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On October 16 2010 07:16 shannn wrote:
It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them.
I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
I think Terran and Protoss were too much comfortable against vs <early game zerg>. After the range increase they can't keep on thinking that they are always safe for the first 6-10 minutes of the game. Terran and Protoss players are still getting used to this change and sometime in the future they will know what to do if they scout it properly.
After all of the nerfs that Roaches have given, this was a very welcome buff.
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On October 19 2010 20:08 Shakes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote:
still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in. Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression: a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches
The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
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Due to taking drones off of gas, having an expansion, and 2 queens your econ can quickly out pace your opponent's. You admit to making mistakes, remember that it is possible that your opponent made even more. Also, if his rush had not been all in he wouldn't have been nearly as behind in econ. I obviously haven't seen the game you're talking about but it sounds like your opponent could've simply done a contain if he had done the 5RR and then played macro heavy and gotten a big lead.
Thanks for the great build Fist, sorry you got so much flak for it.
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On October 20 2010 01:26 ewswes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 20:08 Shakes wrote:On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote:
still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in. Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression: a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
Next game you play check the income tab once you pull drones off gas. You'll see that mineral-wise you aren't actually that behind on income. You'll have little to no gas income (depending if you leave a drone in or not), but other than that you'll be close. Then when you transition out of it you pump a round or two of drones and stick drones back in gas.
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On October 20 2010 01:26 ewswes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 20:08 Shakes wrote:On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote:
still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in. Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression: a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
You don't have a point. You are posting in a thread about a specific build, wondering how anyone could lose to it, citing your experience vs a completely differenty build. Like another post above me states, you aren't economically behind by much. You are only behind if your attack does 0 damage. If you even take out a pylon/depot you can break even, and roaches can now outrange marines/marauds when hitting depots (marauder has 6 range roach has 4, roaches can stand in a place to hit the depot with careful position iirc).
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i computed a 5rr with fast expand:
Player D14#S28#H2#Q0 {time=@04'31, supply=28, units=27, mins=236.87999999999977, value=7477, gas=49.299999999999955, army=[Lings, Roach, Roach, Roach], gameobjects=[Hatchery{larva=0, timer=15, state=1, drones=12}, Pool, Hatchery{larva=0, timer=14, state=1, drones=0}, Extractor{drones=3, maxDrones=3}, RoachWarren, Egg{action=BuildRoach}, Egg{action=BuildDrone}, Egg{action=BuildRoach}] actions:[BuildExtractor, DroneFromGas, BuildSpine]}
[6/10 BuildDrone @00'01]
[7/10 BuildDrone @00'12]
[8/10 BuildDrone @00'23]
[9/10 BuildOvie @00'41]
[9/10 BuildDrone @00'49]
[10/18 BuildDrone @01'08]
[11/18 BuildDrone @01'09]
[12/18 BuildDrone @01'16]
[13/18 BuildDrone @01'31]
[14/18 BuildDrone @01'46]
[15/18 BuildPool @01'48]
[14/18 BuildDrone @02'01]
[15/18 BuildDrone @02'16]
[16/18 BuildHatch @02'29]
[15/18 BuildExtractor @02'31]
[14/18 BuildDrone @02'36]
[15/18 BuildLings @02'54]
[16/18 BuildWarren @02'56]
[15/18 BuildOvie @03'06]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'07]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'08]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'09]
[15/18 BuildDrone @03'16]
[16/26 BuildRoach @03'52]
[18/26 BuildRoach @03'53]
[20/26 BuildRoach @04'01]
[22/26 BuildRoach @04'16]
[24/28 BuildDrone @04'30]
[25/28 BuildRoach @04'31]
Note: you won't be able to match computed times, as the program does not include walking times of drones, however your roach timing should be round the 5'00 minute mark as in the original build. Try to build pool and warren ASAP as they get avaiable (you easily loose some 5..10 seconds each if you execute this sloppy (pool loose 10 + warren loose 10 = 20 seconds late). Try to minimize the walking distance of the building drone and/or take it of the minerals before you get the money need to build.
