Looking into other early options for zerg, I've come up with a very good opening against both terran and protoss: the 5 roach rush! It's capable of breaking into your opponents' base early on without going all-in. If it fails, one injection-round of drones and you're usually leading in the worker count.
Banelings are great, but way too expensive to use every game. Taking down a supply depot or pylon costs 250/125, and you have to have fighting units on top of that! With the 5RR, the roaches pull double duty by destroying the depot/pylon and still being around after it's gone. Not to mention they are fantastic against early zealots/marines.
Pros:
Does significant damage or even wins outright vs some openings. The good thing is that it's strong against openings that we hate to see: stargate, 1-1-1, reaper, and hellion openings.
Can get around the stupid wall-ins
Doesn't wreck your economy. When the roaches are leaving your base, many times you're ahead in workers as well as putting your expansion down.
If you break into their base, you can just rally and send more guys as your next round of larvae have popped.
Crushes a 2-gate**
Allows you to set up a hellion contain if you get there early enough
Forces the game into certain channels: 4-gate, marauders/thor.
Cons:
Completely fails against some openings (marauders, stalkers). I'm saying don't even attack type of fail because you'll insta-lose.
If your opponent is opening with marauders or stalkers, you have to back-tech to zerglings ASAP or you'll often die outright.
If your opponent opens with stalkers/marauders, you'll be behind economically than if you didn't rush.
Forces the game into certain channels: 4-gate, marauders/thor.
Build Order
9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is 70% done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
UPDATE: taking drones off of gas greatly helps you to power drones and push out a queen for air defense if you should need it.
Use your zerglings to kill the enemy scout or shoo him away before you drop the roach warren: this isn't too necessary against terran as he'll have committed to his tech path by this point. Against protoss it's more so he doesn't start building stalkers/sentries. Many times they'll have multiple zealots blocking and the game is pretty easy. If they know roaches are coming, they just make stalkers and it's not going to happen for you.
Also, sometimes you'll want to do a 1-base muta strategy, or a simple pool->gas->hatch powering build. Keeping the worker out of there makes it a guessing game for THEM for once! This helps a lot in match play (or if you get paired against the same opponent in league), as your opponent will often be waiting for an attack that never comes.
A great thing about this strategy is that it's very flexible: it's not all-in by any means, but certainly can be. By the time the roaches leave your base, you'll have 18 drones and an expansion hatchery going down. If you get to the opponent's front door and you can't get in, pumping out 6+ drones from your recent injection pop puts you at equal count if not ahead of your opponent.
At your opponent's base, try and find the weakest spot. Against terran, it's often just focusing down a supply depot and barging in there. Roaches can hit repairing SCV's, which is really nice. You may lose a roach or two breaking down the depot, which is fine and normal. Against protoss, often the weakest link in the wall are the zealots. However, it's sometimes best to focus down a pylon if it's the only one powering the gateways/cyber. If you break the wall, rally and spam zerglings. Generally if you break in you tend to win immediately. If you don't break in, just spam drones and retreat.
Learn your roach micro! Move-Stop-Move-Stop to make the absolute most out of your roaches (the replays have tons of examples of this). Your opponents will often bring out their workers, and it's very important you don't get your roaches surrounded! Just lead them on a merry chase around their base, slowly killing them off and giving your zerglings time to get there.
Roaches need constant micro in combat. Both right-clicking on a building/unit and attack-move are strictly awful for roaches. What will happen is that the first line of roaches fire while the rest scamper around behind them. You need to right click in front of the unit/building you want to attack so they walk right up to it, then either stop or attack-move or right click on a unit. The AI treats them like a range unit, but you need to manually override that to treat them like a melee unit.
Once your opponent sees early roaches, they tend to make units that crush roaches: immortals, marauders, thors. This means a back-tech to zerglings is usually the best, which is why researching zergling speed is in there.
Keeping up with your injections is severely important to this strategy! Since you're on one hatchery for awhile, these injections are vital. Also, you really can't spare any energy for creep tumors until your 2nd hatch is up.
That's all there is to it! Marines and zealots at the ramp are pretty easy to deal with, and often you can force your way in. In that case, just rally and spam units to him. If the rush fails, it's not a huge loss as you have enough drones as well as an expansion hatch.
The 5RR channels the game away from super early air units and takes away some of the openings that are troublesome for zerg. However, if your opponent was making anti-roach units, then you're a little behind where you should be had you not rushed and you need to quickly back-tech into zerglings. Overall, the positives greatly outweigh the negatives.
**vs a 2-gate: include a few roaches/lings early on if the zealots will arrive before the injection pops.
EDIT: People have asked some intelligent questions in the thread, and I have tried to respond as well as i could. If you scan for my responses, there's a good chance your question was already answered.
Replays of it in action:
I'm going to show a few of replays where it just kills my opponent outright, and then one where the game goes further just to show how easy it is to rebound the instant things don't go well.
We have several 800+ diamond players in this group of replays, showing that this can topple almost anyone.
NOTE: All of the replays are on the old 13/15 build, but all of the ideas remain the same.
5RR vs fast stargate:
5RR vs FE protoss:
5RR vs 3 rax reaper:
5RR vs 5 rax reaper:
Example of 5RR where I don't deal too much damage and the game goes long:
EDIT: Replays where the game goes long. These aren't the best quality replays, just recent ones that show how to bounce back in macro after you're held off (keep the Income tab open when watching the replay). The result of the game isn't important, and neither are my glaring mistakes. =) Just that the opening transitions nicely into a macro game.
About me: Fistdantilus. 1100+ Rank 1 Diamond. I'm not amazing, or even very good, just OK for now.
With a later expo and no banelings. Any damage you could do with your build, I would think the roach/baneling build would do even more damage (as it gets through the wall faster with the 5 roaches with the banelings). And with only 1 base (until after the attack starts), you will be less able to spam lings/drones to power or prevent a counter attack.
That build is an all-in. This isn't. There's no reason for the banelings as the roaches can do it cheaper and almost as good.
Once your opponent scans that baneling nest, they throw up bunkers like you wouldn't believe. Diamond terrans almost always scan for it too, FYI. If the attack doesn't succeed, with that build you may as well quit the game. This currently doesn't have that drawback.
EDIT: Watch the replays: I get through the wall consistently without banelings.
I strongly disagree about the other build being all-in. Having personaly not dont much damage vr diamond players many times with it and still won the game! as well as had other diamond level players also not do damage and still recover. For instance he scans you, sees the baneling nest and puts down 2 bunkers at his ramp, no way your going to bust all of that, but you can just not attack, and drone pump out of both bases and be totaly fine in econ in no time while still being safe because he spent the 200 mins on bunkers (and 300 from scan).
Still I would say the other build puts you more behind economicly if it doesnt work (but with more possibilities to catch up given the extra larva from the earlier second hatch).
i think this could work vs toss on a map like blistering sands where the back door is easy to pressure. but on maps like kulas or even lt i think that there's just too many ways to punish a build like this. its quite standard for ps to add in a sentry vs. z and once they see your warren go up they can add in stalkers quite easily.
im not sure if you're only building 2 zerglings (i think that's what you meant), but if that's the case, then i don't think a p player would lose their scout before you throw down your roach warren.
I don't see how you could suggest this build as a 900 rating diamond. 2 gate zealot pressure into 2 gate zealot+stalker destroys this from what I've seen (or just quick stalker/sentry). The combination of zealots with stalkers beats zerglings with roaches I've found.
A roach rush build will be scouted and any decent player would react to it.
Personally, I came up with a faster roach rush build, back when roaches were better units (actually, among the first weeks of the beta). I'd go 12 pool before overlord, then double gas (again) cancel 1, drone, overlord, then obviously roach warren when pool finishes. The problem is that roaches are the worst t2/t1.5 unit in the game due to their slow speed and short range. Only with upgrades do they become decent, but by that point, they can be hard countered even more.
Maybe I should watch some replays, but personally I don't like doing that mcuh. Reading a few posts is generally much much quicker.
kulas' backdoor takes too long to knock down though cuz you have 2 sets of rocks to go through imo. by that time even 4 gate should be able to take this on. i watched one replay (asp) and i do think it can be powerful if the protoss player doesn't react to the roach warren being thrown down like in the replay i saw. the guy continued making zealots and chronoing out probes when he should be chronoing out stalkers and sentries.
I don't see how you could suggest this build as a 900 rating diamond. 2 gate zealot pressure into 2 gate zealot+stalker destroys this from what I've seen (or just quick stalker/sentry). The combination of zealots with stalkers beats zerglings with roaches I've found.
The 2-gate zealots don't get there in time. If they arrive early with 3, you delay them with your queen and maybe make an extra set of lings to hold. Once the roaches pop, you eat through 5 free zealots with roach micro. It's not difficult.
A roach rush build will be scouted and any decent player would react to it.
How will they scout it, exactly? The roaches usually aren't in my base when the scan goes down, and the worker is dead or gone. Sometimes they do scout it with a late worker, mostly they don't.
Personally, I came up with a faster roach rush build, back when roaches were better units (actually, among the first weeks of the beta). I'd go 12 pool before overlord, then double gas (again) cancel 1, drone, overlord, then obviously roach warren when pool finishes.
A 6-pool is faster than a 14 pool at getting lings out, why don't you do that every game? See what I'm getting at?
The problem is that roaches are the worst t2/t1.5 unit in the game due to their slow speed and short range. Only with upgrades do they become decent, but by that point, they can be hard countered even more.
I actually don't build any more than these 5 roaches, ever. They are just to get through the buildings.
On August 20 2010 12:13 obsid wrote: Try 15 drones (compared to the 17 drones you would have at the time), and on 2 hatcheries.
I'm not saying its better econ build, but its not all-in.
Read this thread if you want to learn more:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143155
Correct, the link you give here has a build that is not an all-in.
However, being hatch before pool I can assure you it's slower than what I posted as well as having fewer drones. I can't see the advantage to it as written, but I think this person is pretty close if they ditch the banelings.
Wow those are some bad terran players lol. What league was this (or were the people you faced as I assume it wasnt ranked). No repair on the wall at all in any of the games I wantched, and one of the guys tried a proxy 3 rax marine rush lol. And the other guy rushed starport. Clearly anyone doing eather of those stupid things will lose to this build no problem.
A two-gate zealot into stalkers will give you problems if you only have roaches, especially if you expand soon after the first five roaches pop. However if you mix in some lings to backstab the stalkers while pulling the zealots with the roaches, you should be fine.
EDIT: For the record, I was agreeing with the OP that his 5-roach build can do well against 2-gate toss if executed properly.
It's like none of you even read the post before responding? =(
Wow those are some bad terran players lol. What league was this (or were the people you faced as I assume it wasnt ranked).
All diamond. Several 800+ diamond; didn't check them all.
Repairing the depot doesn't work because the roaches just snipe the SCV. There's no point in even trying.
A two-gate zealot into stalkers will give you problems if you only have roaches, especially if you expand soon after the first five roaches pop. However if you mix in some lings to backstab the stalkers while pulling the zealots with the roaches, you should be fine.
Re-copying from my original post:
"Once your opponent sees early roaches, they tend to make units that crush roaches: immortals, marauders, thors. This means a back-tech to zerglings is usually the best, which is why researching zergling speed is in there."
On August 20 2010 12:16 Fistdantilus wrote: Okay, we'll take them one at a time. The 2-gate zealots don't get there in time. If they arrive early with 3, you delay them with your queen and maybe make an extra set of lings to hold. Once the roaches pop, you eat through 5 free zealots with roach micro. It's not difficult.
How will they scout it, exactly? The roaches usually aren't in my base when the scan goes down, and the worker is dead or gone. Sometimes they do scout it with a late worker, mostly they don't.
you DO NOT eat through 5 free zealots. How the hell could you get away with saying that as a 900 diamond? good players run away when they are in danger, and zealots are the same speed as roaches, so you don't be dealing any major damage to the zealots.
Not only that, but as long as roaches don't have speed upgrade or are on creep, they aren't that strong against zealots. Microed roaches can beat an equal number of zealots (unmicroed, zealots win), but it's not hard to get stalkers and or more than 5 zealots in the time it takes to get 5 roaches to the opponent.
When it comes to scouting, how do you expect the scout to be dead? what are you going to kill the scout with? lings will pop out AFTER the roach warren starts unless you start it AFTER the queen is halfway done (assuming you start queen as soon as possible). Maybe a delayed roach warren would not be scouted unless they did double scout (which I find still happens), but that just makes the roaches that much slower. I could see this strategy being good against terran though, as long as the warren is delayed a bit more. This way you will be able to attack them when they will likely do a wall off quick tech build. I simply don't see it being viable vs protoss though.
With regards to my 12pool before overlord roach rush, I wasn't saying it is better (although I can't say it is worse), just thought I'd mention it while on the topic.
He was asking about 2-gate zealot pressure. To have pressure, wouldn't you assume those zealots are in the base? If they're in the base, my roaches are on creep. Even if the zealots run away, often the zealots die at their own ramp because there aren't enough stalkers yet built.
Not only that, but as long as roaches don't have speed upgrade or are on creep, they aren't that strong against zealots.
So wait. Before you're claiming that the zealots would run away because they wouldn't allow themselves to die unnecessarily, but now you're claiming that the most the roaches can hope for is equal losses. Which is it? What's the point of running then if everything just dies?
Micro'ed roaches > zealots early game, and it's not close.
When it comes to scouting, how do you expect the scout to be dead? what are you going to kill the scout with? lings that pop out AFTER the roach warren starts? How the hell could you possibly say you wouldn't be scouted?
I'm scouted every single game. It takes seconds for two lings to kill a worker, so I'm really confused why everyone is up in arms over this. All I'm saying is that I put down the warren after my lings pop. My opponent can either run his worker away or let it die. Either way is good to me.
Thank you for this. Don't understand the critisicm. You even posted an example on how you easily transitioned from the attack. And you had all yourr bases saturated quickly. You didn't lose as a result of your strategy.
punishes any kind of tech play. im in plat and my roach rush isnt quite as smoothed out as yours. gonna give it a try. i think this might be good against quick reapers too which is so common. i like the hatch going down when you push out also.
obsid - a quick starport is part of the 1-1-1 build that many, many terrans do against zerg. l2p.
On August 20 2010 14:02 itzbrandnew wrote: Having watched the replays I can say that this would have a very tough time vs a terran who walls with fac/rax and not a supply depot/tech
Correct! That's one of those times where you just turn around and go home, or set up a hellion contain in front of his base. Though the 5RR is very good against rax/fax that are placed at the bottom of the ramp.
It's possible as well to scout with your lings to even avoid making the roaches if you see this, but I generally make the roaches to do a hellion contain anyway and make drones instead of lings.
On August 20 2010 14:04 Vaporized wrote: i think this might be good against quick reapers too which is so common.
It definitely is, but the key is to make a roach or two after your initial group leaves so you have some defense.
Got into a game today where we base-traded 7 minutes in because reapers killed my main and he flew away on LT to the island. I won, but it took 30 minutes. -_-
Watched the replays and thought it over. It's a nice strat. Definitely puts the hurt on greedy play, while retaining that zergy pressure and macro-fest afterwards. I like this, and I'm definitely going to try it. I've been looking for a better strat than the ol' bling bust, and this looks great.
On August 20 2010 14:02 itzbrandnew wrote: Having watched the replays I can say that this would have a very tough time vs a terran who walls with fac/rax and not a supply depot/tech
Correct! That's one of those times where you just turn around and go home, or set up a hellion contain in front of his base. Though the 5RR is very good against rax/fax that are placed at the bottom of the ramp.
It's possible as well to scout with your lings to even avoid making the roaches if you see this, but I generally make the roaches to do a hellion contain anyway and make drones instead of lings.
I'm not really set in any race and have been playing all three... I'm going to try zerg opening with this since playing as Z my main gripe is that I don't have a very good opening to execute (especially vs smart terrans with good walls)
Problem with this build is.. any actually decent Terran will open speed reaper and be harassing you in your base, so he'll already have the rax(es) w/tech lab available to pump a marauder + bunker immediately as soon as he scouts the roach warren.
Vs. Protoss I can see it working decently vs 2-gate if the P doesn't see it coming at all, but like you said in the cons, if they scout well they can hold it off nicely and put you at a disadvantage. I'll still give it a try and see how it goes.
Most terrans going reapers will focus on reapers first and foremost, which means less gas for marauders. To be honest, I think today was the closest I've gotten to losing to reapers while doing this opening.
Most terrans I face don't go for reapers once they see the gas before hatch, as reapers are just not that effective vs early speedlings or roaches.
EDIT: before screaming about the LzGamer reaper replays, both zerg went hatch before gas which completely sucks against reaper openings.
Great post Fistdantilus, hopefully you'll just ignore most of the instant criticism on the first page. I'll definitely have to give this build a try...
I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in.
I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core.
Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it):
EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad.
On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it.
i can only suggest to build pool earlier and build 2 lings to kill that annoying scout, so he wouldnt know what you are doing something like 9ol 11/12 pool
The terran replays don't really show anything, the T players didn't know how to repair, one of them only made a couple marines, and the other did an incredibly dumb proxy rax rush. Repairing the wall + defending definitely works, I've done it before. The roaches can focus the SCVs but you can pull the SCVs back, run to repair the wall, etc. You lose a few SCVs at worst by time the roaches have to leave.
Very nicely made post. For all of the people criticizing or offering better strategies, I recommend uploading replays as Fistdantilus has done to support his claims. In particular the claims of "I do this or I do that and it's better." They don't make for great discussion.
Back to the topic.
If you do scout early double tech lab rax or two gate cyber for quick stalkers, what's your next move? Retreat back to the natural and spine crawler up or simply the mass speedlings?
Typical TL lately has been: "show a replay or you're just theorycrafting." Then, when you provide replays it turns into "you played a bunch of noobs, that would never work in plat+" even though you're beating 600D opponents. So let them hate. I, for one, will play with your ideas.
I really like 1 base ling/roach openings against P lately. I can easily fend off 2 gates, and tend to be in a very good spot for the inevitable 4 gate (I expand immediately when I see the cyber core or just lack of a 2nd gate).
I have completely crushed the 2-gate>4-gate>expand play that is so typical these days, so I am pretty happy sticking to lings and roaches for quite a while. I wish they would do something about 2 supply Roaches as it's super easy to get supply blocked in a straight 4-gate situation, and that WILL cost you the game every time against a decent opponent, but other than that, I can vouch, from experience, ling/roach with only 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expo is the way to go against 4 gate.
I, personally go much heavier on the ling early, and I am content to just having a ball of 10 lings keeping tabs on Ps ramp until he pushes out. But I will try out these early Roaches, they might just let me end the game right there if he's going Void Rays or something really bad like that.
Against T, I'm not sure if I am so supportive. Don't get me wrong, I always build a Roach Warren while my Lair is morphing, but earlier roaches means less, and later Mutas. I prefer to transition back down to roaches after I see T has 20 Marines, 5 Thors, a handful of Hellions, and no Tanks. I'll give it a try though. Anything that forces more units out of T earlier sounds great to me, maybe I can go for early roaches and skip ling speed until later or something... we'll see.
On August 20 2010 12:35 Fistdantilus wrote: It's like none of you even read the post before responding? =(
too many ppl on TL like this
Just shutting down ideas/BOs/strats just cause they think they're better than the OP or they think they could have responded better the OP's Opponents
NEWS FLASH TL: If his opponents knew he was doing this exact build i'm pretty sure they would have responded differently
So to the people whom are saying that scouting will stop this dead, when you see a roach warren, you know they will be doing the 5RR for sure? 100%?
as for the build
I will definitely try using this...I can't be going speedling/muta for all the games.
One question, if the RR fails and they counter attack, is it possible to defend and not fall too far behind in econ??
Obviously I can't know if he's going 5RR when I scout roach warren or if he's going roach all-in or if he's only make 3 roaches. The thing is, it doesn't really matter, I'm getting stalkers ASAP in any case.
I think his post is helpful, I just think he's overestimating its ability to dominate 2 gate. PvZ is by far my best matchup, and when I get pretty happy when I see the early roach warren because it really narrows down their options for the first 5-6 minutes.
again, this is one of those builds which may work, but you're banking on your opponent not reacting properly. It certainly can win you some games, but probably you wont be able to beat someone with this opening twice, i mean if the opponent knows it's coming you either lose or will be set back.
Roach rushes are great on bistering sands vs protoss IMO. I don't think its possible for zerg to win ZvP on that map without rushing if protoss 4gates properly.
Why are people so quick to call this strat stupid. The OP posted 7+ replays all demonstrating its power yet people think its more constructive to cry about roaches and counter builds without even analyzing this build first. This build might not be an "every time" opener, but it keeps your opponent on his feet and punishes heavy techers with little repercussions on the zerg econ.
Thanks OP for this build
Also here's a Vid of tasteless beating Day[9] using something very similar to this build Roach Rush
LoL it's the same thing every time someone posts a strategy in here: several pages of people shouting: "It will never work, blah blah blah, I'm not even gonna watch the replay because blah blah blah" "Now I have watched the replay and you only won because of blah blah blah random event blah"
Seriously, give the guy a break. He even wrote himself that this build has pros AND cons. Of course you can theorycraft some scenario were it would be utterly defeated, but there are very very few builds (if any) that you couldn't do that with. Sometimes it is the fact the build is NOT standard and therefor NOT expected that makes it good.
Does it really matter if some elite pro would loose or win with this build. Do you honestly think that Idra, DuckloadRa or "whatever-pro" comes here to find the strategy or build-order that is going to win them the next tournament? I get the whole idea of TL.net being the forum of the elite, but pretending to be elite by bashing other people really isn't elite, it's just annoying.
On August 20 2010 17:10 Hasudk wrote: LoL it's the same thing every time someone posts a strategy in here: several pages of people shouting: "It will never work, blah blah blah, I'm not even gonna watch the replay because blah blah blah" "Now I have watched the replay and you only won because of blah blah blah random event blah"
Seriously, give the guy a break. He even wrote himself that this build has pros AND cons. Of course you can theorycraft some scenario were it would be utterly defeated, but there are very very few builds (if any) that you couldn't do that with. Sometimes it is the fact the build is NOT standard and therefor NOT expected that makes it good.
Does it really matter if some elite pro would loose or win with this build. Do you honestly think that Idra, DuckloadRa or "whatever-pro" comes here to find the strategy or build-order that is going to win them the next tournament? I get the whole idea of TL.net being the forum of the elite, but pretending to be elite by bashing other people really isn't elite, it's just annoying.
I completely agree. Most people I see don't even post any sort of constructive criticism (I think some are led to believe they are posting constructive criticism, but all it really comes down to is, "lol I can beat this strategy ezpz. ~explanation here~")
I can understand most of the logic in this thread, but seriously, if you are going to say ANYTHING negative about the strategy, then at least ask for games from him if you think he is completely wrong - then perhaps post results afterward to this thread.
So I tested this build out and I really like it. I've been doing a lot of one base muta vs. T recently. (actually detailing the build here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712)
Love the muta build, but it doesn't always work against mech plays.
After testing this with my practice partner, I think I can safely say this build works where my muta build does not. The best part is, they both look very similar in the early game, so even against someone who knows my playstyle, my opponent will have to make a gamble at some point.
Guys don't assume a player isn't good or hasn't read the posts, or hasn't watched the replays just because they disagree with the build.
This build has merit vs terran since tech with walls are so common, but good protosses who 2 gate will not get hurt by something like this. It could be used against 1 gates fine.
The only guy that did a good 1 gate was whiplash, and the Fast Expander was a joke of a player.
I guess the key is that you don't need to do this build if you're facing a 2 gate build though.
I guess my build fits around this one as I've had it done to me a few times and each time they never manage to break my wall, the marines focus fires down a roach in a decent ammount of time but seemingly I didn't save the replays, but I'm sure I'll run into it again. I get the whole idea, and I get why it would work. What I don't get is that comment about repairing not working. Yea perhaps if you send one SCV but are people really that scared to pull of workers? I usually pull of 4 or so and at most lose 2 if i'm having a bad day, and that could hardly be considered a succses for the Zerg player.
I really HATE the creator of this thread. I used this build for a long time and it's working in all the match-ups ZvZ,ZvP,ZvT. Sometimes you have to decide whether to go expo after it or mass speedlings or whatever you choose but i find expand the best option. Btw. Protoss can't stop it going 2 gate if he makes more than 2 zealots. You can also make a roach warren about 65% of Queen production and still be able to finish at the same time(lately i did it that it ended at the same second). I prefer this build as Z because it prevents : hellions,reapers,2/3 proxy gate, ling/bane in ZvZ which are the most common builds on the ladder right now. I also tend to put down Lair just after my expansion so i can have hydras against banshee, void ray (if i scout it i also make +1/2 queens) and overseer to scout. I am ~1100 random diamond player.
You can also make 7 roaches instead of 5 but then it's more a kind of all-in. On the other hand you can make 3-4 roaches and pressure your opponent and then just fall back as your exp finishes, put some spine crawlers and be happy because your enemy is behind ;p
Also i do not recommend this build to people who cannot forsee their enemy moves by some signs(what you see in their base, behavior, size of their army) because if you stand against some early stalker pressure followed by 4 warpgate push you're pretty much dead. You may also die to rush of 2 void rays though after you smooth this build in your gameplay you should be safe against all the strategies they can put against you. It's also necessary to connect your 2 bases with creep!
Haha, I love the first Terran replay against cold. I love how he flames you for not expo-ing. An interesting strategy, I'd been trying with small roach attacks early, especially against Terran, if it forces marauders then it just makes muta-ling a really nice transition.
This guide is excellent and the replays are good too; I will definitely try it. I especially like the ling speed - it makes a real difference. I notice you get a bit gas heavy after it, but maybe it doesn't matter. I'm a gold league player so I wouldn't really know.
I'm surprised at all the nay-sayers who say it can be countered: isn't that true of every strategy? The OP details the situations where it doesn't work, and at least two of the replays deal with those situations, and if the first rush fails it definitely isn't the end of the world.
There's kind of the issue with the fact that you're showing roaches so early imo, but I guess that's ok since it's not an all-in, but it's easily scouted, and I don't think I've lost a game where the opponent showed me an early roach warren, but it is very important that you point out that you do need lings if they get early marauders, but imo, banelings are probably more important at that point since if I scouted an early roach warren I would just go for a 3 rax push. in the replay it seems like you got lucky that he decided to continue pumping marines instead of marauders after scouting your roach warren. but definitely a viable strategy, and basically cheese proof.
do you have more games vs terran reaper + bunker block into biomech? Where you start out intent on going this build? i sadly dont have much time to watch all your replays but it sounds potent.
While it might be asking too much, could you release like a replay pack vs terran? or well i might be trying this build myself next week so its really no need to. i just think you wrote so little about how this build does against the wide variety of what terran can do.
I appreciate the work you put in to post this up Fistdantilus, looking at the replay its nice to see a comfortable and solid opening thats viable in most situations. Currently, the Terran Scare has put me at odds with having a solid opener where I don't have to worry if I'm opening correctly or know if its optimized. My openings lately have been sort of reactionary and been trying going with the flow, but this usually puts me behind. I feel that once I can progress into mid game at least level with my opponent I can take the game from there but its usually during the openings where I lose my games.
On August 20 2010 14:42 PJA wrote: I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in.
I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core.
Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it):
EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad.
On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it.
Thanks for posting your replay; I think it will add something to the discussion. REGARDING SCOUTING
You have roughly 10 seconds to kill or chase away the enemy worker with your 2 lings before you throw off your timings. Always stick the roach warren in the back of your base. If his worker is on creep, trust me when i say it will die in 2 seconds tops. There are some people who will run the worker around for awhile and I'm forced to put it down before it dies. However, that is rare. Most people will not sacrifice their worker for another 15 seconds of vision of your base.
Back to your replay:
You ran a probe in, and quickly ran out. Against me, you would NOT have seen the roach warren as you didn't send the probe back into his base after that. He started the warren right after pool whereas I don't. I will not start the roach warren until after the worker is dead or gone in most cases. Killing a worker with only 2 lings isn't difficult or time consuming, apparently contrary to popular belief.
Your opponent has excellent unit control, but I think he could really benefit from a better build order. It doesn't have to be mine, it's just that he quickly falls behind in worker count 30-16. He also used early energy on a creep tumor when his roaches were moving out, which means he couldn't reinforce with lings. There is zero chance you survive that game against my build. I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm just pointing out that he had 6 roaches against your 3 zealots 2 stalkers and another 10-14 lings would have ended the game right there. But, he laid a creep tumor.
I don't understand all the people in this thread who think zealots vs roaches is even close to favoring protoss? Have you played an actual game where your opponent micros his roaches, or just tested it in the unit tester? Yes zealots do very well if you can FF the roaches and beat on them, but since zealots are melee you'll get maybe 1 or 2 attacking at once, while all five roaches will fire at one zealot and pretty much kill it. Repeat until all zealots are dead.
It's so bad that whenever I see a protoss open with 2gate when I spawn as zerg it's almost a free win if you do 1base roaches followed by lings.
On August 20 2010 14:49 iEchoic wrote: The terran replays don't really show anything, the T players didn't know how to repair, one of them only made a couple marines, and the other did an incredibly dumb proxy rax rush. Repairing the wall + defending definitely works, I've done it before. The roaches can focus the SCVs but you can pull the SCVs back, run to repair the wall, etc. You lose a few SCVs at worst by time the roaches have to leave.
REGARDING REPLAYS
Obviously my opponents didn't respond super perfectly. What's the point of showing replays of a rush where I get crushed? What exactly does that prove? I win a lot of games with this build, and I win a lot of games where the rush doesn't work and I transition out of it. REGARDING REPAIRING
SCV's usually don't get there in time to repair. On many maps like BS/DQ/XC/M/SS, you actually don't see the roaches until they are at your door. In the time that it takes the SCV to travel over to the choke, the depot is gone. Even if they make it over, marines and hellions do minimal damage to roaches, so many SCV's will get sniped. 4+ easy. I'll trade 5 roaches for 4 SCV's plus mining time, every game.
On August 20 2010 16:45 Geo.Rion wrote: again, this is one of those builds which may work, but you're banking on your opponent not reacting properly. It certainly can win you some games, but probably you wont be able to beat someone with this opening twice, i mean if the opponent knows it's coming you either lose or will be set back.
Right! Just like banshee rushes, 2-gates, 4-gates, muta rushes, VR rushes, etc. This build isn't the end-all, be-all. It's just another tool in the box.
On August 20 2010 18:03 MrBitter wrote: So I tested this build out and I really like it. I've been doing a lot of one base muta vs. T recently. (actually detailing the build here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712)
Love the muta build, but it doesn't always work against mech plays.
After testing this with my practice partner, I think I can safely say this build works where my muta build does not. The best part is, they both look very similar in the early game, so even against someone who knows my playstyle, my opponent will have to make a gamble at some point.
Definitely check this out, guys.
(700 Diamond Zerg, btw)
Glad you like it, glad you tried it.
I'll take a whack at your muta build (watching replays now) as 1 base muta is something I really need to work on. Thanks for the link!
On August 20 2010 19:31 Nerchio wrote: I really HATE the creator of this thread. I used this build for a long time and it's working in all the match-ups ZvZ,ZvP,ZvT. Sometimes you have to decide whether to go expo after it or mass speedlings or whatever you choose but i find expand the best option. Btw. Protoss can't stop it going 2 gate if he makes more than 2 zealots. You can also make a roach warren about 65% of Queen production and still be able to finish at the same time(lately i did it that it ended at the same second). I prefer this build as Z because it prevents : hellions,reapers,2/3 proxy gate, ling/bane in ZvZ which are the most common builds on the ladder right now. I also tend to put down Lair just after my expansion so i can have hydras against banshee, void ray (if i scout it i also make +1/2 queens) and overseer to scout. I am ~1100 random diamond player.
You can also make 7 roaches instead of 5 but then it's more a kind of all-in. On the other hand you can make 3-4 roaches and pressure your opponent and then just fall back as your exp finishes, put some spine crawlers and be happy because your enemy is behind ;p
Also i do not recommend this build to people who cannot forsee their enemy moves by some signs(what you see in their base, behavior, size of their army) because if you stand against some early stalker pressure followed by 4 warpgate push you're pretty much dead. You may also die to rush of 2 void rays though after you smooth this build in your gameplay you should be safe against all the strategies they can put against you. It's also necessary to connect your 2 bases with creep!
Oh noes, I'm hated! I actually have been doing this build for several weeks and didn't release it, so I could rack up free wins as no terran or toss players expect Z to do anything early game. That's one huge reason why it keeps working.
I'm glad someone else here knows that this beats a heavy zealot 2 gate. -_-
Regarding transitioning out of it, you're right: there are definitely some tricks to know or you die immediately. Like if you see a stargate, you have to build 2 queens ASAP. Or if they are 4-gating, you make 5-6 drones then everything has to go to zerglings or you just turbo-lose.
I generally don't die to VR's, as I'm in their base wrecking shit when it pops out (which gives time to make more queens and link the bases with creep).
On August 20 2010 22:16 Madkipz wrote: do you have more games vs terran reaper + bunker block into biomech? Where you start out intent on going this build? i sadly dont have much time to watch all your replays but it sounds potent.
While it might be asking too much, could you release like a replay pack vs terran? or well i might be trying this build myself next week so its really no need to. i just think you wrote so little about how this build does against the wide variety of what terran can do.
I didn't post any replays of reaper/bunker contain because 5RR completely and utterly destroys it. Snipe the SCV repairing the bunker and then just straight-up kill your opponent. He won't have marauders by this time, I guarantee it. It's not even interesting to watch.
Tech labs take time to build. Even if he does miraculously have a marauder in the bunker because of a proxy rax, it's only going to be 1-2 vs your 5 roaches and lings which is completely one-sided.
Fistdantilus, it seems a very good build. And for those that are so eager to turn down builds people think, experiment, perfect, i say this:
In BW it was common for Protoss to go straight for a Dragoon against a walling in Terran and put early pressure. Did the Dragoons destroy the wall everytime? Not at all. In fact, Terran would often get a tank and start pressuring back with some marines. The thing is: you put pressure. If the opponent worries you can put pressure he will think before trying to rush you with reapers or he'll think before fast expanding.
If you don't harm your economy too much with an early pressure - like it seems you don't with this build - it is useful. The worse thing it can happen is to not break the wall and not do the damage you wanted, but you'll always get them worried.
I have had great success with this build and I have been using it for a long time. If the timing is right you can do TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE DAMAGE. If it isn't as effective as you want it to be you can easily knock down some rocks and take a gold expansion with the roaches.
I normally hate the people who come in and criticize a top diamond player's replays, but I must say... what was with that game against Whiplash (5RR Recovery)? He scouted your spire, so built cannons in his main to defend, but then pushed out with zealot+colossus and ZERO stalkers. But then you flew right over his army and to his main base for some reason, when you could have easily killed his army for a GG right there. Just pretty terrible decisions from both players at that point, no offense.
But thanks a lot for this post, I'm definitely going to try this out. I think that replay shows that it's still possible to transition out of this build even if the rush fails, although you may be at a disadvantage.
I believe I saved that replay as "meh vs toss". It certainly wasn't my best game, but looking at the worker count you can see that I'm almost always ahead even though the rush failed. To be honest, I shouldn't have attacked in the first place.
Just watched game one, going to watch all the games before adding any weight to the criticism, but it looks a little all in with how many workers you were below blue in game one. If he had somehow defended it, his economy would be much better than yours. Again, I will watch all the games before adding weight to this observation.
On August 20 2010 22:16 Madkipz wrote: do you have more games vs terran reaper + bunker block into biomech? Where you start out intent on going this build? i sadly dont have much time to watch all your replays but it sounds potent.
While it might be asking too much, could you release like a replay pack vs terran? or well i might be trying this build myself next week so its really no need to. i just think you wrote so little about how this build does against the wide variety of what terran can do.
I didn't post any replays of reaper/bunker contain because 5RR completely and utterly destroys it. Snipe the SCV repairing the bunker and then just straight-up kill your opponent. He won't have marauders by this time, I guarantee it. It's not even interesting to watch.
Tech labs take time to build. Even if he does miraculously have a marauder in the bunker because of a proxy rax, it's only going to be 1-2 vs your 5 roaches and lings which is completely one-sided.
wont they just keep threatening to runby while they get marauders? im a little on edge, i saw the two terran replays and i have to admit it looks REALLY REALLY strong but mass reapers is like the terran version of speedling.
you sorta just cant leave your base unguarded? am i missing a vital point of the build? delayed expo and everything about it looks good, just the followtrough. I mean yea you won tbh id rather see games where you lost doing this build because your not mentioning a whole lot about its not so obvious WEAK points.
I have been using a similar build with great success but this is definitely much more refined and efficient than what I have been doing, so I really appreciate it. I don't understand the criticism either It seems like some people in this thread are expecting someone to post a build that will just win no matter what if executed properly. Even I would be able to beat pro players if I knew exactly what build they were doing and they stuck to it no matter what.
I'll try this tonight, thanks I've been tinkering around with a BO to try and get early pressure that's not zerglings. While I don't think this will get in before a terran wall closes it will still help (unless you do 2 drone harass on the building SCVs)
wont they just keep threatening to runby while they get marauders? im a little on edge, i saw the two terran replays and i have to admit it looks REALLY REALLY strong but mass reapers is like the terran version of speedling.
you sorta just cant leave your base unguarded? am i missing a vital point of the build? delayed expo and everything about it looks good, just the followtrough. I mean yea you won tbh id rather see games where you lost doing this build because your not mentioning a whole lot about its not so obvious WEAK points.
Tech lab: 25 gas Nitro: 50 gas Reaper: 50 gas
Their first reaper is going to cost 125 gas, and you'll have 5 roaches for that same gas. I agree that mass reapers are difficult to handle, but they'll have 2-3 reapers by the time your roaches hit their base. If they don't have marauders at their base, they die. Meanwhile you just throw out 2 roaches and speedlings to defend. EZ game.
Reapers also take a long time to build, meaning almost zero marines. 5RR vs reaper openings is so one-sided.
Regarding posting losses: I looked around and I don't have any loss replays related to the opening. If you are held off, you just spam a round of drones. Pumping out 6+ drones quickly is pretty easy for this build to do. So I can't really say that I lose a long game due to this build. I can say that I've lost with this build because I got overconfident and tried to push through where it was obvious I couldn't, leading to heavy losses on my end and dying to an immediate counterattack.
sweet sweet stuff. Having some way to have some early pressure against your opponent is quite awesome, and it should make terrans rethink their openers if this becomes popular, terran will no longer be able to do anything at all and still be completely safe, it should make it a lot more dynamic.
Its similar to a protoss going double gateway against zerg. You do it because some early pressure will limit your opponent's options, because if your opponent is too greedy, you have a chance to outright win, and because if you cant put much pressure, then you dont lose much. Same thing opening with a reaper against toss as terran. You dont do it because you expect it to win you the game. You do it to limit his options, because it doesnt cost you much, and it has the potential to win the game depending on what your opponent did.
On August 21 2010 01:22 morimacil wrote: sweet sweet stuff. Having some way to have some early pressure against your opponent is quite awesome, and it should make terrans rethink their openers if this becomes popular, terran will no longer be able to do anything at all and still be completely safe, it should make it a lot more dynamic.
Its similar to a protoss going double gateway against zerg. You do it because some early pressure will limit your opponent's options, because if your opponent is too greedy, you have a chance to outright win, and because if you cant put much pressure, then you dont lose much. Same thing opening with a reaper against toss as terran. You dont do it because you expect it to win you the game. You do it to limit his options, because it doesnt cost you much, and it has the potential to win the game depending on what your opponent did.
Thank you, I obviously couldn't say it better myself even through 5 pages. =)
Hey man, first of all thanks for sharing this strategy. I read it and thought it should be a nice new thing to try. However, i have to agree to what some ppl wrote here: Noone in your replays is even decent. One Terran player doesnt scout your base/expansion at all, he doesnt even know in which position you are, and the other guy does a stupid allin which is hard countered by your build. I tried the 5RR against a friend of mine who i usually beat like 30-0 (in BW, and im even further ahead in SC2, except for that he plays Terrans) and the first thing he did after i killed his scout and i didnt have my hatch down at the natural, was just use his next scan to see the roach warren. Even though hes really quite new to SC2 he was putting down the techlab and building marauders with concusive shell, which was gg right there. The one guy from your replay even sees the roachwarren somewhat later, he also makes a techlab but keeps building marines(???). So imho, vs Terran this build is not viable at all, even my Platinum Noob friend could beat it in his first encounter ever, especially since ZvT there is always the danger of a Banelingbust, so a scan is 100% necessary and i have seen it coming alot when i did the Banelingbust. Vs Toss it might be ok, but i really think that someone good should be able to defend this easily with gateways units, sentries can easily block the ramp until stalkers are out, or make roaches fight melee vs zealots. At least they can not scout it as quick though.
On August 20 2010 23:51 schiznak wrote: I saw fantaprime (rumored to be julyzerg do this in a zvt)
Yea I first saw this by Dimaga on Steppes in some tournament (I think KotB). However, Dimaga did it differently, I think he got Zling speed first, and then saved up 125 gas, then pulled drones off gas, and this was right as roach warren was finishing. He then went to push out, but I recall it didn't work, but I felt like it was very clever when I saw it. I tried this build on ladder(the one dimaga did, don't know how similar it is to OPs), and it worked really well vs the toss I played, only ran int 1 T and it didn't work. I think this build could be very solid, and I think the game vs whiplash shows that you can transition out of it reasonably well.
you could do a 14 gas and 21 warren, and i think you are able to get speed with ur first 100gas and afford the 5 roaches as soon as the warren is finished
I really like this idea. For people who dont seem to read the entire OP or watch the replays i will explain something to you. This is NOT a win every time build. I am sure there are tons of builds that will beat this. This IS however a very storng opening against Zealots and marines and good at an early non-baneling way to get through a wall of. I have done very similar things but have not gotten it refined as much as this build is. I appreciate how much work was done in this thread by Fistdantilus by helping poeple who dont understand the build.
Great ideas here Fistdantilus. Have you tried tweaking it in YABOT to get roaches out faster? I'll try it tonight against a practice partner. Thanks for sharing.
On August 20 2010 14:42 PJA wrote: I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in.
I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core.
Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it):
EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad.
On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it.
Thanks for posting your replay; I think it will add something to the discussion. REGARDING SCOUTING
You have roughly 10 seconds to kill or chase away the enemy worker with your 2 lings before you throw off your timings. Always stick the roach warren in the back of your base. If his worker is on creep, trust me when i say it will die in 2 seconds tops. There are some people who will run the worker around for awhile and I'm forced to put it down before it dies. However, that is rare. Most people will not sacrifice their worker for another 15 seconds of vision of your base.
Back to your replay:
You ran a probe in, and quickly ran out. Against me, you would NOT have seen the roach warren as you didn't send the probe back into his base after that. He started the warren right after pool whereas I don't. I will not start the roach warren until after the worker is dead or gone in most cases. Killing a worker with only 2 lings isn't difficult or time consuming, apparently contrary to popular belief.
