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Hyrule19192 Posts
On November 16 2011 02:16 gds wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:12 QuothTheRaven wrote:On November 16 2011 02:11 Chicane wrote:
I'm not sure why people can't get over this. No one is being prevent from watching him... TL is just choosing not to support someone who has cheated in the past. :-/ I really don't see the problem here. I'm being prevented from watching him until someone tells me how I can find his (re)stream  Do you really think that anyone will restream savior if it's not listed on TL? Banning his stream on TL means nobody can watch him anymore, simple as that, and the admins knows it.
"can" and "will" have different meanings. And you're over simplifying. It will certainly be harder to find a restream of Savior, but it's not suddenly impossible just because it's not listed on TL.
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This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft.
On November 15 2011 11:02 Manifesto7 wrote:
You can still stream savior and watch savior, just not on TL. TL is not going to give him any support in any way, which includes having his stream featured on the site. If you want to support a guy that damaged the game more than anyone else, ever, that is on you. Don't expect us to help you.
Yeah, what a magnificent idea. Let's go to another site where we can find sAviOr restreams and discuss them like..... well..... err..... umm........
Point proven.
Apart from iCCup's forums which aren't exactly well known for discussion over happenings in the professional gaming scene, TeamLiquid is the only active Brood War community outside of Korea. Other communities like SCReddit, WellPlayed etc are only really known for covering SC2 related happenings.
I like how TL's stance is like "TL is not going to give him any support in any way", acting as if they alone can tell the TL community as a whole who they can or can't support via what I feel is outright censorship. The even bigger irony is that just having sAviOr related content on your website isn't exactly a show of "support" for him from the TeamLiquid site either.
Maybe if it were a featured streamer streaming sAviOr's Afreeca games on his channel, then I'd understand why TeamLiquid wouldn't want to officially endorse the restreams of a proven cheater. Point is, I feel that featured streams are more a show of "support" from the TeamLiquid site than just merely allowing the content on your forums.
Hence, I feel like the decision to just outright ban any coverage of sAviOr's streaming is harsh, if not borderline bigotry, especially when the TL moderation are viewing the mere tolerence of this content as "supporting match fixing."
And so what if he's done considerable damage to the game? The damage has been done, he's been punished (via permanent blacklisting from GOMTV and KeSPA sactioned tournaments) and nothing else can change that. Point is he's not exactly cheating anymore, even if he's still a hate figure to many of his former fans.
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@gds NOONE wants to watch Savior play b/c hes a dick for getting paid to throw matches and made a shit ton of money off of the trust that the entire Esports community gave to him so jst listen to the modss
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On November 16 2011 03:13 Clbull wrote:This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft.
Ver wrote the article, and it was obviously started before the scandal came out. Notice how there is no part two(yet, there could be one or could not be one)? If you don't like the site's stance on it, maybe the site is not for you, a lot of people including staff were hurt very deeply by what he did.
Savior was great, he could still be great but to me he is just a thug who was trying to make a quick dollar and not care about the fans, the game or the organisation that made him a star. So anything new to do with savior not being shown on this website is okay by me.
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On November 16 2011 03:31 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:13 Clbull wrote:This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft. Ver wrote the article, and it was obviously started before the scandal came out. Notice how there is no part two(yet, there could be one or could not be one)? Don't like the site's stance on it, maybe the site is not for you. Savior was great, he could still be great but to me he is just a thug who was trying to make a quick dollar and not care about the fans, the game or the organisation that made him a star. So anything new to do with savior not being shown on this website is okay by me.
Ver has been quite open about the article being in the makings
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On November 16 2011 03:33 Iplaythings wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 03:31 Kralic wrote:On November 16 2011 03:13 Clbull wrote:This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft. Ver wrote the article, and it was obviously started before the scandal came out. Notice how there is no part two(yet, there could be one or could not be one)? Don't like the site's stance on it, maybe the site is not for you. Savior was great, he could still be great but to me he is just a thug who was trying to make a quick dollar and not care about the fans, the game or the organisation that made him a star. So anything new to do with savior not being shown on this website is okay by me. Ver has been quite open about the article being in the makings
Ah yes, I got the timing on the years wrong oops I didn't really read the article as closely as I should have I guess.