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On October 20 2010 04:54 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
i computed a 5rr with fast expand:
Player D14#S28#H2#Q0 {time=@04'31, supply=28, units=27, mins=236.87999999999977, value=7477, gas=49.299999999999955, army=[Lings, Roach, Roach, Roach], gameobjects=[Hatchery{larva=0, timer=15, state=1, drones=12}, Pool, Hatchery{larva=0, timer=14, state=1, drones=0}, Extractor{drones=3, maxDrones=3}, RoachWarren, Egg{action=BuildRoach}, Egg{action=BuildDrone}, Egg{action=BuildRoach}] actions:[BuildExtractor, DroneFromGas, BuildSpine]}
[6/10 BuildDrone @00'01]
[7/10 BuildDrone @00'12]
[8/10 BuildDrone @00'23]
[9/10 BuildOvie @00'41]
[9/10 BuildDrone @00'49]
[10/18 BuildDrone @01'08]
[11/18 BuildDrone @01'09]
[12/18 BuildDrone @01'16]
[13/18 BuildDrone @01'31]
[14/18 BuildDrone @01'46]
[15/18 BuildPool @01'48]
[14/18 BuildDrone @02'01]
[15/18 BuildDrone @02'16]
[16/18 BuildHatch @02'29]
[15/18 BuildExtractor @02'31]
[14/18 BuildDrone @02'36]
[15/18 BuildLings @02'54]
[16/18 BuildWarren @02'56]
[15/18 BuildOvie @03'06]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'07]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'08]
[15/18 DroneToGas @03'09]
[15/18 BuildDrone @03'16]
[16/26 BuildRoach @03'52]
[18/26 BuildRoach @03'53]
[20/26 BuildRoach @04'01]
[22/26 BuildRoach @04'16]
[24/28 BuildDrone @04'30]
[25/28 BuildRoach @04'31]
Note: you won't be able to match computed times, as the program does not include walking times of drones, however your roach timing should be round the 5'00 minute mark as in the original build. Try to build pool and warren ASAP as they get avaiable (you easily loose some 5..10 seconds each if you execute this sloppy (pool loose 10 + warren loose 10 = 20 seconds late). Try to minimize the walking distance of the building drone and/or take it of the minerals before you get the money need to build.
No queen?
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL
13 Pool
12 Gas
15 OL
15 Queen
15 Lings
2 More drones
100 Gas -> Ling Speed
Queen 75% done Roach Warren
Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
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Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
extra info: And to add to that even if i contain the protoss while i get some expos, they all have gone dt's, killed my drones then killed me.
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On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote:
Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap.
If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras.
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On October 20 2010 05:38 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote:
Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp? You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap. If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras.
ah thanks for tip, liquipedia says scout isn't neccessary because your roaches will scout early enough, I guess that was the last time i trusted liquipedia.
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On October 20 2010 05:43 Roflhaxx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 05:38 MorsCerta wrote:On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote:
Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp? You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap. If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras. ah thanks for tip, liquipedia says scout isn't neccessary because your roaches will scout early enough, I guess that was the last time i trusted liquipedia.
I haven't read the liquipedia entry for this build but the 2 lings you make to kill the enemy scout should always always always be sitting outside your opponents base poking up to get the enemy army composition and general scouting.
Even when you are doing a different strat. Those lings outside his doorstep show army composition and when/if your enemy is moving his army out. Letting you know how many/if you should throw down spine crawlers, how large there army is, what their composition is, what your unit composition needs to be by the time the enemy army reaches your base. Etc. Etc. You need to be able to discern all of this within a matter of 1-2 seconds. At least if you are droning hard and not preparing for an attack. I prefer to FE and drone till the last possible second throwing down 3-4 spines and spamming out ling/roach/hydra but thats just me.
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On October 20 2010 05:32 MorsCerta wrote:
No queen?
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL
13 Pool
12 Gas
15 OL
15 Queen
15 Lings
2 More drones
100 Gas -> Ling Speed
Queen 75% done Roach Warren
Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
How many drones does your build produce when the roaches finish, and at what time do the roaches finish ?