Your opponent has excellent unit control, but I think he could really benefit from a better build order. It doesn't have to be mine, it's just that he quickly falls behind in worker count 30-16. He also used early energy on a creep tumor when his roaches were moving out, which means he couldn't reinforce with lings. There is zero chance you survive that game against my build. I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm just pointing out that he had 6 roaches against your 3 zealots 2 stalkers and another 10-14 lings would have ended the game right there. But, he laid a creep tumor.
Yeah, his larva injects were pretty delayed, which is a result of him trying to micro too hard probably. I think you overestimate how well 2 lings will stop my scout, though. This game I ran out immediately because I saw roach warren. If I don't see the roach warren but I see you start some eggs right when pool finishes I'm gonna get my probe out and send him back in from the sides 10-15 seconds later. Sometimes I see the warren then, in which case I expand this early, sometimes I don't, in which case I'll have to delay the expo and get a 3rd gateway first.
Anyway, if anyone wants to play this build against 2 gate I'd rather do that than theorycraft. Time//175 on battle.net. If I need to adjust my build to deal with this I'd rather know now than before I lose in some tournament
okay this build is amazing. I've used it for every toss and terran i've played for about 10 games now, most of them were insta win after the lings came with the speed. I'm a mid level diamond 550ish.
you're worried about the opponent scouting?? Most players have scouted too early, and way before the roach warren goes down... you'll have 2 lings by the time the scout has come and you can seriously kill it or run it out.
it works exactly like he has said. Leaves you in a pretty good economic shape so if it does fail you can hop right back up.
this was even successful when terran made marauders... just make sure you bust the wall... he'll have 2 coming out most likely, but all i experienced was marines and hellions. then all your ling reinforcements come in and tear shiet up!
thank you sooooooo much for this build, i've been struggling early game, and i love to put pressure early game.... but before this was very very hard. thank you again.
I haven't gotten past the 10 minute mark yet, i'm still waiting to see what happens if i do... actually can't wait.
I like this build and will definately give it a shot. Can you give us any further insights on which maps this build works particularly good in or which maps this build is unusable?
i'm SO EXCITED to try this build when I get back from work! i've been lamenting the fact that there are no real reliable ways to put pressure on T/P in the early game, and at my level (low 400 diamond noob) i'm sure this will be successful. i'll be posting replays of my attempts as soon as i can :D
Nice to see someone being aggressive as a zerg player in the early game and thanks for making this post. Don't listen to the haters who wouldn't even watch the replays you provided. I recently prefer a gas before pool - second queen into hatch - style against terran but your build i will remember. It's a nice tool to have in your box as zerg i think.
edit: ohh and LOL @ the terran complaining after he tried to proxy 3 rax against you on metalopolis
I like this a lot. It's also very nice to finally have a decent opening that will let me put some pressure on my opponent. Great post Fisty (If you get this reference, you are a damn winner forever), keep up the great work! :D
I am interested to see some more replays, this build is really interesting and people seem to be getting some good results with it. Cannot wait till more replays are posted.
this was fairly similar to my 12 pool roach, build which i posted up before. It wasnt very refined or correct yet, but you have a build thats similar and seems effective.
when i was testing my old build(12 pool roach) i found that it would absolutely destroy terran 1/1/1 builds since they simply couldnt have enough strong counters to roaches out in time. Though the great thing about roaches is there fantastic ability to simply hold the line, especially with a small spattering of ranged support. My build was based more on using the roaches to get an early expansion up quite safely while under pressure from barracks pushes, hellions, zealot stalker combos and all manner of zergling, baneling or roach combinations another zerg player is using.
Lol... I used this to give me a small boost from rank 6 plat to rank 40 diamond. Now the protoss tend to get 2 fast stalkers + wall off, making this build much worse. Still, it can put on some pressure; a rare thing for most zerg builds.
I'm definetly going to try this, Roach openings have been my dream since the huge nerf bat hit them plus I'm sick of the usual 14-gas 14-pool stuff.
You seem to have a reasonable number of losses, can you say what caused most of them if they're related to the build? Was it poor transition out of this opening, a certain counter attack, a specific opening, cheese, whatever?
Tried the build a couple of games, and I've had a lot of success as a low-level diamond. I can also say that this opening has been fantastic in 2v2 - me and a fellow zerg both do it together, and it has crushed everyone we've come against. 10 roaches that early in the game is a total wrecking ball, and can deal damage where ling openings would not.
IMO, this is just a standard build against a 2 gate opening. You need roaches to defend the early zealot pressure but then the protoss pretty much got what he wanted so I don't see how this helps. Against terrans, if they just wall off with buildings other than supply depots it pretty much shuts this down.
Dunno why but it seems like us players are worse than europeans. 800 diamond ? come on T_T I guess it's meaningless once again (blizzard and their shitty casual ladders...). Tried it like 3 times, worked on 2 of them but that was pure luck + my experience on bw helped to outmacro them. Will have to try it again tomorrow cauz i've some doubts about its succesfulness. Especially compared to a classic speedling build (assuming we don't put pressure obv).
Edit : forgot to mention that 2 times my opponent saw my roach warren successfully because he abused the offcreep.
I found this thread last night at 3am and even though I had to go to bed, I was hooked. I even installed SC2 on my laptop just to watch the replays in bed. Got a chance to try it out tonight in mid diamond and it served me well 4-0. In 2 of the games it was a straight victory.
Stories of both games where my intial attack didn't quite win me the game but I was able to adapt and still win: + Show Spoiler +
In one of the other games, a terran opened reapers and blocked his ramp with rax + tech lab and factory. I used the roaches on the tech lab but he repaired so I sniped the 2 scvs. He had 1 maurauder and 1 hellion + 1 reaper trying to hold the fort. He brought more scvs which I got as well. Off that initial attempt, I didn't break in but I killed ~5 scvs, a marauder and a hellion. I had my speedlings ready but with no opening I was not sure how to proceed off my "failed" opener. I dropped a baneling nest, popped the tech lab and then rallied the lings in for the victory.
The other close game was vs a P who went 1 gate with 2 zealots, 1 stalker and early warpgate. He warped in 2 more zealots while my roaches did work which died easily. As my lings run in to his mineral line to secure the game, out of nowhere a void ray strolls in and ends my push. I killed all his units and most of his probes so I rallied more lings for the win but they were only able to kill a few more probes before a zealot and 2 void rays cleaned up. From that point, my expo was shut down by the void rays so I had to build queens, drop crawlers and tech to hydras. Once I had a few, I nydused in and that's all she wrote.
Thanks a lot OP. I am very impressed with this build and it has made playing Z a lot more fun as it's an alternative build to apply early pressure beyond just doing a baneling bust. I would love to try it against zergs but I'm terrified that speedlings will catch my roaches out in the open or they will just wait for me to leave my base to rape my mineral line.
On August 21 2010 09:16 Fumble wrote: I like this build and will definately give it a shot. Can you give us any further insights on which maps this build works particularly good in or which maps this build is unusable?
Completely unusable on DO as roaches are just too slow. However, you can turn it into a baneling bust. Simply make a baneling nest instead of roach warren and go for it.
The 5RR is great wherever there's destructible rocks: BS, SS, KR. On KR, you do have to make a few more roaches to get through both layers of rock in a timely manner.
Cross positions on M/KR aren't great, but I have done it anyway and won. I love the 5RR on LT as your opponent often tries to fast expand or fast tech to air.
Lots of ppls do this :D Not to take your thunder, they don't do it like you. This is an excellent thread and nice format. This is response only to TvZ, I didn't watch any ZvP reps. I usually open 8 rax turbo raper, forcing you to make some zerglings, or else you die your drones; also this helps me scout zerg later too for muta or hydra tech. Queen doesn't do shit against someone decent, especially when I get nitro boost on my first reaper. Even if you manage to hold me off without zerglings + no speed, and leave a roach behind for reaper harass, I have had more than enough time to make my 1-2 mara to hold my wall.
Or I could just do what you do, and rush maras as soon as I see a roach warren. Sorry, but I will have the correct amount of men to kill you every time.
700+ diamond.
edit: If Terran went 12 reaper, he would lose more than likely.
On August 21 2010 11:42 phfantunes wrote: I'm definetly going to try this, Roach openings have been my dream since the huge nerf bat hit them plus I'm sick of the usual 14-gas 14-pool stuff.
You seem to have a reasonable number of losses, can you say what caused most of them if they're related to the build? Was it poor transition out of this opening, a certain counter attack, a specific opening, cheese, whatever?
3 reasons why my win percentage sucks:
1) Up until last week, one third of all my games ended in a disconnect. Got my interwebs fixed last week (apparently bad wiring was the cause), and now I haven't had a disconnect since.
2) I had the beta for 1 day. So I was trying things like mass roach vs bio-ball, I never tech'ed to T3 in my first 150 games (not kidding!), etc. Not to mention that I didn't know any of the hotkeys, injection techniques, etc. A lot of the better people with the nice winrates got their stupid losses out of the way a long time ago in beta.
On August 21 2010 13:22 Mindspider wrote: Tried the build a couple of games, and I've had a lot of success as a low-level diamond. I can also say that this opening has been fantastic in 2v2 - me and a fellow zerg both do it together, and it has crushed everyone we've come against. 10 roaches that early in the game is a total wrecking ball, and can deal damage where ling openings would not.
NICE! It's good to see 2v2 applications instead of double 6-pool all the time for Z.
On August 21 2010 15:35 Vexx wrote: I found this thread last night at 3am and even though I had to go to bed, I was hooked. I even installed SC2 on my laptop just to watch the replays in bed. Got a chance to try it out tonight in mid diamond and it served me well 4-0. In 2 of the games it was a straight victory.
Thanks a lot OP. I am very impressed with this build and it has made playing Z a lot more fun as it's an alternative build to apply early pressure beyond just doing a baneling bust. I would love to try it against zergs but I'm terrified that speedlings will catch my roaches out in the open or they will just wait for me to leave my base to rape my mineral line.
I'm glad you tried it, glad you like it!
It is nice having an opening that can just win sometimes.
I actually have never tried it vs Z, and I'm not confident it would work as written. I think you'd just have to keep pumping roaches as he'll most likely have banelings. Plus, there's the very real problem you mention of the ling run-by.
I tried it last night - i won 6 of 7 games in under 8 minutes. I admit, it was in custom and the opponents were not that good. The only time i lost was against a top diamond protoss, and again i could have won, but i spent too much time killing his front gateway, so he managed to make a really well placed cannon in his main. I will definitely try it in ladder.
On August 22 2010 00:06 Chunkybuddha wrote: Lots of ppls do this :D Not to take your thunder, they don't do it like you. This is an excellent thread and nice format. This is response only to TvZ, I didn't watch any ZvP reps. I usually open 8 rax turbo raper, forcing you to make some zerglings, or else you die your drones; also this helps me scout zerg later too for muta or hydra tech. Queen doesn't do shit against someone decent, especially when I get nitro boost on my first reaper. Even if you manage to hold me off without zerglings + no speed, and leave a roach behind for reaper harass, I have had more than enough time to make my 1-2 mara to hold my wall.
Or I could just do what you do, and rush maras as soon as I see a roach warren. Sorry, but I will have the correct amount of men to kill you every time.
700+ diamond.
edit: If Terran went 12 reaper, he would lose more than likely.
I'm not claiming to be the first to think of this. I'm not claiming this is the fastest build. I'm not claiming this is the best build.
I am saying that until the 5RR I haven't seen consistent and robust build orders: it was either all-in or nothing. This build is a happy balance.
Regarding 8-rax-reaper: I believe you when you say you'll have marauders out by the time the rush gets there. With the reapers you'll definitely see the roach warren. However, you really won't deal significant damage to my economy with 2 roaches and a queen hanging around. In fact, by going 8RR you're doing the economic damage to yourself so I don't even need to get in there. You're going to be behind in workers, and I'll have an expansion and be happily on the way to lair.
On August 21 2010 22:52 shrinkmaster wrote: Would love to see additional replays of this style against mid-diamond and higher players. Especially if they survive the first push.
I edited the OP with 4 replays from yesterday where the game goes long. =D Not the highest quality of replays, but it gives a good idea how the game goes if the rush succeeds a little or just fails outright.
Here are 2 of my replays. We are both mid Diamond players, nothing extraordinary. My friend usually plays Terran, and he is looking to get his PvZ game up.
First replays goes by the standard build, second a little differently. I scout zealot pressure and have to delay my roaches temporarily.
I watched all the replays and tried this build in 9 games, losing 2, both against 2 gate. I'm a gold league player so I guess my roach micro sucks, but I have to say neither game was even close - the protoss just had many many zealots. Perhaps I should give up on the first assault when I see the 2 gate.
Other than that I really like it. I have to say it's quite nice to be the one piling on the early pressure.
On August 22 2010 02:29 barrykp wrote: I watched all the replays and tried this build in 9 games, losing 2, both against 2 gate. I'm a gold league player so I guess my roach micro sucks, but I have to say neither game was even close - the protoss just had many many zealots. Perhaps I should give up on the first assault when I see the 2 gate.
Other than that I really like it. I have to say it's quite nice to be the one piling on the early pressure.
I'm confused as to why you would have trouble against zealots with this build.
On August 22 2010 01:40 Magnebula wrote: Here are 2 of my replays. We are both mid Diamond players, nothing extraordinary. My friend usually plays Terran, and he is looking to get his PvZ game up.
First replays goes by the standard build, second a little differently. I scout zealot pressure and have to delay my roaches temporarily.
Any advice/comments welcome
Thanks for the replays!
Game 1: Your macro is good, but you tech to lair way too early. Need to work on your unit control, especially your zergling surrounds. Right-click past your target, then when the target is engulfed you hit stop or attack-move. The early spine crawler simply isn't necessary.
Game 2: Your roach warren completes like 1 second after you start making a ton of zerglings. >< If you stuck to the original plan this game is over immediately as he's so invested in zealots. Same problem in G2 as in G1: you tech to lair and get your second gas way too soon. Then when you have him on the ropes, you stop the pressure for some reason. Didn't watch after minute 16, but there weren't enough drones made either especially considering you killed so many in your attack.
5RR AGAINST A 2-GATE
The 2-gate zealots will get to your base just before the roaches are done (depending on the map and positions), but after your roaches are complete it's a one-sided ass kicking. You have to stall for about 10 seconds. Just run away if nothing else. The zealots can't catch your queen or drones, and they can't take down an important building in that time either.
Do you have any more T reps? I tried this for 2 games, the protoss one went really well against 1 gate cyber opening. The other was against T, and I didn't pull it off right but he opened with 2 raxes and I didnt really do much on the attack. Then my transition was really bad and I didnt build enough army for his bio tank push. I'm wonder if I failed or the build works more against P. Thanks a lot for posting it, I need these kind of aggressive openings to improve my game I think.
On August 22 2010 02:46 barrykp wrote: did I not mention I suck? each time when I pushed with 5 roaches + 2 lings they got annihilated by a lot of zealots
To kill Zealots with roaches.
Find your H key. Make sure that it's still bound to your "hold" hot key binding.
run away from the zealots with your roaches, then hit H, fire once, then run away again. Let's say the fire cooldown is 1.5 seconds ( I have no idea) run for 1.49 seconds, hit H, then KEEP RUNNING. You will kill infinite zealots with 5 roaches with this micro. Learn it, love it, live it.
-edit
If he chooses to ignore your roaches, dance back and forth, shoot back away, move forward shoot, back away, move forwards etc etc. Soon as he gives chase.. go back to using the H key as your "fire key" while running away.
Looks like a great build I want to try out. I support you in the face of people claiming it would only work on crappy opponents, they clearly can't read that you are facing diamond players with this. However, I am a relative SC newb, and am just working my way into silver. at this level, there are a lot of wall ins that involve lots of cannons or bunkers. Is the correct response to that using this build to just back off, power drones, and try to outmacro them? Or do I try to break thru before they can tech up and come at me with rays or banshees?
On August 22 2010 04:26 mrgoldenbrown wrote: Looks like a great build I want to try out. I support you in the face of people claiming it would only work on crappy opponents, they clearly can't read that you are facing diamond players with this. However, I am a relative SC newb, and am just working my way into silver. at this level, there are a lot of wall ins that involve lots of cannons or bunkers. Is the correct response to that using this build to just back off, power drones, and try to outmacro them? Or do I try to break thru before they can tech up and come at me with rays or banshees?
If your early zerglings spot 1-base cannons/bunkers, just power-drone. It's when your opponent tries to fast expand with cannons/bunkers where you'll want to rush. By rushing into their cannons, you actually make their strategy correct because their cannons are getting use. But by making more workers and expanding, their static defense actually hurts them because they can't punish you.
If your early zerglings spot 1-base cannons/bunkers, just power-drone.
Man, I wish I knew that before I finished my assesment. I still won, but yeah, using 5RR against bunkers did not work. Was able to get through, but my zerglings came in too late.
But the thing w/ this build was its definitely not an all in. I was still able to expand and amass a few more units, Won via backdoor by getting some roaches on the rocks and finishing off w/ mass muta.
On August 22 2010 01:40 Magnebula wrote: Here are 2 of my replays. We are both mid Diamond players, nothing extraordinary. My friend usually plays Terran, and he is looking to get his PvZ game up.
First replays goes by the standard build, second a little differently. I scout zealot pressure and have to delay my roaches temporarily.
Any advice/comments welcome
Thanks for the replays!
Game 1: Your macro is good, but you tech to lair way too early. Need to work on your unit control, especially your zergling surrounds. Right-click past your target, then when the target is engulfed you hit stop or attack-move. The early spine crawler simply isn't necessary.
Game 2: Your roach warren completes like 1 second after you start making a ton of zerglings. >< If you stuck to the original plan this game is over immediately as he's so invested in zealots. Same problem in G2 as in G1: you tech to lair and get your second gas way too soon. Then when you have him on the ropes, you stop the pressure for some reason. Didn't watch after minute 16, but there weren't enough drones made either especially considering you killed so many in your attack.
5RR AGAINST A 2-GATE
The 2-gate zealots will get to your base just before the roaches are done (depending on the map and positions), but after your roaches are complete it's a one-sided ass kicking. You have to stall for about 10 seconds. Just run away if nothing else. The zealots can't catch your queen or drones, and they can't take down an important building in that time either.
My main problem is, and as dumb as it may sound (since its the whole point of this build...), is remembering to drop the roach warren on time, especially if I'm tied up making sure their scout is gone/dead. i built that spine in game 1 because i thought he was going to try to counter (he likes to play that way). As for game 2, He had quite a few stalkers and I figured at that point, with the cannons, I wouldnt be able to break through again so I teched. I shouldn't have left that one pylon up, but I did and it kept the game going. I did realize I didn't have enough drones and just pumped out more. Mass mutas and harass followed, leading to a win.
I never know when its a good time to tech to lair, or when to grab my 2nd gas.
I dont know if Idra followed the exact BO but the unit composition early roach rush is definately there.
As a T this is the new strats that are giving me hell
No, the BO wasn't even close to this. IdrA does later roaches only because he sees that Tarson really doesn't want to transition out of reapers. Roaches are only good en masse when Terran strays into really imbalanced compositions like pure hellions or pure reapers.
Right now it looks like mass reapers are in fashion at the top.
What do I do if I am using this build and he 4 gates into mass stalkers + a few zealots? Do I just have to macro perfectly and put up a few spine crawlers?
Well after maybe 20 games trying this I got promoted to platinum! I guess I should be pleased, although the build perhaps deserves more credit than I do. Anyway kudos for coming up with it
Awesome post, great build. I, on occasion use a very similar build, which is DiMaGa's all-in roach build. I'll probably start using this instead because the execution is very very similar, but with more econ.
Having good success vs. Terran with this build, just not too confident of its effectiveness vs Protoss. I prefer a slightly faster Roach Warren (as soon as pool pops) vs. 2-gate, and a more macro-oriented style vs. everything else. Still, thanks for posting this, sure does feel good to be aggressive vs. Terran early game.
Against toss this is actually very nice. The tendency I am seeing is when they see those first 5 roaches (because you push or they 2 gate you) they commit to robo tech. Then it is just a matter of muta harassing to death.
EDIT: Small note on proxy timing. Against 2 gate proxy, the first 2 zealots (roughly) will be up to you to deal with with only your queen, 4 lings and drones. Shouldn't be a problem as you will already have roaches on the way.
On August 20 2010 13:41 hadoken5 wrote: Thank you for this. Don't understand the critisicm. You even posted an example on how you easily transitioned from the attack. And you had all yourr bases saturated quickly. You didn't lose as a result of your strategy.
ITs because people are retarded and the first thing they do when they hear a new strat on the strat forum is dream up the worst possible situation for the build and use that as justification for why it sucks and why the OP should burn in hell.
@ OP Nice writeup, pretty indepth. I've tried this 5 games now and I'm 4-1. Only in 2 of those games did I win outright though. Still, I'm suprised at how well this build can transition. Haven't tried it vs protoss tho, so we'll see how that goes another time.
Btw, I'm impressed at how much detail you've given to this build. Annoyed at the nooby idiots who haven't hit diamond yet giving retarded critiques. Can we make it mandatory to post your division / points or something before you say anything in the strat forum? I know low level players can sometimes contribute good ideas but this is just getting ridiculous
Huge thanks to the OP for this guide. Tried it a few times tonight in my little Gold league paddling-pool: it didn't work out every time but to be perfectly frank I wouldn't have cared if it didn't work at all; it's worth it just to feel like there's something I can do while I'm waiting for my opponent to turn up at my base.
And when I say 'it didn't work out every time' I should probably elaborate:
The first time, the roach warren popped, the larvae spurted into the air - and I hadn't made an extractor. Thinking quickly I feigned death until the game ended.
The second time, the roach warren popped, the larvae spurted into the air - and I hadn't made an Overlord. I explained to the two roaches who did spawn that times were tough for everyone and in the current economic climate they were actually very lucky to have jobs at all. I think they took it pretty well.
The third time, the roach warren popped and larvae spurted into the air with an Overlord already gargling triumphantly overhead. I hammered the keyboard, rallied to my opponent's ramp, and watched the five pulsing eggs with baited breath. I even remembered that I ought to be upgrading Zergling speed ASAP - and was temporarily delighted to notice that I already had easily enough gas to begin the research. "Hell of a build, this," I was thinking just as ten zerglings spawned.
Eventually the short bus to adventure dropped me off and, pausing only to swill the taste of windowpane from my tongue, I started putting the actual build into practice.
Jesus fuck.
It was almost like playing a different RTS - and certainly a different race. My first opponent's reapers seemed quite taken aback to find Zerg in their own base with them. I heard one of them say "I dunno, Dave; mebbe they're a new kind of drone." If Dave said anything in reply, it was lost in the sound of his rocket-pack exploding.
My second opponent seemed equally surprised. In fact, his probes were so curious about the new arrivals they followed them around and around their base like lost, acid-drenched puppies.
Against a Zerg the outcome was less dramatic, but still potent. I cut a drone to drop an early spine crawler, which worked out really well. His early zergling harass couldn't achieve much, and my roaches deterred him from going banelings. He expended a good five or six hundred minerals focusing down my roach warren (I started a new one before the first one went down and lost maybe a second and a half of production) and then backed off. I teched to spire, made a couple of mutalisks, and prodded him just enough to ensure he went for hydras. Off creep, roaches with speed upgrade proved a very cost-effective defence, while my carefully conserved and ever-growing mutalisk ball poached drones, queens and tech buildings.
In all seriousness, though, this is such a breath of fresh air. Aggression into expansion, that early? Hell yes. Just being able to distract my opponent from his otherwise peacefully uninterrupted macro routine is worth the price of admission.
Umpteen you made reading this whole thread more than worth it.
Fistdantilus, can you clarify how this build handles stargate rush? I have a build that gets a void ray almost as fast as possible, followed by constant phoenix. Meanwhile you get stalkers after your first zealot, and zealots if you are out of gas or as your gates come up. I've faced all degrees of roach rush with this build, and it almost always goes my way. If my micro is bad, the worst case is that we both lose our bases and I have the strategic trump for a long time. Generally though I can hold it off with low or no losses, and then punish them in multiple ways: I can kill the roaches as i find them with a void ray, I can kill the overlords with phoenix, I can kill queens, I can kill some drones, I can kill hatcheries or tech structures. I continue to use the build because it has shown me that you usually only take as much damage as they do (even if its "eventually" when you can get to their base with a ray), so break even is the risk. Anyway, thoughts, if you care?
Haha, yes, most of my Terran opponents seem to be going "What the fuck is going on?" when my Roaches hit them as they try to act like everything's going as planned. Granted, there are a lot of dumb Terran players in Diamond right now, but hopefully builds like these will help weed them out.
Also, amusing reply Umpteen, I enjoyed reading that a lot!
720 diamond zerg, been doing similar build against T's with good results. i prefer to wait for a second batch of roaches and push w/ about 11, doesnt take much more time but much harder for T to hold off. also, since the attack lasts much longer I have more time to pump drones/get lair tech/expand so it makes up for the larve and resources i spend up front.
against Toss, you definitely neet to add in lings. any competent toss will have stalkers, but if you bring about 8 lings (speed upgrade not a must) you can flank the stalkers w/ good micro and let roaches melt them.
On August 22 2010 11:25 EatThePath wrote: Umpteen you made reading this whole thread more than worth it.
Fistdantilus, can you clarify how this build handles stargate rush? I have a build that gets a void ray almost as fast as possible, followed by constant phoenix. Meanwhile you get stalkers after your first zealot, and zealots if you are out of gas or as your gates come up. I've faced all degrees of roach rush with this build, and it almost always goes my way. If my micro is bad, the worst case is that we both lose our bases and I have the strategic trump for a long time. Generally though I can hold it off with low or no losses, and then punish them in multiple ways: I can kill the roaches as i find them with a void ray, I can kill the overlords with phoenix, I can kill queens, I can kill some drones, I can kill hatcheries or tech structures. I continue to use the build because it has shown me that you usually only take as much damage as they do (even if its "eventually" when you can get to their base with a ray), so break even is the risk. Anyway, thoughts, if you care?
Here's a game I played like an hour ago. =D
Prologue: I had just played this person a few games prior where I beat him with the 5RR when he tried to FE on Blistering Sands. Sidenote: my winrate vs P/T players that try to fast expand against me is like 90%. So there's a huge chance he knows it's coming, but I see him teching hard and I just think "OK, let's do this".
It's pretty much the fastest VR I've ever seen, and my thinking is: "I'll get inside, and spam zerglings to him while my queens build and I'll drop an evo and spores". However, I screw up the micro pretty badly when his VR gets to my base and I forget to build spore crawlers. ><
I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've lost to VRs while doing the 5RR, but I still had a lot of chances to hold. The replay does show how close it can be, though.
To answer your question more directly: It's almost guaranteed I wreck the protoss base if they tech this hard, while I have good chances to hold off the VRs.
i played 7 games in a row on ladder and custom 1v1's against 2 diamond, 3 plat, and a couple newbs.
i won all 7. some highlights:
one terran player (think he was in gold) had a very nice scan of 6 roaches popping. he had 2 marauders waiting when i got there. i still won with ling reinforcements.
against a diamond toss 2 gate the timing was amusing. my roaches reached the ramp of my base right when i saw zealots pass the xel naga watchtower. he had 7ish zealots, i kited on creep and won easily.
the most interesting game was probably against my friend who watched me do this. he wanted to play a 1v1. he went protoss and fast void rays. my roaches got to his base when a void ray was about half done. i was able to kill enough probes that i was clearly in the lead.
as soon as i saw him going VR i spore colony'd up my base and teched asap to mutas, which won me the game.
i think the key to this build is the economical use of larva.
a ling/bling bust is so larva heavy it is all in.
5 or 6 larva used to make roaches is just a small setback in drone production.
I cannot remember this exactly, but it is against a 300 point zerg. Beats his ling/bane and proceeds to kick ass.
These replays should be proof enough that you can power very quickly out of this build.
They also look like very early games that I played with this build: I'd make some roaches and achieve some success, then back off to power right away. Game 1 especially, that was a 7 minute roflstomp win as he made waaaaay too many zealots. Try trusting the aggressive nature of the build a bit more and see what happens.
REGARDING THE 5RR IN ZVZ
Don't. =)
13 pool/13 extractor, stop making drones at 14. With your first 6-10 zerglings, poke into the enemy base. If your opponent is skipping straight to roaches, just kill his queen and run out (even if there's a spine crawler). It's a ridiculously easy way to win ZvZ, even though it may take you 10+ more minutes to convert that win. You'll get to lair first as your opponent will need to re-make his queen, which when combined with the larvae setback gives a huge edge no matter what tech path you take.
I cannot remember this exactly, but it is against a 300 point zerg. Beats his ling/bane and proceeds to kick ass.
These replays should be proof enough that you can power very quickly out of this build.
They also look like very early games that I played with this build: I'd make some roaches and achieve some success, then back off to power right away. Game 1 especially, that was a 7 minute roflstomp win as he made waaaaay too many zealots. Try trusting the aggressive nature of the build a bit more and see what happens.
REGARDING THE 5RR IN ZVZ
Don't. =)
13 pool/13 extractor, stop making drones at 14. With your first 6-10 zerglings, poke into the enemy base. If your opponent is skipping straight to roaches, just kill his queen and run out (even if there's a spine crawler). It's a ridiculously easy way to win ZvZ, even though it may take you 10+ more minutes to convert that win. You'll get to lair first as your opponent will need to re-make his queen, which when combined with the larvae setback gives a huge edge no matter what tech path you take.
Luckily I have a variety of ZvsZ replays which highlight this build and it works just fine, timing is pretty critical, and you need to be reactive to the possibility of early lings. Simple scouting will let you alter the build to work in any situation, whether you need to go ling heavy, the point is this is a very economical opener which allows for fast roaches and pretty fast speed lings, you could even squeeze in a banelings nest.This build usually dictates a ling/muta game from the linging zerg, but a quick switch to hydra defeats that, and this I demonstrate the transition twice.
Feels nice coming off my hands, just did it a few times in the YABOT. The timings are sweet, as a still learning zerg, its nice having a variation off my 13 pool/13 gas 16 queen 16 overlord stuff.
Dood ty so much for this op. Im only in a silver league, but Ive won the last 14 of 15 games going for this build. And this happened right after I lost 10 str8 games or so..
I definitely recommend this build to all low level players like me.
I just wanted to say thank you for this build, it has been working great for me so far. I am around 700 diamond and it has lead to wins in all 4 of the games I used it in. Even if the terran has a few marauders the roaches can get down part of the wall and you will have speedlings to reinforce soon after that. My timing is still not perfect with it so it could be an even better build once I get that down. Regardless, it feels so nice to be the one applying the early pressure as zerg and not waiting in my base for the inevitable attack from the opposing player.
This build is also possible in ZvZ, what's more it's even better than ling/bane. It's quite simple because you need just 4-5 roaches to block the ramp if you want to play 1 base and you need just 3 roaches on ramp + 5 outside to secure your expansion from which point you will be ahead a lot. You need about 3 queens to prevent early mutas and later you just make hydras. You can also go muta yourself. The other idea is to make more roaches and queens ( ~5 queens ) and make a nydus worm near opponents base so your queens can get there pretty fast ( it's also possible on smaller maps like Scrap Station through rocks or close spots metalpolis/LT).
Thanks so much for this well-written, well thought out and just excellent opening post and follow-up throughout the thread.
I'm playing Zerg at Silver/Gold level, so a comparatively low level for this forum's standards. Until I read this thread, whenever I played a Terran or Protoss that would wall-off, I'd just try to keep him contained and macro up till I hit Broodlords. That would usually win me the game, although I don't scout enough (should learn to sacrifice Overlords) and would thus sometimes be overrun by my opponent's first wave with Thors or Collossi. I have tried the baneling bust as alternative, but experienced it as a heavy investment with limited success.
While I kept playing Zerg, it made for a lot of long (30+ minute games), as I had map control but had to tech up a long way to get the job done. Usually I'd know I'd win halfway, it would just take more time.
Then I read this thread. Practiced a few skirmishes to get the timing right, which was difficult at first. Then I played 1v1 league games. I won 8 out of 9. The loss was my own stupid mistake, as I scouted an Airport but didn't tech to spore crawlers or Lair and got Banshee'd.
A few specific remarks: - I usually send a scout at 9, earlier on large maps. At 13 (Spawning Pool) I can see whether or not my Terran or Protoss opponent walls of. When he does, I continue the 5 Roach Rush build. When he doesn't, I go 13 Pool 12 Extractor Speedling. I absolutely *love* this early game flexibility, makes Zerg and particularly the scouting activity more interesting. This alone makes the opening post invaluable to me. - My games take a lot shorter than they used to. With this build it's usually 'gg' after 11-12 minutes, unlike 30+. - 5 Roaches is just such an excellent, right number. It blows up the lightest thing blocking the ramp, and then it's speedling go-go-go to the mineral line. Just plain works and is fast enough. - I've had an issue with a Protoss blocking the ramp with two Gateways. Luckily, it was on Blistering Sands so I just blew up the alternate entrance. On another map (e.g. Steppes of War) the right thing to do would be to macro up like I used to I suppose. - Back-teching to Speedlings just is a nasty surprise for some players at my level. I guess they only expect you to tech up, so they go full Stalkers / Marauders once the see my Roaches. Even if I lose some momentum, when he fails to scout my mass Speedlings follow-up (common at my level), he's done for.
Once again, many thanks. I'm up to rank 2 Silver and probably headed into Gold soon thanks to this.
I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking. This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while. Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky). Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
In short the difference between the builds are
1 base better eco earlier pressure ~20sec
2 base earlier hatch which means quicker to get 2 queens and lair to handle potential air units and tech by opponent if pressure fails more larvae to get economy going faster more larvae to spam lings if you decide to go all in easier to make static D in time
you build is a bit different then the one I suggested of one base. But the differences between them is slight eco difference (1 drone?) and your pressure is probably delayed a little bit (5-10sec?).
If you do see a good opportunity both builds allow for baneling nest to be put down when roaches are getting made and you can make you first lings into banelings. This allows for much quicker breakdown of the wall which is huge cause it can be the difference of a marauder or 2 getting made or not which will hugely decide you success with this pressure. Or its the difference of some marines killing 1-2 roaches before wall is down and killing no roaches. Or you can save the banes for the worker pull if you are confident that the roaches will bust the wall by themselves. 2 banes in there when workers get pulled could be hilarious, I never done it though.
The builds punish greedy tech play by T. But if he goes something like 8 marines or 2-3 marauders before teching you are behind and in a worse position then if you just focused on droning and teching to handle whatever terran decided to own you with this time. Lets say pressure fails, and T goes some cliff drop, you will be behind in regards to dealing with this.
I do not think an early pressure build should ever work vs a toss that knows what he is doing (unless he FEs which I guess is almost standard play now but anyway). Pumping sentries just deal with it well enough and he can do whatever he wants, 4 gate in particular is scary here I think.
The build I suggested has some weakness. Like very early marine/marauder play. It is troublesome to defend as you put 350mins into an expo that has yet to make any real contribution.
I think this build similarly might have weakness. But I think both builds have flexibility to them.
You do not need to make the 5 roaches even if you put the roach warren down. You can make speedlings instead and just play it as 14p 14e speed, hatch at like 20-25. Which is standard play vs T. You will have some things delayed cause of the roach warren. But you will also have an easier time transitioning into roaches should T decide he wants to 8-igniter-helion you. I think that both builds could allow for a lot of flexibility the key is as with all Z builds to know when to attack, when to def, when to tech and when to drone. Its important to keep in mind that even if the builds strive for making an early attack its not always the best thing to do. Scouting is important
So I definitely think this BO has value. And I've seen dimaga done it, or similar many times.
I used my BO to great effect vs ~500 rated terrans. And it works. But the question is does it work cause even 500 rated terrans simply can't play and as soon as someone disrupts their early thor tactic and they then no longer know what to do?. I dont know.... most terrans I play just seem terrible. And the few that seem better I just loose to no matter what I do anyway =)
I cannot remember this exactly, but it is against a 300 point zerg. Beats his ling/bane and proceeds to kick ass.
These replays should be proof enough that you can power very quickly out of this build.
They also look like very early games that I played with this build: I'd make some roaches and achieve some success, then back off to power right away. Game 1 especially, that was a 7 minute roflstomp win as he made waaaaay too many zealots. Try trusting the aggressive nature of the build a bit more and see what happens.
REGARDING THE 5RR IN ZVZ
Don't. =)
13 pool/13 extractor, stop making drones at 14. With your first 6-10 zerglings, poke into the enemy base. If your opponent is skipping straight to roaches, just kill his queen and run out (even if there's a spine crawler). It's a ridiculously easy way to win ZvZ, even though it may take you 10+ more minutes to convert that win. You'll get to lair first as your opponent will need to re-make his queen, which when combined with the larvae setback gives a huge edge no matter what tech path you take.
Be more agressive? So not used to that... should I have just done what I could with roaches or reinforced with lings for the win?
As for ZvZ I think it could be better if you just built lings until the scout was dead, be it a drone or an ovie, so you have 4-8. That plus a queen should be plenty until your roaches pop.
Was effective for me vs a 650 diamond toss last night. I tried it vs a terran but I should have pulled back when I saw he wasn't teching and going 3 rax MM push.
I still think this will be the most effective vs hard teching terrans, especially if they are planning on switch addons for hellions.
I've been trying it. I'm in silver right now (For some reason fighting diamonds... which is frustrating) and it's "working". I've only had one game where I GG'd on the rush, but every time I do it... I do significant damage to their econ where the rest of the game is in my favor.
I want to reiterate one point you did make... don't let you roaches get surrounded by workers. I know it's a common sense thing, but everyone gets caught up every now and then.... and that absolutely lost me a game that I should have won.
How would this have worked against Morrow's totally-abuse-Zerg's-inability-to-scout build (on Steppes)? He did go for marauders, but was hiding them. I'm just curious what Morrow would have had at the point when 5 roaches showed up at his ramp, although I'm not sure if anyone's done this build enough to know the timings that well. It would have at least allowed the Zerg to see Morrow's tech, so as long as the game is still playable in that scenario I think I'm going to do this build a lot more often.
I don't think it would have work at all. He would have just switched to full mara production and would probably still have all his reapers when your lings arrived. This build really only works against early fact openings imo.
On August 22 2010 21:16 Bair wrote: Be more agressive? So not used to that... should I have just done what I could with roaches or reinforced with lings for the win?
You basically have to commit to 1 round of lings semi-blind. Scout the ramp with your first two as your roaches are walking (I'm super bad at this) Then the second round of lings only if it looks promising, otherwise build drones.
On August 22 2010 21:16 Bair wrote:
As for ZvZ I think it could be better if you just built lings until the scout was dead, be it a drone or an ovie, so you have 4-8. That plus a queen should be plenty until your roaches pop.
Yes, this would make the build "work" for ZvZ. I won't go into all the nuances of ZvZ; suffice to say that I think while roach openings avoid the baneling phase of the game, they don't lead to any particular advantage.
I need to test this build more and i really like the aggressivity of it.
But overall i think the 15gas / 14 pool / speedlings / 2nd queen / 2nd hatch is better. It's defensive potential is equal or even greater because of the extra creep by the 2nd queen. It gets mutas a little bit earlier and you have 2 extra gas because of the earlier expansion. It should be able to deal with any kind of rax-tech lab opening better, which we will probably see more in the future after the iem finals.
If the added aggressivity is worth this? I think every player must evaluate for himself. Other thoughts?
I really like the promise of early aggression while not falling behind in drones and even getting the expansion up in a timely manner. I will definitely go and try this next time i random zerg.
I also watched the replay against whiplash. Though nobody is perfect, it shows nicely how speedlings can take out a same size protoss army. His mistake there was probably not using force fields to survive it(can´t remember if he had enough sentries with him). Anyway was a pleasant watch.
By the way, because of this thread I specifically tested zealots vs roaches a bit. Attackwalking is a must with roaches attack cooldown of 2 and zealots attacking about twice as fast. It´s a complete turn around from "zealots win, not even close" to "not even close, the other way around". I genuinely didn´t know that before.
Right now it is similar. Can one make both identical up till the point of 5 Roach production, so you can capitalize on their weak spot in air defense or ground defense? In ZvT it should be very possible since Roach>Marines and Muta>Marauder. Protoss can defend both with Sentry/Stalker though.
[multiedit] It would be nice if BOs like this could weed out crap terrans in higher leagues. I think they get placed high cause many people have a mental block against T(imba mmm etc.) and don´t know how to effectively pressure early vs. T. It gives all Ts a bad name, that´s also why I switched to random [/multiedit](I should probably just double post) [/edit]
Actually this Build i played some days ago, smth like this, for protoss especially. I made 6-7 Roaches. 5 isntant and 1-2 some seconds later. You can do heavy pressure for most BOs of protoss.
You doing little bit good transition in speedlings if your first timing attack works very good. seems like an all-in. But... who teh f*ck cares? Its actually not all-in. Its a BO like very other BO. You can transition into more pressure or macro mode.
Why is this as zerg not allowed? Protoss does this crap ALL THE TIME, these all-in BOs with gimping eco.
And im really sick of doing defense mode all the time to all these agressive BOs of T&P and then to see that i cant hold it 100% and then to lose because the timing pushes are so stupid easy to execute and hardcore mode to defend actually.
Whats wrong in doing pressure at the beginning as Zerg and then transition into macro mode or more pressure? Why the Fuck did we get a Queen in SC2 and Roaches? I remember that Blizzard once said, Zerg gets Roaches just because so they have something they can do *Pressure* with in the early Game! That was in Beta around April i guess.
Its nice to defend vs reapers in early with this Build and Terran is really fucked after this and forced into Maraus. While you exand and go Mutas.
Vs. Protoss you gain the Time you need to expand without problems while doing good DMG maybe to the Protoss or denying his expo in early. Whats wrong with this Playstyle?
Imho Most Zergs are to MUCH into Macro Playstyle, maybe it is the only way to play in pro gaming levels... but 90% here arent pro gamers at all, so...?
ps: im platinum on my way to diamond actually. so i play diamond and platinum people. the build works. actually, my 1 base Muta into expo vs. Terran works also very good, but i like this one here little bit more.
I'm ranked #1 in my BRONZE league, and I'm playing Platinum players and wrecking them with this build. I'm bad..... really, really bad. And this build is pure gold.
Thank you Fist.
Also, I've begun to refer to this opening as the "Fist opening" as in
"I'm opening with The Fist" or "I just fisted my opponent to death" or "I'm fisting him right now."
I've fisted 5 terran, 2 protoss, and 2 zerg to this point, and I've won all of my games.
I love the concept of this build, show the early (non-speed) zergling, hit them with roaches to break the wall and force a switch then swarm in with speed zerglings. As a player who has a lot more time to read about the game than play it (ie my mechanics are terribad) I thought I'd give it a shot in the silver/gold sort of range.
