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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 14:42 PJA wrote:I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in. I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core. Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140729.jpg) EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad. On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it.
Thanks for posting your replay; I think it will add something to the discussion.
REGARDING SCOUTING
You have roughly 10 seconds to kill or chase away the enemy worker with your 2 lings before you throw off your timings. Always stick the roach warren in the back of your base. If his worker is on creep, trust me when i say it will die in 2 seconds tops. There are some people who will run the worker around for awhile and I'm forced to put it down before it dies. However, that is rare. Most people will not sacrifice their worker for another 15 seconds of vision of your base.
Back to your replay:
You ran a probe in, and quickly ran out. Against me, you would NOT have seen the roach warren as you didn't send the probe back into his base after that. He started the warren right after pool whereas I don't. I will not start the roach warren until after the worker is dead or gone in most cases. Killing a worker with only 2 lings isn't difficult or time consuming, apparently contrary to popular belief.
Your opponent has excellent unit control, but I think he could really benefit from a better build order. It doesn't have to be mine, it's just that he quickly falls behind in worker count 30-16. He also used early energy on a creep tumor when his roaches were moving out, which means he couldn't reinforce with lings. There is zero chance you survive that game against my build. I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm just pointing out that he had 6 roaches against your 3 zealots 2 stalkers and another 10-14 lings would have ended the game right there. But, he laid a creep tumor.
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I don't understand all the people in this thread who think zealots vs roaches is even close to favoring protoss? Have you played an actual game where your opponent micros his roaches, or just tested it in the unit tester? Yes zealots do very well if you can FF the roaches and beat on them, but since zealots are melee you'll get maybe 1 or 2 attacking at once, while all five roaches will fire at one zealot and pretty much kill it. Repeat until all zealots are dead.
It's so bad that whenever I see a protoss open with 2gate when I spawn as zerg it's almost a free win if you do 1base roaches followed by lings.
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 14:49 iEchoic wrote:
The terran replays don't really show anything, the T players didn't know how to repair, one of them only made a couple marines, and the other did an incredibly dumb proxy rax rush. Repairing the wall + defending definitely works, I've done it before. The roaches can focus the SCVs but you can pull the SCVs back, run to repair the wall, etc. You lose a few SCVs at worst by time the roaches have to leave.
REGARDING REPLAYS
Obviously my opponents didn't respond super perfectly. What's the point of showing replays of a rush where I get crushed? What exactly does that prove? I win a lot of games with this build, and I win a lot of games where the rush doesn't work and I transition out of it.
REGARDING REPAIRING
SCV's usually don't get there in time to repair. On many maps like BS/DQ/XC/M/SS, you actually don't see the roaches until they are at your door. In the time that it takes the SCV to travel over to the choke, the depot is gone. Even if they make it over, marines and hellions do minimal damage to roaches, so many SCV's will get sniped. 4+ easy. I'll trade 5 roaches for 4 SCV's plus mining time, every game.
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 16:45 Geo.Rion wrote:
again, this is one of those builds which may work, but you're banking on your opponent not reacting properly. It certainly can win you some games, but probably you wont be able to beat someone with this opening twice, i mean if the opponent knows it's coming you either lose or will be set back.
Right! Just like banshee rushes, 2-gates, 4-gates, muta rushes, VR rushes, etc. This build isn't the end-all, be-all. It's just another tool in the box.
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 18:03 MrBitter wrote:
So I tested this build out and I really like it. I've been doing a lot of one base muta vs. T recently. (actually detailing the build here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712)
Love the muta build, but it doesn't always work against mech plays.
After testing this with my practice partner, I think I can safely say this build works where my muta build does not. The best part is, they both look very similar in the early game, so even against someone who knows my playstyle, my opponent will have to make a gamble at some point.
Definitely check this out, guys.
(700 Diamond Zerg, btw)
Glad you like it, glad you tried it.
I'll take a whack at your muta build (watching replays now) as 1 base muta is something I really need to work on. Thanks for the link!
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Kudos to the OP!
I just watched the replays and they really showed the strength of this build. Can't wait to test it out!
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 18:36 Xapti wrote:
The only guy that did a good 1 gate was whiplash, and the Fast Expander was a joke of a player.
