensitivity towards anything that smells of match-fixing. You can't say that Savior's betrayal had nothing to do with this sensitivity. Not agreeing with who you are quoting but what you're saying is not true. Coca forfeited from the gsl and his team is who took action against him. He's not banned from anything but the korean weekly for a couple of months. woop dee doo. If you read the comments and lately the poll it seems most people don't care about the match fixing or at least think the punishment by his team was too much. Coca's getting a slap on the wrist in comparison. but then in Coca's case it was more like this game doesn't matter to me, but for my friend it does, so just take it, whereas in savior's it was carefully coordinated criminal activity So what do people have a problem with exactly? Is it that savior ripped off some people who bet illegally and therefore committed a crime, or is it the integrity of the games that came into question because the fans don't want to spectate games where players throw them? The legal part of it and starcraft are completely unrelated imo.
Hmm... let me try to lay it out as simply as I can without omitting important details...
1) Gambling in any form is illegal in Korea in the first place, except in certified casinos where only foreigners with ID can enter
2) He received commission by purposefully losing games where the betting odds were stacked in his favor
3) He persuaded other progamers who had no idea of matchfixing to join in this illegal activity and brokered their deals
4) He ripped off the progamers he brokered by pocketing chunks of the 'commission' they were promised
5) He denied denied denied and went into hiding, when others who were involved, like hwasin and type-b, apologized. (I believe savior apologized later though)
Sangho, who was uninvolved with the whole scandal, was falsely accused of matchfixing, as enraged netizens tried to track down all of those who might have been involved, and as a result considered suicide due to the slanders and accusations.
Although I don't necessarily agree with your opinion that the legality of the matter and starcraft are unrelated, this extends beyond just legality. Savior exploited a scene that was built by the sweat and tears of his predecessors like boxer, and runs on the passion of its participants and fans, and left much of it in ruins imo. To come back to that very scene that he damaged so heavily in less than a year, and use it to make money, is... I don't have a word for it in English, but it is definitely not a good feeling.
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Croatia9517 Posts
Ok, I won't go into any discussions about restreaming Savior as everything has been discussed to death and let's just say I respect admin's decision.
However, what I don't understand and would like to talk a bit in more detail is this:
On November 16 2011 01:43 Chill wrote:
To clarify the policy: if someone is playing a single game vs savior, it's okay to resteam that opponent. If it's a practice session (more than one game in a row) it's not okay to bypass the no-Savior rule by streaming that.
Kiante was restreaming Hiya just now and he was playing against Savior. After one game they played, Kiante had to make his stream offline on TL to oblige to this rule.
Can we get a bit more clarification on this rule? A lot of people want to watch Hiya streaming, he is a first (I think) current BW progamer that we have a first person live stream of in the whole history of TL. Instead of promoting this stream like crazy, we're now forced to take his stream offline because of the opponents he's playing. And instead of having hundreds of live viewers, stream is now capped at 79 viewers. It's a shame imo.
Also, why it's ok to restream one game of them, but not more? That seems like such an arbitrary decision.
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Osaka27154 Posts
I dont get that rule at all, and it wasnt discussed in the staff thread. Dont know where it came from.
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Calgary25987 Posts
On November 17 2011 08:34 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:29 phANT1m wrote:
I'm just curious. If he switches to Starcraft 2 does the ban still stand? TL paladins seem to think SC2 is the same game, so they'll probably keep the ban. Or maybe they could realize it's not BW2 and that his actions have not affected SC2 and as such he isn't guilty of any crime against SC2. And he didn't hurt eSports, that was actually hilarious to see Chill say that. I thought Milkis already left? Passion-rage and making things personal (he betrayed us ;_;), and people still think this is the best SC2 community. User was warned for this post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=hurt esports&t=c&f=7&u=chill&gb=date&d=
When did I say that?
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EPT