Unfortunately at the lower levels I'm finding it not quite as effective in practice as on paper because it's a bit too meta for your opponent, especially vs terran. I couldn't force marauders in any of my games. Instead you break their wall but the roaches can't kill all the marines and the lings dripping in can't quite come fast enough to stop the wall eventually going back up. So my advice for lower level players is if you see lots of marines build a second round of roaches before attacking and it's probably GG right there.
Against protoss at lower levels it's auto-win against anyone not doing cannon wall offs though, I love it. Against mass cannons in retrospect I probably wouldn't even make my round of roaches and just expand rather than try to force the issue (ended badly both times I tried, I was trying to end the game before the void ray cheese that mass cannons usually spells).
I gave it a try against Zerg since people say it can work, but my experience is everyone at the lower levels pools really early and by the time you get roaches they'll have enough lings to surround and kill them.
Probably not news to any good players, but thought it may be useful to lower level players working their way up.
@Umpteen: great post, all too familiar, my favourite was when I made the extractor but forgot to put anyone in it until it was time to make roaches. Delayed zerglings with no speed are imba ...
Oh man, I just tried this and failed miserably against a Protoss player, but I can say it was my fault. Basically not only my timings are a bit off (I added the build to YABOT to work on that) but I tried doing damage when the Protoss had two stalkers out, which can very easily outmicro Roaches, and then ate a counter attack with a few gateway units and a hidden Stargate Void Ray.
Still, it's so nice to have another option besides the safe fast zergling speed.
I had a good deal of success with this build today (~550-600 diamond). What I really like about it is that is the only build I have played that really gives the Zerg the chance to dictate the early game. I found that I win outright a decent % of the time (maybe 1/5 games). Even if the initial push fails I have gained valuable info and even forced the opponent into making a specific set a units. A good deal of time I am able to at least deal some significant economic damage while setting up my own expo and droning hard as the opponent scrambles to d up.
I still think the 15 gas 14 pool build may be a little bit better on large maps but I really have been liking this build on smaller maps. It's nice not to be playing reactive until T3.
On August 23 2010 09:07 Shakes wrote: I love the concept of this build, show the early (non-speed) zergling, hit them with roaches to break the wall and force a switch then swarm in with speed zerglings. As a player who has a lot more time to read about the game than play it (ie my mechanics are terribad) I thought I'd give it a shot in the silver/gold sort of range.
Unfortunately at the lower levels I'm finding it not quite as effective in practice as on paper because it's a bit too meta for your opponent, especially vs terran. I couldn't force marauders in any of my games. Instead you break their wall but the roaches can't kill all the marines and the lings dripping in can't quite come fast enough to stop the wall eventually going back up. So my advice for lower level players is if you see lots of marines build a second round of roaches before attacking and it's probably GG right there.
Against protoss at lower levels it's auto-win against anyone not doing cannon wall offs though, I love it. Against mass cannons in retrospect I probably wouldn't even make my round of roaches and just expand rather than try to force the issue (ended badly both times I tried, I was trying to end the game before the void ray cheese that mass cannons usually spells).
I gave it a try against Zerg since people say it can work, but my experience is everyone at the lower levels pools really early and by the time you get roaches they'll have enough lings to surround and kill them.
Probably not news to any good players, but thought it may be useful to lower level players working their way up.
@Umpteen: great post, all too familiar, my favourite was when I made the extractor but forgot to put anyone in it until it was time to make roaches. Delayed zerglings with no speed are imba ...
But thats exactly what this build is NOT for. Its not an all.in build. Your goal should never to end the game with your raoches/lings at beginning, never. Thats stupid. If your opponent is very bad you will see it, and then you can end it. Otherwise, if you cant do DMG or break wallins etc. doesnt matter, you got a good defense against every other shit like reapers/helions/berserker rush blabla etc. pp. thats the point.
Macro up like normal after the Push. Go Mutas and win.
I tested this build out against some very hard protoss AI's, and they ate it for dinner. Yea, my timing isn't great, but they were able to get out an immortal before my attack arrived, so I lost every time I tried it (this was on Steppes of War too).
That said, I doubt I'd feel too comfortable using this against Protoss, but I haven't really tried playing a walled in Terran (can't use an AI for that). This seems like it has potential. I was already looking for a quicker roach build that could help me deal with reaper and hellion harass.
Just played vs this build and it is scary shit espcially when it transitions to mutas now thx to the magic box crazyness. However one weakness I was able to find was the second I see the roach den to make quick tanks and quick rauders. Hell attempt to break your wall and just use repair, once you have a few rauders and some rines with 2 tanks push out with some scvs. Bunker up his Nat to keep pressure while you switch to thors and Missle turrets to stop the mutas. Then this will help you transition nicely into a late game mech.
EDIT: Just did the same thing twice in a row... It works great since the roaches delay the mutas a bit a quick switch to tank rauder w some scvs to bunker really puts a hole on the Zerg cuz now they cant grab their 3rd and are contained in their base letting you get your expo up fast and taking map control.
I lost to this build today as a 700-diamond player, so it obviously works guys.
What I like about these kinds of topics though is that it provides new strategies for Zerg players, but it also allows people like me to read through them and try to figure out what I can do against this and play against it in future.
Here's my build when playing against a protoss, since they transition to zealot/stalker really fast you need to both slings/roach.
15pool 15gas 15ol 1 ling when pool done drones if you didn't scout 2 gate no gas, else you need lings and throw the roach warren faster metabolic boost with first 100 gas roach warren at about 7/8 when queen is about to finish. 5 roach I rally them to the protoss' choke. Next 2 batch of larva goes for zerlings, rally them on roach, depending on the map, roach and zergling will meet in same time to the protoss' choke. After you'll have another wave of zerlings to back up. This can easily become an all-in build if you don't pump few drones here and there. I like to get a second queen when I'm about to push, second gas, expand is risky. Also help if Void Ray are already out. If the 4 gates are already out, which most of the time are not, toss is favored, might as well go back in your base and defend. If he's teching, you're greatly favored, if he has good sentry micro, you wont get in, but most of the time you still get in. If this fails, you're behind economically and have to build atleast 3 crawler.
It's all about scouting. If you see 2 gates no gas, you need roach warren right after pool is done, delaying my bo.
Pretty successful build, my win rate vs protoss is about 75%. Rarely get to a t3 game.
Found some replay, i was about 650, not my best games, maybe timing are a bit off too. http://www.mediafire.com/file/2s81zem88lunjc6/replay.rar First one, toss is teching to robo. Get Roach Warren faster since 2 gates. Second is a toss teching to stargate. Roach also faster since 2 gates. Third is a 4gate push. Toss wasn't that good and he didn't even wall.
Here's a replay from today. ~750 http://www.mediafire.com/?zz6k5ckv8y5iepq Over did it with the drone at the start, then went all in in this game since he was teching. Recently I'm going 9/10 ol, 11/10 drone to have the larva a little bit faster, but didn't check if it was worth it yet and end up with a late pool/gas.
Enemy scouted roach warren and went heavy marauder/tank and light marine. He could have a moved into my base and rolled me but instead he decided to play cute with siege mode that he didn't need. Mutas came out and he had nothing to counter them.
I think I countered it hard by faking a 2gate on Steppes of War. I'm not sure entirely thats the build he went to - he built a spine crawler probably so I wouldn't overwhelm him. Also notice the misconception on my part. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/62379-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war I know, not the best player in the world probably don't even want to be.
I'd like to know how would you counter it back, out of curiosity since I play Random and I want to know what should I do in a situation like this. (If I was on the other side)
Also it seems that now almost every zerg uses this strategy, or atleast people in plat. Thanks for the guide man!
edit: He probably should have scouted me with his overlord near my base, but I still don't think he had much to do.
Having tried this build a few times now, i gotta say it's insanely effective in the Gold divisions, which isn't saying much but still. I'm loving this build so far.
On August 23 2010 17:21 LPolaright wrote: I'd like to know how would you counter it back, out of curiosity since I play Random and I want to know what should I do in a situation like this. (If I was on the other side)
1.) This zerg did not do the 5RR build. He did something completely different. 5RR build would have had roaches nearly 2 minutes earlier than this player.
2.) Simple scouting counters your build, because your army is tiny and a simple ~50 food push finishes you off, if you don't have good forcefield micro to block your own ramp.
3.) If the zerg had instantly started queen production when he saw your voidray he would have had 2 queens with a 3rd halfway done when your army went into his main.
4.) At the beginning he missed a complete inject, cause he instantly placed a creep tumor, even though he had no expo at his natural. The primary reason to throw down a early creep tumor is to connect main and natural for easier defense.
5.) I'm sure i missed something, because i'm really tired.
Hi there! I'm still quite a noob, playing SC2 since a month and not having played SC since years. While I got "better" quite fast and am scored as a ~700 platinum, I still have issues dealing with early pressure if I am not the one doing it (which somehow every opponent expects of u as zerg...).
As this strategy is very easy to execute and leaves you with a decent economy to evolve from and a huge load of possibilities, I use it very much and yet I don't try to all in after the blockade bust because I want my mid and especially my late game macro to grow better.
As I kept going, I had much success with the 5rr and I always could point out a mistake at some point at lost games, but this time, I had a devastating loss, possibly because of my lack of ability to read other races' build orders. Well, here's a replay:
Everything went as planned, at perfect timing, and as my roaches were about to march in and my OL and the Expo were morphing (he didn't scout at all, despite hiding an SCV to see my expo timing), my 2 lings spotted a tech lab and I thought "k, marauders...". So, ingame decision making: 1 or 2 larvawaves on drones, lair, some zerglings, spire, then 3rd expo, mutaharrass and so on, but at the time my expo went up, it came: MM, 3rax at least! lost expo, morphed a load of lings, threw up 2 spines and though "okay, THAT wasnt planned... now hold out 'til ur spire is up and you can get back into the game... oh, my forces gone already? gg -.-
what could i have done better? please give me some advice
I tried it a few times today. vs P: I won every game the opponent didnt wall off. When they did I was in trouble. The amount of harrass you can do against a wall never seems to justify the cost of the roaches. Not to mention the problems sentries cause. Really good against void ray rushers but the vast majority of P 4 gate (which is a hard counter imo).
vs T: Way better. At the moment early marauders are a lot less common than early stalkers so its less likely to find a T base you cant recuperate your roach costs on.
Here you have a replay against Cloud, it was my first game today though so my play is not 100% good but still ^^ He goes for standard reaper build against zerg but it actually gets countered by early roaches. It's not exact 5RR build but when i saw his 3x barracks i decided to go roaches. You can see that i start speed for lings just after it and then make a bunch of lings which unfortunately don't have time to get to his base :D
I tried it on every game i played on Steppes of war yesterday. I'm at work now, so no replay sry :/
vs Z : I defended against the early 6 ling with queen+drones and countered with roach. It turns out his banelings are really ineffective against my roaches :D. He gg'ed fast enough
vs P : I lost twice to 2 gate pressure into expand. Once i forgot a Overlord (T_T) and could only pop 2 roach against 6 zealots . The second time i successfully defended the zealot rush, but he kept putting pressure on me and prevented me to put my expansion ( roach micro off creep is hard T.T ). He eventually out macroed me.
vs T: He went 3 rax reaper and dealt no damage at all because his micro was sub-part. He tried to bunker my ramp but roaches destroyed his bunker then i went to harrassed and destroyed 1 depot + 1 tech add on. Iswitched to muta while he transitionned into Marauder-Tank. You can all guess how it went :D
As a result i think this opening is great ( although i would not do it on long rush distance map) but i still need to micro these roaches better, especially off creep.
Everything went as planned, at perfect timing, and as my roaches were about to march in and my OL and the Expo were morphing (he didn't scout at all, despite hiding an SCV to see my expo timing), my 2 lings spotted a tech lab and I thought "k, marauders...". So, ingame decision making: 1 or 2 larvawaves on drones, lair, some zerglings, spire, then 3rd expo, mutaharrass and so on, but at the time my expo went up, it came: MM, 3rax at least! lost expo, morphed a load of lings, threw up 2 spines and though "okay, THAT wasnt planned... now hold out 'til ur spire is up and you can get back into the game... oh, my forces gone already? gg -.-
what could i have done better? please give me some advice
I watched the replay you linked and I actually think your timing still could improve quite a bit. The biggest things in my eyes were around 30 supply, where this build gets quite busy anyway. You did not morph the second injection into 10 lings and you did not get ling speed at that time either. Also you did neither scout with an OL or your first 2 lings at his choke and you did not attack with your roaches. Attacking with 5 Roaches is the whole concept of the 5 roach rush as far as I did understand.
If your opponent is opening with marauders or stalkers, you have to back-tech to zerglings ASAP or you'll often die outright.
This. Also this build will most probably die to 1base 4 gate and 1 base 3rax unless you build lots of lings asap.
Also you could and should hide your scouting drone in his base as long as you can, so you can see his tech. Knowing that he has 3 rax could have helped you survive. And no, Muta tech takes forever to complete, so you cannot wait it out when he goes aggressive opening(3rax).
On August 23 2010 21:03 Mataza wrote: Also you could and should hide your scouting drone in his base as long as you can, so you can see his tech. Knowing that he has 3 rax could have helped you survive. And no, Muta tech takes forever to complete, so you cannot wait it out when he goes aggressive opening(3rax).
I hope this is helpful to you.
This is indeed helpful, thank you very much... you are actually right, i asked myself again and again what would have happened if i just attacked and not went back, thinking "omg techlab - MARAUDERS!!! AAAAH!". I then skipped the zerglings and zergling speed but that (and forgetting banelings) was exactly the WRONG thing to do when he was about to mass bio, which i should have known by saccing an OL... thank you very much! kept loosing today due to lack of concept, but i'll try to fight my deamons and go 5rr -> splings/muta/hydra again
As the hysteria over the 3 or 5 rax reaper is only a few days old, I don't know. All I do know is that every reaper attempt against me so far has failed when I do the 5RR.
The 5RR would get to his base around the 6 minute mark. At that time, MorroW has 3 reapers and a marine with 3 operational barracks. 5 roaches vs 3 reapers and a marine, with zerglings on the way. MorroW didn't scan and would not have seen the roaches until they were incoming.
I'm not going to claim it would win outright vs MorroW, but I think it would have been very strong. I know that players I've faced who had similar compositions against me have just rolled over.
Updated the OP with replays against 3 and 5 rax reaper. Both vs 800+ diamonds.
Today I've face 4 terrans, 3 of whom went 3 or 5 rax reaper. 2 got obliterated, and the other it was just a formality winning the game after the initial rush. The only guy who didn't reaper rush me was the guy who won against me with a hellion drop.
On August 24 2010 03:09 Fistdantilus wrote: Today I've face 4 terrans, 3 of whom went 3 or 5 rax reaper. 2 got obliterated, and the other it was just a formality winning the game after the initial rush. The only guy who didn't reaper rush me was the guy who won against me with a hellion drop.
It's the same on EU server, seems like 95% of my terran opponents are going 3 or 5 rax reaper. It's getting really annoying. The only good thing is that most of the terrans doing this don't know when to stop making reapers and transition to something else.
As zerg you shouldn't overcommit to roaches, because the terran will switch to marauders and rape you instantly. I use this build with a slight variaton against terran reaper builds and so far it's not that bad. If you use those 5 roaches to stay alive until ling speed is finished and you have a second queen for easy and fast creep spreading you should be in good shape.
Tried it in say 10 games right now. Lost 8 first when I tried being very agressive all inish with it, but then I tried for more of a poke them and take out soft targets approach, then retreat. And it works pretty well for me.
More fun than speedlings into fe at the very least. It feels good to be able to force the game in your direction for once!
After testing it some more, I`ve kind of realized that I`m just not suited for this build at all. I just fail playing it. Is it normal that there are like 2 marauders and 3-4 marines on top of the wall in when you get there with the roaches?
On August 24 2010 05:44 captive411 wrote: Why is roach burrow so underused? I think it kicks ass but have rarely seen pros use it.
To late to tech. Why should i use mass raoches at this stage of the game instead of mutas and/or hydras? there is no reason for that,
1. roaches ar sooo damn easy to counter for protoss and terran. its not funny at all.
2. to much upgrades needed for roaches, u need speedupgrade and upgrade to move while burrowed? AND the burrow upgrade itself? i mean wtf?!
In beta i used alot burrowed roaches until everyone knew how to counter it :D and roaches were 1 supply back then.
greets
Burrow in general seems to be un-used in high lvl. I know it takes a bit to tech, but you can tech it out of one lair while getting other upgrades. Helps to get a nice surround imo (then again I only play against crappy player because i'm noob.)
Just wanted to thank you for sharing this strategy. When I first read it I wasn't very enthusiastic, but at least in ZvT it worked very well for me in the last few games. Terrans just don't seem to expect any kind of pressure before mutas and very completly suprised by those 5 roaches.
I also want to thank you for this Strategy. I went 7-1 with it tonight, losing to a zerg that got a great baneling play on me(hit 4 drones i think). 3-1 against Zerg, 2-0 against Protoss, 2-0 against Terran.
The last game I played was against someone trying to do 5 rax reaper against me, and this shut it down. He was able to kill 3 of my Roaches cause he had 2 marauders pop right when I showed up, but I broke in and wave after wave of zergling ended it 1:30 later.
I feel very confident with this build. It transitions so well into other builds and it is shutting down a lot of powerful builds that have been plaguing FE Zerg, and 1 base speedling zerg for a while.
Had a close game against a 4gate rush where we met in middle. 5 roaches vs 6(?) Zealots. I won but it took a while to get to his base and start killing it. I spammed roaches till he got stalkers then came in with speedlings.
This build is awesome! I am getting very good results with it vs terran and protoss. However, I lose to protoss very convincingly when he techs to phoenixes.
Basically he had a couple stalkers with a sentry to hold off his ramp with very good use of force field. Of course, like stated in the OP, i back teched to lings immediately. With some OL useage I was even able to see that he had a stargate so I started building more queens and started lair tech right away. But that's exactly the problem. It was way too late to try and get hydra. The first phoenix goes around sniping outlier overlords, then once he reaches a 3-4 he can easily graviton the queens and kill them, which soon renders ALL your overlords completely helpless, not just the outlier ones. Of course then he expands, gets a way better economy, masses stalkers, colossi, sentries and steamrolls you.
What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though.
On August 24 2010 11:04 loafmaster wrote: This build is awesome! I am getting very good results with it vs terran and protoss. However, I lose to protoss very convincingly when he techs to phoenixes.
Basically he had a couple stalkers with a sentry to hold off his ramp with very good use of force field. Of course, like stated in the OP, i back teched to lings immediately. With some OL useage I was even able to see that he had a stargate so I started building more queens and started lair tech right away. But that's exactly the problem. It was way too late to try and get hydra. The first phoenix goes around sniping outlier overlords, then once he reaches a 3-4 he can easily graviton the queens and kill them, which soon renders ALL your overlords completely helpless, not just the outlier ones. Of course then he expands, gets a way better economy, masses stalkers, colossi, sentries and steamrolls you.
What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though.
Good question.
I've tried skipping the expansion and teching to lair, but find it strictly worse than expanding as you don't have the larvae to do everything you want. I think it may work in some situations and it's possible I just haven't smoothed out the details, but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Regarding anything stargate: start on the second and third queens ASAP as well as getting an evo chamber. You have time, and your opponent sacrificed his army strength to get phoenix which aren't great in a fight.
On August 24 2010 11:04 loafmaster wrote: What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though.
If it were me, I'd already have an OL in his base, checking out his other buildings. If its a Stargate, it means either pheonix or void ray.
Once my initial push fails, I'll upgrade to lair immidietly, along with making a evo chamber. Get a spore crawler in your bases, and see if its a void ray or pheoniz that comes out. go for a hydra den if pheonix, or muta on void rays. Build an extra queen. Your present queens should start making creep tumors, and meanwhile, my zerglings are going around, scouting for his expansions.
On August 24 2010 11:53 delaharl wrote: If it were me, I'd already have an OL in his base, checking out his other buildings. If its a Stargate, it means either pheonix or void ray.
Once my initial push fails, I'll upgrade to lair immidietly, along with making a evo chamber. Get a spore crawler in your bases, and see if its a void ray or pheoniz that comes out. go for a hydra den if pheonix, or muta on void rays. Build an extra queen. Your present queens should start making creep tumors, and meanwhile, my zerglings are going around, scouting for his expansions.
I don't know how I'll succeed though.
Any thoughts guys?
I think a standard transition to mutas should suffice though, since it's already a viable path down from the 5RR. Protoss air I find fails against mass mutas.
I'm now having a few problems with the timing. Seems I can't push through to some players. It definitely helps to attack when you're zerglings are on the way already, that way, when the supply goes down, in comes the lings.
Note: I use a modified version where I 12 pool 14 gas in order to have an earlier queen and get a few more lings earlier(or drones, if I decide that I need them). I also upgrade speed before making roaches and typically only make 4 roaches as I find that they are more than enough(and I simply don't have enough gas at that point ^^). It's the lings that provide the pressure, the roaches just open the door so to speak.
Analysis of the build vs protoss:
Against 2gate, I would recommend simply making the 4-5 roaches and powering drones. It seems that if you try to attack your force will be demolished since you wont be able to bust in before they get a cyb core and a stalker or two up and at that point you are in some deep shit(they can just counter-attack and force the instant gg). It depends on the map and their building placement though but the fact of the matter is that any dangerous follow up such as 4gate will come almost a minute later due to their later cyb core which means you can power drones that much harder. Not taking advantage would be a mistake in my opinion.
Against 1base 1gate+cyb: It depends on the map/ramp layout, but if they chrono boost 2 sentries out instead of chronoing their warp gate tech, the sheer amount of force fields they can produce to stall you while getting a stalker or two up is just too much to handle. If you see them chronoing their cyb core however it is almost a guaranteed win as they will have at most 1-2 zealots and maybe a sentry when you come knocking. Many people even as high as 900 diamond will actually go completely all in and just wall with a single zeal hoping that warpgate tech will finish the game for them.
Against 1gate forge FE. It depends a lot on their wall and their building sequence, if they went 1gate nexus before forge, you can usually bust through no problem. If they went 1gate forge and cannons to wall their choke before nexus, you will be throwing your units away. If they do however, you can just safely drone whore all the way to mutas and just harass them while taking the entire map. Just have to watch out for phoenixes.
What I find the major advantage of preparing a build like this from the get go is that on 2player maps, your overlord will be able to scout exactly what is coming before you have to commit to making the roaches and I believe that is the strength of this build. You can opt to simply not do it if it turns out it would be disadvantageous to go through with it.
I'll look at providing some replays to support my musings(haven't saved any lately) but I think most of what I'm saying is pretty self evident.
All in all, it's a really nice opening option that fills a hole of zergs weak early game that I never knew could be filled. It just simply never crossed my mind that getting both ling speed and investing in roaches could be a good idea so I never tried it and once I did, it was a very pleasant surprise. Thank you Fistdantilus!
On August 24 2010 14:50 Alsn wrote: Against 1base 1gate+cyb: It depends on the map/ramp layout, but if they chrono boost 2 sentries out instead of chronoing their warp gate tech, the sheer amount of force fields they can produce to stall you while getting a stalker or two up is just too much to handle. If you see them chronoing their cyb core however it is almost a guaranteed win as they will have at most 1-2 zealots and maybe a sentry when you come knocking. Many people even as high as 900 diamond will actually go completely all in and just wall with a single zeal hoping that warpgate tech will finish the game for them.
This is exactly my experiance, I got 3 roaches up to the zealot before he could forcefield, and from there soaked a lot of damage and busted in just as warp gate was finishing. Then it was simply pumping lings (and a few more roaches I think) to easily keep up the pressure and stop 2 big of an army warping in off 4 gates.
I LOVE this build. Kudos to you sir for creating it.
Having major success against protoss and terran. P has been especially fun, as this build PUNISHES teching so badly. Have beated 2 void ray rushers so far. 5 roaches come up and they just pound through the door and are followed by a bunch of lings. Its GG. Even with a stalker or 2 out im finding the roaches give as good as they get, and then the lings finish off.
Vs T i have actually had less success, mainly i think due to kulas ravine popping up a few times, and the HUGE walk distance making my roaches arrive a little late.
But overall a great build, includes an FE and provides a huge amount of early game pressure. Seems far better than banelings VS T. They WILL get the front supply depot down, and the they can wander in and assault!
did this the last 10+ games, works great versus terran if aint scouting your roach warren. i always delay it till scout is dead
14 pool 16 extractor 16 overloard 16 queen 18 2-4 lings 19/20 drones 20 roach warren 21 overloard wait till infused larvas pop build 5-7 roaches go 32 expo+lingspeed
works fine versus terrans cause they all asume a FE or muta tech and almost never build more than one marauder or even none. but most protoss will have few stalkers out and couple of zealots + a 4 gate will crush you soon after, so do not do it versus P
doesn't 1 gate stargate void rays stop this? gate goes down at 4:00 mins and finishes @ 5 mins (game time), the same time that the roaches finish. build time is 30 seconds fully chrono boosted which means it should be out by the time the roaches get there
VRs do not stop this. The worst i had was 1 ray out as i got there.
Busted through the front easy, killed pylons to stop and more VR production, then went for the workers with my speedlings. 1 VR takes far too long to kill that many lings and roaches.
You lose all your units, but if they have quick teched you inflict massive damage on their economy.
Then u just get an extra queen or 2 and keep pounding on the front door whilst transitioning to hydras.
In my experience with the build, the only way a Protoss can stop it is with sentries. You simply get to his door too fast for him to have enough stalkers. IF he has enough stalkers to scare you, then he doesn't have enough zealots for your zerglings and vice versa. Once you break a hole in his wall(Either zealot or pylon) a wave of zerglings flows in to crush his stalkers.
But if he has sentries he can just forcefield his ramp till he has enough forces to stop the roaches. IF this is the case then expand now, and get lair tech. Just contain him and threaten to come in every now and then. If he starts to push you can either lay down spine crawlers or your expansion is up and can pump units to defend. Don't be dumb and sacrifice your units when he pushes out, just bring them back to base. He will either attack or expand now.
The protoss has two options when you get to his door. Force Field his ramp or try and kill your roaches. Force Field is the superior choice here. After that he has two more choices, build an army(hopefully over commiting to immortals) to defend then push or tech. In either case you have the advantage because your expanding and teching at the same time. If he pushes out he has two more choices, Attack and expand or Expand and defend. If he is attacking you can put up 2-3 spine crawlers(Depending on army forces) and pump out some units, kill and counter attack because he just spent 400+ on his expansion. If he is defending then you can pump out 5-8 Muta's and harass and take his probe count down well below your drone count.
One build I ran into that gave this trouble is Marine Spam FE from terran. He has enough marines to destroy my roaches, and when I leave he Expands, and I kind of just have to let him. Luckily for me the Main and Nat were set up great for Muta Harass, so I was able to wreck his economy negating the expansion + setting him back some.
Frost-Duty United Kingdom. August 24 2010 23:38. Posts 4 PM Profile Quote # VRs do not stop this. The worst i had was 1 ray out as i got there.
Busted through the front easy, killed pylons to stop and more VR production, then went for the workers with my speedlings. 1 VR takes far too long to kill that many lings and roaches.
You lose all your units, but if they have quick teched you inflict massive damage on their economy.
Then u just get an extra queen or 2 and keep pounding on the front door whilst transitioning to hydras.
Then its GG
a person going 1 gate void rays will have 2 zealots and 1 stalker at their ramp blocking it, which means 2 zealots 1 stalker 1 vr vs 5 roaches 2 lings. also the stargate is built inside the base and you will not be able to get in to snipe the pylon. while your 5 roaches are hitting the zealots the void ray is charging up, i don't see how you could "bust through the front easily".
i just tested it on the unit tester and all 5 roaches and 2 lings die with 1 void ray and 1 stalker remaining. care to expand on how you break the protoss front?
Only in platinum, but i love this build. haven't had much opportunity to use it as i've had mostly ZvZ games today and i feel so much more confident with my ling/bling/muta play for ZvZ.
Won me 2-1 in pvp matches. Wins were by busting in and then overunning with speedlings. The loss was to a proxy 2gate at my natural on oasis where i messed up timings, got contained and then cannon pushed to death >.>
Haven't really used it in ZvT. Tried it on kulas (big mistake on my part ) and had to back off cos i spotted a bunker. then i lost the macro game since i always expand badly on kulas. The other game i had vs terran was on scrap station where he lifted at the start and flew to the island, so i threw the BO out the window and went mass expand mass corruptor and dragged the game out till i had enough broodlords/corruptors to a-move over his turret-filled, viking-covered, cruiser-supported island.
Going to the watching a lot of the ZvT replays though. terrans make me cringe. But mostly, massive thanks for a build that i can pressure with that isn't all-in.
How does this do vs the now fashionable mass reaper openings? Slow roaches are quite easy to kite. If they go reapers, probably best to pull back and defend?
Frost-Duty United Kingdom. August 24 2010 23:38. Posts 4 PM Profile Quote # VRs do not stop this. The worst i had was 1 ray out as i got there.
Busted through the front easy, killed pylons to stop and more VR production, then went for the workers with my speedlings. 1 VR takes far too long to kill that many lings and roaches.
You lose all your units, but if they have quick teched you inflict massive damage on their economy.
Then u just get an extra queen or 2 and keep pounding on the front door whilst transitioning to hydras.
Then its GG
a person going 1 gate void rays will have 2 zealots and 1 stalker at their ramp blocking it, which means 2 zealots 1 stalker 1 vr vs 5 roaches 2 lings. also the stargate is built inside the base and you will not be able to get in to snipe the pylon. while your 5 roaches are hitting the zealots the void ray is charging up, i don't see how you could "bust through the front easily".
i just tested it on the unit tester and all 5 roaches and 2 lings die with 1 void ray and 1 stalker remaining. care to expand on how you break the protoss front?
I just testing it vs my mate, hes in platinum, with a reasonable record. He lost with VRs. I easily took out the forces on the front gate, got into his base, VR is starting to hit me. I start taking down workers. All my stuff dies. THEN, my next bunch of like 12 speedlings runs in and go to town on his workers. VR cant kill them fast enough, he loses basically all his economy. From then on i had it won, got some queens to defend the VRs, massed hydras and hit his base for the GG.
Thats the game. No, we arent the pros, but i think its a pretty good representation of reasonable players, take a look and see what you think. We both made some mistakes, my expand was late etc, but i think they balanced out. We are 2 players of pretty equal skill level. I was testing the build out on him, he knew it was coming, and we decided to see if VR rush could stop it. He didnt think it could. Its possible the toss could have got some things out a little quicker, but i also think i could have hit him a little earlier as well, so again, i think we balance out.
What i think the replay demonstrates well is that even with a VR out the build can still do huge damage once you penetrate the base.
On August 25 2010 00:28 theSAiNT wrote: How does this do vs the now fashionable mass reaper openings? Slow roaches are quite easy to kite. If they go reapers, probably best to pull back and defend?
Check the OP, this build does very well against it.
I ran into it last night, and my Roaches were breaking his wall before 2 Reapers could get to my base(and just as the third one popped out). I actually killed one reaper and got the second one to 5 health on the way there(didn't chase the second one).
Got my first ZvT win in a while thanks to this build. He didn't wall off i nthe usual sense, but went 2rax mass marine with a bunker at the top of the ramp. spotted him move his rines out to check his nat (on scrap station) and i swung my roaches in to kill the bunker. then got his marines on his ramp with roaches and the wave of ling reinforcements. then it was all over :D
<3 this build As zerg we feel weak at times, but we adapt and overcome :D
some things i noticed your protoss buddy did wrong/weird -strange b/o -moved his zealots back allowing base access to your lings and roaches -FF badly placed, should split army
but mostly your friend was bad on a lot of timings. notice how at 6 minutes i have a void ray, 2 zealots, a stalker, and a sentry, which is when your 7 roach 2 ling push comes. shortlyafter my warp gate research is finished at which point i would have produced more zealots to stop the reinforcing zerglings, plus the two void rays will be fully charged already.
also, the build you are doing is not the OP's. you are doing an all in with lings and roaches. notice how you only have 15 drones @ 6:00 mins while in my replay i have 30 probes. if one had decided to cannon up they would severely out macro you. OP's build specifically states "without the all-in"
On August 25 2010 00:28 theSAiNT wrote: How does this do vs the now fashionable mass reaper openings? Slow roaches are quite easy to kite. If they go reapers, probably best to pull back and defend?
Just ignore them, if they try to kite, and kill them if they screw up their micro. In such small numbers, they don't do enough damage to stop you from dealing significant blows to the terran infrastructure. Go for depots, tech labs, or SCVs. In the meantime, he's potshotting you with a small handful of reapers against 5 roaches, while frantically trying to get out enough marauders to not die immediately. Unfortunately for T, there's 10+ speedlings on the way...
Regarding Frost's replay: I think it's very indicative of the general flow of the game. Obviously improvements can be made on both sides, but that's where skill comes in for either player.
The openings against each other provide a fun little dance and an interesting dynamic. After a bunch of games against it, I've come to regard them as roughly even against each other with a lot of skill-based play on both sides.
I watched about a dozen games last night from a Diamond level Terran 1:1:1 build and I am convinced that build exists because of the lack of pressure from any sort of early play that used to be standard with zerg players. 1 marine and 2 hellions in the first 7 minutes of the game were able to completely dictate and in fact dominate most of the zerg FE games.
These were plat/diamond level zergs too, and they just didn't have the chops to stand up to this early harass followed by a good mixed push.
The awesome part is: The 5 Roach Rush would have dominated this build. The 1:1:1 seems to have 1 to 2 marines, maybe a marauder, and maybe 2 hellions at the time you have 5 roaches knocking at his door with a dozen lings in tow. I was absolutely aghast at how well this build does against 1:1:1.
The Protoss that I spent watching had slightly modified his build wall off to include the core and the gateway with no pylons giving frontage, which makes the roach push a little tougher IMO, I owuld be scared of trying to power through 800 hps while being pounded on by a few zealots and a stalker/sentry.
@jisaeltl You are definitely a bit faster/have the better build.
I still think that your 3 zealots/stalker/sentry would die quickly and to that many roaches, without killing many in return, and the following wave of lings would be able to get into the base.
I adapted the OP build, as i just personally think that if you see them going VRs you should be able to push through and do a lot of damage with the lings/roaches, and basically punish them for teching. I still dont think its all in, i have a decent economy going, even if its not quite as strong as yours would be. But then i have to choose between units or workers, you dont. I also dont think its an all in because even if you stop the push it will not be without casualties. The zerg ground force should kill your ground force given how strong roaches are vs zealots, and then the following lings should be able to do reasonable economic damage before the VRs take them down, pretty much evening things out on that front.
Your build would definately have gotten a 2nd VR out earlier, which may well have made quite a bit of difference.
Im actually quite happy to trust the OP on this one, since he has probably had a lot more practice XD and go with the conclusion that they are fairly evenly matched, and the result would probably come down to the skills of the individual players. Not a bad thing!
Well, is this is a good opening vs 1/1/1 terran. I think we can get presure on terran with the fast roaches, like it should be.
The coolest thing on this build is, after the roaches destroyed the supply depot, you can go zerglings or macro up to muta's. What still get presure on the terran player.
Still i think zerg needs a new unit or something to stop these agressive openings from terran.
(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
Thanks mate, I've been practising this (just a gold player here) and it really feels like a nice solid opener that puts you in a good position in most games, it's good to have a good template going down on the wiki .
(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
GJ Mate. I was planning to do it myself tonight ( as i am at work now and i love this opening:p). Let me know if you need any help, i'll take a deeper look at it when i get home
Against terran you have to be careful not to lose all your unit without dealing major damage. If you see Marauder/Helions for example, you want to pull back to your nat and prepare to defend the incoming push with the help of a few more unit/spine crawler
I have found it much easier to end the game with the push against protoss than against terran.
On August 25 2010 22:04 Tyrran wrote: Against terran you have to be careful not to lose all your unit without dealing major damage. If you see Marauder/Helions for example, you want to pull back to your nat and prepare to defend the incoming push with the help of a few more unit/spine crawler
I have found it much easier to end the game with the push against protoss than against terran.
Honestly, I don't think you should try to end the game. You should just try to do some damage, convince the opponent you are going to allin, and then macro up. This will cause your opponent to become overly defensive, or he will come out with a counter push himself, but either way, you have done early damage and are set to go into a macro game, where as your opponent probably isn't. Now, of course you are going to end the game if you can, but its better to not jump the gun too much imo. Also, I think you can scout a maraud/stalker opening with your first lings, and if you see that, you can opt to not get the roaches right away,or to just use them defensively.
On August 25 2010 19:54 ZerG~LegenD wrote: The build order lacks some optimization.
1: The Roach Warren should be build at 75% in order for the Warren to pop at the same time as the Larva.
2: Making a Lair at 400 Gas is a huge waste of resources. One ought to pull Drones off Gas once the initial 225 Gas is succesfully mined.
I actually thought that point 2 went without saying, I did that like, subconciously the first time I did the build, however point 1 is definitely a good point. You should add that to the wikipedia page once you have a polished/optimized version of the build.
I'm only a gold zerg, but I tried this against 2 Terran last night. Game one my opponent was meh, he only had a factory and a handful or marines by the time I marched up his ramp with five roaches. Easy GG.
2nd game I screwed the BO up and only got three roaches, but I marched them in, made 2 drones and 4 more roaches at next larvae pop. The first three roaches faces 3-4 marines and a marauder but got his depot to 1/4 health. 2nd set of roaches broke his base and creamed the rest of the army, got three supply depots and scouted a Destiny Cloudfist +1 starport. Took out the tech labs and got owned by the banshees. But by that time, my expo was up, I was droning hardcore, got evo chamber + 2spores and a few extra queens. He switched to thor/rine so I back-teched to hydra/ling (which is surprisingly effective vs thor/rine), and he GG'ed outright.
Overall, the build puts amazing pressure on your opponent and put them off their game. This totally punishes tech builds. If I had let the terran expo and build up his army he would have rolled me. This early aggression forces them to produce an army, which cuts their safe expo / scv production, allowing me to stay on even footing or get slightly ahead. If you see a thor/banshee counter push just throw up a few spines/spores and macro up some slings and go into "survive this push" mode. Great build Fist, I am looking forward to trying it some more and modding it to see what Zerg can do against heavy bio.
(I would also like to point out that "marching" is the best term for roach movement, I play army music when I push).
I've been playing with this build a bit and it seems to me speedling@20 food (instead of after roaches) is a really nice alteration. You end up having to wait about 5-6 seconds for enough gas for the last roach, but your speedling research is done when the speedlings come out, and that means they move pretty quickly to the opponents base. You end up attacking with roaches + speedlings instead of roaches and then later speedlings.
I haven't really played around with it, but you could probably even fix that delay by getting gas before 15.
This build is really good. I tried yesterday against a Terran. I didn't do it perfectly, got out with only 4 roaches, missmicroed them at the choke, but still won.
Not very high-level game, but it is nice to be agressive with roaches early game.
thanks for this. build is sick and in the hands of someone with decent game sense and skill (e.g.. me!) can do no wrong. can transition from this into anything from moar roaches, lings to serious macro mode. thanks for the post.
(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
GJ Mate. I was planning to do it myself tonight ( as i am at work now and i love this opening:p). Let me know if you need any help, i'll take a deeper look at it when i get home
Thanks for the responses!
The sweet thing about Liquipedia is that everyone can help to contribute. I just laid the framework and you can edit the post to add information and correct mistakes. Feel free to help where you can (even if it's grammar, because mine sucks )!
I will also look into an alternative build order with earlier gas and getting Ling Speed before Roaches (with the first 100 Gas). If you can still get the roaches at the same time while building the gas on 13 this might be a huge improvement to the build and depending on the map size will let the first wave of lings reach the base almost at the same time as your roaches.
On August 26 2010 00:05 Newti wrote: I will also look into an alternative build order with earlier gas and getting Ling Speed before Roaches (with the first 100 Gas). If you can still get the roaches at the same time while building the gas on 13 this might be a huge improvement to the build and depending on the map size will let the first wave of lings reach the base almost at the same time as your roaches.
You are supposed to build the Extractor approximately 5 game seconds after Pool if you want to mine 225 gas and have time to remove the Drones before it's time to make Roaches. 14P14G or 13P13G hits the mark almost perfectly.
It takes approximately 55 game seconds to mine 100 Gas from one Geyser. This is very useful to know when you make the first draft for a build order.
This is just something I noticed, an observation I find amusing.
Is it me, or does this tactic have roots in the first days of beta? It seems similar to the roach onslaught that caused them to get nerfed into the ground. I remember opening roaches and the toss had to get a quick immortal out or get destroyed. With terran it caused a couple of days of fast thor to counter them. Then Zerg rebutted with infestors which eventually lead to NP having to be researched.
I guess we have come full circle :D
Terran will switch from reapers to marauders to mirror the rushes that caused their shells to be upgrades. This is fun!
Haha, so once again 14 pool 14 gas gives us the magic timing...what can't it do?!
Joking aside, I've been having trouble against Terrans that open reaper, repel the roaches with one production cycle of marauders, and then regain map control with more reapers, followed by a timing attack when spire is going up. Reaper marauder is a really strong composition
I don't have replays because i forgot to run SC2gears so none of the replays I wanted got autosaved, but I have a feeling that maybe it's possible to get spire up before the big attack if your timings are really tight. Anyone else experience this T style?
I think the variation with getting speed early is making this build quite a bit stronger. Everything just flows nicely into another. I use this build since it was posted in every ZvP i play with great success. Even if my protoss opponent is getting enough stalkers to render the early roach push void the 5 roaches together with a spine crawler will keep my expansion save. Against any kind of protoss early aggression i feel that i can get into midgame ahead of my opponent.
Against terran i still prefer another opening, because multiple barracks with tech-lab openings are so abundant after the IEM. If my opponent has those tech lab barracks i feel that 1-2 cycles of marauders are just too strong for this build to deal with.
I just started trying this, but I'm liking it vs T.
Against Protoss I react to a 2gate with Roaches and against a warpgate push I just try to macro perfectly and hold my expansion (at which point you win). If he goes warpgates -> expansion I just mass Hydras and steamroll before he can get enough colos out.
I love this build! I've been practicing and trying to get it down just right (losing a couple times to mistakes on my part). I noticed in the fast stargate replay the Protoss went for phoenix(s). How would you react to void rays? I recently played a match where after spotting the first void ray out I began an evo chamber and spore crawlers, but by then he was able to wreak havoc and began accumulating a large amount of void rays. More than likely mistakes on my part or bad placement, but what would your advice be regarding the correct way to handle void rays?
I've used this build vs a void ray toss. it worked pretty well. I busted in and started causing trouble, but the ray then came out and allowed him to start mopping up my forces.
main thing to do when you see the starport is: - Build 2nd queen asap - Get evo chamber and some spores
that should buy you enough time to get hydras out. In the game i played i ended up losing my queens as my hydras popped to fend off the push. then it was just build up hydras (he kept going air :D) and win, with the odd ling harrass as minerals piled up.