The fast expander is a 1K diamond player. -_-
Honestly, do I have to beat IdrA/HuK/TLO themselves? I'm sorry beating top 300 players isn't good enough for you. =(
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 19:31 Nerchio wrote:
I really HATE the creator of this thread. I used this build for a long time and it's working in all the match-ups ZvZ,ZvP,ZvT. Sometimes you have to decide whether to go expo after it or mass speedlings or whatever you choose but i find expand the best option. Btw. Protoss can't stop it going 2 gate if he makes more than 2 zealots.
You can also make a roach warren about 65% of Queen production and still be able to finish at the same time(lately i did it that it ended at the same second). I prefer this build as Z because it prevents : hellions,reapers,2/3 proxy gate, ling/bane in ZvZ which are the most common builds on the ladder right now.
I also tend to put down Lair just after my expansion so i can have hydras against banshee, void ray (if i scout it i also make +1/2 queens) and overseer to scout.
I am ~1100 random diamond player.
You can also make 7 roaches instead of 5 but then it's more a kind of all-in. On the other hand you can make 3-4 roaches and pressure your opponent and then just fall back as your exp finishes, put some spine crawlers and be happy because your enemy is behind ;p
Also i do not recommend this build to people who cannot forsee their enemy moves by some signs(what you see in their base, behavior, size of their army) because if you stand against some early stalker pressure followed by 4 warpgate push you're pretty much dead. You may also die to rush of 2 void rays though after you smooth this build in your gameplay you should be safe against all the strategies they can put against you. It's also necessary to connect your 2 bases with creep!
Oh noes, I'm hated!  I actually have been doing this build for several weeks and didn't release it, so I could rack up free wins as no terran or toss players expect Z to do anything early game. That's one huge reason why it keeps working.
I'm glad someone else here knows that this beats a heavy zealot 2 gate. -_-
Regarding transitioning out of it, you're right: there are definitely some tricks to know or you die immediately. Like if you see a stargate, you have to build 2 queens ASAP. Or if they are 4-gating, you make 5-6 drones then everything has to go to zerglings or you just turbo-lose.
I generally don't die to VR's, as I'm in their base wrecking shit when it pops out (which gives time to make more queens and link the bases with creep).
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United States136 Posts
On August 20 2010 22:16 Madkipz wrote:
do you have more games vs terran reaper + bunker block into biomech? Where you start out intent on going this build? i sadly dont have much time to watch all your replays but it sounds potent.
While it might be asking too much, could you release like a replay pack vs terran? or well i might be trying this build myself next week so its really no need to. i just think you wrote so little about how this build does against the wide variety of what terran can do.
I didn't post any replays of reaper/bunker contain because 5RR completely and utterly destroys it. Snipe the SCV repairing the bunker and then just straight-up kill your opponent. He won't have marauders by this time, I guarantee it. It's not even interesting to watch.
Tech labs take time to build. Even if he does miraculously have a marauder in the bunker because of a proxy rax, it's only going to be 1-2 vs your 5 roaches and lings which is completely one-sided.
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Fistdantilus, it seems a very good build. And for those that are so eager to turn down builds people think, experiment, perfect, i say this:
In BW it was common for Protoss to go straight for a Dragoon against a walling in Terran and put early pressure. Did the Dragoons destroy the wall everytime? Not at all. In fact, Terran would often get a tank and start pressuring back with some marines. The thing is: you put pressure. If the opponent worries you can put pressure he will think before trying to rush you with reapers or he'll think before fast expanding.
If you don't harm your economy too much with an early pressure - like it seems you don't with this build - it is useful. The worse thing it can happen is to not break the wall and not do the damage you wanted, but you'll always get them worried.
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I have had great success with this build and I have been using it for a long time. If the timing is right you can do TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE DAMAGE. If it isn't as effective as you want it to be you can easily knock down some rocks and take a gold expansion with the roaches.
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I normally hate the people who come in and criticize a top diamond player's replays, but I must say... what was with that game against Whiplash (5RR Recovery)? He scouted your spire, so built cannons in his main to defend, but then pushed out with zealot+colossus and ZERO stalkers. But then you flew right over his army and to his main base for some reason, when you could have easily killed his army for a GG right there. Just pretty terrible decisions from both players at that point, no offense. 