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I'm happy he's not being listed. And for all those people who want re-streams and are acting like TL is preventing him from earning a living or something - restreams don't earn Savior jack.
Just a little dose of sanity for TL mods who have to deal with everyone who doesn't like the decision while those that do don't post.
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This is stupid. After you guys wrote an article basically glorifying sAviOr's play in an impartial manner and overlooking his condemnation, you now decide to do a u-turn that is so big, it's literally visible from space, and basically ban any form of streaming coverage related to sAviOr on a forum about Starcraft.
Discussing what he did in the past != supporting him in the present.
Apart from iCCup's forums which aren't exactly well known for discussion over happenings in the professional gaming scene, TeamLiquid is the only active Brood War community outside of Korea. Other communities like SCReddit, WellPlayed etc are only really known for covering SC2 related happenings.
So?
I like how TL's stance is like "TL is not going to give him any support in any way", acting as if they alone can tell the TL community as a whole who they can or can't support via what I feel is outright censorship.
They aren't telling "the TL community" who they can support. The website is choosing not to support him. You can still support him on your own if you want. Nobody is stopping you.
Maybe if it were a featured streamer streaming sAviOr's Afreeca games on his channel, then I'd understand why TeamLiquid wouldn't want to officially endorse the restreams of a proven cheater. Point is, I feel that featured streams are more a show of "support" from the TeamLiquid site than just merely allowing the content on your forums.
Yet allowing the content on your forums is still a show of support, is it not?
Hence, I feel like the decision to just outright ban any coverage of sAviOr's streaming is harsh, if not borderline bigotry, especially when the TL moderation are viewing the mere tolerence of this content as "supporting match fixing."
Yes, everyone is bigoted against match fixers. Woe to all match fixers, for they are a repressed group.
And so what if he's done considerable damage to the game? The damage has been done, he's been punished (via permanent blacklisting from GOMTV and KeSPA sactioned tournaments) and nothing else can change that. Point is he's not exactly cheating anymore, even if he's still a hate figure to many of his former fans.
Hopefully he's banned for life from TL as well as GomTV and KeSPA.
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TL is not banning him from streaming. You can watch his stream whenever you want. If you´re afraid of missing him due to not having a "list" just get a browser addon like "liveTV" for google chrome. You will be notified when he comes online. Afterall it´s TLs choice wether they want him to be on their site or not.
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Why are people so addicted to punishment? Going out of their way to harm someone else because they feel they deserve it, even though it doesn't change anything, and it doesn't actually benefit the one doing the punishing. It's such an insane aspect of human nature, and it benefits no one. What good does this do? Is it supposed to deter would-be match fixers? That's the only logical reason for punishing someone who has *clearly* moved on from doing whatever they did to hurt anyone in the first place. And I think they've been plenty deterred over the last year and a half.
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I'm sorry but I fail to see how watching someone else stream the games he's streaming is supporting him. He gets no money and has no idea who else is watching. All he gets is a slight bump in publicity, which doesn't even matter because he will never play another professional game of Starcraft. Ver's final edit gave him just that, meaningless publicity. That article was on the front page. Now we can't even see someone else stream his games, even when they aren't featured? I don't understand.
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On November 16 2011 03:18 Rain... wrote:
@gds NOONE wants to watch Savior play b/c hes a dick for getting paid to throw matches and made a shit ton of money off of the trust that the entire Esports community gave to him so jst listen to the modss
You do realize that if "NOONE" wanted to watch him, then this discussion wouldn't take place..?
I can't understand this decision to not allow re-streams of Savior... The only ones who are affected are the viewers. I don't even watch the re-stream myself so I really don't care, but I still think it's a bad move by TL.
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Does this mean we will never see God of the Battlefield: Part 2?
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this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.
This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.
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On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.
This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.
Which makes the decision ridiculous. If it's split 50/50, the half of the community that actually doesn't benefit in any way from their "side" being taken is the one who gets their way. The half that would benefit (since they want to watch him stream) gets shit on, and no one benefits from anything.