Fist great post and good job not giving into the armchair theorycrafters that evidently can counter any build with the power of their imagination. They don't seem to realize that there is no build that will win you every game, but having an arsenal of builds and adapting to your current situation is what makes a great player.
I absolutely love this build. It shuts down any early push by Toss, especially 2-gate. It is so funny seeing a Toss try a 2-gate and have his zealots destroyed by my roaches. I started using it against Terran as well and it is great when they go reapers. I did lose a game, when the Terran went tank, marauder, marine. I tried to tech to mutas but he pushed back before and lost.
I also stumbled upon a variation when I forgot to research speed after getting the extractor at 13. If you keep the drones on gas then you can actually pop 7 roaches at once, get speed for lings, and expo by the time the roaches pop. I was just recently promoted to gold thanks to this strat, so I don't know how viable it is, but does give you a little stronger push.
Hey guys, a HUGE fan of this build. Works pretty damn well against Protoss, and Terran sometimes, but I think I screwed up in this particular game. Can someone take a look at this and tell me exactly what went wrong? Feel free to flame/critique the hell out of me -- I could use some improvement.
Vs. Z, I thought it'd be useful to help block off the choke for speedling/banelings, and that's what I usually do since I hate the spling/bling game. I absolutely fail against 6 pool though.
Addendum: I was reading the OP about the BO and then looked at the Liquipedia BO, and I feel like I got lost in translation somewhere in between. Maybe that's what threw me off. Or I just suck.
Great post Fist. I love reading well done zerg build posts. Watched half the replays and read through some of the posts. I disagree with anybody putting this build down. This build does its job well. Its like a baneling type bust but more powerful and more economic and with a lot less risk from other openings the opponent does.
Definitely not an insta-win against anybody who isn't teching but the early pressure is HUGE especially since it's such a solid economic opening on top of the aggression
I'm finding I still prefer the 13 pool/15 gas because if you time it just right after getting zergling speed you will have 128 gas right when the RW pops, great optimization
i love this build, opens up my options a ton. if they over-compensate with stalkers lings will absolutely ruin their day
On August 20 2010 11:40 Fistdantilus wrote: 5 Roach Rush (5RR)
NOTE: All of the replays are on the old 13/15 build, but all of the ideas remain the same.
Anything else about the build different in the replays, besides getting gas earlier? Also, why'd you change it?
When getting 13 pool 15 gas you have 100 gas for Lings speed shortly after making 5 Roaches. When going 13 pool 13 gas you can get Ling speed with the first 100 gas and still get the roaches out at the same time with much, much earlier Ling speed.
After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30.
So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess.
I'm am at work so i cannot test the improved BO, but it seems really nice Delaying the roaches in the 5RR was bugging me a bit as i dont want protoss player to have time to get an extra sentry/stalker/immortal out.
I also like having the choice between squeezing 2 drones for an easier transition to mid game and 4 lings for a more agressive approach.
Edit:
I would also love to test the improved version ZvZ. I'm not sure of the timings against the banelings but i think it is worth a try. Depending on how fast i lose in the EPS qualifier tonigth i will test this today or tomorrow.
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30.
So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess.
Suggestions?
My god, every time I check this thread an already awesome build just keeps getting more optimized. Keep up the good work guys.
And I can't help thinking how amazing it would be if this build starts seeing really high-level play and the commentators did in fact refer to it as "The Fist". Not only does it have that sweet ring to it and is a shoutout to the OP of the thread, but it's also a build based around punching a hole in your opponents base early with five roaches. Five fingers make a fist right? Too perfect.
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30.
So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
first I want to apologize for not reading everything and not watching any of these replays
nevertheless I have a specific question regarding this and feel it would be faster/better if I just asked directly: do you have a replay that specifically shows how to beat a protoss-player who goes for fast void rays? I'm a protoss-player myself and when scouting the roach warren I always go with an early void ray (also vs FE but on big maps: phoenixes) and get as many sentries as I can afford gas-wise; I lay low on stalkers to save my gas for void rays and sentries; I'm not a good player so my opponents consequently are not very good either; nevertheless I don't want to "stick" with a build that will result in a definite loss when my opponent knows what he's doing; so do you think you could deal enough damage vs hardcore-force-fielding protoss-players before the void ray (chrono boosted of course) pops out? do you have a replay?
again I'm sorry for not reading/watching anything, just hope you could answer this specific question
You will not auto-lose with a void ray build vs. this. Depending on map size, your wall, how fast void rays spawn, etc. you will have more or less damage done to you by the roaches/lings. Worst case the Zerg kills your Sentries and a few drones before you clean it up. Depending on Micro/Skill of the two players, both should be able to transition to midgame relatively even. Expect the Zerg to have 3+ Queens tho.
I'll just keep posting my replays here so people can take a look at this strategy on a lower level around 600-700 Diamond too. Also this is the first replay here with the new 13/13 fast Speed build.
did he build an early immortal? if yes, I'll definitely download it when I'm home
Depending on Micro/Skill of the two players, both should be able to transition to midgame relatively even.
hmm...I always thought I'd have an advantage because I could throw down an expansion while he can't due to his inability of defending two bases against air without hydras; I never have problems with queens (though three queens in one base is pretty damn much), usually I lift up one with my phoenix, roast the second with my void ray, then when charged the second queen won't be a problem either; the void ray will take damage beyond shield, but shouldn't get orange or even red;
There are 2 things that make things work against Void Ray builds.
The first one is that, most of the time, you will be able to create the roach warren after killing, chasing the probe from your base. So you will have to guess if roach are comming or not.
Secondly, even if you see the roach warren and decide to go fast void ray, from my experience ( I have not played Top level players ) the protoss can only squeeze 2 sentry out ( and a few zealots) without delaying the void ray too much. So it is still possible to break through the ramp and to open a path for the speedlings. More over, as soon as you see the void ray, you can start pumping queens and transition safely to mid game as the protoss will not be able to pressure you too much. And as the robo tech will be late, Roach/Hydra will let you take control of the game.
It is of course not by any mean an auto win against void ray opening, but you still can do some damage and transition safely
I just thought you might be interested how such a void-ray build would look like when executed by a pro...since it's not "that" common at the pro-gamer-level
it's vs a FE but you can really see the strength of this build which lies in the fact that one void ray accompanied by phoenixes won't take too much damage by queens (phoenix-lift-up); of course close positions like here on scrap station are helpful too
did he build an early immortal? if yes, I'll definitely download it when I'm home
He was dead before a unit popped from Robo.
HAHAH best response ever!
I'm much more interested in ZvT replays though, especially vs. fast reapers. Anyone got some available? I haven't been able to ladder recently thanks to my internet connection :/
I been beating so many 900ish-1100ish terrans with this its surprising. I can fake an FE and go this and just bust his door and its GG. I even beat SeleCT with it and he was #1 on the ladder :D
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30.
So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess.
Suggestions?
I played the "current" build against a comp and seemed to have much better results than you. I did not use the "adapted" build. On the "current" build I have 5 roaches at 5:01 and I have speed at 5:22.
I am currently tryng to find out how to upload a replay so I can show you and prove it. Stay tuned.
Not sure if it matters much, but what map did you play on, and was it on faster speed? I played on Blistering Sand and when i squeeze in 2 Drones it will delay my Roaches.. so if you can replicate it on Blistering, let me see . I guess i could start speed a bit earlier, but usually i build the OL before i upgrade speed, might work the other way around.
Indeed, looks pretty smooth. Maybe the map can make a difference of 50-100 minerals over 4 minutes? I don't know... Although I already came to like those extra Lings
I tested it twice, I have enough minerals so long as I don't send out a scouting drone. As soon as I pull off a scout at around the time the pool goes down I get the problem you describe.
Does the spawn location matter? If your larva is close to the mineral field you can do the 'current' build and otherwise you have to cut 1 or 2 drones?
I think the spawn location makes a slight difference but not enough to throw the build right off like that, I tried on the bad spawn location (minerals above hatch) and I didn't have the waiting for minerals before roaches issue. I'm fairly certain the variation is whether you drone scout or use the overlord/initial lings only.
You need 375 minerals when the larvae pop, but when I tested "the current build" I could only make like 3 roaches + another in a few seconds. Unless I messed it up somehow, which is probably the case because I suck. I don't think I scouted either.
Newtis version worked better for me. But either way, the timing for both minerals and gas on the 5 roaches is really, really tight for the 13 extractor version.
When I use the "original" build, I have adapted it to not include ling speed, but instead of 5 roaches I pump out 7 when the warren pops (supply capping me for a few moments sadly). There are a few ups and downs with this. Downs probably being lack of ling speed which means the lings will not reach the opponent base in time, meaning if the roaches fail at their job I am behind. (Mostly I use that spawn to pump drones and not lings, too). The ups obviously being 2 extra roaches in the first wave, meaning even if he does have a marauder / stalker or two out, you can often force your way inside despite this. When this happens, I go for his economy rather than trying to kill his waves of reinforcement.
You guys have any comments? I have to say I have had major success with this strategy against a variety of playstyles, the only thing it really falls through against is early stalkers (4 warpgate pushers) and terrans going reaper harass 'cos they can so easily transition into marauders and roll over you. (Note that if you get into his base, snipe off the tech labs then hit his economy, gas SCV's first).
Also top zvz strategy: Block your own ramp with 4-5 roaches on hold. This negates banelings and speedlings from getting in, and only going for the 4-5 at the ramp often tricks your opponent into thinking "Oh, he's going for flying". With the amount of drones at the line at this point, you can keep spitting roaches for 2-3 injects, maybe spiced with a few lings. Then attack your opponent. This can result in one of 4 scenarios: 1. He was going pure ling. Either basetrade race, or you beat him in the open field and then proceeds to his base to win. 2. Banelings. You win, he has spent so much gas on them and they only really tickle roaches. 3. He's gone for mutas / hydralisks. If mutas, hurry up and put a lair tech + hydra den down, and smash as much of his base as you possibly can, aiming at the econ and the spire first. 4. He's gone pure roaches too. Now it just boils down to who has more roaches Tried this in a few mirrors, and 9 minutes in I was sitting at around 20 roaches. Of course this smells a bit more of "all in", since if this fails you will lack in economy. However, if you place overlords correctly you will also be able to see an expansion, in these cases I like to assault them only just after they finished morphing, so I actually get the kill and not just the cancel.
On August 26 2010 22:52 Thraundil wrote: Hey guys.
When I use the "original" build, I have adapted it to not include ling speed, but instead of 5 roaches I pump out 7 when the warren pops (supply capping me for a few moments sadly). There are a few ups and downs with this. Downs probably being lack of ling speed which means the lings will not reach the opponent base in time, meaning if the roaches fail at their job I am behind. (Mostly I use that spawn to pump drones and not lings, too). The ups obviously being 2 extra roaches in the first wave, meaning even if he does have a marauder / stalker or two out, you can often force your way inside despite this. When this happens, I go for his economy rather than trying to kill his waves of reinforcement.
You guys have any comments? I have to say I have had major success with this strategy against a variety of playstyles, the only thing it really falls through against is early stalkers (4 warpgate pushers) and terrans going reaper harass 'cos they can so easily transition into marauders and roll over you. (Note that if you get into his base, snipe off the tech labs then hit his economy, gas SCV's first).
Also top zvz strategy: Block your own ramp with 4-5 roaches on hold. This negates banelings and speedlings from getting in, and only going for the 4-5 at the ramp often tricks your opponent into thinking "Oh, he's going for flying". With the amount of drones at the line at this point, you can keep spitting roaches for 2-3 injects, maybe spiced with a few lings. Then attack your opponent. This can result in one of 4 scenarios: 1. He was going pure ling. Either basetrade race, or you beat him in the open field and then proceeds to his base to win. 2. Banelings. You win, he has spent so much gas on them and they only really tickle roaches. 3. He's gone for mutas / hydralisks. If mutas, hurry up and put a lair tech + hydra den down, and smash as much of his base as you possibly can, aiming at the econ and the spire first. 4. He's gone pure roaches too. Now it just boils down to who has more roaches Tried this in a few mirrors, and 9 minutes in I was sitting at around 20 roaches. Of course this smells a bit more of "all in", since if this fails you will lack in economy. However, if you place overlords correctly you will also be able to see an expansion, in these cases I like to assault them only just after they finished morphing, so I actually get the kill and not just the cancel.
Thanks for this. This was kind of what I was looking for. I botched earlier ZvZ matches with this because I got carried away with initial 5 roach push and got overwhelmed with Speedlings, when I should have been teching up. Ironically enough, my natural instinct is to tech to Mutas while I keep him out, but I suppose it's all situational.
Thanks for this. This was kind of what I was looking for. I botched earlier ZvZ matches with this because I got carried away with initial 5 roach push and got overwhelmed with Speedlings, when I should have been teching up. Ironically enough, my natural instinct is to tech to Mutas while I keep him out, but I suppose it's all situational.
Cut out my initial post to not mess up the thread totally.
Its by no means a great wisdom but the few zvz where I've been doing this it has kinda worked. 1-base muta doesnt work at all, gonig 2-base muta exposes you greatly to roaches, blings, speedlings etc. and rushing for hydralisks will just make your opponent spam out a ton of speedlings and cave in with spine crawlers while harassing you, until he can get a critical mass of mutalisks at which point no amount of hydras really does it for you due to the splash damage of mutalisks, and the difficulty level of actually protecting all your drones from hit-and-runs. (spore crawlers of course but getting up enough fast enough might not be possible).
Thraundil, my muta techs have usually resulted in base trades. Kind of annoying and I tend to lose. So wait, what're you proposing for ZvZ based on your last post? (ZvZ with 5RR is problematic for me right now...still trying to wrap my head around it.) Block off choke with Roaches (which is great), then what? Everything you described seems to be a lose/lose situation.
Newti, that'd be nice. I need to get not mess up my build when opening up. Ugh, posted a replay but I think I botched it frequently. I just noticed the refined builds, so I'll give those a shot.
Yea I also mess up the build a lot xD I only recently switched from 10 to 9 Overlord and sometimes i get a 10th drone out of habbit and it throws me off xD Or I forget the Drone after 9 Ovie. There is a lot of room to mess up this build and it is very unforgiving since the timing is so tight. Although when going with the "delay two drones" build I not only have a little room for error, but I also get to decide to pump an additional 4 Lings. This is nice because with the first 2 Lings you will see the general build of your opponent and when you know you have a good chance to end it right away versus a specific build (like 2 gate, Hellions, Reaper), those 4 Lings can make a difference. If you are up against a Stargate or Marauder build you can always just make those 2 Larva Drones.
Newti, I tend to do 9 Ovie, and scout with 10 drone. And yeah, I do agree with getting this down solid. Timing is pretty crucial, and since the build seems to be constantly evolving/refined, my sequences tend to get messed up because it'll change on me ever so slightly. Not that I don't appreciate all this.
Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30.
So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen
As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess.
Suggestions?
I find it's gas I'm waiting for, not minerals, when the larvae spawn. The roach warren finishes first, then the larvae, whereupon I'm at about 90-100 gas, having gone 13p13e and spent the first 100 on ling speed.
EDIT: Is this likely to be because I'm not sending out a scouting drone, do you think?
(Got 5 or so more replays, just say if you want to see more. I can also edit them all into one post.)
Hi Newt,
i watched your replays and first of all i want to say thanks for providing them. Your execution of the initial build is quite good, however, you dont scout at all which was the concern of some of the ppl (if you do, will you have enough minerals?). Then your opponents: The guy on delta quadrant was terrible, he saw the roach warren, didnt make units most of the time, he had 2 reapers made when you had 5 roaches and 14 lings (but he had 400gas!! ). Funny however that ppl like him are Diamond
The guy in Scrapstation doesnt play that bad, he makes one big mistake, in that he doesnt suspect anything after he bunkers your natural and then doesnt scan your base, which imo is a must do. He couldnt really have made many marauders in the meantime, but this guy would probably also have lost against the regular baneling bust due to the lack of scouting
3rd game on Steppes: Again the guy bunkers your natural (btw thats where your 2 lings should go first, kill the scv there, might even pull a drone to make him think you are trying to expand!) Again your opponent is stupid enough to not scan or scout your base, even though youre not even TRYING to expand. This btw is the first game you are actually sending a drone to expand with your roaches, and its also the one where you cant do it, resulting in you not putting down your expansion in all 3 games I guess he also could have responded better to your attack, it seemed pretty close with his barrack/factory wallin, but still, well executed!
Yea I often look at my minerals and think, damn i want to expand.. but to fight with Roaches and Speedlings, two completely different units that require optimal positioning and individual microing due to their speeds is too taxing for my apm. I hope once I get more familiar with it I will be able to expand simultanously and even put the drones back in gas after a while. Also you are right, I should definitely fake an expansion. Just sending 1 drone and 2 lings to the bunker to make him think I want to expand can actually make him feel to safe and therefore lose.
Thanks a lot for the comments, much, much appreciated!
To the not scouting.. I think there is no scoutable build that would make me switch strategy before the point where I am locked in (Roach Warren down). Sure there are worse and better situations but the only hard hard counter (Mass Marauder) is not scoutable as it could very well be reapers coming out of that rax. Everything else will not put me far behind and still make 5RR decent (as least from what I have encoutered so far).
On August 27 2010 00:34 RampancyTW wrote: How are you guys ending up short on gas with the 13pool/13gas build? You should end up with a surplus
I've been going 15gas because you can get a perfectly timed 128 gas right when the RW pops
ditto for minerals I always have minerals in excess even with a scout
if you're having problems you're likely not executing the build properly
We are researching Ling Speed with our first 100 gas. With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches). Now with an earlier Extractor we obviously end up with less minerals. Depending on if you scout, what map and spwan position you play on and if you do minor mistakes you will be a few minarals short. Executing everything perfect with no scouting will usually work tho.
The reason this build is superior to 15 Gas in my opinion is that you get Ling Speed 1 Minute and 20 Seconds (!!) earlier while having the exact same timing on the Roaches. Downside being you can't expand straight away when moving out; you have to delay that a bit (not too much).
The initial rush hits MUCH MUCH harder with little to no tradeoff.
Newti: Not scouting makes the opponent always careful of cheese as far as i know. Also terrans can be harrasses wonderfully with that scouting drone, its the best time of the game imo Ive won a game once with my scouting drone having 3 kills and having denied the techlab spot for the rax, the opponent lifted it up, so my speedlings ran in for the gg :D was against 730points diamond terra
On August 27 2010 00:42 MalaysianMafia wrote: Someone mentioned that the only thing this doesn't hold up to is a cannon turtle....
How about simply a cannon wall at ramp? Can 5 roaches take out 2 cannons? 3? (I'm at work, can't test)
5 Roaches will have a lot of problem killing 2 or even 3 cannons on top of a ramp. What I would do when encountering this is: Putting 3 back in gas, build 2nd Extractor, fast tech to lair while keep pumping Roaches. Throw down Nydus when T2 is ready and backdoor the protoss. I dont think there is any chance to hold against this unless you scout the nydus before its completed.
On August 27 2010 00:44 Viruuus wrote: Newti: Not scouting makes the opponent always careful of cheese as far as i know. Also terrans can be harrasses wonderfully with that scouting drone, its the best time of the game imo Ive won a game once with my scouting drone having 3 kills and having denied the techlab spot for the rax, the opponent lifted it up, so my speedlings ran in for the gg :D was against 730points diamond terra
Haha you are right :D I will try to work in a scout around 13 Supply. Useful against terran (also because you can't float the ovie over their barracks. Against Toss tho you can park the overlord over their gateways and be safe . 2 Gate Proxy is hard to hold off but on maps where it is popular I will usualy scout for it.
With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches).
Incidentally, the OP still says to begin the roach warren when the queen is 50% done. When I do that, the RW pops quite a while before the larvae and especially the gas are ready. I' going to try delaying until 75%, and even trying for an extra drone / pair of lings meanwhile. I'll let you know if it sucks or not
On August 27 2010 00:34 RampancyTW wrote: How are you guys ending up short on gas with the 13pool/13gas build? You should end up with a surplus
I've been going 15gas because you can get a perfectly timed 128 gas right when the RW pops
ditto for minerals I always have minerals in excess even with a scout
if you're having problems you're likely not executing the build properly
We are researching Ling Speed with our first 100 gas. With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches). Now with an earlier Extractor we obviously end up with less minerals. Depending on if you scout, what map and spwan position you play on and if you do minor mistakes you will be a few minarals short. Executing everything perfect with no scouting will usually work tho.
The reason this build is superior to 15 Gas in my opinion is that you get Ling Speed 1 Minute and 20 Seconds (!!) earlier while having the exact same timing on the Roaches. Downside being you can't expand straight away when moving out; you have to delay that a bit (not too much).
The initial rush hits MUCH MUCH harder with little to no tradeoff.
I'm getting ling speed with my first 100 gas too, you shouldn't be having this problem
if there's anything more than a 5 second delay after the RW pops you did something seriously wrong, not just mildly
13 extractor will net you at least 30-40 gas over by the time RW pops if you don't pull off gas after 128, which is why i'm back to the 15 gas
i have to go back and retest but the speed should still pop using the "normal" build when the first round of reinforcing lings is just starting towards the enemy base
I just did some more testing myself, and when you take the 13th built drone to scout, it will be working just perfectly on all the timings. The only thing that is a little bit delayed is the expansion, but you can put it down right when the roaches are out of your base (else you can put it down shortly after they spawn, thats like 10 seconds). Also i got exactly 125 gas with this when the roachwarren pops, without the scout you might have the RW a little earlier...
When doing this, sometimes I arrive at the terran/protoss base with Stalkers/Maurauders at the ramp (2-3). My roaches get squished on narrower ramps, so my question is:
1. Do you backoff at this point? Or do you still go up.
2. Do you target breaking down the wall, or killing the units attacking you (despite the fact that your roaches may not kill them fast enough).
Also do you normally make your next injections all zerglings to follow up? Or only if the wall breaks.
On August 27 2010 01:19 edwin23 wrote: When doing this, sometimes I arrive at the terran/protoss base with Stalkers/Maurauders at the ramp (2-3). My roaches get squished on narrower ramps, so my question is:
1. Do you backoff at this point? Or do you still go up.
2. Do you target breaking down the wall, or killing the units attacking you (despite the fact that your roaches may not kill them fast enough).
Also do you normally make your next injections all zerglings to follow up? Or only if the wall breaks.
Thanks
1) Commit. They will not have enough to kill your roaches before you get through the wall. Worst case scenario is that you only have 2 roaches left when the wall falls. But 2 Roaches and 10-12 speedlings will win against their 3-4 stalkers/marauders.
2) Target the wall (Supply Depot or Zealots). If it is zealots then move/target micro them down to minimize hits taken, they die in 2 volleys from 5 roaches.
3) The wall always breaks. I've never had it not break, so yes, followup is always speedlings.
One thing a lot of people have problems with is that they tell the roaches to attack the wall from the bottom of the ramp. DON'T DO THIS! You will only get 2, MAYBE 3 roaches attacking the wall. You must Micro your roaches up the ramp, then attack so all 5 are hitting it. Maybe so close that 1-2 of your roaches are actually meleeing the depot.
When you get through, roaches are used to kill marines/zealots and hellions. Speedlings go after marauders/stalkers. In my experience, a bunker must be built for terran to defend it and cannons must be built for toss to defend it. You can scout the cannons from toss, but a bunker is a little more difficult to scout. If there is a bunker, just run by it and attack SCVs.
Here's a replay ZvT. The T goes fast tank, which repels my rush pretty well. I didn't pull off the build order perfectly (13p 13e, but I forgot to get speed) and the rush mostly failed. However, this is more evidence that this rush is NOT all in, because I recovered just fine from a failed attack.
I'm high plat (17-7, assume I will be in diamond once I play more) and my opponent has around 550 points in Diamond IIRC
Just wanted to let you know that I now broke 700 Diamond for the first time; largely thanks to this strategy. Only lost 2 out of my last 10 games and more than half of those 10 games were 5RR.
All-Around excellent build that has a very, very high chance to end the game in the first 7-8 Minutes.
I say, lets abuse this until T&P are prepared for it
Watched all of your replays newti, and (no slight on you) the opponents were really bad :< in more than half the replays they finished with like 300+ gas. I guess building a random bunker at zergs natural can actually win some games lol.
It's a really great build, in your order you say 2 drones after roaches (the ones you cut before) but in all the replays were built lings instead. Any thoughts on this? The 4 extra lings do seem useful, so maybe you should edit your order again :D. Would love to see some failed rushes into transitions, that will probably show better opposition as well.
On August 27 2010 03:31 f0rk wrote: Watched all of your replays newti, and (no slight on you) the opponents were really bad :< in more than half the replays they finished with like 300+ gas. I guess building a random bunker at zergs natural can actually win some games lol.
It's a really great build, in your order you say 2 drones after roaches (the ones you cut before) but in all the replays were built lings instead. Any thoughts on this? The 4 extra lings do seem useful, so maybe you should edit your order again :D. Would love to see some failed rushes into transitions, that will probably show better opposition as well.
I would love to provide you with failed rushes into transition. But to be honest; I only lost one single game out of over 10 games today where I applied this strategy. It was against Protoss on Scrap Station where he did a nice wall off and stalled long enough with sentries to get 2 more stalkers out and then crushed me with 4-gate .
While the opponents may seem bad, this is (surprisingly?) all above 600 Diamond... I don't know if I keep getting lucky with my opponents or if this rush throws them off guard and they panic, not knowing how to react exactly since I don't think many Zergs know about this or actually use it in high level games. *shrug*
Concerning the Ling vs. delayed Drone i'll quote myself from an earlier post:
When going with the "delay two drones" build I not only have a little room for error, but I also get to decide to pump an additional 4 Lings. This is nice because with the first 2 Lings you will see the general build of your opponent and when you know you have a good chance to end it right away versus a specific build (like 2 gate, Hellions, Reaper), those 4 Lings can make a difference. If you are up against a Stargate or Marauder build you can always just make those 2 Larva into Drones.
So yes, I will probably edit the wiki entry again. Explaining when and why to get Lings or Drones.
On August 27 2010 00:02 xtcz wrote: Thraundil, my muta techs have usually resulted in base trades. Kind of annoying and I tend to lose. So wait, what're you proposing for ZvZ based on your last post? (ZvZ with 5RR is problematic for me right now...still trying to wrap my head around it.) Block off choke with Roaches (which is great), then what? Everything you described seems to be a lose/lose situation.
Newti, that'd be nice. I need to get not mess up my build when opening up. Ugh, posted a replay but I think I botched it frequently. I just noticed the refined builds, so I'll give those a shot.
Make a sort of 5RR, blocking your ramp with roaches (you only need 3 roaches to ward off the early attacks and maybe add on another 2 or 3 soon after that. Also make 6 lings to ward off your opponents 6 standard ling scouts / scout of your own with them). . Then, saturate your main slowly while making only roaches. (send a few scoutlings to your opps base and keep your own roaches out of sight from the ramp, apart from the blockers). If opponent is going for mutas, you a-move your roach ball and thats a win right there. If your opponent has roaches of his own, go either mutas or hydralisks or tech roach speed / armor. If your opponent expands (your overlords should monitor this), scout his forces out. If he has many roaches, expand yourself, moving your roach ball down to protect the expo, and tech upgrades or hydras or mutas. An overseer is also important to remember - both for those nifty little changelings, but also to not get burrow-harassed.
Can post a few replays some time if I can find them / next time I play a zvz.
Ohhh this build would be so scary if roachling was implemented. I look forward to putting this to use, im an overly agressive player and cant stand letting opponents get away with walling>expo>turtle>push out midgame.
Ppl will just learn to watch if you really went Fe and switch reapers for mara asap if this build becomes more common making this weaker. Good strategy tho in spite of the guy who think how skilled he is and wrote lots of crap in those replays.
WIth 13 pool and 15 OL i cant get lingspeed befor roaches, if i do, i cant get 5 roaches out because of missing gas. 13 pool and 13 gas makes no sense at all, thats more gas than i need, and it cuts my mins, and delays the expo you want to throw down after/during your push and your zerglings to keep up the pressure.
Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly.
13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt
I don't think I've faced this yet as Terran, but I usually only wall in with depots against Zerg FE. Otherwise its Rax + Fact to be safe vs. BLing Bust. Coincidentally this would make me immune to 5RR, yes? Or at least, immune to the threat of immediate death...
To be safe you either need bunkers or an extra Marauder. Also you cant me sure the Zerg doesn't FE when he kills your scv @ exe with 2 lings and a drone... sure, you can scan but..
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I saw this and had to try it out a few times, and this build benefits an incredible amount (especially against protoss) from a gas steal from the scouting drone. 1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there.
Hi everybody. I'm a begginer zerg player currently in bronze league (thou two of the coming games are against gold league players) and I've been having great fun with the 5 Roach Rush. Fistdantilus, thanks a lot! I'm using the original (13-15) build in these games, seeing the new one now I'll try it out tommrow.
On August 27 2010 07:28 etceteraetcetera wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I saw this and had to try it out a few times, and this build benefits an incredible amount (especially against protoss) from a gas steal from the scouting drone. 1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there.
I love you
in all seriousness that's a pretty damn good point, tech rushes won't be viable and it will hamper them all through the early game giving zerg all the time it needs to drone up
I'm getting ling speed with my first 100 gas too, you shouldn't be having this problem
if there's anything more than a 5 second delay after the RW pops you did something seriously wrong, not just mildly
13 extractor will net you at least 30-40 gas over by the time RW pops if you don't pull off gas after 128, which is why i'm back to the 15 gas
i have to go back and retest but the speed should still pop using the "normal" build when the first round of reinforcing lings is just starting towards the enemy base
Ok, I've spent a couple of hours testing this vs very easy AI to be sure of no interruptions, and here's what I found:
13p 13e with early ling speed:
I'm slightly gas-capped when the larvae spawn. Last roach pops at 5:12 (other four slightly earlier), ling speed at 5:32 and I'm able to drop a hatchery at 5:20 with 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords.
13p 12e with early ling speed:
Essentially identical to 13p13e except the hatchery is delayed 4 seconds. However, the roaches are now mineral capped instead of gas capped, so I went back and tried cutting the drone after the queen spawns:
13p 12e with early ling speed and cutting the post-queen drone until after the roaches start:
Roaches all pop at 5:07, speed at 5:27, hatch goes down at 5:29 with 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords.
13p 15e with early ling speed:
I'm back to waiting for gas when the larvae spawn. Roaches spawn at 5:22, ling speed at 5:36. I'm able to drop a hatchery at 5:18 with the same 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords.
Note: because I'm awful I didn't bother taking drones off gas after making roaches. If I had, the hatchery times would have been a little earlier (13p12e benefiting the most, 13p15e the least).
In summary: I was able to shave 5 seconds off the 13p13e roach spawn time by going 13p12e, at the expense of expanding 9 seconds later. Even 13p13e was 10 seconds faster to roaches and 5 seconds faster to ling speed than 13p15e, for essentially no penalty to dropping your expansion.
On August 27 2010 07:28 etceteraetcetera wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I saw this and had to try it out a few times, and this build benefits an incredible amount (especially against protoss) from a gas steal from the scouting drone. 1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there.
You, sir, get a gold star. This seems amazing vs Protoss.
the 13p 15e i'm doing is pretty close to a 14e (VERY immediately after 15) and assuming you time everything else right you WILL have just barely enough gas when the larva and RW pop
Because i choose not to cut drones/make them later my zling speed is a little bit delayed but tbh it makes almost no difference on the overall timing because super early slings aren't the focus of the build, and again the (barely) 15gas coincides nicely with my mineral/gas timing for speed
what i'm doing will net you more minerals for early investment which isn't a huge deal but i like having the extra little boost
edit: in a nutshell i like having 10 slings show up 10 seconds later than 6 slings would show up to reinforce doing 13/13 or 13/12
edit2: and if the timing isn't quite working out for you going 14 gas will be roughly the same. which is probably what i'll settle to because sometimes getting the timing right is a pain in the ass
one way or another the 13/13 shouldn't be delaying your roaches at all
I saw somebody do this to me today, and the sad part is that even though I saw it right as it left his base, recognized it as a 5 roach rush, and tried to prepare for it, I still couldn't stop it when it arrived (I was playing toss).
Anyway, I was thinking about a way to counter this as toss once you see it coming, and it occurred to me that building stalkers while blocking off your ramp completely (with an extra pylon or something) could give the stalkers an opportunity to pick at the roaches a little bit while they try to get through your defensive wall. More pylons and other buildings could be constructed to buy extra time (kind of like fighting off a baneling bust). Also, a sentry could help buy some time.
On August 27 2010 08:58 RampancyTW wrote: the 13p 15e i'm doing is pretty close to a 14e (VERY immediately after 15) and assuming you time everything else right you WILL have just barely enough gas when the larva and RW pop
Hmm.
Here's the thing: my drones harvest gas at the same rate as yours, and we both need the same amount: 225. If we both have enough minerals and larvae and supply to be able to hit RRRRR the instant our gas hits 125 (after having spent the first 100 on ling speed), and I started harvesting gas three drones before you, I'm going to get my roaches that much sooner, right?
Now, you're saying you just barely have enough gas when the RW and larvae pop. Since it's flat-out impossible for 15e to get 225 gas earlier than 12e, the only explanation is that your RW and larvae are later.
I'm open to the idea that mine is a false optimisation. After all, 13p15e lets you expand 10 seconds sooner. If you have spare larvae, that might translate to four extra lings instead. On the other hand your ling speed is delayed, so my slightly later reinforcements might still get there on time
Alternatively, I can immediately invest those minerals into drones for a compounding edge as the game goes on
Unless you're roaching off of the first round of queen larva, what you're talking about doesn't apply. It doesn't matter how quickly you get 225 gas: it only matters that after speed you have 125 leftover by the time the 2nd round of larva pops.
My larva and RW are not any later than yours, because we're getting queens at the same time and that dictates larva timing, and having a roach warren up earlier isn't going to help you if you don't have the larva to produce with it. I have both the necessary gas and the RW up by the time round 2 of larva pops which is all that matters (and again, my delays in the timing will net me more minerals without delaying the first batch of roaches)
edit: just notice nodq's post. we're doing the the same thing pretty much, for the same reasons
Is this good against 2 gate PROXY rush (i hate proxy lol)
against muta rush
against 6pool
I didn't saw your replay, but can you tell me if you scout his base or losing a worker to scout is a too big loss for your income? (for your perfect build order i mean)
On August 27 2010 05:35 nodq wrote: WIth 13 pool and 15 OL i cant get lingspeed befor roaches, if i do, i cant get 5 roaches out because of missing gas. 13 pool and 13 gas makes no sense at all, thats more gas than i need, and it cuts my mins, and delays the expo you want to throw down after/during your push and your zerglings to keep up the pressure.
Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly.
13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt
you dont mention in this BO when you throw down the RW?
also in response to the guy above, i dont think build was designed for ZvZ.
On August 27 2010 10:04 RampancyTW wrote:Unless you're roaching off of the first round of queen larva, what you're talking about doesn't apply.
But I AM roaching off the first round of larvae That's the build...
...although now I come to look at the OP again, that's not as clear as it used to be when it was 13p15e. It now says 'reinject' before you make roaches, but that's purely because you'll be waiting on gas for a couple of seconds after the first round of larvae spawn (unless you go 13p12e). You don't wait for the second round of larvae before getting roaches.
Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
I've tried this build a few times, and in my experience it's only worth using against Protoss and Zerg. Terran simply will either have a decent number of Marines to hold his wall, or a single bunker to help secure it, and a single Marauder will be an even bigger red flag.
The only Terran build it seems to beat is 1/1/1, but I hardly run into that anymore.
Against Protoss, however, it totally destroys. 2 gate or no, it's quite a powerful opener. And against Zerg it will stop any early Baneling shenanigans.
This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even.
On August 27 2010 11:29 Tergeron wrote: This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even.
it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it.
finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of.
especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door.
To be safe you either need bunkers or an extra Marauder. Also you cant me sure the Zerg doesn't FE when he kills your scv @ exe with 2 lings and a drone... sure, you can scan but..
I see. My practice partner and I tried this several times today, making sure Terran never cheated by doing stuff out of the ordinary until he actually scouted that something was up (and not scouting differently than normal either). Typically the first hellion would find the Roaches headed to the Terran base, Terran would pull 5 SCVs to build a bunker and repair the wall (used 2 depot 1 rax). Terran held the line each time.
This build does however seem wicked good vs Protoss, especially with that gas steal.
On August 27 2010 11:29 Tergeron wrote: This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even.
it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it.
finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of.
especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door.
I wouldn't really agree that merely seeing the order of the gas and pool guarantees you knowledge of the Zerg build. The two orders are certainly optimal for different things, but all in all they are only different by 1-2 Drones. Once the scout is chased away Zerg can always choose to switch to the technically less efficient strategy, but it will still work if his opponent read too much into the order that he scouted. For example if Terran thinks he scouts lings, he will believe himself safe behind the wall and might skimp Marines. If the Zerg goes Roaches then yes they will arrive a few seconds later than they would in an optimized Roach order, but if they arrive and Terran only has ~2 Marines, its gg.
I play toss and i can see how a well played 1gate stargate could wreck this, Fast gas/no expand screams 1base muta or a roach push to me and i respond with VRs and follow up with phoenixes or more VRs depending on what happens. Responding with a second queen when you see a stargate will save you if that happens.
That being said, i think this still could kill someone who is attempting to harass or be cheesy. 2gate rushes, hellions, or reapers would get owned by this hardcore in good hands. It also seems to hit at a time where people going 4gate or some other timing push have very few units. I offrace zerg so i will check this out more.
I have tried this twice against Very Hard ai. I'm just curious why this build doesn't work against extreme aggression. First game (timing wasn't perfect, but still), I went against a non-wall 2 gate core , and encountered 5 zealots, 2 stalkers. Yeah, wasn't going to break through that. Second game (timing was a lot better, followed the order step by step), played against a terran (haven't looked at replay exactly), but ran into mass rines, believe it was like ~10-12 rines. Both games were on blistering, so I don't know what's going on.
Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...
(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun)
I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong...
(Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays)
I did this once vs a 4gate on scrapstation, and i faced 3 zealot and a stalker at the xelnaga tower, as he moved to meet me there. After i killed off his zealots and stalker, i think i lost 1, or maybe just low health on them, and by the time I got to the ramp, 2 sentries and forcefield blocked ramp. Now I don't think I gas stole that game, so that might have helped, but if a P sees this, they can slow down your roaches with zealots before you get to their door. At least on scrap station. Then I was pushed back and lost to 4gate stalker sentry.
Other than that game, the 5RR still performs really well, just some maps, and some players know how to respond very well to it.
I've been trying out this build since yesterday and I must say.... I LOVEEEE the fact that this build gives zerg early threat against his opposition!
However, I've had trouble pulling this strategy off on Steppes of War against protoss players who 2-gate in front of their natural expansion. By the time their first zealot + a probe gets to your base for aggression, you'll have your 2 zerglings, queen in production, and roach warren in production. This means that:
1) Drones are going to either get hurt or pulled off of mining, delaying your roaches from coming out 2) Your roaches (however many you end up getting due to resource constrictions) will come out when the protoss player already has 3-4 zealots in your base 3) When you do fight off the zealot aggression, he'll probably have a wall and a cannon behind it, usually just out of range of your roaches =/ 4) Unless you decide to skip the zerglings that usually follow the 5 roach attack, you will be behind in harvester count
So I was wondering if there are any replays around as to how you can fend off the early 2gate wall-off specifically on the map steppes of war. I did watch most of the replays including the Protoss FE on steppes of war (which was a bad example because the protoss player didn't block off his wall and just let your roaches run in!), but maybe I missed it , maybe I didn't. Either way, what are your tips?
@ Zibitee: I think maybe delaying the roach warren a tad to get a spine crawler would be worth it. If they attack with 1-2 zealots, it can hold them at bay, until they get about 5 zealots, when they usualy push back in, the roaches i think would be finishing then? Not certain.
On August 27 2010 13:19 EliteAzn wrote: I have tried this twice against Very Hard ai. I'm just curious why this build doesn't work against extreme aggression. First game (timing wasn't perfect, but still), I went against a non-wall 2 gate core , and encountered 5 zealots, 2 stalkers. Yeah, wasn't going to break through that. Second game (timing was a lot better, followed the order step by step), played against a terran (haven't looked at replay exactly), but ran into mass rines, believe it was like ~10-12 rines. Both games were on blistering, so I don't know what's going on.
Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...
(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun)
I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong...
(Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays)
Very Hard AI gets a resource bonus of +1 each, thats why you are failing.
On August 27 2010 13:19 EliteAzn wrote: I have tried this twice against Very Hard ai. I'm just curious why this build doesn't work against extreme aggression. First game (timing wasn't perfect, but still), I went against a non-wall 2 gate core , and encountered 5 zealots, 2 stalkers. Yeah, wasn't going to break through that. Second game (timing was a lot better, followed the order step by step), played against a terran (haven't looked at replay exactly), but ran into mass rines, believe it was like ~10-12 rines. Both games were on blistering, so I don't know what's going on.
Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...
(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun)
I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong...
(Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays)
Very Hard AI gets a resource bonus of +1 each, thats why you are failing.
Are you sure you're not mistaking Very hard with Insane? Or is Insane 2+?
On August 27 2010 13:19 EliteAzn wrote: I have tried this twice against Very Hard ai. I'm just curious why this build doesn't work against extreme aggression. First game (timing wasn't perfect, but still), I went against a non-wall 2 gate core , and encountered 5 zealots, 2 stalkers. Yeah, wasn't going to break through that. Second game (timing was a lot better, followed the order step by step), played against a terran (haven't looked at replay exactly), but ran into mass rines, believe it was like ~10-12 rines. Both games were on blistering, so I don't know what's going on.
Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...
(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun)
I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong...
(Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays)
Very Hard AI gets a resource bonus of +1 each, thats why you are failing.
Are you sure you're not mistaking Very hard with Insane? Or is Insane 2+?
I really like this build vs T, but not so much vs P. I've been beating hellion/reaper openings easily with this build, but its true that a marauder opening will fuck this up if you rush. I would only consider this build vs P if they go 2gate and don't get an early cybercore, because most toss usually transition to stalkers after their first 5 zealots or so with 2 gate.
On August 27 2010 13:52 P00RKID wrote: @ Zibitee: I think maybe delaying the roach warren a tad to get a spine crawler would be worth it. If they attack with 1-2 zealots, it can hold them at bay, until they get about 5 zealots, when they usualy push back in, the roaches i think would be finishing then? Not certain.
Yeah, that would be the proper response. I guess planting a spine crawler when I see two forward gateways would be a good idea. Anyone else have input?
On August 27 2010 13:52 P00RKID wrote: @ Zibitee: I think maybe delaying the roach warren a tad to get a spine crawler would be worth it. If they attack with 1-2 zealots, it can hold them at bay, until they get about 5 zealots, when they usualy push back in, the roaches i think would be finishing then? Not certain.