A queen will delay the roaches and/or expo, however it is possible to build 2 queens right after the roaches as you got minerals and 16 drones.
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Any 1.1.2 replays available of those builds?
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A lot of these builds are not as refined as they could be. I would suggest testing various things out in a build order tester to work the kinks out.
As an example if you want to expand as your roaches move out and deny scouting, you can use a build like this.
9 OL
13 Pool
16 Gas
15 ol
When pool finishes, make 1 set of lings, make a queen, put three drones on gas.
The pair of lings are used to deny scouting, you can make two sets of lings if you prefer.
Make your roach warren when the queen is 35/50
Drone to 20 then make an OL
When the larvae pops off, the roach warren will finish at the same time, you will have seven larvae and just enough minerals and gas to make seven roaches.
Take one or two drones off of gas depending on how fast you want ling speed and lair.
When the roaches hatch, you will have 300 minerals and can expand.
Then while you are scaring your opponent with seven roaches, drone up and take the eco lead quite easily.
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On October 20 2010 16:05 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2010 05:32 MorsCerta wrote:
No queen?
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL
13 Pool
12 Gas
15 OL
15 Queen
15 Lings
2 More drones
100 Gas -> Ling Speed
Queen 75% done Roach Warren
Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
How many drones does your build produce when the roaches finish, and at what time do the roaches finish ? A queen will delay the roaches and/or expo, however it is possible to build 2 queens right after the roaches as you got minerals and 16 drones.
I have 16 drones when my roaches are finished. Roaches finish around the 5 minute mark little earlier or later depending on little things.
The thing is, if I do not make my queen before my roaches I have to delay my expand. I can expand as my roaches are moving across the field and then drone up hard. Also I am getting ling speed BEFORE my roaches pop. Ling speed finishes as my roaches are walking across the field as well meaning if I follow up with a round of splings they will be there shortly after I begin my attack. This is best to do against a protoss that is finishing warp. They warp in a round of stalkers and you have 8-12 Lings (depending on if you were saving larvae) on the way.
Getting a queen before roaches does not delay my expo any more than getting 2 of them afterwards would. Spawn Larvae and my roach warren normally pop at the same time so I dont see how my roaches are delayed. I get my 5 roaches immediately and I only get them when I need them (when I am moving out) as opposed to having some sitting in my base doing nothing.
On October 21 2010 04:13 shmoo wrote:
A lot of these builds are not as refined as they could be. I would suggest testing various things out in a build order tester to work the kinks out.
As an example if you want to expand as your roaches move out and deny scouting, you can use a build like this.
9 OL
13 Pool
16 Gas
15 ol
When pool finishes, make 1 set of lings, make a queen, put three drones on gas.
The pair of lings are used to deny scouting, you can make two sets of lings if you prefer.
Make your roach warren when the queen is 35/50
Drone to 20 then make an OL
When the larvae pops off, the roach warren will finish at the same time, you will have seven larvae and just enough minerals and gas to make seven roaches.
Take one or two drones off of gas depending on how fast you want ling speed and lair.
When the roaches hatch, you will have 300 minerals and can expand.
Then while you are scaring your opponent with seven roaches, drone up and take the eco lead quite easily.
I get Ling Speed before my roaches. That will not work with 16 gas. A Roach Warren made between 50-75% queen completion will pop at the same time as spawn larvae.
This build order is more all in. 2 more roaches is 150 more minerals and 50 more gas and 2 less drones. Ling speed is important in a roach rush against protoss as you need speedlings for stalkers, and if you arent going all in 2 more roaches shouldn't make or break you, those resources could probably be better used for expanding or teching. Any opponent with 5 roaches on their door step is going to over produce military units. And the ones that dont you are going to lose to.
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On October 21 2010 03:18 Khaldor wrote:
Any 1.1.2 replays available of those builds?