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I will never forgive savior for the permanent scar he left to the bw scene. I agree with the decision the admins made in this case to not support savior. If savior was truly sorry, he should have left the bw scene a long time ago. savior streaming for money, etc. only causes problems/divisions for the majority of bw fans, including TL.
It's been repeated over and over again. If you really wish to watch savior's stream, go find it somewhere else (it's not impossible). Point is, TL will not support savior by making it convenient to find his stream through TL.
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On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.
I think there are some important issues here. Sadly, I don't think this will be the last of scandals like this. Esports is big and growing, and there is a lot of money involved. For some people, that kind of money is too great of a temptation. Esports may change but people won't. This will happen again and I think it's important to make a determination on exactly what actions are reasonable to take against these players.
This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides.
This is a perfect reason why this discussion should happen. If everyone were in agreement, there would be no need. But this is an extremely important issue for some people. There's a lot more going on here than meets the eye.
For some, it's not just about having to search through the streams list to find Savior content; barring his content from the featured stream list is seen as symbolic. Savior did a lot for this community and basically invented modern BW (and SC2) gameplay, it could be argued that many of us would not be here if it were for Savior. To forever wipe him from the record, I think, is seen by some as an affront to the roots of BW and this community.
On the other hand, there are many who see what Savior did as an affront to this community and BW in its own right. He screwed over his fellow players and the pro BW scene with little reguard for the outcome, some people would say this is unforgivable. Because he did not respect the community and the scene, the community and the scene should not respect him.
Both are, I think, valid but incompatible views. I don't expect an agreement on one of the two main views to emmerge, but I think there is some common ground and a place for compromise. I also think it is important for the TL staff to understand where the community is on issues like these. As I said, I think this will sadly happen again and the issue is therefore not just going to go away.
-edit: Though I should stress that disscussion has to be logical and civil, or this will just end up closed.
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On November 16 2011 04:25 Banana223 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 04:15 IMStyle wrote:
this thread needs to be closed. No matter what is said or discuss here, tl already made it clear on their stance on things.
This thread already served its purpose, there is obviously not 99percent support for restreams.. In fact there seem to be an even number of supporters on both sides. Which makes the decision ridiculous. If it's split 50/50, the half of the community that actually doesn't benefit in any way from their "side" being taken is the one who gets their way. The half that would benefit (since they want to watch him stream) gets shit on, and no one benefits from anything.
It's irrelevant since it's not the community's decision to make.
For some, it's not just about having to search through the streams list to find Savior content; barring his content from the featured stream list is seen as symbolic. Savior did for this community and basically invent modern BW (and SC2) gameplay, it could be argued that many of us would not be here if it were for Savior. To forever wipe him from the record, I think, is seen by some as an affront to the roots of BW and this community.
He was a great player but to say he invented "modern BW" is a stretch in the extreme. He's not being wiped from the record, either. I'll even prove it:  sAviOr. There's VODs and everything. You can still find everything you want to know about his playing career and his past.
This will happen again and I think it's important to make a determination on exactly what actions are reasonable to take against these players.
They should be banned for life from all events by any organization that cares at all about the integrity of its competition. Simple.
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So, to clarify (and I'm serious here, I ONLY want clarification here), it seems like the issue with savior is more that he was a huge figure in esports, and it's really more about weight his named carried that makes his crime unforgivable. Lesser names caught cheating, such as Dimaga, Haypro, and TT1 are all forgivable, since their actions did not actually threaten esports as a whole. Can I take this to mean that even given his recent scandal in the ESV weekly, Slayers_Coca could still stream on TL?
P.S. I also have to say that I love Dimaga Haypro and TT1, so I'm in no way saying they shouldn't be forgiven. I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't. I'm ONLY asking for clarification on how TL deals with pro-gamers who have been caught cheating.
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On November 16 2011 04:34 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +This will happen again and I think it's important to make a determination on exactly what actions are reasonable to take against these players. They should be banned for life from all events by any organization that cares at all about the integrity of its competition. Simple.
He is; that's why he streams on Afreeca.
This isn't a thread about whether Savior should be invited to the next TSL, it's about whether we can find a restream of him here.
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EPT