Yeah, that would be the proper response. I guess planting a spine crawler when I see two forward gateways would be a good idea. Anyone else have input?
If you plant a spine crawler, the timing of the build is completely messed up, which is why it succeeds in the first place.
@woolly: But it doesn't succeed when the roaches are not out yet, and you have zealots killing drones.
With the 5RR, when the first 5 roaches pop, you generally have about 75-100ish gas built up to use on ling speed. If you scout the forward 2gate (not proxy but by the expo) then you can afford to delay ling speed by taking drones out of gas (or not putting them in yet, or delaying extractor, depends on scout timing). With the extra minerals, you build the spine crawler, put drones back on gas, and should still have the 5 roaches out at the normal time, with the only difference being that you won't have ling speed started right after they spawn out.
My suggestion if the build works out is continuing roach production if you see them build up zealots on 2gate, like 5+ zlots. After you reinforce 5roaches with about 3-4 more roaches, ling speed and lings follow through, or drone up depending on the situation.
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
imo this build only abuses the fact that Ps and Ts are used to defensive zerg play except for banenling busts.
as soon as they adapt and just build few units earlier instead of hardcore teching they'll be totally fine.
problem versus P are sentries. even with gas steal there can be 1-2 out when u arrive and that gives enough time for him to hold it off. and a 4 followed 4 gate will crush you probably.
Versus Terrans it only works when they feal safe and tech.. what they pretty much do all the time and that is why everyone here starts to love the build. as soon as they adapt and build a rauder+ bunker versus zerg as they do versus P it all will be back to normal.
5RR just abuses our beloved metagame. the fact that Zergs haven't been aggressive in the early game lately.
that said. i play the 7RR which goes something like this + Show Spoiler +
14 pool 16 gas 15 ovi 16 queen 4 lings 20 drone kill scout 21 Roach warren when scout is dead 20drone 21ovi.
some where inbetween here either throw expo or wait till after Roachwarren
now save up larvas. u'll have 3 when larva inject popps and enough money to build 7 roaches.
injected larva will poop right after the RW did. you should even have enough money to throw in an expo while waiting for larvas. if you aint sure just wait till you've build the 7 roaches and then expand.
edit: hatch before roaches youll have to wait for 2 roaches, the last popping 5:22 game time. without it all pop 5:12-5:15
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
"On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the top location, get the bottom gas first. On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the bottom location, get the top gas first."
It's confusing why people are getting such varied results with the same exact build. But I think either way, with gas on 15 you can't get ling speed until after the roaches.
"On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the top location, get the bottom gas first. On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the bottom location, get the top gas first."
It's confusing why people are getting such varied results with the same exact build. But I think either way, with gas on 15 you can't get ling speed until after the roaches.
I'm going to take another crack at it at lunchtime, getting the right-hand gas instead of the top, see what difference that makes. I can't see it making 15 seconds difference, but I'll give it a shot.
On August 27 2010 18:50 Umpteen wrote: I'm going to take another crack at it at lunchtime, getting the right-hand gas instead of the top, see what difference that makes. I can't see it making 15 seconds difference, but I'll give it a shot.
Yeah I doubt it's going to make up the difference between the 13 extractor and the 15 extractor, but it might make up the difference between your 12 extractor and the 13. Meaning you could get it on 13 if you choose the right-hand gas, as opposed to your 12 from the top gas.
And it might explain why some people have gas surpluses but others are slightly short, depending on the map, spawn point and gas chosen. I've not tested it though; just a thought.
I read a lot of hate in this thread OP, but I really like this build and im going to give it a shot... I like how its sort of economically safe and you still have a few options if the shit hits the fan.
This game is vs. Terran. He goes reaper Harass and I counter with 5RR. His bunker at the ramp holds off the 5RR (Bunker with 2-3 Reaper >>> Lings) and he has 2 Starports with tech lab running. I transition to Mutas while I get wrecked by cloaked Banshees and the game goes on for quite a while (I think he was a pretty bad player despite his 800 Diamond Rating): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65588-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
Here is a replay that showcases how not-all-in this build is. The rush fails against a 5-Rax-Reaper Terran (900 pts) bacuse he immediately stops reaper production and goes for marauder; but it negates all his harass and forces him into Bio play. I then Transition into Muta/Ling/Bling to counter Bio and go macro mode. The game goes on for almost 30 Minutes with some nice TvZ midgame action. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65600-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
By the way, i did run in trouble today when a protoss contained me with 2 pylons and a cannon. While I could break the contain, the toss had enough forces + a cannon at home to defend. I felt like I was significantly behind after this.
On August 27 2010 05:35 nodq wrote: WIth 13 pool and 15 OL i cant get lingspeed befor roaches, if i do, i cant get 5 roaches out because of missing gas. 13 pool and 13 gas makes no sense at all, thats more gas than i need, and it cuts my mins, and delays the expo you want to throw down after/during your push and your zerglings to keep up the pressure.
Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly.
13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt
you dont mention in this BO when you throw down the RW?
also in response to the guy above, i dont think build was designed for ZvZ.
yeh ofc latest when queen is half done, put down RW. mostly around 19-20 supply. depends how the scout is moving in your base. better dealy the RW for some seconds than let the scout see that you build it.
just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
On August 27 2010 22:34 NeKoBaKa wrote: just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
I never faced straight forge FE with this but I had a couple forge contain matches (2 pylon + cannon @ ramp). This build doesn't do best against any cannon build. If the protoss plays perfect in terms of cannon placement and walling, there is little you can do. So what I do is getting my 2nd up, drone for a bit and tech to t2 (keep your initial 5 roaches alive!!). I keep building Roaches while I do that and once I hit t2 I build a nydus and funnel around 15-20 Roaches + as many speedlings as I can into his main. I have yet to see a protoss come back from this (even if they go delayed Void Rays their main and a lot of drones go down).
On August 27 2010 22:34 NeKoBaKa wrote: just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
I never faced straight forge FE with this but I had a couple forge contain matches (2 pylon + cannon @ ramp). This build doesn't do best against any cannon build. If the protoss plays perfect in terms of cannon placement and walling, there is little you can do. So what I do is getting my 2nd up, drone for a bit and tech to t2 (keep your initial 5 roaches alive!!). I keep building Roaches while I do that and once I hit t2 I build a nydus and funnel around 15-20 Roaches + as many speedlings as I can into his main. I have yet to see a protoss come back from this (even if they go delayed Void Rays their main and a lot of drones go down).
Thanks for the quick reply Newti. I normally like to play a macro oriented game with an early expansion and a defensive / reactant type of early game. Playing a build like this will definitely help with variety in my play style.
Played around with the gas steal idea in YABOT, but I can't make it work: the build is just too tight on 13/13. Newti's replays show pretty much what you have to do to keep the timings correct: skip drones and the expansion. I'm just not willing to do that to delay his gas for 30s, even if it does make the rush stronger.
It works on the old 13/15 (getting ling speed after roaches), but I'm not thrilled with that either.
Ive used the 13/13 build vs an 800 diamond Terran who i think was playing pretty well, he scouted it, reacted good etc. Also in battles he has 200ish APM with seems to be ok imo, and his micro was existent at least.
another 800 points Diamond, this time protoss who is making pylong/cannons at my door, but its blistering sands...
On August 27 2010 11:29 Tergeron wrote: This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even.
it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it.
finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of.
especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door.
The unit mix is perfect enough to counter 4 gate and holds off 2 gate on short rush distance maps and crushes it on maps with a long rush distance, Stargate builds basically rely on you doing damage against a zerg player, which is hard to accomplish when they fit in extra queens, gas steals only make it weaker.
Any protoss can hold his ramp with a cannon or two and some sentries against this but the issue is that you can contain with a unit comp that gives you a huge advantage advantage until later on. You are so far ahead because of econ, the second he can grabs his nat you can grab a 3rd without any threat of retaliation. With proper scouting you will know if he is favoring robo or templar tech meaning you can either mix more roaches in or get a few corruptors.
What exactly are you supposed to do if you can not get a fast expo against zerg, how are you supposed to get one against zerg? In PvZ you basically rely on getting that expo up fast so you can get your t3 units to handle Hydra's. I would really love to know how I would supposedly deal with this build so I can get my expo up asap, because without it you can not beat Zerg.
To add to this very late it is very nice to know about since zerg lack early pressure builds. I am having good results mid diamond although it seems fragile against multiple marine terran openings this might be because I still might be terrible.
On August 27 2010 23:23 Viruuus wrote: the key to beating this build is sentries into 4 warpgates into more sentries. Sentries(with zeals/stalker) own roach/ling so hard, its not even funny
Proper micro and adding more lings wouldnt have too much trouble with Sentry supported units.
You start running into problems and eventually failing the push if you cant get your lings some room to work with. If he holds the choke with forcefields/Zealots and Stalkers in the back shooting at your roaches and lings you will soon face too many units to handle. Basically if you can't break in, you are on the backfoot and better get a LOT of lings and crawlers for his soon-to-be 4-gate. I had this happen to me only once, because most protoss will eventually make the mistake to move their blocking units and let the lings in.
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
You're STILL looking at this the wrong way.
It doesn't matter how fast you get the 125 gas, as long as you have the 125 gas when the roach warren pops. Unless you're starting your RW early and not going with the larva pop (so basically not doing this build) there's no possible way you're getting roaches out any earlier than I would.
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
You're STILL looking at this the wrong way.
It doesn't matter how fast you get the 125 gas, as long as you have the 125 gas when the roach warren pops. Unless you're starting your RW early and not going with the larva pop (so basically not doing this build) there's no possible way you're getting roaches out any earlier than I would.
I'll check out the replays and see what's up
Looks like I must have been skipping speed for 14 and 15, you're right.
Still, if you time out everything right with 13/13 you will have exactly the amount of gas and minerals needed when the larva pop. 13/12 is unnecessary and has a pretty large mineral hit, especially if you send a drone scout out.
after tinkering around I finally had a game going where this was about to happen but my wonderful laptop overheated and shutdown, re-attempting now
if done right the 13/13 will be slightly faster cause there will be no delays (your last roach was going to pop around 5:08-9)
I don't know if my opponents were doing this right, but I fought this twice yesterday against ~700 zergs and it was so easy to kill. I did my standard rax fact tech tank build (think TvP in BW) with a rax/fact/ebay wall and they couldn't do anything. Even on steppes my tank spawns fast enough to ward them off, especially since the weakest component in my wall has like 800 hp.
And then afterwards I just play really safe, get to 3 thors and attack, and I still haven't lost.
I wonder if there's a way to beat my style of play with roach rush.
On August 28 2010 00:44 RampancyTW wrote:Looks like I must have been skipping speed for 14 and 15, you're right.
Phew! I was going crosseyed trying to figure out where I was going wrong. When you said about us both getting the queen at the same time and the larvae spawning at the same time, I was thinking: "Well, yeah, he's completely right of course. Huh. So why don't I have enough gas?"
Still, if you time out everything right with 13/13 you will have exactly the amount of gas and minerals needed when the larva pop. 13/12 is unnecessary and has a pretty large mineral hit, especially if you send a drone scout out.
Yeah, I'm leaning that way myself, if only because it's super-fiddly to do 13p12e quickly enough to make it even slightly worth it.
Gas first doesn't matter. It's a 13e/13p (or close), drone to 15/18, place RW at 70% queen completion, research ling speed, hatch 5 roaches, send lings to reinforce. It's the 5RR in spirit if not exact build.
On August 28 2010 01:11 Fistdantilus wrote: Gas first doesn't matter. It's a 13e/13p (or close), drone to 15/18, place RW at 70% queen completion, research ling speed, hatch 5 roaches, send lings to reinforce. It's the 5RR in spirit if not exact build.
What's the benefit of gas first? Wouldn't that delay the queen/injection/5 roaches?
On August 28 2010 01:36 Grimjim wrote: The loses incredibly hard to any early Marine/Marauder push, which seems to be the new Flavor of the Day insta-win Terran strategy.
Balance patch plz.
I did lose with it yesterday to a 6 rax no gas marine push, but that was more because of the sheer surprise factor and I responded incredibly poorly to it as a result. -_-
On August 28 2010 01:36 Grimjim wrote: The loses incredibly hard to any early Marine/Marauder push, which seems to be the new Flavor of the Day insta-win Terran strategy.
Balance patch plz.
Yeah, I've been using this strat and I've found it so amazing most of the time, but if you run up that ramp to find a 3 rax MM push coming your way, you're in big trouble. However, I think the right response is to not to go all-in suicidally like I did, but rather stick guys back on gas, throw done a baneling nest, and pump ling/baneling while sticking in the odd drone, and after fending it off teching to mutas.
On August 28 2010 03:40 Dogsi wrote: fast VR for a free win :-P
Someone tried that on me when I was testing this build last night, and 1 VR can only do so much when it keeps losing charge. Fast VR means your front defense will be next to nothing. I barged into his base and decimated most of his workers and pylons as well as his ground forces with roaches and ling.
I made extra queens at my base and natural and his VR was denied. I expanded, harassed with speedling, expanded again, and just kept harassing, teching, and massing.
He was way too behind after that initial push/rush to ever recover.
Haven't tried this extensively enough to comment on how strong it is over-all, but I have to say I'm definitely enjoying the style. After so much early FE and react it's nice to have some control in the early game without doing an all-in.
On August 28 2010 03:40 Dogsi wrote: fast VR for a free win :-P
Just pump more queens if you see VRs coming. Queens easily stop 1-3 VRs (make sure to spawn creep to your expansion), and your roaches+speedlings should punish any heavy tech unless he cannons.
I do have some issues with this build when going against a marine / tank Terran. Basically, the first tank pop when I'm breaking the wall, and with the helps of half a dozen marines, they can repell me - and destroy me in the subsequent push.
Don't know exactly what I should do in such a situation ?
Run, run the hell away. :p Retreat back and pump out as many lings as you can
@lovewithlea: awesome, i'll check this out later this seems like just about what i was looking for (: in this case the roach push is just to buy time for the expo to go up and kick in
On August 28 2010 05:47 Nuage wrote: I do have some issues with this build when going against a marine / tank Terran. Basically, the first tank pop when I'm breaking the wall, and with the helps of half a dozen marines, they can repell me - and destroy me in the subsequent push.
Don't know exactly what I should do in such a situation ?
I would say instantly throw down a bling nest and keep pumping speedlings (don't forget to put 3 in gas). Now you need to delay him until blings are ready. Position your Lings near his ramp and when he moves out, threaten to break in. Usually this will make the terran go back and deal with the problem, buying you time. 6-10 blings + a solid amount of speedlings should be enough to handle 1-2 tanks + marines. Especially if you send in the remaning roaches first and get a flank with the banelings. It is also possible to defend this with pure speedlings, but you need a lot.
New patch slows down the toss early game in theory, so it should help. However, I know a lot of tossers are worried about 6 pool now, and might get an earlier gate than normal.
I think that this build has the potential to become the standard against Toss after the first patch. I think it was already strongest against Toss in 1.0x. I can see the build time nerf really hurting their early game against Zerg.
The other thing this could lead to is Zerg finding itself in a "Terran-like" situation against Toss where we control the game flow early game. If we want to expand, there won't be much the Toss can do. If we want to do the 5RR, they have to do everything they can to prepare.
I think I'm going to LOVE this build in the upcoming patch.
My fiance just got the game today, and just from watching some Day9, and reading this thread, (and a little bit of QXC's build order tester) she managed to win 4 games straight in her placement matches, and is in platinum in her first day of owning the game
I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.
Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.
On August 29 2010 02:59 mango_destroyer wrote: I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.
Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.
Whats this 13/13?
or which page can i find the info out on?
would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page
Been trying the build out for a few games, it's working out a lot better than the opening I was using before. Even when you don't do that much damage the fact that you have a safer expo out really helps.
Thanks again for this Fist, and thanks to everyone submitting more info/variants!
On August 28 2010 23:40 Oconomist wrote: New patch slows down the toss early game in theory, so it should help. However, I know a lot of tossers are worried about 6 pool now, and might get an earlier gate than normal.
If toss are really going to be getting earlyer gateways as a response to that patch, I think I would experiment with double gas stealing.
On August 29 2010 02:59 mango_destroyer wrote: I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.
Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.
Whats this 13/13?
or which page can i find the info out on?
would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page
Page 15...newti`s 2nd post on that page.
Edit- I think the updated build is on the first page now.
I'm having difficulty transitioning against a M&M opening. If there's even one Marauder at the wall with 3-4 Marines I end up failing to break the wall and failing to the subsequent push. Good success against virtually every other T opening though.
I am a Diamond Player currently Laddering as much as I can and let me tell you If you scout that they are teching and you deny scouting this build can be deadly and with the upcoming 1.1 Patch an Protoss Nerf I can see this becoming standard against Protoss! So cheers for helping out the Zerg :D
I have always been fast expanding or one base muta since the roach nerf in beta. I do alot of practice games agiast mid level diamond and plat players and they are so surprised by the effectiness of this build. This build has completely changed my thoughts about roaches and makes into a very nice roach hydra transition for the mid game.
Hm, the fast stargate one was kind of deceiving. I expected it to be about how to counteract a fast Void Ray. From the looks of it, I don't think you would have survived it if it was indeed one.
On August 29 2010 02:59 mango_destroyer wrote: I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.
Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.
Whats this 13/13?
or which page can i find the info out on?
would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page
Page 15...newti`s 2nd post on that page.
Edit- I think the updated build is on the first page now.
Updated build is on first page. However, back on p. 15, newti, you asked if the earlier 2 drones was much better than drones later on? Was that ever decided?
Without the 2 early drones you get your roaches and zergling speed out much faster. But of course your economy will suffer a little. So just remember to do them afterwards with the expo or after that if you want your speedlings backing up the roaches.
On August 29 2010 02:59 mango_destroyer wrote: I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.
Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.
Whats this 13/13?
or which page can i find the info out on?
would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page
Page 15...newti`s 2nd post on that page.
Edit- I think the updated build is on the first page now.
Updated build is on first page. However, back on p. 15, newti, you asked if the earlier 2 drones was much better than drones later on? Was that ever decided?
Ok so this is what I have come up with after playing a lot of games with this build. The build in the OP works if the following is true: - You execute the build order perfectly with no mistakes - You Larva are near the minerals (drones don't have to run around the hatch) - You do not get harassed
What I do most of the time is cutting the drone after the first injection. This allows for minor errors in the build order and you can cope with worker harass. It also makes up for spawn locations where the Larva are on the other side of the Hatchery. Plus you get to keep that Larva to build an additional Zergling.
I suggest you try for yourself if you can squeeze 2, 1 or no drones after you started the Roach Warren. One Drone works for me.
If you want to gas steal check out my replays a couple pages back for a slightly different BO.
this is just great, almost no one knows how to handle it. and most think, a roaches, i just go 5 stalker and push, BAM surrounded by speedlings as soon as he pushes out.. so much fun
I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:
- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.
- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.
Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.
I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
Build more stuff. Keep your money low. Don't forget to build workers. Don't get supplyblocked. Your losses have almost certainly nothing to do with the strat he or you chose.
Got reps, gonkulator? I'm curious to see how you're going about this.
Vs. P -- Possible to just target the pylon powering the cannons? This won't all the time as smarter players will have multiple pylons powering their gates/cannons, but by the time you're knocking on their door, they shouldn't have *TOO* much established.
Vs. T -- If he walls up and you can't breach or get muta harass in, take the time to deny any expansions and just do massive map control. Use that muta mobility and stay on the move. Have pooping ovies/lings at each expansion. If/when he moves out, be ready with the appropriate counter. You should have outmacroed him if you denied him and he's spending the time/money to turtle.
Couldn't get through his defenses, was dumb not too scout his stargate because he had cannons everywhere (except at the back). Now that I look back at this I could've won this if I scouted his stargate earlier.
Managed to do a nice amount of damage in the beginning but had to pull back because of a well-placed Photon Cannon. I could've won this easily but when he got mass Carriers at the end and I was way too low on gas for more Hydralisks I just gave up.
I tend to get really, really sloppy when the game goes on for quite some time.
I find if they have cannons its best to just contain and switch to macro mode. you won't break through a proper wall if there's cannons behind it.
Lost a game earlier today where he cannoned in. I set up a contain with my roaches and lings and swapped to macro, but then got nailed hard by a proxy pylon in my main that i hadn't noticed XD Never could recover from that hit i took from the proxy Might have gone differently if it wasjn't there, but regardless. to me cannons mean swap to macro mode (which is pretty quick with this build).
I think (but just theorycrafting on this point) that you'd be roughly even to the cannon toss. The roach ling push doesn't actually work, but he's also spent resources on static defences so i figure you're approximately on equal terms (except that those roaches and lings can be used later in the match)
works like a charm. I usually open with this versus terran and Protoss. however good protoss have the tendency to get some photon cannons and rush for void rays. Don't macro too much, or you will be suprised by some unfriendly air.
Very nice opener. If you get some good drone harass on the SCV's you can actually delay the barracks and make this very effective. ^^
Maps with long rush distances or possibly 4-player maps allow this build to be used for ZvZ, but defensively. It works well when the opponent goes zerg/banelings because you can create essentially a roach wall. Quick teching to mutas allows zerg players to abuse the use of mobility and overlords.
This build also works when the opponent goes mass roaches (only if positioned correctly). I'll post a replay soon (yes opponent may have made some mistakes, but this replay helps show the build is viable for ZvZ...+ this was a diamond game...so there's some (just some...) credibility...)
On August 29 2010 22:56 gonkulator wrote: I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:
- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.
- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.
Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.
I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
You are bronze and you mention tanks don't allow to execute this build right.. That mean you just make everything too slow, he can't have tanks that fast imo. I suggest just don't do this build because it requires good timing.
On August 29 2010 22:56 gonkulator wrote: I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:
- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.
- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.
Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.
I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
You are bronze and you mention tanks don't allow to execute this build right.. That mean you just make everything too slow, he can't have tanks that fast imo. I suggest just don't do this build because it requires good timing.
Terran can have 1 Tank out on Maps where the walk distance is little bit longer... get a clue.
I've also seen one tank pop out. admittedly it didn't last long as it was after i had broken his wall and had lings swarming about the place. Was on scrap station, but i figure on the larger maps there is the possibility of a tank before you can bring the wall down.
fast robo on the other hand doesn't usually get the immortal out in time :D
With the 5RR, when the first 5 roaches pop, you generally have about 75-100ish gas built up to use on ling speed. If you scout the forward 2gate (not proxy but by the expo) then you can afford to delay ling speed by taking drones out of gas (or not putting them in yet, or delaying extractor, depends on scout timing). With the extra minerals, you build the spine crawler, put drones back on gas, and should still have the 5 roaches out at the normal time, with the only difference being that you won't have ling speed started right after they spawn out.
My suggestion if the build works out is continuing roach production if you see them build up zealots on 2gate, like 5+ zlots. After you reinforce 5roaches with about 3-4 more roaches, ling speed and lings follow through, or drone up depending on the situation.
this opening is great I have had a lot of success with it, I only follow your written opening loosely though, as your replay 15 extractor opening is much better, as it flows into the mid game much nicer, if I break his front lines, depending on what unit composition he's using, I take drones off gas (stalker/marauder) or keep them on (zealot/marine)
I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125.
I just want to add that I was hit with this the other day and it completely screwed me. We were in 6 and 9 positions on LT and I went VR rush. I scouted early gas with no warren before the lings got my probe and figured muta play. Build went perfect right up until the VR was half way finished and 5 roaches came knocking at the front. I clearly missed an opportunity to FF the ramp with my sentry (might have won the game if I had) and the roaches came busting in and wiped out the 2 zealots, stalker and sentry defending. The void came out, but not before the 10 roaches (reinforced) wiped the nexus.
IMO, This is a really effective ZvP build. The only good counter P has is typically fast robo (and seriously who does that in PvZ) since the roaches can hit before warpgate tech is done.
This turned out to be a really good opening: Only two of the wins were not outright - one against terran who went for fast banshee and killed my attacking units, not before they destroyed his economy. Then i made more queens, spores, hydras and eventually mutalisks, at that point he invested heavily in turrets and i went in with a ground army = gg. The other was against protoss, who got early immortal and with the help of all his probes stopped me. I expanded, made a shitload of speedlings and twice destroyed his army, he got colossus, i got mutas = gg. The only loss is a ZvZ, where he...wait for it...went for banelings and raped my drone line. I have yet to review the replay and see if i made any mistakes, but overall in the other matchups, especially against protoss, this build is great. I am now ~600 diamond - we'll see how far it gets me.
Edit: before today i had not played ladder for some time, that's why the points are so many - i had a large bonus pool.
Been using 1-base strategies more and more, because I am finding that I cannot hold my FE vs. most of the early rushes that are out there. The only one I can manage is 4gate on maps that allow you to wall it in. However, I am liking the 1-base early aggression a lot more. I use this roach strat against toss and a similar build with banelings vs. terran. The reason I don't even bother to try this vs. terran is because unless they are doing some strange tech build, they have marauders around, in which case your roaches just instantly die. The alternative is just marines, in which case banelings blow them up just fine and roaches aren't needed. Neither roaches or banelings are all in, both have a nice transition into midgame, ample opportunity to scout before you commit, and it's always nice to get a "FU" and quit early on from an opponent who was unprepared. Thanks Fistdantilus for this build order
I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread yet, but versus Protoss would the minerals/timings allow you to sneak in a gas steal to really gimp the P response to roaches?
How do you guys handle early Marauders, which mentioned previously, tear apart Roaches at the wall-off? Backtech to lings/blings? Or keep teching up? I feel that when I go Muta/Splings, I usually end up in a base trade or an outright loss.
On August 31 2010 03:03 xtcz wrote: How do you guys handle early Marauders, which mentioned previously, tear apart Roaches at the wall-off? Backtech to lings/blings? Or keep teching up? I feel that when I go Muta/Splings, I usually end up in a base trade or an outright loss.
I actually have this problem too. If the roaches can't push through the door, I usually end up macroing so that my expansion is up and functional. I follow this up with a tech to lair.
The problem lies here: If the terran player stays at 1 base and gets a combo of helions and marauders, which is an awesome strat against fast expansion zerg (as it limits the zerg player to lings/roaches for a long time), he can push through my expansion no problem. More roaches and lings don't seem to do much unless I out-micro his helions. Spine crawlers die pretty early in the push, and tech structures for hydra/spire come up in the middle of the push, usually too late for enough retaliation. It's pretty hard to come out on top against the terran marauder/helion timing push. Does anyone have any replays on how to counter this?
On August 31 2010 01:26 Demi9OD wrote: I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125.
Your timing isn't perfect, then. I have a replay a few pages back demonstrating "perfect" 13/13 timing
On August 31 2010 02:00 Psyclon wrote: This turned out to be a really good opening: Only two of the wins were not outright - one against terran who went for fast banshee and killed my attacking units, not before they destroyed his economy. Then i made more queens, spores, hydras and eventually mutalisks, at that point he invested heavily in turrets and i went in with a ground army = gg. The other was against protoss, who got early immortal and with the help of all his probes stopped me. I expanded, made a shitload of speedlings and twice destroyed his army, he got colossus, i got mutas = gg. The only loss is a ZvZ, where he...wait for it...went for banelings and raped my drone line. I have yet to review the replay and see if i made any mistakes, but overall in the other matchups, especially against protoss, this build is great. I am now ~600 diamond - we'll see how far it gets me.
Edit: before today i had not played ladder for some time, that's why the points are so many - i had a large bonus pool.
if there are some you particularly like, I'd like to see some of those replays just for kicks.
On August 31 2010 01:26 Demi9OD wrote: I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125.
Your timing isn't perfect, then. I have a replay a few pages back demonstrating "perfect" 13/13 timing
I see, I had the same problem as Demi90D ( and went for 14 -> 13, thanks for that ) and now I see the diffrence from what I was doing to what RampancyTW is doing, RampancyTW is not scouting on 13. I seem to remmber scouting as part of the build but I don't see it anymore. With the 14-13 I can have the 5 roaches at 5:25, you're way gets them at 5:05.
Don't you think the scan is worth the 20 seconds delay?
remmber that scanning a can show you an marauder or stalker build that will demolish your roaches ahead of time, or you can use your probe for gas steal or even setting a proxy hatch in his blind spot if you are feeling crazy.
This build just saved me from cannon rush cheese. Scouted wrong side of my base, then forgot to move ovie again. He started razing my base, I expanded to lower side and started macroing again, and took out his base ^^
btw what does LP stand for? Loser Play? Not sure was that a failed smilie or was he raging
I'm really liking the build, my only issue that I can think of is if a toss DOES have even just like... 1-2 stalkers, retreating is pretty much out of the picture, as they can chase you all over the place. I guess a wave of lings after the roaches might deal with that though, I haven't tried this yet. DEFINITELY going to practice this (I play random, but my zerg has been really weak, and I have yet to find openings I like besides the "safe" 14 gas 14 pool early speedling build, which rarely gives me the opportunity to actually attack a non-zerg base due to wall-offs and such.
Even if this turns out to get shut down totally in a month due to the metagame developing responses, I'm very happy to see some fresh openings for zerg! 14 gas 14 pool every game every matchup as zerg is getting stupid :\
On August 31 2010 01:26 Demi9OD wrote: I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125.
Your timing isn't perfect, then. I have a replay a few pages back demonstrating "perfect" 13/13 timing
I see, I had the same problem as Demi90D ( and went for 14 -> 13, thanks for that ) and now I see the diffrence from what I was doing to what RampancyTW is doing, RampancyTW is not scouting on 13. I seem to remmber scouting as part of the build but I don't see it anymore. With the 14-13 I can have the 5 roaches at 5:25, you're way gets them at 5:05.
Don't you think the scan is worth the 20 seconds delay?
remmber that scanning a can show you an marauder or stalker build that will demolish your roaches ahead of time, or you can use your probe for gas steal or even setting a proxy hatch in his blind spot if you are feeling crazy.
Especially on 4 player maps I do the 14-13, yeah. But on 2-player maps the OL usually gets there in time to see anything dangerous, and the following overlords will spot most cheese. It's definitely mildly risky but tbh I'm not sure somebody could really punish me for it. Even if they're popping straight stalkers or marauders I use the roaches as much to scout the build as do damage, and they're always a nice unit to have: and the best part of this build is the ability to do a well-timed ling follow-up.
For all the people saying their gas timing is not 100% sharp. I am by no means perfect either, for example my drone queue is a bit sloppy whilst scouting. What I do is 14 pool, then 13 gas (ie. gas up imidiately after putting down the pool). I usually have enough mojo for both speed and roaches doing this. So general BO is 9 OL 14 pool 13 gas 15 OL 15 queen + 2 lings to ward off their scout then scout a bit themselves (helpful to sneak a peek up the opponents ramp). Queen halfway done: Warren. Drones up to 20, then OL. When warren and inject pops, queue 5 roaches, and an OL more. Then inject, using this inject for lings.
Usually, aside from the very short travel distances, this ends me up with 5 roaches and 12-14 lings arriving outside my opponents base at the same time. Have tried the 13 pool 13 gas a few times, but since I lack the pristine timing (or well. Mostly lack it ) I find I like the 14 pool 13 gas a lot better.
Am now up to 845 point diamond. I find this works amazling vs Protoss. The only ones that really beat me are the ones who either are a long travel distance away = stalkers when I get there, or the ones going early sentry with a few stalkers and manage to block their ramp. I end up losing to these most of the time, because even if I do pull back I find myself a bit too far behind on econ to pull through since this kind of opponent often follows up with a big push 3-4 minutes later, that I am at that point in no position to repel. Build is a bit more weakish vs Terran. If they have marauders at their wall when roaches get there, its pretty tough to recover from since he will then often hit me with MM fast, and I dont have the macro at that point to pull a win off.
How do you guys usually react in these situations? I find if I get the units to defend, my economy is crippled and his 2nd push will overwhelm me. But if I get the econ up to deal with a big midgame push, then an early game push runs me over. Both of which are pretty easy to scout for a terran with scan, or a protoss who often gets immortals out once seeing my roaches.
Just played a Terran, who after the initial rush went all Marauders, and tried to attack my Main. By the time he got there I already had a squad of Mutas, and after I killed all of them I attacked his main and he didn't have a chance. Awesome build.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
Build more stuff. Keep your money low. Don't forget to build workers. Don't get supplyblocked. Your losses have almost certainly nothing to do with the strat he or you chose.
If I reach the P's base and see cannons blocking the entrance, I assume ( usually correct ) VR's coming.
I immediately tech to mutas asap as mutas do really well against VR's if you micro and move away before they charge up and then move back in against them. This happens a lot on DO and I usually win.
On August 31 2010 05:30 Malminos wrote: if there are some you particularly like, I'd like to see some of those replays just for kicks.
I will see what replays i have saved and i will post some.
Today was also a good day for 5RR - 8 wins out of 10 games. The two losses were to terran players. The first game my push failed, cause he had marauders. He had scanned 5 seconds after i denied his scout and saw the roach warren - pretty smart. I switched to muta, got a third base and macroed hard. At one point he pushed with 4-5 thors, marines and marauders. I had about 25 mutas, a bunch of speedlings and roaches and managed to stop him, but with heavy losses. I probably could have base raced - so many mutas can kill buildings pretty fast. But then it seemed he was able to gather his army faster (damn mules), destroyed my gold, then my natural and by that time it was obvious i was gonna lose. I will post the replay later, cause i need a third eye view and criticism. And the second loss is the reason for me posting now - it was on Scrap Station. Has anyone tried 5RR on this map? I thought the long distance would negate any rush, so i decided to FE and go speedlings. However he was able to cripple me with a kamikaze hellions-kill-drones fest, soon followed by a gazillion marauders. Honestly, what can u do against a hellion/marauder push? Anything but mutas is doomed, imo.
I am yet to lose to protoss, even on Steppes of War, where they 100% of the time go for 2 gate push. I change the BO a bit - sometimes 12 pool, other times 11 pool and the roaches pop up just in time to stop their initial push. Then my counter push is unstoppable.
I've used 5RR on scrap station, so it can work. A bit of a walk but i have worked it Best was against a T going fast banshee. i ended up smashing in and he lifted to the island so i played the contain game and plotted lots of corruptor/broodlord
[edit] Another reason i LOVE this build. Just played a ZvT on lost temple. ended up scouting quick 2 rax. later popped my 1st ling pair up his ramp for a quick peek and spotted a 3rd rax and a bunker. I then aborted the push (didn't make any roaches) and swapped to macro mode getting lair etc. game eventually went to muta play to cripple him (while being banshee harrassed back) then shifting more into ling/bling/infestor when he shifted to more marine heavy comp. Was so much fun. even got a rage quit after i crushed his army for the third time :D
Tried this a bunch of times and I am having mixed results.
But overall I really like the opening, definatly not something I would do every game, but I will keep using it from time to time, and incorporate it into my bo list.
Because I am getting so tired of for example tosses just teching (or doing an ultra fast 4-gate) off off like 1-2 zealots+1 stalker or something stupid like that, and I am glad that I have found like a good way to punish them for that, and scare them into not teching as fast or just generally make them watch out more.
The mixed results thing I said earlier actually comes from going against T.
It feels like everytime they see me take the gas early (altough it isn't that different from the "standard" 14 gas 14 pool) they most of the time will just get a bunker or like some extra defences.
Or maybe I am to scared to actually push up? But when I see like a bunker with 4 marines behind a supply depot (and mosty the other side walled with a factory or so depending on the map) I kinda back off, because I don't feel like 5 roaches can bust trough a supply depot + a bunker to let my lings be able to come in.
And when that happens I generally also feel like I am starting to get behind and if I don't pump drones really hard after the roaches that I will completely fall behind, and I have to play defensive again and he follows it up with like a big push including some marauders.
But that may also be me making mistakes in making drones at the wrong points later on.
On September 01 2010 10:41 Icx wrote: Or maybe I am to scared to actually push up? But when I see like a bunker with 4 marines behind a supply depot (and mosty the other side walled with a factory or so depending on the map) I kinda back off, because I don't feel like 5 roaches can bust trough a supply depot + a bunker to let my lings be able to come in.
And when that happens I generally also feel like I am starting to get behind and if I don't pump drones really hard after the roaches that I will completely fall behind, and I have to play defensive again and he follows it up with like a big push including some marauders.
But that may also be me making mistakes in making drones at the wrong points later on.
You're right that pushing on a bunker'd ramp with your roaches would definitely be a bad idea.
Against a terran that knows the roaches are coming I don't think this should get you a quick win unless they are extremely greedy and/or make some serious mistakes. Be prepared to drone hard after roaches and get the expansion up. You shouldn't necessarily be behind as long as you don't suicide your roaches.
I find the initial 5-roach most useful for simply keeping the terran honest and hopefully gleaning some information from the terran's reaction during that awkward pre-lair phase when scouting can be extremely difficult. Just seeing that he was forced to bunker to defend your push is usually enough to tell that he's probably teching heavily. If you want more than that, try sacrificing an overlord while you're poking at the front. A bunkering terran probably won't have the spare marines to chase your overlord down before it sees something.
How much are you using this build now that you're up around 1100-1200 range? I started hitting some walls with it vP who wanted to 3 gate robo/4 gate around 1k. (I'm at like 920ish now after tanking several games)
If they get that sentry out, you can count on a couple more stalkers being up in time to deflect the push, putting you in (in my opinion) a less than ideal situation for defending their push. (Which will literally be coming in 1-2 minutes after you pull back.
Also - while this beats reaper cuteness, T just transitions to marauder so easily around 1k, that I've had to move away from using this build at all when I scout tech lab on the rax. I've been opting to just cancel the RW (or not drop it) and just expo immediately in hopes of being able to defend with just speedlings.
I really like the 13/13 then transition to mutas against T, but against P they will generally forcefield my roaches in half or in completly, giving themselves a huge lead. I have stopped using this build in ZvP because the pressure isn't worth the loss in economy, even if it isn't an all in.
And so begins again the search for a ZvP build other than hydras.
On September 01 2010 11:27 MrBitter wrote: Fist: are you still watching this thread?
How much are you using this build now that you're up around 1100-1200 range? I started hitting some walls with it vP who wanted to 3 gate robo/4 gate around 1k. (I'm at like 920ish now after tanking several games)
I am still watching this thread sporadically. Been very laid back about it as I've been impressed that the community has taken it as their own and made excellent improvements.
I still use the 5RR vs every T and P as I'm comfortable with the dynamics it creates and enjoy the free wins now and again. It's also fun to watch my opponents who have died to this build and preemptively lay bunkers without even seeing the RW. =) If you're not comfortable with the resulting dynamics, by all means don't do it every game.
If they get that sentry out, you can count on a couple more stalkers being up in time to deflect the push, putting you in (in my opinion) a less than ideal situation for defending their push. (Which will literally be coming in 1-2 minutes after you pull back.
In my experience, sentries' force field has almost never stopped me from winning immediately. I just wait it out (sometimes several times), barge in, and win against his now craptacular non-energy sentries. I actually think early sentries hurt P as they could have been a stalker or two.
A sentry's FF only lasts ~15s (10s on faster?), so it's not like several stalkers pop out in the meantime.
REGARDING DEFENDING A PUSH RIGHT AFTER THE FAILED RUSH
I've noticed that while I want lings, I'm limited by larvae and not minerals/gas. So the best course of action is to put drones back on gas and produce roaches. If during the rush you see minerals getting high and you can't spend them on larvae, just make extra queens and/or put drones back on gas. That'll help as well. The 5RR requires a surprising amount of APM at times.
Also - while this beats reaper cuteness, T just transitions to marauder so easily around 1k, that I've had to move away from using this build at all when I scout tech lab on the rax. I've been opting to just cancel the RW (or not drop it) and just expo immediately in hopes of being able to defend with just speedlings.
Interesting. I see where you're coming from, but I feel it's still best to force that marauder transition by continuing with the 5RR. Once reapers get in large enough numbers they get hard to stop, even with roaches. YMMV. Also, I've had success attacking even if they have marauders (depending on how many and if they have concussive shell or not).
On September 01 2010 11:37 Subversion wrote: been using this build and i really like it - although it needs really really crisp timing to get it perfect!
This.
To everyone: I believe I have watched every replay in this thread (and many others that do the 5RR in other threads), and often the timings are way off but people still blame it on the build. The second most common problem is the roach micro (or lack of), and the third is generally missed injections.
Practice, practice, practice. The build really only changes vs an early 2-gate (make a few lings early to stall).
This is a great build to add to the playbook. It is in no way cheese for lower level leagues. Here is my current run opening with the 5RR, mostly Protoss and a few Terran and Zerg matches. Many of these games did not end with my 5RR push, but in every single one it at least provided enough mind games to push the Protoss or Terran player into a type of turtle mode and over commit minerals to units rather than economy. I like this opening for the mental games it plays, just as much as the damage it can do.
To have been using the updated 13/13 version with 2 drones after the 5 roaches pop rather than before. I have never have an issue on timing as long as I send my scout out around 12-13 supply and no above-average harass happens.
Another piece I want to contribute is a tip against Protoss. With your 12ish scouting drone, go to your expansion and act like you are laying a hatchery. Protoss will waste time microing their probe that they THINK is denying your expansion while you are just laser focused on the roach opening. This not only slows the early timing of most the enemies, but also plays even more mind games on them making them feel like they have now "screwed" your build order and have some kind of edge if they push with early zealots. Which you of course counter perfectly.
EDIT: Since people will inevitably ask and I forgot to mention it. I am a 6xx.Diamond player, none of these matches had me favored as well.
The FE example up there wasn't a good example cuz the roaches went in. What about a complete wall off with cannons + FE? I had a game where the protoss completed walled himself in and warped units outside. My roaches were useless cuz cannon was free hitting it and he had an economic advantage over me. I still won the game but it was from a come back and huge deficit. I'm afraid against a better protoss player I might not be able to come back from such a deficit. 2base zerg vs 2 base protoss gives protoss an edge. What will you guys do if he completely walled off with cannons and warping in stalkers? For sure he have nexus out before u or around same time.
Totally agree with you, BiggestNoobEver. Opponents are starting to respect Z early game and prepare accordingly.
I'll post some replays soon, but the gist of it is if you see a toss/terran FE and you can't break it with the rush, take your 3rd immediately and out-power them. Use your lings/roaches to break rocks to get the gold expansion if applicable. Sounds stupid I know, but I've had a lot of success with it.
On September 01 2010 13:09 BiggestNoobEver wrote: The FE example up there wasn't a good example cuz the roaches went in. What about a complete wall off with cannons + FE? I had a game where the protoss completed walled himself in and warped units outside. My roaches were useless cuz cannon was free hitting it and he had an economic advantage over me. I still won the game but it was from a come back and huge deficit. I'm afraid against a better protoss player I might not be able to come back from such a deficit. 2base zerg vs 2 base protoss gives protoss an edge. What will you guys do if he completely walled off with cannons and warping in stalkers? For sure he have nexus out before u or around same time.