On October 13 2010 21:28 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 14:22 ewswes wrote:On October 13 2010 13:46 MorsCerta wrote:On October 13 2010 11:43 ewswes wrote:On October 13 2010 00:43 MorsCerta wrote:On October 12 2010 12:02 ewswes wrote:On October 12 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote:
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss. Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult. The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage. I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers. don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap. Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off. Umm....roaches attacked the zealots? Roaches kite zealots -> zealots either on hold and die or chase and die, if they chase run speedlings past zealots to surround stalkers -> roaches kill zealots -> finish up stalkers. The time he had a sentry I believe he cut my roaches into 2 and 3, i focused down the zealots because they were in range then he warped in stalkers to counter my roaches and my speedlings were waiting outside for the FF to go away. FF goes away I simply run in and at this point my second wave of speedlings is on the way. i would imagine the correct thing to do would be warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers to maintain a FF but my opponent is not aware of speedlings waiting outside nor do most people when under pressure have the composure to warp in a caster. People think oh shitshitshit need dps roaches here ok STALKERS! Which is really their downfall. I'll try to find replays for you I have saved and also I'll open this on toss every opportunity I have and save you more replays. I think the main thing though is all toss scouts at the most is I am researching ling speed. I never ever have let a toss scout my roach warren going down and if they do I would probably cancel and expand. I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in. When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require. I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz. edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game. Want to face each other and see exactly how many sentries you can get out? I honestly just cant see you even able to get 500 gas that quickly especially not while teching robo (many toss I face go Gateway->Cyber->Robo and chronoing WarpTech->Gateway). 500 gas + build time off of 1 or 2 gateways while also building 2-3 zealots. 3 zealots and 5 sentries in under 5 minutes off of 1 or 2 gateways? I don't play toss so I could be way off just seems iffy. However I am also not saying that 5RR is a top zerg strat, just that I am finding it is still a useful weapon to have in my Build Orders if I see a toss being greedy or if my 2 poke lings scout a shit army composition. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157300.jpg) This is what I face more often than not, and he even walled with gate/cyber. Normally I would not have attacked facing that wall but against his army composition I was fairly certain I would come out on top.
Thats 1.1.2, as are the other replays I posed either on page 37 or 38. I have more replays on my computer at home if you want me to upload them. I'm at work right now.
Found 2 others of mine:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157308.jpg)
I believe I was around 1200 Diamond then, I am a little over 1300 now.
5RR is not a be all end all strategy, its a nice little attack for when your opponents seem unprepared.
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On October 21 2010 03:18 Khaldor wrote:
Any 1.1.2 replays available of those builds?
Any replay of this being successfully scouted and fended off? Preferably on Scrap Station?
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-159744.jpg)
Just thought this was a good example of 5RR ZvZ, I did the build order the same but I got my roaches more slowly as I was planning on using them to wall against a ling/bling attack that never ended up coming.
Also I think this replay shows good transition to roach/hydra/infestor...minus the part where I hit B-H instead of V-H...and built a hatchery instead of a hydra den lolz. 1300 diamondish.
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This is the 'worst case' Zerg build that I try to counter as Protoss. Usually when scouting reveals the zerg is not doing an FE build, I get a 1-2 zealots to defend against ling cheese, then a sentry, and start pumping stalkers after that. This rush will arrive when I have 1-2 stalkers, and another close to ready. They push ahead and get split up at their own peril. Otherwise, I tend to make additional stalkers to fend off the fast-muta timing, so later roach heavy variations end up just as dead, especially as I prefer to 2 gate robo.
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Okay, so I've recently seen roach rushes brought back into popularity in general among the pro scene, and as I was a HUGE proponent of this build from back in the day when this thread was first posted by Fistdantilus I started opening some games with the 5RR again, to see how it would fare now that I've climbed quite a bit higher on the ladder since last august.
But I was a little bit rusty on the build, and instead of searching for this thread I just hit it up on Liquipedia.
Guys, the Liquipedia build is WRONG. Very wrong. It's like some terrible bastardized version of the 7RR all-in, which basically completely defeats the purpose of the 5RR (note the thread title, which was originally meant to read early game aggression without the all-in).
No wonder this build was getting a bad rap from people and died down in the last few months after the thread started to sink into the depths of the forum. I feel like this thread needs a bump so people can give the ORIGINAL 'Fist' build a fresh look in the present day metagame.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-157450.jpg)