But thanks a lot for this post, I'm definitely going to try this out. I think that replay shows that it's still possible to transition out of this build even if the rush fails, although you may be at a disadvantage.
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United States136 Posts
I believe I saved that replay as "meh vs toss". It certainly wasn't my best game, but looking at the worker count you can see that I'm almost always ahead even though the rush failed. To be honest, I shouldn't have attacked in the first place.
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I saw fantaprime (rumored to be julyzerg do this in a zvt)
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Just watched game one, going to watch all the games before adding any weight to the criticism, but it looks a little all in with how many workers you were below blue in game one. If he had somehow defended it, his economy would be much better than yours. Again, I will watch all the games before adding weight to this observation.
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On August 20 2010 23:11 Fistdantilus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 22:16 Madkipz wrote:
do you have more games vs terran reaper + bunker block into biomech? Where you start out intent on going this build? i sadly dont have much time to watch all your replays but it sounds potent.
While it might be asking too much, could you release like a replay pack vs terran? or well i might be trying this build myself next week so its really no need to. i just think you wrote so little about how this build does against the wide variety of what terran can do. I didn't post any replays of reaper/bunker contain because 5RR completely and utterly destroys it. Snipe the SCV repairing the bunker and then just straight-up kill your opponent. He won't have marauders by this time, I guarantee it. It's not even interesting to watch. Tech labs take time to build. Even if he does miraculously have a marauder in the bunker because of a proxy rax, it's only going to be 1-2 vs your 5 roaches and lings which is completely one-sided.
wont they just keep threatening to runby while they get marauders? im a little on edge, i saw the two terran replays and i have to admit it looks REALLY REALLY strong but mass reapers is like the terran version of speedling.
you sorta just cant leave your base unguarded? am i missing a vital point of the build? delayed expo and everything about it looks good, just the followtrough. I mean yea you won tbh id rather see games where you lost doing this build because your not mentioning a whole lot about its not so obvious WEAK points.
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I have been using a similar build with great success but this is definitely much more refined and efficient than what I have been doing, so I really appreciate it. I don't understand the criticism either It seems like some people in this thread are expecting someone to post a build that will just win no matter what if executed properly. Even I would be able to beat pro players if I knew exactly what build they were doing and they stuck to it no matter what.
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I'll try this tonight, thanks I've been tinkering around with a BO to try and get early pressure that's not zerglings. While I don't think this will get in before a terran wall closes it will still help (unless you do 2 drone harass on the building SCVs)
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Yet to watch the replays as I don't have access to SC2 here but reading the comments it looks interesting.
Could you put up some replays where you've LOST using this build? I think it's very instructive to see what your opponent to do to counter you.
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United States136 Posts
On August 21 2010 00:36 Madkipz wrote:
wont they just keep threatening to runby while they get marauders? im a little on edge, i saw the two terran replays and i have to admit it looks REALLY REALLY strong but mass reapers is like the terran version of speedling.
you sorta just cant leave your base unguarded? am i missing a vital point of the build? delayed expo and everything about it looks good, just the followtrough. I mean yea you won tbh id rather see games where you lost doing this build because your not mentioning a whole lot about its not so obvious WEAK points.
Tech lab: 25 gas
Nitro: 50 gas
Reaper: 50 gas
Their first reaper is going to cost 125 gas, and you'll have 5 roaches for that same gas. I agree that mass reapers are difficult to handle, but they'll have 2-3 reapers by the time your roaches hit their base. If they don't have marauders at their base, they die. Meanwhile you just throw out 2 roaches and speedlings to defend. EZ game.
Reapers also take a long time to build, meaning almost zero marines. 5RR vs reaper openings is so one-sided.
Regarding posting losses: I looked around and I don't have any loss replays related to the opening. If you are held off, you just spam a round of drones. Pumping out 6+ drones quickly is pretty easy for this build to do. So I can't really say that I lose a long game due to this build. I can say that I've lost with this build because I got overconfident and tried to push through where it was obvious I couldn't, leading to heavy losses on my end and dying to an immediate counterattack.
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EPT