Usually, you can see that with your scouting drone before you drop the roach warren, or at least before you morph the roach. When that happens, get Lair instead of roaches, expand as usual, and pump drones. Then scout, get the proper counter to whatever he's doing, and expand again.
On September 01 2010 11:27 MrBitter wrote: Fist: are you still watching this thread?
How much are you using this build now that you're up around 1100-1200 range? I started hitting some walls with it vP who wanted to 3 gate robo/4 gate around 1k. (I'm at like 920ish now after tanking several games)
I still use the 5RR vs every T and P as I'm comfortable with the dynamics it creates and enjoy the free wins now and again. It's also fun to watch my opponents who have died to this build and preemptively lay bunkers without even seeing the RW. =) If you're not comfortable with the resulting dynamics, by all means don't do it every game.
Thanks for addressing my question directly. Guess I just need to stick with it, and force myself to work out the kinks. On the whole, I love the build, and send all my newbie friends to this thread when they want Z advice.
That said, and I know you outline this in the OP to some degree, at what point vT and vP do you say "Ok, this ain't happening, I need to back up and change my gameplan".
I've been using a tweaked build order (by "been using" I mean I played around in a BO tester for 2.5 hours, and then played some games, and enjoyed this build) which:
- has roaches popping out at 3:45 (real time), which is 5 minutes 15 seconds game time. (I should retest the 13/13... I did it with a 10 scout, and didn't have minerals for all 5 roaches... the 3 I could build as soon as everything popped were done at 3:39, which is 5:06/5:07 in 'game time' )
- but also has ling speed finishing as you are building your followup wave
- timings allow for a 10 scout. I REALLY dislike not scouting early to see what they are up to. Depending on what you see, you can transition out of this build. If you don't transition, you can make better decisions about the followup based on what you are seeing.
- slightly looser gas timing. Can pull off gas if you need more minerals (once you have enough for everything), but could leave on for quicker tech follow-up if you like, or to allow follow-up with more roaches if needed. On some maps though, the gas is a little farther away, and you will be short with the 13/13 build above. With the below, you won't be short (or will only be short by about half a second--just long enough for you to re-inject before you build the roaches (including the short wait for the queen's energy to hit 25)).
9 OL Send 10th-12th drone to scout. If you scout with 12 instead of 10, the mineral timings are kind of loose. 15 pool 14 gas (as soon as you lay down pool)
15 OL (the timing is such that if you did lay down the gas right after pool, then as soon as you hotkey the OL to build is when you need to move 3 to gas. This is a helpful timing for me, as I'm usually looking at my scout, so I know to go back to my base as I build my OL and send 3 to gas)
15 drone 16 queen 18 zling (can switch up the order of queen and zling if desired... the zling larvae should pop out right when the pool finishes) 19 drone 20 drone
21 RW (after chasing scout out. No rush here--so long as queen is <= 70% done, will finish @ or before the larvae from the first injection)
20 ling speed right after laying down the warren. (If you don't mind cutting it slightly close to your lings hatching, and if you sent the 10 scout, you can actually wait until after the next drone, in order to get an extra half or possibly a full mining cycle out of the drone)
20 drone 21 OL 21 5 roaches. If you are slightly short on anything (with 10 scout you can be maybe 1 drone mining wave short of minerals for 5 roaches, and on larger maps you can be just barely shy of 125 gas I think), then reinject first before building these. 21 reinject 31 drone 32 OL
CHOICE: Depending on what you are scouting, you can either: - Expand as the roaches roll out, and then build lings 1 at a time as you get minerals if you don't expect any resistance, or if you are going to have to just be defensive, or if you are going to go in the backdoor on maps that have one (since you have time while breaking down the rocks to let the lings trickle in). Alternatively, you can of course pump drones instead of lings after expanding, if you are going to have to be defensive. - Pump 10 lings immediately as the 2nd inject spawns its larvae, rallying them to one of the roaches. Expand as you walk to enemy base. (If you want an even bigger rush force. If you are pretty sure you can bust in with the roaches, the 10 lings can run to mineral line and do decent damage faster than the roaches can get in there)
After that, I'll either follow up with more lings to finish them off (if the attack worked really well), or I'll switch over to drone production for a bit, and either start teching up, or mixing in more lings and possibly roaches, depending on what they have. (If I'm going to do anything other than more lings & roaches, I'll grab second gas after getting some more drones up. If just getting more lings and roaches, I'll wait longer before getting second gas.)
Note that I don't recommend using this vs other zerg--the extra bit of delay is deadly vs a baneling rush. With the normal build, you are still too slow (barely) vs a good baneling rush to be able to block your ramp (at least on smaller maps). With this tweaked build, you probably won't stop a mediocre baneling rush, as they have 6 or so extra seconds to get in there, unless you are on a larger map..
The upcoming patch (especially the siege tank changes) prompted me to think about upgrades in conjunction with this excellent build. Playing around with the numbers, it looked like +1 carapace could make a useful difference versus early Terran units. Roaches with 2 armour can soak up quite a few more marine shots, and lings benefit too - helpful for overwhelming a bunkered front, perhaps, as well as making a subsequent back-tech to lings more potent.
I tried some ideas out vs AI, and here's what I eventually came up with:
9OL 13 extractor 13 pool Drone to 15 Evolution Chamber when you hit 60 gas Drone OR wait for pool and make a pair of lings for scouting Queen when pool pops Carapace upgrade on 150/150 Warren on 150 Spawn larvae Overlord 5 roaches when warren pops Drone/lings Drone/lings Zergling speed at 100 gas. Take drones off gas Drones/lings/hatch etc
With this build order the roaches spawn at around 5:10, and the carapace upgrade is done by the time they reach the enemy choke (on Blistering Sands). Zergling speed is done by the time the second wave of ling reinforcements arrive.
Pros: +1 carapace for a counter-push ling swarm if one is needed Enables a very rapid response to fast banshees (spore crawlers)
Cons: Economic sacrifice greater than the original 5RR
Here's the thing: I'm nowhere near good enough to tell if this build is genuinely useful, so I'm posting it here for those who are to try, if they want
I'm doing really well with this build when I execute it right, which granted as a lowly silver peon is only sometimes. It really punishes formulaic terran play where they wall up, have a beer, and try to either tech straight for banshees or drown you in reapers. In other words, those scrubs we all love to hate.
The only guys successfully defending against it are the ones that went minimal cheese and actually, you know, built T1 units. Those are the guys you don't really mind losing to anyway. Well, and ones that got 4-6 reapers off. Damn do they need to delete that unit.!!
I did try it with fast +1 carapace but it is not working, lings are too slow and upgrade is too late. The original one works really well and i like to build the evochamber when i expand just for fast banshee. Usually i follow up with hydra, my goal is to deny him his expo not really to take down his wall.
It is funny to see GT AI not knowing what to do :-)) , this AI will try to build units to counter yours :-)) but cannot keep up with Roach Ling Hydra order.
I do not know how well this does against a rush since i have low apm and poor micro :-(
If you do get scouted somehow while the RW is building, should you stick with the BO or would it be a better idea to cancel the warren after scout is gone/dead and then switch to speed/bling bust?
If they're expecting a roach push, they might lower their guard against a bust in order to contain the roaches (i.e. slow reapers/zealots production to make marauders/stalkers).
On September 01 2010 22:29 Phrencys wrote: If you do get scouted somehow while the RW is building, should you stick with the BO or would it be a better idea to cancel the warren after scout is gone/dead and then switch to speed/bling bust?
If they're expecting a roach push, they might lower their guard against a bust in order to contain the roaches (i.e. slow reapers/zealots production to make marauders/stalkers).
If they're in a position to not be able to stop 5 roaches, they'll probably throw down a bunker, which would hinder banelings as well, not to mention your banelings would be very late compared to a normal baneling all-in.
Like it's been said before, this is far from an all-in strat and you should still be fine. You shouldn't be able to win outright if they see this coming, but you can still pressure and expand.
Basicaly my timings are almost perfect in the build (thanks to a night with YABOT)... it just seems that every terran I play gets 2-3 marauders or 1 marauder + bunker before I actualy am able to do anything with my roaches. Note that I rarely let em scout they are just seeing the 13/13 timer and build accordingly. I also tryed to pump more lings early on before expanding but without any succesful play. To be honest the 5RR only worked once or twice over the course of maybe 10-15 games. All other games I've struggled to come back. I might do something wrong tho..
vs protoss I rarely use it unless I see some kind of 3 gates without gaz but else I prefer going banelings and speedlings since banes will kill zealots and speed will kill stalkers and sentries early game
If they scout it, I'd recommend to still get 4-5 roaches, expand, power drone, and sac one or two OVs. As much as late game roaches suck, those early 4-5 roaches are really good against whatever harass they have in mind, and they save some larvae.
Congrats, you now have a chance at getting to the mid game in decent shape.
I find this build to be even more effective vs P though.
On September 01 2010 13:09 BiggestNoobEver wrote: The FE example up there wasn't a good example cuz the roaches went in. What about a complete wall off with cannons + FE? I had a game where the protoss completed walled himself in and warped units outside. My roaches were useless cuz cannon was free hitting it and he had an economic advantage over me. I still won the game but it was from a come back and huge deficit. I'm afraid against a better protoss player I might not be able to come back from such a deficit. 2base zerg vs 2 base protoss gives protoss an edge. What will you guys do if he completely walled off with cannons and warping in stalkers? For sure he have nexus out before u or around same time.
Protoss really wall in completely? Thats like, giving you a carde blanche to take a 3rd expand fast and go nuts with mutalisks. Oh, before blizzard finds out: Protoss only have 1 real counter to mutalisks, and thats a gazillion of carriers. Any other unit will end up short vs mass muta. Keep speedlings for early defense / maybe some spore crawlers to ward the lolrays that are bound to come sooner or later and start popping mutas in madness. Had a funny game vs a toss a while back where I ended up actually sending my drones into his wall just for the sake of getting a 200 supply army of only 3/3 upgraded mutalisks.
On September 01 2010 13:09 BiggestNoobEver wrote: The FE example up there wasn't a good example cuz the roaches went in. What about a complete wall off with cannons + FE? I had a game where the protoss completed walled himself in and warped units outside. My roaches were useless cuz cannon was free hitting it and he had an economic advantage over me. I still won the game but it was from a come back and huge deficit. I'm afraid against a better protoss player I might not be able to come back from such a deficit. 2base zerg vs 2 base protoss gives protoss an edge. What will you guys do if he completely walled off with cannons and warping in stalkers? For sure he have nexus out before u or around same time.
Protoss really wall in completely? Thats like, giving you a carde blanche to take a 3rd expand fast and go nuts with mutalisks. Oh, before blizzard finds out: Protoss only have 1 real counter to mutalisks, and thats a gazillion of carriers. Any other unit will end up short vs mass muta. Keep speedlings for early defense / maybe some spore crawlers to ward the lolrays that are bound to come sooner or later and start popping mutas in madness. Had a funny game vs a toss a while back where I ended up actually sending my drones into his wall just for the sake of getting a 200 supply army of only 3/3 upgraded mutalisks.
unless of course that they walled off their natural in which case you're on less than equal footing with the toss until you get your third running. This is very possible and almost standard on a few maps.
I can't say for certian as I haven't played anyone that held off the 5RR without taking some damage... but if you can keep the pressure and not make many lings, just drone hard and take a fast 3rd as the aboves says you should be ok...
(as for the muta, the counter is as with most units not letting you get so many of them, but even still storm isn't to bad at all, when they are pushing zelots in on you and forcing you to defend ... assuming we were not already not winning big in which case you can make just about anything they can manage)
Wow. I'm glad to see this thread improved after the first few pages.
Some things I have noticed after going through this thread and the replays a couple of times:
The Wiki has two builds listed, however, the replays in this thread show the same build regardless of whether the opponent is Terran or Protoss.
The note at the bottom of the wiki page has a link to this thread. However, when I saw the intelligence of the responses on the first page and how long the thread was I immediately lost interest in reading further.
Fistdantilus' replays on page 1 all show an expansion going down and the updated build order still calls for this, however, few of the replays from pg 16 onwards show an expansion and the ones that do have Zerglings coming out first.
My suggestion for updating the Wiki:
1) Remove different build orders for Terran & Protoss, or have links to replays with different build orders.
2) Have the updated build order listed. Then a link to RampancyTW's perfect timing. Then links to various 'in real life' replays (scouting drone, Roach Warren built when enemy scout dead, gas steals etc).
3) Have replays grouped in tidy sections E.g: These replays show no expansion because the game was won after roaches & zergling.... These replays show the timing of the expansion when the game has gone long. Fistdantilus' replays may be out of date but they are wonderfully consistent.
4) Have a history section with links to various parts of thread. pg 15 has the new build order. pg 18 to 21 has RampancyTW & Umpteen's discussion on resource timing. There may be further links if future patches change things. I think this would be better than a link to page 1 of a very long thread, especially since page 1 is such a poor example of what the Team Liquid forums are capable of.
I'd be happy to update/structure the wiki page myself but I first want to get some feedback from this forum (including, but not limited to, whether it's necessary and whether someone else would prefer to do it).
Just wanted to share possibly the most satisfying victory ever using this opening - and something that might be a useful tip, too. Playing vs Protoss on Xel'naga caverns, I threw my first overlord over my ramp to watch for in-base pylons (I've noticed that if I send it across map, my second OL gets to my ramp just too late to catch probes sneaking in sometimes, and I have to take drones off to scout instead), and set about my build order.
What do my scouting lings find when they head down the ramp but a proxy 2-gate up and running at my natural! Two zealots are already hanging around and are presently joined by a third, all of whom head up into my base.
They head for my queen, which I back off, and then turn their attention to my spawning pool. Here's the potentially useful tip: vs Protoss I've been placing my spawning pool out front, as far away as possible from my roach warren. It's a very tempting target for early zealot aggression compared with chasing a queen or drones around on creep, and if my opponent takes the bait there's a good chance this kind of no-scout rush won't even see the warren. With 3 roaches about to spawn and 4 more now on the way, killing the pool didn't actually achieve anything. Losing a queen or some drones (or the warren) would have been much worse. I was able to chase him out of my base, blow up his proxy and grab my expansion. (I was a bit stupid and only knocked out the pylons at first, forgetting the remaining buildings gave him vision. He sent some zealots back and I had to cancel and remake the expansion more securely).
Credit to him, after his rush failed he pulled back, macroed up and came out with a really sweet zealot/templar/phoenix... nah, I'm shitting you, he put five cannons on his ramp and made three Void Rays. Which I killed with the large force of Roach/Hydra I'd made off two bases (to be fair the roaches were mostly there for moral support). So he put ten more cannons on his ramp and built eight more Void Rays. Which managed to take down an extractor and a couple of the even larger force of Hydra I'd massed off three bases. So he made a robotics bay, a warp prism, a robotics support bay and a fleet beacon (for some reason), six more void rays and sent them in as a distraction while he built an expansion. Which was promptly overrun by the swarm of lings I'd had patrolling every mineral line on the map for the last ten minutes. So he spent his last resources on three more Void Rays. Then he left.
Hilarity aside, I think one reason I like the 5RR so much is that it's not a debilitating crutch like in-base pylons or 2-gate proxies. If the guy I played had won, what would he have learned? Based on what he did when it failed, not a hell of a lot. On the other hand, every time I've lost with 5RR I've felt like I learned something useful, because it wasn't the build that lost me the game.
On September 01 2010 22:29 Phrencys wrote: If you do get scouted somehow while the RW is building, should you stick with the BO or would it be a better idea to cancel the warren after scout is gone/dead and then switch to speed/bling bust?
If they're expecting a roach push, they might lower their guard against a bust in order to contain the roaches (i.e. slow reapers/zealots production to make marauders/stalkers).
If they scout the warren (it hasn't happened often) I tend to wing it. This usually involves taking the expand early, making no roaches (but making speedlings as they will have made stalkers or marauders) and scouting them again. The warren itself is a 150 investment only and the build is perfectly viable as a speedling into expand build. They will usually overreact to that 150 investment (by being very marauder/stalker heavy). Remember to drop lair right after the expand in this case as you will have extra gas and need to account for fast void rays or banshees.
Platinum Zerg, trying to move into Diamond. (Hurgh.)
Observations/thoughts. Please let me know what you think/encounter and how to deal with accordingly.
ZvP. Works exceptionally well. Sometimes, I'll see a VR by the time I move in, and I'll already have another queen, maybe a Spore. I'll have already moved to building a Spire by then as well. Early Stalkers/Zealots can't do much to stop good Roach micro. The only thing I really fear here is maybe unscouted proxy gates, or the somewhat random proxy cannon. A transition into Lair tech and Mutas following after this usually works wonders. How does this fare against a decent 4 gate?
ZvT. A bit more problematic, especially when they decide to pump out more Marauders than Marines. This requires a bit more precision on my part, as more than once, I'll breach but I'll fail to keep up the Zergling pressure in subsequent waves. Once they rebuild that Depot, it'll be tough to get back in. At that point, I'll have taken the my expansion, and eventually move onto macro up from there. Map control and mobility will usually net me the win, but I hate dragging matches out like this. For heavier numbers of Marauders, do you all just give up and pull back your Roaches, or keep going in?
ZvZ. I usually scout for a 6 pool early on, and look out for the almost universal response of spling/bling. I'll keep up with the Roach build, crank out the Roaches and block my choke. Waves of splints/blings can't crash through this wall. Fast tech to Spire for Mutas, and usually it's gg from there, unless they immediately respond with their own fast Mutas. Does anyone have anything else to contribute here?
On September 03 2010 00:33 xtcz wrote: Platinum Zerg, trying to move into Diamond. (Hurgh.)
ZvT. A bit more problematic, especially when they decide to pump out more Marauders than Marines. This requires a bit more precision on my part, as more than once, I'll breach but I'll fail to keep up the Zergling pressure in subsequent waves. Once they rebuild that Depot, it'll be tough to get back in. At that point, I'll have taken the my expansion, and eventually move onto macro up from there. Map control and mobility will usually net me the win, but I hate dragging matches out like this. For heavier numbers of Marauders, do you all just give up and pull back your Roaches, or keep going in?
OP suggests that if you see heavy marauders pull back everything to your choke do a round of drones, and begin macro mode, because you'll LOL lose if you don't.
This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
I am starting to like this build more and more against Zerg. Initially, I hated surrendering the map to the opponent who chose speedlings but now I am starting to take advantage of the small defensive holes that appear when the opponent expands or starts his spire. Generally, I have found that continuing to mass roaches behind you roach wall is more successful than trying to move out of roaches after the early game. If you make a push at the right time, even speedlings will fall the huge mass of roaches. If my opponent went roaches as well I play very defensively and blitz mutas as he will have no answer if I arrive in his base before his mutas are out.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)?
On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote:Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
I am starting to like this build more and more against Zerg. Initially, I hated surrendering the map to the opponent who chose speedlings but now I am starting to take advantage of the small defensive holes that appear when the opponent expands or starts his spire. Generally, I have found that continuing to mass roaches behind you roach wall is more successful than trying to move out of roaches after the early game. If you make a push at the right time, even speedlings will fall the huge mass of roaches. If my opponent went roaches as well I play very defensively and blitz mutas as he will have no answer if I arrive in his base before his mutas are out.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)?
What specific terran builds have you been having trouble with lately? A day ago I played an 1100 5-rax-reaper terran and won soundly despite canceling my lair at 99% on accident. Against early marauder/marine specifically you need to be prepared to fall back on mass speedlings and not overdrone your expansion.
I've been using 13pool/13 gas and I feel the combination of roaches+speedlings keeps me very safe from any early pressure. I typically fear fast banshee the most with this build, but at least I can usually see that coming when roaches pressure the wall, and I sacrifice an overlord.
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push
On September 03 2010 06:33 RampancyTW wrote: @SixSigma:
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push
This actually sounds really cool. Keep spotters outside your base so he'll have problems viewing the army size and I think this is pretty decent.
very solid build over all. Even in 2v2 situations, early roach is great counter to early reapers/zealots/marine combos. if your opp is light units heavy, eg (lings, marine, zealot/sentrie) throw in some banelings too.
baneling: "i'm great with marines, lings, and workers :3"
what am i supposed to do when protoss put few canons in their base? retreat?
Any way to end the game quicker instead of dragging on to 30+ mins
Saw the OP replays. There are a few games with the older 13/15 BO, but made 6 roaches and late speed updrade. Is it better to have one more roach or the speed early?
On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote: This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)?
I'm having the same experiences in both cases. I'm going with a 14/14 now, as it keeps open the option of gas stealing against a teching/4gate protoss.
Vs Protoss it almost seems unfair if they are going for 4gate or VR as you win a crazy amount of the time (and this is vs 1100+). It's almost to where they have to 2gate just to live.
Note: I've changed my stance a little, and I now put down one spine if I see the two gate with stored chrono boost. It uses less larvae than hatching several lings.
Terrans have figured out the secret to stopping the 5RR: just build everything at your choke as if you were up against a baneling bust. The trade-off is that it gives their tech away, but in return they can live through any early zerg attack. There are a lot of people who still haven't figured that out yet, but that number will drop. Heck, I even had a few immediate wins vs T today. I still think it'll be viable at some points in time, but I'm trending away from using it every game vs T.
On September 03 2010 06:50 Andre112 wrote: noob here with questions
what am i supposed to do when protoss put few canons in their base? retreat?
Any way to end the game quicker instead of dragging on to 30+ mins
Saw the OP replays. There are a few games with the older 13/15 BO, but made 6 roaches and late speed updrade. Is it better to have one more roach or the speed early?
Thanks
If he cannons, your best bet is to take your expansion and out macro him and beat him in the mid/late game with your superior econ.
It's risky for you to try to end the game in < 30 min if hes playing super defensive with cannons in his base.... you can try all-in mass roach with nydus tunnel on 1 base. Get the lair, after lair finishes, research roach speed, and get a nydus tunnel, and just build as many roachs as you can to bum rush him. This will work great if he only has cannons near the front and is unprepared.
I used this twice and beat terran twice, but lost to protoss twice as well. My problem with protoss was that I roach rushed it was successful in breaking the wall, but then i would see my base under attack by one-three void rays. what can i do to make sure this DOESNT happen. its very frustrating and since i have no anti-air that early, theres not much i can do.
On September 03 2010 13:14 Tahm wrote: I used this twice and beat terran twice, but lost to protoss twice as well. My problem with protoss was that I roach rushed it was successful in breaking the wall, but then i would see my base under attack by one-three void rays. what can i do to make sure this DOESNT happen. its very frustrating and since i have no anti-air that early, theres not much i can do.
With decent timing my roaches are popping at about 4:57. All these so called "perfect" timings in here aren't perfect, people are building drones late and such
Interesting how people are having more trouble vs Terran.
I find I win more outright vs Terran with this build. But I guess maybe people haven't wised up to it yet (I'm only 600 Diamond).
I find its pretty easy to break down a depot and get in, and once I've done that the lings pwn.
I find a good Toss is able to hold this off with a 4gate, but maybe thats just poor micro on my part. In any case, if he holds it off I expand, make a ton of units and drop like 4 crawlers (literally) which is enough to hold off the massive counter-push that inevitably comes. After that its muta for map control, hydras in the mix and usually a guaranteed win if you don't wait for him to get a ton of collossi.
As for using this in a ZvZ I actually haven't tried that. Although to the guy earlier who said he blocks the ramp and techs to mutas, I say tech to Hydra instead. A good Z will see you blocking the choke like that and immediately try tech to Muta to match you. A 1-base muta build can only get you like 6-8 mutas and not much else. If you then do a timing push with +1 Roach ball with a bunch of less expensive hydras, you can roll through his whole base and his Mutas just drop like flies.
Anyways, I'm having a lot more success with this build since finally getting my timings better, its actually quite a bitch to get the timings perfect on this build, its so damn precise!
so I found out a way to get 6 roaches at 5:04. Changes to the 13/13 are bolded
9 ovi 14 ext 13pool 15 ovi Drone Queen Ling Drone Drone Warren Ling Speed Ovi, when queen pops inject I take the first drone off of gas at 136ish, 2nd drone at mid 140's, and last done when they bring in the final gas for 150. reinject 6 roaches (6th roach is a split second slower)
With this changes you cannot spare a scouting drone. This means using this variation would be good for 1v1 maps since ovi scout SHOULD be enough. I imagine scrap station is a good one since you get an ovi in their base really early and the wide ramp. Splitting workers and being on point on making drones and tech buildings on time needed as the timing is really tight.
On September 03 2010 15:37 ZodiakLucien wrote: yes, my mistake I will fix it
Why do you bother getting ling speed when doing a 6 roach rush though?
Adding 75 minerals and 25 gas to an early push is not game changing. Just because he's adding another roach doesn't make it an all roach build. The idea is the same. he's just saying that he can squeeze in another roach with that build
On September 03 2010 15:37 ZodiakLucien wrote: yes, my mistake I will fix it
Why do you bother getting ling speed when doing a 6 roach rush though?
Because once you're in, lings are the best unit to reinforce and do the damage. Especially when they start making maruaders/stalkers to counter the roaches, which are probably hurt by that point. Also it keeps the build safe for if your push completly fails.
Yes but it really really hurts your economy, and it means you cannot even afford an early scout. I'd rather just get the roaches early, then switch to ling speed if necessary - besides, unless the terran wastes a scan early on or you really fuck up and let him scout, who opens on marauders zvt in diamond?
He is either going to open on reapers/hellions or 1-1-1.
On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote: This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch.
It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story .
But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^.
I'm not sure about the adequateness of sentries - a friend of mine and I tried it a bunch of times and even when he pumped sentries and non-stop FF, there was a moment when he had no energy and my initial 5 roaches and ton of speedlings rushed in and that was it. Maybe he did not do things properly, i can't say, but it seemed to me that sentries cannot do the job. If there was a way to combine sentries, stalkers and immortal, maybe it would work, but it is way too early for all of those things to pop up.
On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote: This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch.
It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story .
But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^.
It's damn strong on Blistering Sands tho.
Yeah, I think the surprise factor is a big part of it. There is no doubt the meta will start shifting if people continue to get the results I have been getting. Still, I find that the Toss player needs excellent micro with forcefield to stop the initial push.
So exactly what is the theory behind earlier ling speed vs terran and later ling speed vs protoss? Can both be used interchangeably with either vs p or t?
On September 03 2010 18:11 Mearis wrote: Yes but it really really hurts your economy, and it means you cannot even afford an early scout. I'd rather just get the roaches early, then switch to ling speed if necessary - besides, unless the terran wastes a scan early on or you really fuck up and let him scout, who opens on marauders zvt in diamond?
He is either going to open on reapers/hellions or 1-1-1.
I have seen a lot of marauder openings ... 900 diamond playing against slightly favored people regularly. Never have had my warren scouted by terran.
The ling speed and the expansion make this not an all in. I win a majority of my games because of the speedlings hitting a bunch of marauder/tank/stalker. I have actually also transitioned the build into baneling bust vs Terran as they often go marauder heavy with marine support so ling baneling can annihilate them.
As to the void ray issue, your roaches are late. They should hit his base a little before first void ray comes out, you can usually do econ damage and while the void ray kills your roaches, you build a couple extra queens.
On September 04 2010 00:15 Sixes wrote: As to the void ray issue, your roaches are late. They should hit his base a little before first void ray comes out, you can usually do econ damage and while the void ray kills your roaches, you build a couple extra queens.
This :D When the voidray pops out (sometimes it doesn't if they tried to hide the starport and you snipe the pylon) it needs to help mop up in his base of he runs the risk of being overrun and dying anyways. That buys you the time for extra queens and soem spore crawlers (especially since your mineral income is pretty decent after pulling drones off gas).
On a slightly related note i'm wondering how DT rushing would fare against this build. Had a guy try it on me but i ended up sniping the pylons powering his warpgates moments before the shrine finished. Assuming the DT got out it'd mop up the lings/roaches a lot faster and i'm not sure how well queens fare against DTs. Don't think it would neccasarily help the toss get back in the game, but would be fun to theorycraft about at least. I can post a replay of the game where he almost got DTs out if you guys want?
The thing with dts is they are almost invariably hidden and I believe they arrive later than rays (gateway cyber stargate+build time versus gateway cyber twilight dark shrine+warpin). The other thing about the dt rush is that killing a pylon or two may just supply lock him as the dark shrine finishes building.
Also, make an in base hatchery if those minerals get high. Especially against a 4 gating toss, you get gas back (and get to hydra) but get another hatch for more lings, they generally chew through gateway armies that aren't 60%+ zealot.
I need to make some form of gamereplay account to be able to upload replays :/ I definitely have several vP games where they barely hold off the initial push but I just pummel them with 2-3 hatch zergling for 10 minutes and they die.
On September 04 2010 00:15 Sixes wrote: As to the void ray issue, your roaches are late. They should hit his base a little before first void ray comes out, you can usually do econ damage and while the void ray kills your roaches, you build a couple extra queens.
This :D When the voidray pops out (sometimes it doesn't if they tried to hide the starport and you snipe the pylon) it needs to help mop up in his base of he runs the risk of being overrun and dying anyways. That buys you the time for extra queens and soem spore crawlers (especially since your mineral income is pretty decent after pulling drones off gas).
On a slightly related note i'm wondering how DT rushing would fare against this build. Had a guy try it on me but i ended up sniping the pylons powering his warpgates moments before the shrine finished. Assuming the DT got out it'd mop up the lings/roaches a lot faster and i'm not sure how well queens fare against DTs. Don't think it would neccasarily help the toss get back in the game, but would be fun to theorycraft about at least. I can post a replay of the game where he almost got DTs out if you guys want?
Sooo, how do you handle a 2 gate? I attempted it against a 2 gate, lost to mass Stalkers. Couldn't macro up enough in time, was against a Diamond Toss.
On September 04 2010 11:08 xtcz wrote: Sooo, how do you handle a 2 gate? I attempted it against a 2 gate, lost to mass Stalkers. Couldn't macro up enough in time, was against a Diamond Toss.
how many stalkers were there out of 2 gates?
when your roaches get to the opponents base if you see stalkers then you have a choice. pump lings and push in, or fall back and defend/macro. hydras and lings both own stalkers, its the roaches that have a problem with them. ive found sending 6 or so lings in front of your roaches to soak some damage can buy you enough time to kill a pylon, after which you send the rest of your lings through.
ive had the toss player scout my roaches and pump stalker. you need to scout to see what his army is made of and build the appropriate counter unit.
When doing a roach opening vs Toss and they wall in with cannons to FE, your overlords should confirm that they actually built the Nexus and even if you committed to a few early army units, you can still use those to go take out destructible things on the map. Most maps have some backdoors or gold rocks or other places that you usually don't get free time to knock down. Go do it while your opponent is holed up in his FE cannon fortress.
On September 04 2010 13:38 Frunkis wrote: What do I do if I see protoss going 2 gate zealots? Should I continue the build or make lots of lings or what?
Roaches do much better against zealots than zerglings.
On September 03 2010 18:46 Velr wrote: The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch.
It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story .
But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^.
It's damn strong on Blistering Sands tho.
Very true.
On the other hand the build at the very least forces some form of mid game (or gives zerg a win). It has massively helped me with my ZvP because I had issues with 2/4 gate pushes. This shuts down the 2 gate completely and is a good start to countering any 4 gate (roach warren up, expand down in a timely manner).
I agree that sentries counter it but if you force toss to FF his own ramp, that is already a good thing. Sentries also slow down the tech a lot (they are great to mix with zealots in a 4 gate push but very gas heavy if trying to tech).
I have had great success against Terran by the way. I need to sign up to one of these replay hosting sites ... generally goes 5 roach push, he either dies or has marauders (I have also shut down reapers by this point) then the marauders/marines/occasional tank try to push and get eaten alive by ling/bling, the game then ends on a counter, a bling bust or a ton of mutas.
Here are two games that i played a few minutes ago. Let me say, they are far from competitive, but i think i got the builds just fine.
The goal of the first build is to win the game outright. Metabolic boost is delayed in favor of 2 more roaches, which i think makes it much more difficult for the protoss. Even if he FF the ramp, they can sit there and kill zealots. If he has more stalkers, send 2 roaches to follow them, the others will kill pylons. By that time a batch of zerglings should be arriving.
The second build is especially for SoW, but it can easily be used on other maps too. Here your first 4 roaches pop up 20 seconds earlier, the fifth one is delayed only by 5 seconds. This absolutely destroys early protoss pressure, even on a short map like SoW.
Both builds may be considered an all-in, because they do not include a second hatch, but i seriously doubt that the initial push can be stopped in more than 1/10 games. I think it is possible to shave off a few more seconds here and there, but even in the current state things are happening pretty fast.
And here is a quick game on SoW against terran using the second build. He goes for marauders, which is the best counter in this case, but i am still able to break the wall. If he had moved his scvs to repair, things would have been different though. The supply depot took exactly 10 ingame seconds to fall down, which i think is enough to commence with the repairing.
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Edit: So, it actually turns out that sentries + zealots + good FF easily stop this build on larger maps. Therefore, it is very important NOT to skip the expand, cause if the protoss masses zealots + sentries it is basically GG, if you stay on one base. But it has to be noted, that i practiced with a friend, who knew exactly what i was going to do. In ladder there is a good chance that a large number of protoss players will not prepare for this rush.
Thanks for the amazing build, Fistdantilus! I'll try and learn to execute this build smoothly from now on. Hopefully it'll help me get into Diamond.
Here's my first taste of the build against a Zerg player (Platinum game). I've had a lot of trouble in ZvZ recently but this build seems to work rather well.
I think I've won 6 or so in a row since implementing the 5RR, after foundering as a mid-level bronze. Even though my timing is usually off (when do I spawn that 5th overlord?), I am seeing good results. One game lasted a bit longer when a terran had a factory/barracks wall instead of depots, and rushed for banshees. I still managed to break down the barracks when I brought the few zerglings in to help. Those first couple banshees fended off the rush, but not before I dealt a major blow to his economy. The rest of the game was just my turtling with a few spores and letting my macro advantage usher in the mutalisk finisher.
Another not so spectacular result was against mass speedling zerg who countered before I could prepare. The result was an epic base trading race where I won only thanks to the broodlings that spawned from my last few dead buildings! He gg-ed when I had naught but a half-health hatchery, 5 roaches, and 15 minerals.
It really does feel good to punish people for walling in and teching up to their indomitable victory fleet. "I don't need any marauders! I'll get this sexy air-for AAAAGH ROACHES HALP!"
I mean it seems to be that the build can't stand up to really fast speedlings, and I think expanding wouldn't really be safe if he went speedling/baneling against your roach?
You can wall your choke with the 5 roaches, but then whats the transition?
Fist, do you use this build in ZvZ? How do you follow it up/do things differently?
On September 03 2010 06:33 RampancyTW wrote: @SixSigma:
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push
Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
against 2 gate rush its perfect, but ya. trutling protoss its also not that good, u cant get in with canons at the front without losing many units. And my eco sucks until then compared to protoss and then he does a push and again i dont have enough units because not enough larva or mins.
Against Terran its oki, you force the Terran to build Marauders etc. thats good actually.
Yeah speedling rush in ZvZ seems to be a weakness, as I described above. I suppose you could plop a second batch of roaches at your ramp, but the beauty is that whatever anyone else does, they have to respond to your roaches first. So that gives you time enough to prepare for any sort of quick counter.
So I am playing this and I am having a really hard time with Siege Tanks and siege mode. I didn't really think it would be a problem considering it takes ~6 minutes give or take to get there, but my roaches just don't make it in time, even when I play fairly well.
What's the timing I should be aiming for when my roaches are at my opponents base on say Kulas? Assume I know where the base is located, I think in the particular game I was in where it happened I lost an ovie (I assumed I lost it actually having saved it and lost it anyway). I am not looking to be evaluated, I just want to know the timing give or take. I do the build exactly as it is written.
On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote: Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
against 2 gate rush its perfect, but ya. trutling protoss its also not that good, u cant get in with canons at the front without losing many units. And my eco sucks until then compared to protoss and then he does a push and again i dont have enough units because not enough larva or mins.
Against Terran its oki, you force the Terran to build Marauders etc. thats good actually.
That isnt the builds fault!!
If the P player is going 4gate and you havent scouted, you deserve to lose. If the P is going 4gate and you scouted and still dropped an expansion, you deserve to lose.
On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote: Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
Ok, what we have here is a 28 page thread with multiple replays of the 5RR working very well against Protoss, with and without transitions to mid game, and then we have you saying that it doesn't work against 4 gate.
In order to help with this could you perhaps post some replays?
I know the issue of scouting (@ ~12) has been mentioned before (and its on the liquidpedia), but I didn't see too much discussion on it (sorry if i clearly missed it but scanning ~30 pages with ctrl-f is as much legwork as I can handle), is there any reason to scout with a drone if you are going 5RR against T/P? It seems that nothing I ever scout makes me want to switch up, and when I do see something super ugh its too late because warren is already down...should I just let scout-killer lings do the scouting or should I pull off a drone?
Opinions from those who pull this often?
-edit-
also when I P v Z and my scout gets ling'd before I can see, I generally make a sentry and attempt to split the roaches on my ramp with ff (assuming they are coming although that sentry is a lot of gas)...is this the best response if you cant be sure its coming? or should I move probe outside his base and spawn stalkers if/when i see the roaches incoming?
@Fistdantilus Why do you put "NOTE: All of the replays are on the old 13/15 build, but all of the ideas remain the same." on your first post ? Could you please edit your first post adding all your recent feedback ? Thx
This opeining gets crushed by reaper opening if you are playing against a competent terran. As soon as he see's you are taking gas after building pool, he will only build one reaper and then go for MM. You could be going for some late banelinx or muta, but usually gas after pool means roaches.
That's why I have switched back to a classic 14 extractor, 14 pool build: to keep most options open.
That way, you can still go for fast roaches if you want to, with a minor delay - or do anything else, depending on your scouting.
14 Extractor 14 Pool 15 Overlord 16 Queen 18 Zerglings around 20 / 21 Roach Warren (when Queen is halfway done, as usual) Overlord when Queen pop 5 or 6 Roach when overlord, roach warren & inject finish
The roaches are out at 5'10, approximatly. I tend to research zergling speed just after I've done the roaches, but it can probably be done a bit soonner.
What I love with that build is that you retain the possibility of an early roach rush, but you are not bound to it, and you can change for the other zergs openers (say, sling / bling or fast expand) without any trouble nor delay.
On September 05 2010 11:57 Omele wrote: So I am playing this and I am having a really hard time with Siege Tanks and siege mode. I didn't really think it would be a problem considering it takes ~6 minutes give or take to get there, but my roaches just don't make it in time, even when I play fairly well.
What's the timing I should be aiming for when my roaches are at my opponents base on say Kulas? Assume I know where the base is located, I think in the particular game I was in where it happened I lost an ovie (I assumed I lost it actually having saved it and lost it anyway). I am not looking to be evaluated, I just want to know the timing give or take. I do the build exactly as it is written.
I had exactly the same problem on steppes - I was up against a terran siege tank / mm timing push (when siege tanks have siege mode) and lost cleanly, simply because by the time you get to their base they have a couple of marines and marauders which is enough to make the attack uneconomical, so you pull back, contain, power drones / hive tech, and then the push comes and walks over everything. I had infestation pit just plopped in anticipation of a decent sized MM, but the siegetanks bbqd my roach ling pretty well before I could get one out. Maybe it would have been better to back tech to ling / bling.
I like this build because it allows me to expo but I don't like it because the 5 roaches do nothing against a decent terran. I don't like making roaches unless I have to personally though.
On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote: Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
This opening is amazing, honestly, thank you so much for it. Z have a respectable and fearful opening for a change rather than all in's, or straight macro play.
A 2 gate(fake) into 4 gate or 3 gate robo is very common and you can't scout that from a good player. So your second hatch being 2 minutes too late with the 5RR won't let you survive a 4 gate /3 gate robo since you won't have enough ling production.
A proxy stargate will end you no questions. Not enough Queens in time.
A 3 rax with stim push happens almost exactely when you arrive with your 5 roaches and they will get eaten alive along with him keeping you on one base for way too long after that.
Compared to a normal 14 extractor, 14 pool, 15 hatch this "non-all in" will no matter how you bend it make your expansion at least 2 minutes delayed and you'll be at least 5 drones behind if not more when you hit 30 supply (which is A LOT this early).
It might get you a few 7 minutes wins but macro v macro if held off by a competent player you will loose, especially if you loose your expo which is very likely with a counter attack.
I'm not saying the "standard" opening build can't be changed, ofc it can and will be. But this build is worse as a "new" standard since it feels too much like a 4 gate aka all-in.
On September 05 2010 23:41 Gremmel wrote: A 2 gate(fake) into 4 gate or 3 gate robo is very common and you can't scout that from a good player. So your second hatch being 2 minutes too late with the 5RR won't let you survive a 4 gate /3 gate robo since you won't have enough ling production.
A proxy stargate will end you no questions. Not enough Queens in time.
A 3 rax with stim push happens almost exactely when you arrive with your 5 roaches and they will get eaten alive along with him keeping you on one base for way too long after that.
Compared to a normal 14 extractor, 14 pool, 15 hatch this "non-all in" will no matter how you bend it make your expansion at least 2 minutes delayed and you'll be at least 5 drones behind if not more when you hit 30 supply (which is A LOT this early).
It might get you a few 7 minutes wins but macro v macro if held off by a competent player you will loose, especially if you loose your expo which is very likely with a counter attack.
I'm not saying the "standard" opening build can't be changed, ofc it can and will be. But this build is worse as a "new" standard since it feels too much like a 4 gate aka all-in.
I have to disagree with most of this. I've faced almost every one of these at ~1000 or higher and come out fine or better. If you're having troubles with it higher than that I'd like to know what they're doing different :s
The proxy stargate bit I find particularly confusing. You should have roaches in his base and 2 queens in your own base around the time the first void finishes.
On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote: Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
against 2 gate rush its perfect, but ya. trutling protoss its also not that good, u cant get in with canons at the front without losing many units. And my eco sucks until then compared to protoss and then he does a push and again i dont have enough units because not enough larva or mins.
Against Terran its oki, you force the Terran to build Marauders etc. thats good actually.
Well, when you play toss, your scout will be in the opponents base before you throw down your roach warren. Id say that this build works really well vs a 2 gate opening, but if you scout something other than 2 gate, its probably best to skip roach warren, pump a few more drones and expo. I've found this build "hard counters" (hate using that phrase, but it applies here) a 2 gate opening, but the econ sacrifice is too much vs a 4 gate or 3 gate robo or quick stargate or w/e.
must say, i've crushed plenty of protoss going 4gate with this build.
the timing has to be really, really precise. ppl who cant kill 3gate robo or 4gate or whatever with this build are probably doing something wrong, try refine ur timings.
On September 06 2010 11:09 Subversion wrote: must say, i've crushed plenty of protoss going 4gate with this build.
the timing has to be really, really precise. ppl who cant kill 3gate robo or 4gate or whatever with this build are probably doing something wrong, try refine ur timings.
My friend on stepes of war with a really well executed 1 portal 1 robo and countered it pretty well. By the exact time i start making the roaches he started making the immortal. He blocked the entrance with zealots and raped my roaches with the imortal.
I'm going to try to run up the ramps with the rallied lings and do some economic damage but i think this pretty much counters it as my expo is kinda late and even if i don't attack i won't be able to pump enoght lings to defeat his army.
I'm going to work a little more on the build and tell how it works out.
I've won against protoss with 3-4 gate push... if i see them having it. I've already won. I just kite my roaches... and continue making roach while my queen digs their grave for them. zealot vs roach... no contest.
But i do have problems with getting up a terran ramp. how do you do it?? i usually let army go up.. with lings first. then hit the supply depot(weakest bldg) i get thru no problem.. but once in.. thats the nasty part. by then.. usually my lings are dead and left with 5 roaches. with backup coming(usually 8 lings) but with even just 1-2 marauder and probably 4-6 marines. it just eats up my roaches. by the time the back up arrives. i have 2 roach left... ADVICE pls
On September 06 2010 12:39 sandman_sy wrote: ZERG NOOB Question:
Why the 9 Overlord?? why not the 10 Overlord??
I've won against protoss with 3-4 gate push... if i see them having it. I've already won. I just kite my roaches... and continue making roach while my queen digs their grave for them. zealot vs roach... no contest.
But i do have problems with getting up a terran ramp. how do you do it?? i usually let army go up.. with lings first. then hit the supply depot(weakest bldg) i get thru no problem.. but once in.. thats the nasty part. by then.. usually my lings are dead and left with 5 roaches. with backup coming(usually 8 lings) but with even just 1-2 marauder and probably 4-6 marines. it just eats up my roaches. by the time the back up arrives. i have 2 roach left... ADVICE pls
9 OL has hard evidence to be THE BEST economically (10 OL is slower in every way than 9 OL, and extractor trick(s) are only good if you do a 11/12 gas or something).
You put your Roaches out in front. They are the tanks. They take the damage and once you bust down the wall you run in your lings. Lings will kill marauders and 3 roaches kill marines in 1 volley.
On September 06 2010 12:39 sandman_sy wrote: ZERG NOOB Question:
Why the 9 Overlord?? why not the 10 Overlord??
I've won against protoss with 3-4 gate push... if i see them having it. I've already won. I just kite my roaches... and continue making roach while my queen digs their grave for them. zealot vs roach... no contest.
But i do have problems with getting up a terran ramp. how do you do it?? i usually let army go up.. with lings first. then hit the supply depot(weakest bldg) i get thru no problem.. but once in.. thats the nasty part. by then.. usually my lings are dead and left with 5 roaches. with backup coming(usually 8 lings) but with even just 1-2 marauder and probably 4-6 marines. it just eats up my roaches. by the time the back up arrives. i have 2 roach left... ADVICE pls
9 OL has hard evidence to be THE BEST economically (10 OL is slower in every way than 9 OL, and extractor trick(s) are only good if you do a 11/12 gas or something).
You put your Roaches out in front. They are the tanks. They take the damage and once you bust down the wall you run in your lings. Lings will kill marauders and 3 roaches kill marines in 1 volley.
9 Overlord huh.. VERY interesting.. this will change my entire game. I've done 10 OV and from silver to platinum i got. if i tweak this.. it could be my key to get to diamond.. stuck at 15-18 plat
Roaches tanks first then lings. .excellent idea. Now why didn't i think of that... heheheh thanx a bunch dude. FOR THE SWARM.
If you don't mind.. one more question.. i had a ZvP just 5 min ago. and this guys had his ramp covered by 2 stalkers. and 2 zealtos.. and 1 sentry... i think.. half of the ramp there was a gateway. when i pushed he did a forcefield and my roaches coudn't back my lings. to i had to do a tactical retreat.. contained him. Until he got blink.. he just harrassed the hell out of my roaches/lings. snipes some lings then runs.. kites.. i wish i had a nearby OV to spew creep but i didn't. so i ended up losing the game. coz he reached a critical number while i tried containing him. i was losing left and right of lings and sometimes stalker.
How would you have handled it. from the part where you found out his ramp is oh so hard to climb.
On September 06 2010 12:39 sandman_sy wrote: But i do have problems with getting up a terran ramp. how do you do it?? i usually let army go up.. with lings first. then hit the supply depot(weakest bldg) i get thru no problem.. but once in.. thats the nasty part. by then.. usually my lings are dead and left with 5 roaches. with backup coming(usually 8 lings) but with even just 1-2 marauder and probably 4-6 marines. it just eats up my roaches. by the time the back up arrives. i have 2 roach left... ADVICE pls
I usually just try to bust through the Terran wall with the 5 roaches and kill as many repairing SCV's as I can. If I break through, lings stream in. If not, I transition to midgame.
I looked at your 2nd replay and noticed your timing was off with the build. Your roaches came almost 30 seconds late. If you get the timing down they should come out at 5 minutes and you would have easily fended off those zealots and destroyed him afterward. Check out the replays from Newti on page 16 to see examples of the timing. I think once you execute it better you will win a lot more.
wow OP I don't noe how long it must've taken you to come up with this BO refined and stuff. To those who don't actually play Zerg, it is impossibly HARD to come up with a BO that's not an all-in rush or cheese of some kind.
We are accepted as the reactionary race and since so much stuff just rapes us if not scouted or mic-micro'd or w/e. This has to all be taken into account when playing as Z. See how many strat guides you can find on Liquipedia or general forums for Z.
Hell, I dont even think I follow a BO anymore, just standard 14-15g/14-15p every game. Then depending on the situation, I continue to tech towards what I need.
Wish I was T sometimes, so I can decide on what i'm gonna do before the game...."hmm should I open 3 rax or 2fact or 1-1-1? hmmmmmm........" W/e They decide will hold up well against what Z can throw at them. It's disheartening.
GJ and TY OP, will def try this and hopefully a refined BO like yours will push me over 1k diamond =]
This 5RR is great! I've been having ZvP problems lately and this really helps me deal with protoss. 3 wins for 3 games against protoss today with little problems. Thanks! IMO I think the strategy is best for protoss. Terran can either bunker up or take out a quick tank.
As a Tossplayer, i can say to you, that you should not always do this. Okay, ofcause, it's nice that you wanna have your own build but setting your plan out of your information ist jsut dumb... I saw the game vs kia, or something like this. The reasons why he lost: Wall in with pylon.he made sentries instead of stalker. You scouted your opponent. You saw 12gate, 13gas+wall in. Did you actually made the go cause of pylonwallin, instead of gate+core? Why should you play this strat in a case that he techs and walls? Getting another expo+queen if he is going void rays would be a better option.
if T scouts warren - he makes marauders = fail if T scouts push - he makes bunker = fail if T scouts push - he pulls workers off to help defend = fail After this push, your eco is horrible = fail After this push, your tech is delayed = fail
On September 07 2010 12:24 kickinhead wrote: if T scouts warren - he makes marauders = fail if T scouts push - he makes bunker = fail if T scouts push - he pulls workers off to help defend = fail After this push, your eco is horrible = fail After this push, your tech is delayed = fail
This is not more than a cheesey all-in....
Quite simply, no. Those who think this doesn't work (or who have failed trying it) are missing some basic adaptations that must be done against Terran and Protoss, though are not necessary against Zerg.
After your roaches move out, ESPECIALLY against terran, 3 things need to happen immediately.
1. Your expo gets placed. 2. You get your second extractor and put drones back on gas 3. You get lair tech.
Then, you can gauge your opponent; if he has more than one marauder, don't lose roaches; don't go for a break, but try to contain him as much as possible. Likewise, more than one stalker is troublesome. The immediate transition once your lair goes up is to add hydras and an extra queen, cause your opponent will counterpush ASAP; pretend you only have roaches, and crush him with hydras when he gets to your nat. Then you can nydus or use OL creep to win.
On September 07 2010 12:24 kickinhead wrote: if T scouts warren - he makes marauders = fail if T scouts push - he makes bunker = fail if T scouts push - he pulls workers off to help defend = fail After this push, your eco is horrible = fail After this push, your tech is delayed = fail
This is not more than a cheesey all-in....
if T scouts warren - he makes marauders = pull back, one batch of zerglings protects you from immediate push, drone and zerglings while teching. Compared to the normal zerg openings you have good scouting info, an expand that is well defended and gets up fast and an opponent on 1 base who is likely overreacting and nowhere near expanding.
if T scouts push - he makes bunker = break wall, walk past, if he just has marines you can kill a bunch of workers.
if T scouts push - he pulls workers off to help defend = kill workers ... yay ! Econ advantage is advantageous.
All of those require the T to scout in the first place.
After this push, your eco is horrible = how is it horrible ? after one batch of zerglings add a batch of drones ... then you have lots of drones and you can defend reapers and hellions better than most other builds.
After this push, your tech is delayed = you kill opposing tech builds, so everyone's tech is delayed.
I'm amazed at how well this build works. It's very crisp, although I know I'm missing some strange timing because sometimes I pop 5 roaches perfectly and the push lands at 5:50 like it should, and other times I need to wait for another 100-200 minerals for my 4th and 5th roaches.
So far I'm getting an incredible record with this build vP and a very good record vT, and it's forcing me to learn my Roach micro, as there's a lot more play with the units than I originally expected. All in all thanks for sharing such an awesome build, it's been a treat to show some early aggression as Zerg for a change!
I totally get that this build may work on opponents at around 1000 Points in Diamond, but it's just a weak build if scouted.
Zerg needs to take risks to have a good economy to win in the lategame against Terran, or Terran will easily pull ahead thanks to mules and early harrass. If this build gets scouted early and the opponent puts up one bunker, you're whole attack-force won't do anything. By this time, you've spent so much Larva on attacking-forces, that your eco won't just recover if you hatch 5 drones at a time.
See this build for what it is: A nice way to punish Terran players who blindly go reaper-all-in's (which are most of em) and don't really know how to do anything else.
Besides, on most short-distance 2-player-maps, where this build could work the best, Terran will go fast Marauder+Hellion-push - and I highly doubt this build will have any chance against that.
I have been pulling this off too. I am only a gold player and I took Forces advice on the Double Extractor trick and it goes extremely smooth after that.
IF someone does scout or manage to block then I find myself needing a plan fast!!! If they took alot of damage from them I immediately start looking into Mutas, if not then I guess I have to defend my expand with Roaches until I get Hydras/Mutas. My APM is good so I can do alot at once, I just don't win
On September 07 2010 15:10 kickinhead wrote: Besides, on most short-distance 2-player-maps, where this build could work the best, Terran will go fast Marauder+Hellion-push - and I highly doubt this build will have any chance against that.
I'm not sure that's is the case... then it becomes a micro battle, I think you have enough to hold out... I could be wrong. You still have a reasonably timed expo... so you should be roughly even, with adjustment to match him...
I'd like to see it tested it... but I have to think I would want roach/speedlings to fight off a mauders hellion push anyways... I can always put up crawlers if I feel neccesary. ( in truth what other option does zerg have? quick rush to muta sure, but it's not going to be in time unless maybe you skip queen)
the way I see this build, Zerg puts up a strong and as dynamic t1 army as it can and expos, push and dmg if possblie, if not stall either way usually tech up to muta
you can balance the numbers of roach/lings + crawlers as needed. This build is only weak vs air but the pressure it puts on limits options to tech there, and you're attack should give the neccesary scouting info to prepair.
On September 07 2010 15:10 kickinhead wrote: I totally get that this build may work on opponents at around 1000 Points in Diamond, but it's just a weak build if scouted.
So it's like any other build, and doesn't change the zerg race into nothing but 5rr?
Have done some minor tweaks to it. Basically going for 12/10 then overlord, ive think this build is slighter better? :-)
The Terran messed up his build early on. Your Roaches were around 20 seconds too late. He could've even had stim and 3 rax pumping if he went for that.
Again this build does work for mass marine, 5 rax reaper, 2 gate zealot but not much else and by the time you actually scout or attack you will loose your whole army to either a good forcefield or even loose your expansion vs a 3 rax stim build.
Since you have less production because of the "delayed" hatch compared too a 15 hatch any normal 50 food push from either T of P will destroy you. Any good timed banshees or voids will also kill your hatch because of no creep spread.
Soo many seems to think that since it's working for them most of the time it's a good build. Until I actually see this in a tournament I wouldn't claim this is such a good opening, a 14/14/15 is stronger in almost every way. It can still hold off crazy early things if played proper, 2 gate, fast reapers etc and destroys later all ins. It also puts you much further ahead in eco that a 5RR.
Have done some minor tweaks to it. Basically going for 12/10 then overlord, ive think this build is slighter better? :-)
The Terran messed up his build early on. Your Roaches were around 20 seconds too late. He could've even had stim and 3 rax pumping if he went for that.
Again this build does work for mass marine, 5 rax reaper, 2 gate zealot but not much else and by the time you actually scout or attack you will loose your whole army to either a good forcefield or even loose your expansion vs a 3 rax stim build.
Since you have less production because of the "delayed" hatch compared too a 15 hatch any normal 50 food push from either T of P will destroy you. Any good timed banshees or voids will also kill your hatch because of no creep spread.
Soo many seems to think that since it's working for them most of the time it's a good build. Until I actually see this in a tournament I wouldn't claim this is such a good opening, a 14/14/15 is stronger in almost every way. It can still hold off crazy early things if played proper, 2 gate, fast reapers etc and destroys later all ins. It also puts you much further ahead in eco that a 5RR.
Well this build compared to the 14/14/15 is just delaying the expand to accelerate the roaches.
So it's true the main builds it's good against are the ones where the earlier roaches can make a big difference defensively (2 gate, reapers, even banelings) or, and this is the point I believe you missed, OFFENSIVELY (banshees, thor drops). Look at pro games, look at scouting timings and early defenses on tech plays.
The main strength of this build is forcing the Terran into certain styles of play, In fact I am considering unvetoing LT and Kulas because thor drops would lose to it.
Given the build punishes TLO style early expands (the 3 marine hellion defense is not enough) I don't think the econ is particularly late. The key is to not sacrifice the army if you scout marauders. On the other hand 5 roaches in with the speedlings actually helps beat marine/marauder or marauder/hellion pushes (and even with a 14/16 you need to spend a lot on defense to counter that push).
Note as well that a) spine crawlers are not necessary which is econ saved (spine crawlers are very expensive defense when you think about it ... especially as it is necessary to place them well before a push so they are not always used) and b) your defense is mobile, you can go on the offensive really fast, destroy reinforcements, catch him in the open etc, this allows you to punish Terran expands and retain map control much better than spine crawlers ever will.
What the hell did you guys do? Every Terran I play on ladder now opens with 3 rax mass marine into 5 rax marine push. You guys must've really put a hurt on them for the past few weeks. Now, I come across this build and it's useless because no one is going with a build that falls to 5RR. Whether it's because people have gotten used to it, or that it was all bad luck (good luck for my opponents), it ain't working for me. Best of luck to you guys with this build!
I'm really finding so few wall-ins with a pylon or depo. With no weak point the roachs don't have the power to punch in and do the eco damage needed to make the build shine.
Still it's a nice build to have around for when I do see that depo
i personally have no problem when a zerg goes fast roaches against my 2gate. But it does get them decently into the middlegame and they definitely do not die from the early zealots. aside from maybe a few lings or drones if the build isn't timed correctly.
vs Protoss, I've found that it is extremely effective to use this 5RR and switch to Mutalisk. Most Protoss players will respond to your rush by making Immortals
Well, I said I would use it and I did. Works great to be honest. Terrific little strat to have in handy. Especially when you play a random player who is more often than not, going to cheese your face in. I don't think I will use it all the time because I feel like a reaper rusher or a 2 gater every time I do it. So I know how it feels =P. Good to have in the arsenal! It will be even stronger when the patch comes out.
On September 09 2010 12:34 Galleon.frigate wrote: Heh ya I've finding more resistance to it...
I'm really finding so few wall-ins with a pylon or depo. With no weak point the roachs don't have the power to punch in and do the eco damage needed to make the build shine.
Still it's a nice build to have around for when I do see that depo
Look at the Dimaga style ZvP thread.
I have found on most maps a scout (OL or a 12 ish drone on 4 player maps) gets there right at the decision point for the warren versus hatchery, the rest of the build is similar (you go 13 pool gas or gas pool, 15 OL, queen right away, then at 20 it's hatchery for the dimaga style or warren for the 5RR). Now when your scout gets there if you see a weak front (hellion/(1/1/1/) or 2 gate) you go 5RR, otherwise you drop expand immediately and get the evo (and immediately the 1/0 ling upgrades).
The 1/0 (or 0/1 if you prefer) lings destroy marine marauder as well as gateway pushes so they are a great opener and a strong economy for any transition. The 5RR is more situational but a good option to have if you scout a 2 gate or weak front.
When I watched a couple of matches between Idra and Silver, where I saw Silver place both his rax and factory below the ramp in both matches, I was actually screaming at the screen for Idra to do the build. Silver had three marines which would barely have been able to hit roaches if they had attacked the wall and would have been completely useless if they had decided to pick off the tech lab.
Now being Idra, he lost and hilariously rage-quit after a tank drop on the high-ground and mech pushing. But still, he is my hero and it makes me sad that he didn't use this.
I have been watching quite a few high level Zerg players (streams, tourneys, replays) and almost none of them will do the 5rr, they almost always look to expand even if for such a noob as myself it would seem the 5rr would win them the game. Not sure what the deal is because the metagame at that level is really asking for 5rr at least as 1 out 3 games attempt.
I think most high level Z players feel like they are cheesing when they do this build and that there is some dishonor in doing it. Even though P feels its their right to cannon up your ramp and rush Zealots <4 min mark. Oh well.
On September 10 2010 19:01 OdinPimphammer wrote: I have been watching quite a few high level Zerg players (streams, tourneys, replays) and almost none of them will do the 5rr, they almost always look to expand even if for such a noob as myself it would seem the 5rr would win them the game.
That's not entirely true, there are few top 200 players I've seen use it, Sen being the most notable example. It's just that, as is the mark with all good players, they only use the strategy in certain situations - as oppose to spaming it for easy ladder wins.
On September 09 2010 13:54 dapz wrote: i personally have no problem when a zerg goes fast roaches against my 2gate. But it does get them decently into the middlegame and they definitely do not die from the early zealots. aside from maybe a few lings or drones if the build isn't timed correctly.
I think thats the point, Im sure from the Zs perspective your 2 gate isn't bothering him and he gets into the mid game on even footing or ahead (depending on micro/decision making).
That's not entirely true, there are few top 200 players I've seen use it, Sen being the most notable example. It's just that, as is the mark with all good players, they only use the strategy in certain situations - as oppose to spaming it for easy ladder wins.
Having said this, would anyone care to comment on what certain situations specifically suggest this build should be invoked? Should it be the standard response to a 2-gate, and the reply for fast reapers? Anything else?
That's not entirely true, there are few top 200 players I've seen use it, Sen being the most notable example. It's just that, as is the mark with all good players, they only use the strategy in certain situations - as oppose to spaming it for easy ladder wins.
Having said this, would anyone care to comment on what certain situations specifically suggest this build should be invoked? Should it be the standard response to a 2-gate, and the reply for fast reapers? Anything else?
I think if you look back on the last few pages, everyone pretty much is commenting about said situations
On September 09 2010 12:34 Galleon.frigate wrote: Heh ya I've finding more resistance to it...
I'm really finding so few wall-ins with a pylon or depo. With no weak point the roachs don't have the power to punch in and do the eco damage needed to make the build shine.
Still it's a nice build to have around for when I do see that depo
Look at the Dimaga style ZvP thread.
I have found on most maps a scout (OL or a 12 ish drone on 4 player maps) gets there right at the decision point for the warren versus hatchery, the rest of the build is similar (you go 13 pool gas or gas pool, 15 OL, queen right away, then at 20 it's hatchery for the dimaga style or warren for the 5RR). Now when your scout gets there if you see a weak front (hellion/(1/1/1/) or 2 gate) you go 5RR, otherwise you drop expand immediately and get the evo (and immediately the 1/0 ling upgrades).
The 1/0 (or 0/1 if you prefer) lings destroy marine marauder as well as gateway pushes so they are a great opener and a strong economy for any transition. The 5RR is more situational but a good option to have if you scout a 2 gate or weak front.
this opening achieves nothing. I playtested this (1200 MMR rated zerg) a ton in both custom games and ladder and this is what I gained as insight:
against toss the roaches will be fodder once the cyber core gets out (which even with a 2 gate opening is too fast for the roaches to do any real damage since they're slow as hell off creep), plus you'll be behind on minerals which you'll inevitably need to get out mass lings ass the tosses army will mostly be immortal/stalker/sentry with very few zealots when he pushes.
often times when the toss scouts the roach warren (read: always) even with a two gate the first stalker will be out right as the roaches reach his base (yes, they're THAT slow) with the exception beeing steppes of war, delta quadrant closed positions and maybe lt/metalopolis closed positions (on metalopolis just 6-3 and 9-12 starting positions obviously).
against terran it's just terrible. if the terran goes reaper opening but scouts early roaches, he has like 0 problems to switch to one of two strats: invisible banshees, tank/marine (yes that actually counters roaches pretty fucking hard unless you make 0 drones and focus 100% on roach/ling production) or pure marauder push. the problem here is mostly that you won't even be remotely able to scout it if you're playing against a smart terran so you're basically gambling from that point on.
it's one more build where you sacrifice even more econ (Yes, that hatchery will come even later) in order to be a little bit safer vs certain openings. but in my opinion, speedling opening achieves the same thing, but with a far bigger econ advantage and earlier expansion.
i just tested this strategy in a ZvZ (plat league) and i could contain him perfectly in his one base with constant ling roach pressure and he ended loosing because he got mined out... i side teched to hydras in case he went muta but he didnt so i continued roach ling... thanks for the strat btw
That's not entirely true, there are few top 200 players I've seen use it, Sen being the most notable example. It's just that, as is the mark with all good players, they only use the strategy in certain situations - as oppose to spaming it for easy ladder wins.
Having said this, would anyone care to comment on what certain situations specifically suggest this build should be invoked? Should it be the standard response to a 2-gate, and the reply for fast reapers? Anything else?
It works well against tech builds and some early pushes. The problem is that it is hard to spot some of the tech builds (like the difference between a fast VR and a 4 gate) early enough.
General things that trigger the transition to 5RR for me are: - 2 gate - Barracks with no addon at front - Barracks+ factory spotted (this requires the factory to be close to the front or part of the wall). - Maybe reapers ... be careful though because reapers become marauders really fast.
For a 2 gate you don't need to win the game, just the fact that they 2 gated and you got a nice safe expand means you are ahead going into the midgame.
For the cyber you can still push, just retreat if you see too many stalkers (or stalker and a sentry as you don't want to get FFed on the ramp). If the stalkers chase down their ramp, turn around and destroy them with the speedling/roach, if he doesn't chase, transition to mid game (again, toss doesn't have an expand).
I tend to do some threat with roaches against protoss (Not so much terran, because marines stay in the ball with marauders) to force sentrys and stalkers.
With just 8 speedlings doing a surround to the ranged units and microing the roaches, you can really punish him.
Is a battle that comes down to micro. But you have the advantage because you choose when and where to engage and speedlings excel at cuting reinforcements.
Nothing more jummy than getting a couple of strain stalkers or even zealots.
Mostly because a good protoss can really force spines, roaches and zearlings in order to save the natural, and in that time he will be able expand freely and get ahead in probes with cronoboost.
Sometimes is better to wait a little and forcing him with a nice mix of speedlings/roaches really give you the freedom to move arround and keep him on his toes.
I hate doing things that basically shout out "WE ARE GONNA FIGHT AT MY PLACE".
I think this will be scary vs P when the next patch comes out because you're pretty much forced to 10gate everytime vs Z. When I 10gate it always seems to slow down my 4 gate so that this push will come out before my gates finish ( just barely on the last match, I lost to this going 10gate into 4 gate once I scouted he wasnt rushing)
Well there's 31 pages, and I am curious if there was ever any discussion regarding what to do when the other person (we'll say protoss) puts down a gateway and cybernetics core for a wall. You can't exactly break that down, and a stalker has twice the range of a roach. If a sentry pops out then you're just completely stuck there.
What happened in a game just now is the protoss player went phoenixes and just started sniping my queens and overlords. From there on out it's just a losing battle, and I don't see how one would be able to recover from that.
just gotta say i love this strategy VS protoss. just won my 6th game in a row, 4 of the games were won outright during the rush, 2 i had to take advantage of the fact that i contained him in 1 base and macro my way to victory but a win is a win. thanks
On September 12 2010 02:06 blgdinger wrote: Well there's 31 pages, and I am curious if there was ever any discussion regarding what to do when the other person (we'll say protoss) puts down a gateway and cybernetics core for a wall. You can't exactly break that down, and a stalker has twice the range of a roach. If a sentry pops out then you're just completely stuck there.
What happened in a game just now is the protoss player went phoenixes and just started sniping my queens and overlords. From there on out it's just a losing battle, and I don't see how one would be able to recover from that.
I have a game where my 5RR got countered at first (cyber core) so I transitioned into something else, if the rush doesnt work but you manage to save your army you can usually keep them scared into 1-basing and you can take the economic advantage and out-macro at that point:
On September 12 2010 02:06 blgdinger wrote: Well there's 31 pages, and I am curious if there was ever any discussion regarding what to do when the other person (we'll say protoss) puts down a gateway and cybernetics core for a wall. You can't exactly break that down, and a stalker has twice the range of a roach. If a sentry pops out then you're just completely stuck there.
What happened in a game just now is the protoss player went phoenixes and just started sniping my queens and overlords. From there on out it's just a losing battle, and I don't see how one would be able to recover from that.
You are right. you don't break a core and gateway.. what you do is contain him, don't waste your army, if you cant bust in.. and prepare for a air raid. Vray or Phoenix... i usually go with muta when i see this. Having him contained in 1 base means 2 things.. air or collosus. so having a spire counters both easily. Basically 2 base vs 1 base.. OUTMACRO him
some french guy claiming a counter to this strat.. i have no idea what he's saying but i just look at the gameplay.... if you see this.. what do you do??
I'd abort the attack or hit the destructable rocks instead (hit rocks if there are any, abort if there aint a backdoor). it's his sim city that kills the push
Go to around 1minute in and look at this core and gateway placement. It causes your forces to be narrowed through a chokepoint made of his buildings. The zerg player also didn't beeline straight for the mineral line after breaking in (and didn't wait for his lings to be a bit closer before trying to get in). This set him rather behind as he lost all his units without really doing anything to hamper the protoss, and the toss just moved a stalker to block off the 2nd wave of reinforcements.
His options should have been to bust the pylon with the roaches to avoid the whole funneling effect of the wall off, or even better to attack the back door instead.
But yeah, good sim city can be annoying for us to deal with. Sad thing is if that zerg had gone in through the backdoor it'd probably have been GG for the toss as he could've moved straight to the worker line with his lines and use his roaches to delay the voids/stalkers/zealots from messing with the lings (and then pull ahead in worked coutn and out macro)
Yeah, i dont get why he would need to claim a counter, there are plenty of counters, its just that the current metagame means that people tech too much against zerg as they see the early game as weak, and you punish them for it. Just chucking out 3 stalkers will GG the 5RR, but that doesnt happen much. In that game i agree with the above, abort the attack, get some extra queens, consolidate your expand and just play that game as normal.
some french guy claiming a counter to this strat.. i have no idea what he's saying but i just look at the gameplay.... if you see this.. what do you do??
A few thoughts regarding that video/counter strat.
1) - the protoss would essentially have to do this build blind because it would require the protoss to avoid extra gates/units really early just so there's enough minerals/gas to get the voids out fast enough. This is doubled if the zerg keeps the protoss scout from seeing the roach warren, and better yet if they keep them from seeing there's no natural going down. (which is pretty easy to do by the way). the one gate into core into stargate while having both gases early - there's next to no defense early. A baneling bust would mess up this protoss because the voids just take so damn long to kill zerglings. Also there are solid econ builds that don't see a expo hatch going down till after 20...so seeing a zerg on one base after 20 does not necessarily mean early aggression. If a zerg did a standard 20-22 hatch with lings and an extra queen or two the fast void ray is useless save for killing a few overlords caught outside your base.
2) If i did do a 5RR and the protoss GUESSED right, and I quickly found that my initial roaches became void ray fodder, i would do one of two things. a) get a 3rd, 4th, 5th ect queen out while extending creep towards my natural. I'd stay on one base but essentially ignore building any military units. Instead I'd power drones like crazy, well past 30. The Toss isn't going to have the land army to punish your power droning and he's not going to be able to do much void damage vs your queens. Then when creep can enable my queens to move freely between the main and natural I'd go expo and be intantly saturated on 2 bases. I would then move to corruptor/mutas/lings.
or
b) Knowing that he's basically undefended save for voids, I'd throw down a baneling nest and start spamming zerglings. This is an all, but I feel like the protoss would be hard pressed to stop it with only one gateway up to pump zealots/sentry. The banelings would be to take down the blocking zealot (if he rebuilt it) or the blocking pilon (if the wall is solid) I'd then just suicide my zerglings into his main and target his drones while constantly rallying zerglings into his base. If i got to the point during or slightly before this attack where I had an extra 300 minerals i would expand because his void is going to have to stay at home and defend the push, giving you time to get it up and hopefully for your queens(min 2 at this point) to get creep to the expo.
Summary: - I think the toss build counters the 5RR if you know its coming, but it would lose to other builds - and there's not a great way for the toss to scout exactly what you're planning. - Even if my roaches exploded into goo I feel zerg can still pull the game out just because queens are so awesome vs protoss air and the toss is so weakened (infrastructure and ground army wise ) - Void rays suck vs lings
plat 1v1 player here. I have to say this. I won 12 straight games with the 5RR. This strategy is incredibly. Yes of course it can be defended, but since the scouting probe dies to only 2 lings, your opponent thinks he is pretty safe only seeing a 13 pool. Wonderful strategy very well thought about and explicitly explained. Kudos OP
On September 14 2010 04:57 truckerdaves wrote: plat 1v1 player here. I have to say this. I won 12 straight games with the 5RR. This strategy is incredibly. Yes of course it can be defended, but since the scouting probe dies to only 2 lings, your opponent thinks he is pretty safe only seeing a 13 pool. Wonderful strategy very well thought about and explicitly explained. Kudos OP
It is pretty freaking effective in platinum I am on a 7-streak right now myself. I am sure I'll be in diamond soon with this strat alone. Just gotta get it down better vs Terran. It seems Terran can counter it pretty easy with a bunker though. I have yet to lose to a Protoss using this :D
Be prepared to lose a lot once you get artificially ranked higher in diamond because of your win streaks.
I ended up having to completely rethink the way I played, because it put me from Plat rank 1 to Diamond rank 1 about 800 + points. The 10 game win streaks went away pretty hard and I had to actually learn how to play. Now that I did I am 11-1 during my last 12 games in Diamond 700+ points climbing back up.
On September 14 2010 04:57 truckerdaves wrote: plat 1v1 player here. I have to say this. I won 12 straight games with the 5RR. This strategy is incredibly. Yes of course it can be defended, but since the scouting probe dies to only 2 lings, your opponent thinks he is pretty safe only seeing a 13 pool. Wonderful strategy very well thought about and explicitly explained. Kudos OP
It is pretty freaking effective in platinum I am on a 7-streak right now myself. I am sure I'll be in diamond soon with this strat alone. Just gotta get it down better vs Terran. It seems Terran can counter it pretty easy with a bunker though. I have yet to lose to a Protoss using this :D
Seems like you could just run past the bunker, assuming he didn't wall up with it?
On September 14 2010 16:24 OdinPimphammer wrote: Be prepared to lose a lot once you get artificially ranked higher in diamond because of your win streaks.
I ended up having to completely rethink the way I played, because it put me from Plat rank 1 to Diamond rank 1 about 800 + points. The 10 game win streaks went away pretty hard and I had to actually learn how to play. Now that I did I am 11-1 during my last 12 games in Diamond 700+ points climbing back up.
Just something to think about.
Winning streak still going, still in platinum, 11 games now, last 5 or so opponents are all diamond. I've had 4 games today where I had to transition because I got countered (2 terran 2 protoss) getting bunkers/stalkers, just want to add that i transitioned just fine throughout the rest of the game because i get an expo up as im pushing.. all games lasted between 25-40 mins and I can play just fine. I don't just use this to try and win outright but it is a very great tactic for FORCING terran into marauders/turtle and toss into stalkers/turtle. It's nice to be able to dictate THEIR gameplay, I don't think i have to COMPLETELY rethink the way i play..at this point increasing apm is probably my biggest weakness (70-90). I legitimately feel like i belong in diamond and look forward to the challenges ahead. Losing when i do get into diamond will make me better. Rank 3 Platinum 43-29 (~800) now, alot of credit to this opening.
On September 14 2010 04:57 truckerdaves wrote: plat 1v1 player here. I have to say this. I won 12 straight games with the 5RR. This strategy is incredibly. Yes of course it can be defended, but since the scouting probe dies to only 2 lings, your opponent thinks he is pretty safe only seeing a 13 pool. Wonderful strategy very well thought about and explicitly explained. Kudos OP
It is pretty freaking effective in platinum I am on a 7-streak right now myself. I am sure I'll be in diamond soon with this strat alone. Just gotta get it down better vs Terran. It seems Terran can counter it pretty easy with a bunker though. I have yet to lose to a Protoss using this :D
Seems like you could just run past the bunker, assuming he didn't wall up with it?
I can't remember the games with the bunkers exactly but i am pretty sure they had them at a distance that hit roaches close to supply depot but i cant hit the bunker back due to roaches 3 range. At this point I generally power drone and try to keep him from expanding as long as possible, seems to work pretty good.
Wow thanks for this great build! I was having asstonnes of problems creating early game pressure vs T and P and this is the perfect solution. I love the fact that this significantly delays the protoss 4gate (which for me has given me lotss of problems) and also gives you full scouting information on their base (assuming you get in, which i have pretty much every single time) so that you aren't caught off guard by VRs. It has helped me elevate my game and i finally managed to crack 1200 diamond just now. I don't see what all the criticism is all about. Why don't you people give it a shot before theorycrafting all this bs.
Aslo when i see a toss going for phoenix when i bust in just makes me smile :D
[edit] Also anyone have some replays of this build vs zerg? I'm just not sure how it'd work out against the usual zvz stuff (personally i'm an overpool evocrawler kinda guy in zvz myself, but knowing how to use this against zerg will help when i go against randoms that spawn as zerg)
This is just another option, it is not the savior of Z play. Too many 5RR zealots in here. I don't think fistdantilus meant this to be the "be all, end all" of Z openings. Try this in 1000+ diamond and you will get raped for free.
some french guy claiming a counter to this strat.. i have no idea what he's saying but i just look at the gameplay.... if you see this.. what do you do??
He's not claiming a counter, actually... Just happens to be a replay where it's VR rush vs 5RR ("contre" = french for "versus/against").
It's actually kind of interesting... I think he had mixed feelings how zerg used his 5 roaches (you could argue that he should've gone for the pylon, esp. after the zealot went down with the zerglings on the way), and he pointed out the mistake when zerg ran the roaches into the base, since they were just sitting ducks to that first VR as they passed through that long choke.
So when that craps out, zerg is sitting on a dozen or so lings, but at least has the evo chamber and an extra queen coming out. The commentator says that those decisions are good, but argues that cancelling the fast expo was his fatal mistake... mostly because it was the only way he could've made up for his previous problems, most notably the econ hit he took for all those lings and generally mucking up his macro (note the 3 unused larva, poor use of injects, etc.) Zerg was doing everything else okay (including getting hydras) but was so far behind economically that there was no way he was going to be able to deal with the 8+ VRs. Finally, though his FF was good, his initial decision to fight the VRs off creep (and so arguably his creep mismanagement as well!) pretty much sealed it.
The commentator also made the snarky comment that this is where the scrubby zergs would whine about VRs being OP or something, but that the reality was that he misplayed it. I'd be inclined to agree.
On September 17 2010 03:20 IPA wrote: This is just another option, it is not the savior of Z play. Too many 5RR zealots in here. I don't think fistdantilus meant this to be the "be all, end all" of Z openings. Try this in 1000+ diamond and you will get raped for free.
1100+ diamond myself. It still works.
It is not the be all, end all but it is a very nice option even over 1000 diamond. My main use for it is as a transition off of the Dimaga build (speedlings with upgrades) when I scout a weak looking front (2 gate or pylons used in the wall on a close spawn map).
Just remember it is not an all in, you need to set up your expand as you attack.
So i've been attempting this build, but failed every time and for some reason i can't see my own mistakes. My timings seem to be fairly accurate compared to the tmings of OP's replays.
Could some of you more experienced players give me a few pointers as to what i am doing wrong?
1. you let the enemy scout your roach warren - this often means you will be greated by stalkers/marauders. Avoid getting scouted like that. In this game you were kinda lucky there still were just zealots, although you probably called up the immortals with that.
2. You didn't micro your roaches at all. You just stood there taking massive hits from the zealots. Kite them with move - s - move - s to deal way more damage than they do. Just because you heard roaches are good against zealots doesnt mean you can just run into them. Imho this was the main point you lost, because you didn't deal any damage with those roaches. And you NEED to deal significant damage with those first roaches, even if you just reduce the enemys army size. Suiciding your lings into the zealot-line at the backdoor wasnt that clever too - just a bad deal.
3. Despite focusing on getting out the roaches quickly, use your remaining ressources better. If you want to support with lings, get speed (13 pool, 13 gas if you want the first 100 gas for speed; 13 pool, 14/15 gas otherwise). Maybe expand as soon as you got the minerals for it after your initial roaches.
Thank you, I approve this build (initially). Worked for me just fine vs. a 2-gate push by protoss into quick tech and vs. a terran that tried to tech quickly into 2 starports. :-)
I cant understand why more tourney players dont attempt this opening. It seems most are content with FEing and then banking everything on the ability to defend the initial pushes from P or Z. This is resulting in many losses for Z players in tourneys to lesser opponents IMHO.
I know that if us regular Joe's are getting good results with this that these tourney participants can probably refine it even more. Ahh well.
On September 20 2010 00:04 OdinPimphammer wrote: I cant understand why more tourney players dont attempt this opening. It seems most are content with FEing and then banking everything on the ability to defend the initial pushes from P or Z. This is resulting in many losses for Z players in tourneys to lesser opponents IMHO.
I know that if us regular Joe's are getting good results with this that these tourney participants can probably refine it even more. Ahh well.
I look at tournament play and see a lot of parallels with high level BW play. The idea is to hold of a rush with the least amount of forces so you can drone more. 5RR is an opening, but not a very economic opening (even if it transitions to macro-oriented play, you're still behind in the worker count if your opponent was able to hold it off with the least amount of units on their end).
I am curious, though, how far a player can get doing a well-executed 5RR...
I had problems showing early aggression as Zerg (albeit, in the Practice League) and I just used this strategy in my first placement match on LT vs. a Terran. It worked beautifully. I didn't execute it exactly like you, I had about 4 zerglings in my attack party along with 5 roaches and 1 trailing behind but I tore apart his marines and SCVs before he lifted off then I just quick teched to Mutas and finished him off.
So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Inevitably, I tried it again my next match vs. a Toss and got absolutely raped by a 4-gate 90% stalker army. He didn't scout my R Warren, so he must have just been going stalker anyway, but 7 minutes in he had 9 stalkers and just raped me.
On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote: So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent.
On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote: So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent.
How'd you do in that recent tournament?
At his level, yes you do have to be 1500 to be competent. I don't see any reason for him to start trying silly roach all in's that 1000 diamonds (which are probably equivalent to D/D+) are raving about. There's a reason no one is using it in tournaments; it probably doesn't work.
It's horrendously weak against any type of stalker or marauder play. It's weak to reapers since after the first reaper scouts the roach warren, marauders come out very soon. I only see this beating players that don't scout and blindly get mass zealots.
On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote: So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent.
How'd you do in that recent tournament?
Honestly, an expansion after 30 for a Zerg is pretty much disastrous against any competent opponent.
I just feel that this build doesn't live up to all the hype. It's a solid timing attack that might work to change the meta-game but it really doesn't have much staying power once Ts and Ps learn how to fight it off, just like how Zergs learned to fight off hellion openings.
On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote: So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent.
How'd you do in that recent tournament?
Wow rofl.
This build is good until you get past the mediocre P's and T's that don't play stupid (i.e. responding to roach warren with marauders and a bunker as T, and making 1 (one) sentry as P). Then you end up with a later expansion than a speedling expand (let's not get into hatch first or pool/hatch) and an equivalent amount of map control for a greater investment :/
Granted, it's not really an allin as he says IMO, but it does put you considerably behind.
This comes from a zerg who HAS tried it before, btw.
So far this build has been great. I do not expect it to "carry" me through the higher leagues, but it is a great way to get micro/macro practice, especially if the initial rush fails and you get a chance to play on two or three bases.
15 hatch, 14 pool is OBVIOUSLY NOT the way to go as any noob can see by the results that Zerg has been getting in EVERY tournament since release.
Your "Pro" idea doesn't work, so how about try something new? Nah, that would be stupid, right?
Every P and T player can do whatever they want early game and abuse the shit out of it to beat Zerg, being greedy with tech, FEing, dropping pylons in our base, eating our drones with hellions , the list goes on and on. Nowadays you have P and T doing absurd stuff to Zerg, like fast Thor rushing and then dropping them in your mineral lines, rushing to banshees and raping your soul. The list goes on and on because they know they will never get pressured early by top level Zergs.
Maybe you are right, but I havent seen anyone even try to make it work at that level on any replays or streams.
On September 21 2010 09:06 KandLeMaN wrote: Inevitably, I tried it again my next match vs. a Toss and got absolutely raped by a 4-gate 90% stalker army. He didn't scout my R Warren, so he must have just been going stalker anyway, but 7 minutes in he had 9 stalkers and just raped me.
If you nail the timings properly, there is no way the Protoss should have that many stalkers by the time you reach their wall. If you do see them massing stalkers, however, you'll want to pull your roaches back, mass speedlings, and lay down 3-4 spine crawlers at your expansion. Even though you did not deal the damage you wanted, it is better to conserve your army and protect your expansion than suicide your roaches.
On September 21 2010 09:06 KandLeMaN wrote: Inevitably, I tried it again my next match vs. a Toss and got absolutely raped by a 4-gate 90% stalker army. He didn't scout my R Warren, so he must have just been going stalker anyway, but 7 minutes in he had 9 stalkers and just raped me.
If you nail the timings properly, there is no way the Protoss should have that many stalkers by the time you reach their wall. If you do see them massing stalkers, however, you'll want to pull your roaches back, mass speedlings, and lay down 3-4 spine crawlers at your expansion. Even though you did not deal the damage you wanted, it is better to conserve your army and protect your expansion than suicide your roaches.
Well I finished up my placement matches and now I'm all demoralized cuz I went 2-3 but got owned by that Stalker build and then by a terran MMM + Thors which I had no counter to. I attacked off creep and didn't fungal or NP which would have made a difference but damn bronze sucks
I think I need to incorporate hydras into my army quicker and definitely tech to ultras. I have been using too many mutas/corruptors which work sometimes, and othertimes just get owned by stimmed marines + thors.
On September 05 2010 18:58 Nuage wrote: That's why I have switched back to a classic 14 extractor, 14 pool build: to keep most options open.
That way, you can still go for fast roaches if you want to, with a minor delay - or do anything else, depending on your scouting.
14 Extractor 14 Pool 15 Overlord 16 Queen 18 Zerglings around 20 / 21 Roach Warren (when Queen is halfway done, as usual) Overlord when Queen pop 5 or 6 Roach when overlord, roach warren & inject finish
The roaches are out at 5'10, approximatly. I tend to research zergling speed just after I've done the roaches, but it can probably be done a bit soonner.
What I love with that build is that you retain the possibility of an early roach rush, but you are not bound to it, and you can change for the other zergs openers (say, sling / bling or fast expand) without any trouble nor delay.
I was actually just going to post this. I've been playing around with this using 14E/14P, which is pretty standard for zerg these days, and can lead into just about anything from this 5RR pressure to one-base mutas, and the timing is *very* close to what I'm seeing on the 13 pool/13 extractor replays, with 14e/14p being somewhere between 3 and 5 seconds behind 13p/13e.
I don't know why that's true, it seems it should be further behind than that, but that's what I'm measuring.
Being just a hair slower, while keeping all options wide open, not really giving anything at all away to your opponent's initial scout, and getting a slightly better economy to boot, makes 14e14p seem very attractive when doing this.
Also, just about every replay I've watched, people are putting the warren down too early. If you put it down when the queen is about 70-75% done, it pops up just in time, and you get an extra mineral trip or two from the drone building the warren.
A couple more advantages to extractor first:
Yu can start speed really fast (as soon as the pool is done, just like a standard speedling build), so any reinforcement lings will be getting to the front fast.
You can leave the workers in gas, for I think what will be a very nice transition into mutas, possibly even transitioning into a slightly slower 1base muta, although you could certainly throw down the expansion first. (more testing required here obviously)
I'm also confused by the prevalence of people saying that the roaches pop ~5:40. The roaches should be popping right after the 5 minute mark if you're doing this build properly.
On September 22 2010 21:53 JrK wrote: 5:40 was from the original build. It's been refined really well since (and the OP has been edited to reflect that). Its much sooner than 540 now.
One of the things i love about it. It's been tried and tested and slowly refined into the build it is now :D
I've found the build to be very effective on enemy toss going for fast phoenixes too. I don;t understand why people abort if they see a core go down. I personally see it as a good thing as it means high chance of teching from the toss
Granted I'm just a mid diamond scrub but the only loss i've ever had with this build was in Z v Z. It's extremely effective vs Toss. Even if the toss goes stalker heavy you just use the extra round of larva to pump an extra lings.
Figured out why I was only 3-ish seconds later with 14e14p. It's cause I wasn't actually doing 14e14p, but 14e13p. Still seems to be slightly more economic (with 13p13e I was slightly short on minerals unless all the timings were perfect, but wasn't ever close to being short with 14e13p), doesn't give anything away, and is still a good foundation for a wide variety of starts.
This build will work incredibly well against players of a certain level. You'll likely win most games; however, once you get to the next level of opponents, you will lose and lose badly.
Borderline all-in...late expo...It might be best used as a surprise semi all-in in a BoX series. If you're Plat or low Diamond -- Roach away! Just realize that it might cripple your overall Z game in the future. I'd rather practice something else. You WILL get punished for this against good players.
On September 23 2010 02:52 IPA wrote: This build will work incredibly well against players of a certain level. You'll likely win most games; however, once you get to the next level of opponents, you will lose and lose badly.
Borderline all-in...late expo...It might be best used as a surprise semi all-in in a BoX series. If you're Plat or low Diamond -- Roach away! Just realize that it might cripple your overall Z game in the future. I'd rather practice something else. You WILL get punished for this against good players.
Can you post some replays of good players punishing you when you use this build?
I'm not too sure how 1.1 will affect it. On the one hand we're likely to see less 2gate zealot antics (which this build did well against), though i've got the feeling it's likely to promote more mass stalker play (since mass blink stalker in late game is extremely effective and you can add collosi onto it too) and sadly mass stalker does tend to hurt this build.
Might see more fast forge+cannon play actually, since a lot of toss seem to be worried about being 6pooled. That might set us back a little as 5RR doesn't deal with cannons very well (though since they'd be doing forge+cannon first it might set them back a little too).
Ah well, all just speculation at this point since i haven't been able to play today. I'm hoping there won't be cannons about as they make my roaches all sadface
Why is it borderline all in, when in my replays I see that he has a temporarily boosted income (4-6 workers ahead for 2-3 minutes), and when you build your cycle of drones if you don't insta-win, you equalise in worker count AND have an expo up?
And if he doesn't push, you can often even get another cycle of drones in and streak ahead, since you have 5 roaches and12 lings as a seed for a solid defense force when you see him push.
Where's the massive eco hit?
The only builds that CRUSH it economically are so slow that they die instantly to the 5RR. (NB this is assuming you are applying judgement and aren;t trying it on Desert Oasis. This is a rush build and works on rush maps or close positions only)
Hey! I've been developing a 16CC fast expanding build against Zerg, and this seems to be the most troublesome thing by far. I normally get 16CC, then orbital, and then 2 more barracks and then a gas. When this rush hits, I will have one bunker full of marines and 2 marines outside it and I really have trouble holding the rush off. Does this build just lose vs 5RR? Might I be able to hold it off if I go gas right after my Orbital and add the 2rax later and get a faster Marauder out?
It probably will lose or at the very least take major damage from a 5RR. All fast expand builds are hurt by early agression builds.
Your wall might help you survive i guess, if you have the expo cc and rax as part of it (with the bunker and other marines behind it). basicaly make your wall baneling-proof (eg build wall with bigger buildings than depots/bunkers) and it should ward the roaching zerg away. A full bunker + 2 marines outside will inflict enough casualties to prevent the roaches from busting in if your wall is properly made. If you lack marauders to scare off roaches then your sim city is even more important. solid walls aren't cost effective for us to break down.
You could always float the cc off later once you're expo is actually secure.
Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower.
On September 24 2010 01:05 Uranium wrote: Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower.
They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster.
On September 24 2010 01:05 Uranium wrote: Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower.
They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster.
Makes sense, I was thinking an 11 pool might be too early for Roach production since they are 2x as expensive as lings. I'm gonna have to try out the 13 pool build tonight. 20 seconds earlier on the roaches could make a HUUUUGE difference. Agh I'm so excited!!
On September 24 2010 01:05 Uranium wrote: Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower.
They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster.
Makes sense, I was thinking an 11 pool might be too early for Roach production since they are 2x as expensive as lings. I'm gonna have to try out the 13 pool build tonight. 20 seconds earlier on the roaches could make a HUUUUGE difference. Agh I'm so excited!!
This is basically all-in for 20 seconds. It could be much more effective but better hope that isn't a forge toss or a marauder terran waiting for you to suicide your all-in roaches.
Lol I tried this on desert oasis and got horribly countered by void rays catching my roaches in the middle of the map. This is the 2nd time I've lost to protoss with this build in about 25 games, but I'm also in ~850 diamond now so my opponents are smarter =[ can't expect this build to work forever i suppose. Even on a small map I got hard countered by void ray rush once before, how do you transition once you see VR? basically those roaches are dead and you get set pretty far behind when this happens, how do you recover?
I'm using this strat quite often atm and doing well with it. I loose with it too but thats because of me making the wrong decisions or macro/micro bad. I am at high Platinum and here are two replays vs Protoss:
In the first game I encountered a toss who went for 2 gate opening and 5 zealot rush. My roaches popped before he even was in my main. This game was on Blistering Sands. So I defended his rush and he had to retreat. I made my counterpush through the backdoor rocks with the roaches and had speedlings rallied to his main. He already had a stargate up but I got him with his pants down and took the game:
The second game was on Xel Naga Caverns and there I encountered a protoss who was going a kinda 3 gate robo into expand build. I couldn't break his wall with the initial 5 roach push and had to retreat after loosing a couple of roaches in the damn forcefields. Got behind in economy then because I had already produced a lot of lings, just for the case I would have been able to break through his wall. This wasn't the case so I got my expo up running quite ok-ish and immidiately teched to lair and then Hydras. I started a second push with hydra+roach and was crushed by forcefields but I managed to take out his first collosus. Then I switched to Mutas and kept harrasing him getting a lot of probe kills. I finally attacked with a superior army after taking the gold expo and crushed his expo and forces. Kinda back and forth game with a nice quick counter attack by speedlings killing a lot of his probes in his main after he was pushing to my first expo with mass zealots and some sentries:
On September 24 2010 01:05 Uranium wrote: Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower.
They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster.
Makes sense, I was thinking an 11 pool might be too early for Roach production since they are 2x as expensive as lings. I'm gonna have to try out the 13 pool build tonight. 20 seconds earlier on the roaches could make a HUUUUGE difference. Agh I'm so excited!!
This is basically all-in for 20 seconds. It could be much more effective but better hope that isn't a forge toss or a marauder terran waiting for you to suicide your all-in roaches.
Lol I tried this on desert oasis and got horribly countered by void rays catching my roaches in the middle of the map. This is the 2nd time I've lost to protoss with this build in about 25 games, but I'm also in ~850 diamond now so my opponents are smarter =[ can't expect this build to work forever i suppose. Even on a small map I got hard countered by void ray rush once before, how do you transition once you see VR? basically those roaches are dead and you get set pretty far behind when this happens, how do you recover?
DO is probably one of the worst maps for it due to the insanely looooooooooooooooooooooooong ground distance (so roaches get to the wall later and reinforcements take longer to arrive).
Not sure what you mean about void ray rushers beating you. The void (if they're rushing it) should be out shortly after you break into his base. Once you spot it grab a 2nd queen asap (if you haven't already) and pop down an evo chamber soe you can get spores.
He'll have to make a choice at this point. Use the void to kill your ground forces and save his base, or leave his base to it's fate and try a base trade. if he decides to stay and fight just focus on crippling his econ and production. This is also essentially a free win since it buys you time to get the 2nd queen out, as well as spores (not to mention his econ is in tatters so you can outmacro him later). so in responce to the question, you transition by getting 2nd queen (and maybe spores) for anti-air, pump some drones and tech up then crush him with macro since he'll have been crippled by your initial attack. don't worry about the roaches and lings dying. as long as they inflict damage to econ you'll be ahead.
If he goes for a base race you should be able to kill off his remaining buildines before he kills your base. If it seems like he might be able to do it (queens are dead, he's buring your hatch, etc) then send your drones about the .map and spam extractors so you have buildings up to buy time for your forces to crush his remaining buildings. Because zerg bases are smaller than toss ones, it doesn't take much time to actually kill all buildings, hence why random extractors about the map can buy you the time needed to finish his base off.
Tried the 5 Roach Rush strategy for the first time today in a ZvT matchup on Metalopolis
The rush failed, as the Terran player already had a siege tank out when my roaches arrived at his base. I decided to tech to mutalisks and harass, in which he responded with marines + thors. I managed to tech to ultralisks and pump several of them out right as he pushed onto my natural, sealing the win for me.
I'll admit that I did make several mistakes, such as the supply cap right before my roaches were supposed to go out, a lack of spreading creep at one point, probable BO screwups, etc.
I wanted to provide this replay for any other players interested in trying this build, and also a way to show the build transitioning to other things when the rush goes wrong.
I do not claim to be a good player at all, but merely one trying to work my way there. I also post this in hopes of a player who knows what he/she is talking about to comment on my early game(mainly, whether or not I made any glaring mistakes in my BO that I have yet to realize, or any tricks/strategies I may want to employ in the future).
Does anyone else think the patch kinda killed 5RR vs protoss? Of course it would be even more effective VS 2-gate now but the problem is after the nerf I have not seen ANY 2-gate openings.
On September 27 2010 10:42 kmillz wrote: Does anyone else think the patch kinda killed 5RR vs protoss? Of course it would be even more effective VS 2-gate now but the problem is after the nerf I have not seen ANY 2-gate openings.
If you aren't seeing any 2 gates it means you can 14 pool 16 hatch or even go hatch first. Get your econ up, get roaches and lings and whatever else you want to counter a 4 gate when you have double the econ.
This strategy is decent to transition into on spotting a 2 gate because a) it opens similarly to a speedling into 20-21 expand, b) gets roaches out just at the right time to end the 2 gate and c) the econ hit you take is compensated for by the protoss 2 gate being somewhat econ light (and slow tech so the lair delay doesn't matter as much).
If you can get away with it though go hatch first or 14-16 and get your drones up and running (and try to avoid the protoss expanding if possible).
I've found it really effective vs toss. against terran i'm thinking of doing a different strat (going for 14pool and 5RR if i see it'd work, or 14hatch if i don't like the what the terran is doing).
What i like about this build vs toss is that it's safe vs 2gate and really hurts fast tech builds (like fast stargate/robo/council). It isn't countered by a sentry either. You can just wait out the first forcefield and then bust in. it's when they have 2+ that it's best to abort and use the army for a contain. My favourite though is when they go fast phoenix. it makes me smile so much :D
Against terrans i've had mixed success. Sometimes it works great, other times it fails spectacularly (which is why now i'm starting to 9scout to see what i'm up against and then either 5RR or fast expand and tech quick to infestors).
Still not sure how this build is vs zerg. I wouldn;t mind watching some reps if people have them so i can see how it'd work. personally i go overpool into proxy crawlers if they pool late or for early lings for defence if they pool early.
@Cwall
I watched the first bit of the replay. The major problem i saw was that he scouted the warren. If they spot the warren it's better to abort. Then also when your roaches did arrive you attacked the marines behind the wall rather than one of the depots (lower left depot would have been the best). Speedlings can handle the tank if you can get past the wall. However i'm not sure if the 5 roaches would be able to bust down the wall or not with a tank shooting them (since tank dps vs armoured is still pretty decent even when not sieged. usually when they've gone fast tank i've already broken the wall and have lings inside before the tank pops).
Against toss you can sometimes still pull it off even if you're roaches are late due to supply block, but vs terran every second counts. On the larger maps where the roaches have to run miles and miles it might not be worth it to 5RR vs terran
On September 27 2010 20:51 Undercroft wrote: @Cwall
I watched the first bit of the replay. The major problem i saw was that he scouted the warren. If they spot the warren it's better to abort. Then also when your roaches did arrive you attacked the marines behind the wall rather than one of the depots (lower left depot would have been the best). Speedlings can handle the tank if you can get past the wall. However i'm not sure if the 5 roaches would be able to bust down the wall or not with a tank shooting them (since tank dps vs armoured is still pretty decent even when not sieged. usually when they've gone fast tank i've already broken the wall and have lings inside before the tank pops).
Against toss you can sometimes still pull it off even if you're roaches are late due to supply block, but vs terran every second counts. On the larger maps where the roaches have to run miles and miles it might not be worth it to 5RR vs terran
Thanks for the advice. I suppose when I first tried the build, I hadn't realized that the main purpose of the roaches was for them to bust the wall down for the lings to get in.
best way to think of it is as a baneling bust, except roaches to blow the wall instead of banelings. The speedlings are what really do the damage to them. the roaches are they to break the wall and draw enemy fire.
On September 27 2010 20:51 Undercroft wrote: @Cwall
I watched the first bit of the replay. The major problem i saw was that he scouted the warren. If they spot the warren it's better to abort. Then also when your roaches did arrive you attacked the marines behind the wall rather than one of the depots (lower left depot would have been the best). Speedlings can handle the tank if you can get past the wall. However i'm not sure if the 5 roaches would be able to bust down the wall or not with a tank shooting them (since tank dps vs armoured is still pretty decent even when not sieged. usually when they've gone fast tank i've already broken the wall and have lings inside before the tank pops).
Against toss you can sometimes still pull it off even if you're roaches are late due to supply block, but vs terran every second counts. On the larger maps where the roaches have to run miles and miles it might not be worth it to 5RR vs terran
Thanks for the advice. I suppose when I first tried the build, I hadn't realized that the main purpose of the roaches was for them to bust the wall down for the lings to get in.
I sometimes even delay my warren because if it gets scouted it can mess up everything, vs P that is. T might see it as preperations vs reapers.
haven't read the entire 34 page thread, but as a 1200 diamond terran, this strat looks like it would hardly work in zvt against any opening because as soon as i scout the roach warren, 1 bunker with mauraders and a few rines will completely stop this strat. i'll watch the reps when i get home but it doesn't sound viable after a certain level.
On September 28 2010 02:05 TigerWoodsPutt wrote: haven't read the entire 34 page thread, but as a 1300 diamond terran, this strat looks like it would hardly work in zvt against any opening because as soon as i scout the roach warren, 1 bunker with mauraders and a few rines will completely stop this strat. i'll watch the reps when i get home but it doesn't sound viable after a certain level.
For Pros on turneys not, right. Laddering? Yes, i think its good.
OK I have a variation of this build that i use pretty often and it is practically 100% against toss, about 60% against zerg depend on location, and you can't use it against terran unless you wanna get stomped. its about 8 initial roaches, and then every larva that pops after that is a roach, so by the time ur at your opponents base its 9 roaches on the field. heres the build order, 10 ov, pool at the same time ov pops gas at 11 drone till 14 queen 16/18 drone 17/18 OV 17/18 roach warren 16/26 OV
then ov should pop and you will have 34 supply, and a little over 300 mins and 125-150 gas pump all roaches, your spawn larva should pop additional larva as soon as you are able to pump the roaches, then keep pumping roaches and rallying. while you are attacking put creep tumor down at base, and expand after you've done enough damage. toss will not have enough stalkers to fight it off. also ur gonna want to split ur roaches up, one big group and one group of 2 on the probes. if you are at a far away position from a zerg opponent this build is not optional because if they go a speedling build which is pretty popular, you will get raped. i wouldn't do this against a terran unless hes going reapers (which no1 does with patch 1.1 now).
haven't read the entire 34 page thread, but as a 1200 diamond terran, this strat looks like it would hardly work in zvt against any opening because as soon as i scout the roach warren, 1 bunker with mauraders and a few rines will completely stop this strat. i'll watch the reps when i get home but it doesn't sound viable after a certain level.
I think most if not all non-standard openings run the same risk.
On September 28 2010 02:05 TigerWoodsPutt wrote: haven't read the entire 34 page thread, but as a 1200 diamond terran, this strat looks like it would hardly work in zvt against any opening because as soon as i scout the roach warren, 1 bunker with mauraders and a few rines will completely stop this strat. i'll watch the reps when i get home but it doesn't sound viable after a certain level.
personally I have not had much luck with this build everytime I've tried it. Once you start playing 1000+ diamond players it's VERY hard to recover from if you don't do a ton of damage with your initial rush. And a lot of times I barely do any damage with it and just end up WAAAAY behind in the macro game.. I'd say this build has lost me many more games than it's won.... it's really only good against like an aggresive two gate or if you manage to surprise a terran with it (which is very hard)..
I guess I really need to work on my Vs Toss micro.. because I rape terran after terran with this build, but I struggle so mightily versus toss.
Vs Zerg it rapes any sort of early baneling, but I struggle with any sort of roach build because of the defenders advantage. Although truth be told, I probably don't switch gears into macro quick enough... So that's probably on me.
On September 28 2010 02:05 TigerWoodsPutt wrote: haven't read the entire 34 page thread, but as a 1200 diamond terran, this strat looks like it would hardly work in zvt against any opening because as soon as i scout the roach warren, 1 bunker with mauraders and a few rines will completely stop this strat. i'll watch the reps when i get home but it doesn't sound viable after a certain level.
The strat has a built in anti scouting mechanism though.. he doesn't build the roach until the first 2 lings have cleaned up the SCV.
Unless you're telling me that you bunker up every time the SCV dies? Or perhaps instead of MULEing that you Scan first...
One of the nicest things about this build is that it's sort of a blank template. If you see 2 lings and a queen just before your SCV dies, I have a couple of options. I can one base roach, I can 1 base muta, or I can Expand and Macroling/muta.
I'm not here to go all Dwight on you, by any means... I'm just saying, it requires a little more dilligence than you're making it out to be.
Also: If you do bunker up, how do you deal with a Depot kill/runbye into the min line? That's how I've dealt with bunkers in the past... Best place to put the bunker IMO is right next to the CC when you scout this little dance.
For Pros on turneys not, right. Laddering? Yes, i think its good.
i meant in lower level play, this may work, but once you hit a certain point it's almost never going to.
On September 28 2010 04:46 Ragnar4 wrote: The strat has a built in anti scouting mechanism though.. he doesn't build the roach until the first 2 lings have cleaned up the SCV. Unless you're telling me that you bunker up every time the SCV dies? Or perhaps instead of MULEing that you Scan first...
against terran, an "anti scouting mechanism" doesn't exist because of scans. if you wait to build a roach warren and not build lings, that makes you extremely vulnerable.
One of the nicest things about this build is that it's sort of a blank template. If you see 2 lings and a queen just before your SCV dies, I have a couple of options. I can one base roach, I can 1 base muta, or I can Expand and Macroling/muta.
it's nice to wait until the SCV dies, but that can take a really long time. and again, hiding your tech is not really an option because of scans.
Also: If you do bunker up, how do you deal with a Depot kill/runbye into the min line? That's how I've dealt with bunkers in the past... Best place to put the bunker IMO is right next to the CC when you scout this little dance.
according to the BO, you only have 2 lings which will obviously die quickly. marines on the ramp stop runbys.
9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is 70% done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Drone Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Drone Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other)
?? regardless, rines on ramp negates running through my choke
If you cut off the bit of the build order that says "Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base" then of course there are no zerglings in it.
On September 28 2010 14:48 Shakes wrote: If you cut off the bit of the build order that says "Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base" then of course there are no zerglings in it.
just watched one of the zvt replays, and there were no lings by the time the roaches reached the t's base. am i missing something? seriously? his argument was to run his army past my bunker, not wait until he has a bunch of lings to accompany his roaches
On 2 player maps or close positions i almost always do this build at the 1000 diamond level. The only time it really fails is if terran opens fast with marauders or toss with stalkers like the OP said. But any other opening i will almost always break through the wall in and do damage. Once ive broken in im always at an advantage unless i mismicro the roaches. My favorite thing about this build is that it pretty much rapes any cheese bullshit toss or terran try to pull.
On September 28 2010 14:48 Shakes wrote: If you cut off the bit of the build order that says "Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base" then of course there are no zerglings in it.
just watched one of the zvt replays, and there were no lings by the time the roaches reached the t's base. am i missing something? seriously? his argument was to run his army past my bunker, not wait until he has a bunch of lings to accompany his roaches
If they're the replays in the first post you're probably watching an older version of the build. The up to date build gets ling speed early enough that the first batch of lings arrives around the time the roaches finish knocking the depot down (depending on the walk distance of course).
I think you're right in that a bunker holds this off: if not shuts it down completely at least doesn't allow it to do enough damage to justify it over a standard expand & drone build. I just don't think you're right about the lack of zerglings.
I still find this build the safest opener against all races. It hard counters reapers, is generally strong against any early (non-proxy) rushes, and is in general safe. If they don't scout you, you win, if they do and counter you simply don't attack and have a nice group of roaches and speedlings with which to help you defend and expand.
Also, they've been forced to modify their build and counter accordingly ie for terran - by going marauders/bio instead of mech/hellion harrass or early banshee. Which imo, puts the zerg player in a good position.
Protoss has to delay their 4gate. Zerg has to forget banelings (as has been said here before, they just "tickle" roaches). Just hold position on your ramp whilst you do whatever.
On September 28 2010 22:17 syrianrue wrote: i find that if the protoss zealot rush me, then they often time get my queen before my 5 roaches are out. does anyone have this problem?
need some help here
if you do perfect timings on the BO that should not happen, especially not after zealot buildtime nerf patch 1.1. But you could micro your queen just run away until roaches pop out.
which 5RR build are you guys having the most success with?
i'm using this one right now by ZodiakLucien from this thread: 9 ovi 14 ext 13pool 15 ovi Drone Queen Ling Drone Drone Warren Ling Speed Ovi, when queen pops inject I take the first drone off of gas at 136ish, 2nd drone at mid 140's, and last done when they bring in the final gas for 150. reinject 6 roaches (6th roach is a split second slower) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145740¤tpage=26#515
it's supposed to get the roaches out at 5.04 however, a lot of the times the zealot rush show up at around 4:45 or so, and they either kill my queen or my spawning pool. I do end up killing the zealot later once my roaches pop up, but then i have no queen or no spawning pool to continue making units... and because i had to spend time killing zealot at my base, and the oncoming zealot that are traversing from his base to mine, by the time my roaches get there, their numbers are cut down by half, and they usually have a blockade at the ramp with cannons and other units. :\
*and vs terran, whenever they have a blocked ramp with bunker and marines behind, my roaches usually get cut down to an insignificant amount
need some help guys, anything will be greatly appreciated.
On September 28 2010 22:17 syrianrue wrote: i find that if the protoss zealot rush me, then they often time get my queen before my 5 roaches are out. does anyone have this problem?
need some help here
Slow down the build to normal speed, and play it over and over again like 10 times just against an insane AI computer.. watch your time for the 5 pop and do everything you can to streamline it
speed up to "fast" speed, do the same, do everything you can to have it perfectly streamlined
Move up to ludicris speed. and practice until your opening is completely smooth.
This helped me SO much. I was shaving like 15 seconds off my roach pop and my timings came together sooooo well. I also stopped doing silly stuff like messing with the refinery timings.
I just want to say thank you for this build. I've recently switched from terran because I found zerg to just be more fun to play, and this build has made the transition so much easier. In fact, I'd played about 160 games as terran and never managed to get the 5-in-a-row achievement, but 7 games into playing zerg and I've already got it. I'm in silver league, so 3 of my 6 wins have been within 10 minutes, but it's nice when games go a bit longer and I can see that the small advantage I gained with the early aggression pays off later in the game.
This might be the very strat that finally gets me out of top-10 silver and into the gold league.
So I have a quick question, and it may be more general but since I was going for a 6RR I'm going to post it here just in case there's anything build-specific that somebody can add.
So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay.
I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me.
My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural?
As a 1100 zerg, i've tried this build about 6 times against terran. I've NEVER lost using it, its great, and its really fun to use. the roaches kill the supply depot before scv's get to repair it.
whenever its close positions and i feel like using it i am def going to use it more in my play. its a great strat, good job
On October 04 2010 03:40 The Touch wrote: So I have a quick question, and it may be more general but since I was going for a 6RR I'm going to post it here just in case there's anything build-specific that somebody can add.
So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay.
I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me.
My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural?
Any help would be appreciated.
I can't watch the replay right now but first of all I'm not sure where the bunker was placed, of you could get around it to get to the scv's that would but my first choice in that situation. He will either try and micro his units out of the bunker to save scvs or try and take out the lings with scvs which is a win either way for you.
If you can't get past the bunker and were able to kill the supply depot I would do pretty much what you said, i'd drone and expand to my natural, with the thought of going mutas and leave your lings outside his base. I'd try and scout with an overlord to see what hes going at about a minute past the first push, terran seem to respond to aggression with mass aggression. If your safe get mutas if not get roaches/lings to prep for the counter push, or just lings, or blings even static d if needed. About the time he counter pushes and you clean it up mutas should be hatching and you should be able to finish off the game. Or contain tell he runs out of minerals (I hate doing this)
Ouch. That roach attack really didn;t go well. Firstly, you didn;t micro them correctly. You only had 3 attacking the depot at a time, rather than all 5. Don't just right click on the depot. Run up the ramp so you're basically next to it. it'll allow all your roaches to attack the depot, instead of 3 attacking and the two at the back running around aimlessly because they aren;t in range.
You need to be more active with your first set of lings too. They just sat at the top of your ramp until you moved out. use them to scout. check the wall to see if anything's changed. There was also a LOT of units at the top of his wall. It meant that even though your roaches killed the depot the lings just got mowed down (and you made them engage in a choke). You want at least 2 roaches still alive when the lings enter (since they'll help draw the fire off your lings). Personally i'd have aborted the attack and not suicided the lings in.
His sim city looks like it might have made a proper bust in pretty annoying to deal with too, as it forces your units through a narrow choke made by the buildings in order to reach the mineral line.
Also when scouting with your first pair of lings and you check the ramp to see what's going on make sure to take note of building placement. Especially against terrans where if they can funnel your units about while being able to take shots as they move. Bad building layout = abort. 2 marauders = think about aborting (if few marines then continue. if lots of marines abort). Just show him the roaches and then back off. It'll make him schew his unit comp into being more marauder heavy. Also if you decide to abort early enough you can usually do drones instead of the first reinforcement ling wave and then get lings later on for defence. Also make sure to get a 2nd queen if you abort, since you can never be 100% sure they aren't plotting some bancheese
Don't waste units needlessly. I had a game earlier where he pulled scvs peremtively to the ramp before my roaches even began moving up the ramp. I'd have taken needless casualties so i aborted and pulled back without losing any units. the result being that i had an army already partially built to use for map control and then to kill off his army when it moved out. Short version: Don't lose units unless the damage to the enemy is equivelant or greater (such as wiping out scvs or whatever)
I also disagree with the in-base hatch. You tried to go for mutalisks but had only 1 base worth of gas. Personally i don't make any more roaches aside from the first set unless i really need too. They eat into gas needed for mutas/infestors (which you need to survive) and use a lot of supply up. Drop an evo chamber and get a quick +1 attack while pumping speedlings (after you have enough drones). then get mutas or infestors (i personally prefer infestors, but that's just my preference). about 40+ lings with +1attack and some infestors can handle the initial push well and then you can backtech for mutas (since you onyl need about 4-5 infestors and then gas starts stacking up) to mutilate his base.
TLDR version: - Scout the enemy ramp before commiting to the push (usually the roaches are already being made, but you can decide to drone instead of make the followup lings if things look bad). - Don't suicide units unless they do enough damage to justify the cost. - Get an expo rather than in base hatch since you'll need the gas once you hit lair. - +1speedlings do fine as an army as long as you make enough, which lets you conserve gas for lair tech rather than pumping more roaches. - Be proactive in scouting the map
Thanks both of you - and yeah my micro was completely nonexistent - it's one of the reasons I'm still in the silver league. Since then I've started moving the roaches up the ramp so that they're all in range before attacking, and indeed I've started running my lings straight to the mineral line. Lo and behold, I've won my last 8 or so games. I've decided that I'm happy to lose my lings and roaches in exchange for taking out half my opponent's SCVs. It makes taking my natural feel a lot safer, knowing that his economy is so far behind.
The in-base hatchery I'm really liking, at least at silver league level. It's mostly for the extra larva, since I'm not yet even close to saturation in the main. With that in mind, I figure I may as well make it easier to defend by having both my queens and army right there. Usually I seem to get a proper expo around the time the lair finishes, but it often depends on whether I remember to do it (remember, silver league). I was trying to expand and take the 3rd and 4th gas, but it got killed. I wasn't trying to make 1-base muta my strategy.
I'll definitely try to work on scouting with the first lings and, y'know, not just attack moving my lings and then ignoring them :p
In ZvT if you're hitting a depot and a bunch of SCVs come up to repair, you can just pop the SCVs. It's like he's bringing his mineral line out to you Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts?
On October 08 2010 04:50 nanoscorp wrote: In ZvT if you're hitting a depot and a bunch of SCVs come up to repair, you can just pop the SCVs. It's like he's bringing his mineral line out to you Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts?
Where did you read about roach range getting increased?
On October 08 2010 04:50 nanoscorp wrote: In ZvT if you're hitting a depot and a bunch of SCVs come up to repair, you can just pop the SCVs. It's like he's bringing his mineral line out to you Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts?
Where did you read about roach range getting increased?
Blizzard released their planned patch changes and Roach is getting range increase, Terran has to make supply depot before Barracks. Reaper is nerfed again and Zerg buildings are getting more HP.
On October 08 2010 04:50 nanoscorp wrote: In ZvT if you're hitting a depot and a bunch of SCVs come up to repair, you can just pop the SCVs. It's like he's bringing his mineral line out to you Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts?
Where did you read about roach range getting increased?
Battle.net information, if you log you'll find it.
On October 08 2010 08:28 chocopan wrote: Anyone want to speculate on how the roach range increase will affect the whole 5RR thing?
Yea this is the new baneling bust now. Its good tho, Z now has 2 options to punish a greedy T (baneling and 5RR), and at least the 5RR is easy to transition out of.
On October 04 2010 03:40 The Touch wrote: So I have a quick question, and it may be more general but since I was going for a 6RR I'm going to post it here just in case there's anything build-specific that somebody can add.
So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay.
I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me.
My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural?
Any help would be appreciated.
Well, the hatch should really go at your expo. Theres really no purpose for it in your base...
Also, you should have retreated as soon as you saw marauds and a bunker and jsut droned up, keeping lings and roaches alive. Then transition into a normal midgame, the difference being that you have slightly less economy than you normally would have.
On October 08 2010 08:28 chocopan wrote: Anyone want to speculate on how the roach range increase will affect the whole 5RR thing?
It will make punishing a Terran wall-off much easier. Roaches will be able to challenge a factory/rax wall-in at the bottom of the ramp without being hit. It will make roaches less vulnerable vs. the wall in general, since T will have more difficulty keeping his marines out of roach attack range. Ditto for Marauders. It turns this into a solid early push instead of something that's immediately shut down by a marauder or two without a bunker.
On the P side of things, it will make it easier to snipe off zealots and pylons at the tops using overlord sight. It lets more roaches shoot at once as they move up the ramp. It will make it more difficult for protoss to stall with a couple kiting stalkers.
On September 28 2010 04:46 Ragnar4 wrote: The strat has a built in anti scouting mechanism though.. he doesn't build the roach until the first 2 lings have cleaned up the SCV. Unless you're telling me that you bunker up every time the SCV dies? Or perhaps instead of MULEing that you Scan first...
against terran, an "anti scouting mechanism" doesn't exist because of scans. if you wait to build a roach warren and not build lings, that makes you extremely vulnerable.
One of the nicest things about this build is that it's sort of a blank template. If you see 2 lings and a queen just before your SCV dies, I have a couple of options. I can one base roach, I can 1 base muta, or I can Expand and Macroling/muta.
it's nice to wait until the SCV dies, but that can take a really long time. and again, hiding your tech is not really an option because of scans.
Hiding your tech is an option even though the terran has scans. Terran players do not usually scan straight when their scouting SCV dies. In fact, I have never seen anyone do it. So just because its possible for him to do it doesnt mean that he will. Waiting for the SCV to die to make the roach warren doesnt really make you "extremely vulnerable" to much. Unless its something like an unscouted 7 proxyrax, you are pretty safe, and even if it is that, you should still be fine.
If in the long run terran does end up scanning zerg all the time after the SCV dies, simply because of the possibility of the 5RR, then that would quite honestly be awesome for all zerg games.
I've had great success with this build over the past few weeks. But I think most of its success is attributable to its surprise factor. The 5RR opener is still a relatively obscure strategy, and a lot of players still don't know how to scout it yet. Once the build order becomes more mainstream, I suspect its success rate will fall precipitously.
Here's the fatal flaw in this opener: A Protoss opponent will not need to see the roach warren to know exactly what the Zerg is up to. As soon as the gas goes down at supply 13, he'll know roaches are coming. After all, why else would a Zerg get gas so early in ZvP?
Banelings? Not against Protoss. Speedlings? Against Terrans maybe. Early speedlings are often the preferred method of fending off early reapers. But against Protoss, there is no urgency to get speedlings so early. Certainly not at supply 13. Typical Zerg in ZvP will wait until Supply 15 to get gas. Or maybe even after the fast expansion.
But gas at Supply 13 raises red flags. It's a sure sign that the Zerg is attempting an early attack off of one base. And gas at 13 could only mean it's roaches. IMHO, there really is no other possibility, not in ZvP at least.
Hi, everyone! I'm just a noob 600ish point zerg at bronze and I am basically making the 5RR my core BO and trying to macro up until I polish my basics.
I can usually get the roaches out by 5:07 which isn't so bad, I suppose, but my question is: when do I put the drones back on gas? Also, when do I get all the other gas nodes on my main and expansion?
If anyone answers my questions, do these timings on gas apply to just this build or to all zerg BO's in general?
Lastly, I noticed that Newti gets his 10th food drone at about 75minerals instead of just getting it at the 50 miineral mark. Does this make difference?
Sorry for all the noob questions. I just have tons of things to improve and it's making my head hurt.
put them back on gas once you've finished with the attack (ie not making any more lings and swapped back to drone production). Personally though i only pull 2 drones off gas. It lets me get some gas income in for a quicker lair or quick +1melee for when i stop the attack.
I take my 2nd gas when my lair is halfway done. I'll take expo gas when i feel i need more gas (usually once my t2 tech building is done or nearly done).
In general though unless you're going for super super fast mutas you grab your 2nd gas sometime while your lair is building. Expo gas is a little tricker since you need to get a feel for it, but around the time your den/spire/pit is going up usually works. The reason 5RR pulls drones off gas is because the mineral income actually allows you to keep up with the enemy mineral income despite a usually lower worker count (since they have guys in gas), which means you can grab the expo and pump reinforcement lings
Fistdantilus, thank you for this build. Its much better than the roach rush build I used back in beta. - I went 5:0 on my placements for 1v1 and got hotshot, using this build all 5 times. Only in 1 game did I even have to move on past the first push.
On October 11 2010 11:38 smegged wrote: has anyone tried a double gas steal vs protoss combined with this strategy (though obviously delaying the roaches by a small amount)?
It seems as though it would be a good way to force more zealots in the early game, which this build counters.
That would be really effective if you could pull it off and still have enough minerals and gas to morph the 5 roaches upon completion of the Roach Warren...as it is, if you execute the 5RR correctly, the ONLY way that Protoss can stop it is with stalkers...zealots die too easily to basic roach micro. A double gas steal would delay stalkers long enough for your roaches to bust the wall, at least. I think you could actually have the 5 roaches out just as fast if you cut some zerglings and drones and save the money for the queen and roach warren...your economy will be much weaker, and you won't have zerglings to chase off the probe, but it shouldn't matter with the gas steal because even if they see it coming, they can't do anything about it...maybe they could go mass cannons, but I'm not sure if they'd have the time/money to pull it off. I'm gonna try this against the comp and see if I can come up with a viable double-gas steal version of the 5RR; if it works it'll be too good to be true.
If you want to do a double gas steal, I guess you should take your own gas later and skip zergling speed. As the idea is to fight only zealots, it is not that important anyway. Of course once the game progresses past the early aggression the toss will focus on stalkers/immortals so a backtech to zerglings is advised afterwards.
A rough calculation shows that a double gas steal sets you back about 400 minerals and 2 drones when your roaches are out, by skipping speed and taking gas later you save a bit more than 200, so you are still behind compared to the normal build. If you do a lot of damage with the roaches it is ok I guess, for sure you will not run into forcefields or a lot of stalkers.
I've been doing double injection and pushing against terran. I've been trying to feint an expo by sending a drone out to my expo area, while saving larvae and not building the warren til a bit later, then making 10 roaches at once, it's been going pretty good. Everytime I do this, the T appears out of his base with 10 marines and 4 hellions trying to do a timing push or smoething.
Just curious, what's the standard for this build nowadays, I see a lot of different versions popping up every couple pages. I haven't really tried this build myself, since I usually try to play more standard on ladder, but it seems like an interesting build to pull out every once in awhile. Overall, it seems very solid, although you can be at slight disadvantages at certain points in the game. I think if a Terran wastes a scan to see your roach warren morphing in, you can just plop down a FE, and mass speedlings, and transition into the midgame without any roaches.
9 Overlord 13 Pool 15 Extractor 15 Overlord *wait for pool* 15 Zergling 16 Queen Get rid of the scout with the zerglings and plant Roach Warren after at 50-70% Queen, scout enemy with the zerglings 20 Overlord Wait for Roach Warren, make 6-7 Roaches and attack asap
Like this I actually do a 6-7 Roach Rush (depends on the Larva Timing, injecting a tiny bit later allowes for 3+4 Larvae but I'm still working on that). Second injected larvae wave goes into drones, after that I expand, get speed and +1 melee or lair, depending on what I can scout during my attack. My goal is just to deal as much damage as I can, disrupting my enemys build order and putting pressure on him, so I can get ahead economically.
Here is a replay pack against several openings (replays named accordingly), the only ones which can really hold it off without much damage are thickly walled terrans (barracks&factory with enough units) or sentry-stalker combinations. RR Opening vs T&P
/Edit: Since people usually want stats before they watch replays: currently #14 Diamond with 1250 points and 118/100 Ratio on EU.
As I have climbed up the rankings (1158 Diamond,) the effectiveness of this against Terran has diminished. Against Protoss though I have actually experienced greater success. Many of my protoss opponents go Gate->Cyber->Robo->Gate chronoing warp tech and when I reach their base they have but 2-4 zealots and 1-2 stalkers. As far as I can tell when a protoss does this build order its a GG (or 2gate zealot). If they built a senty instead of a stalker they would probably be fine but most I have faced have only gone zealots -> stalkers. When I see this I just turn my push into an All In (don't drone pump, speedling pump), knowing that I can pretty much demolish them.
Against Terran I use it more situationaly. If I see a depot/Rax wall and only marines while poking with my lings I will go 5rr, if I see less than 3 marauders, it is an option, tho spling/bling is likely better.
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
On October 11 2010 17:45 Sirion wrote: If you want to do a double gas steal, I guess you should take your own gas later and skip zergling speed. As the idea is to fight only zealots, it is not that important anyway. Of course once the game progresses past the early aggression the toss will focus on stalkers/immortals so a backtech to zerglings is advised afterwards.
A rough calculation shows that a double gas steal sets you back about 400 minerals and 2 drones when your roaches are out, by skipping speed and taking gas later you save a bit more than 200, so you are still behind compared to the normal build. If you do a lot of damage with the roaches it is ok I guess, for sure you will not run into forcefields or a lot of stalkers.
Interesting. You either need to kill 2 more zealots/pylons than you would otherwise to break even or kill 4 probes. Still could be worth it against protoss as a lot of players will not know how to adapt well.
*sigh* I need the internet at home so I can try this.
I have no idea how this build became popular vs terran. Its beyond horrible. I can defend it while doing 1 rax FE, reactor helion FE, banchee rush. Basicly anything. Its hilarious when I do 1 rax FE since I will get my expo up before you.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
Against sentries you only need to abort if there's more than one. A single sentry won't be able to stop the rush or slow it enough to actually do anything. All you do is wait out the first forcefield and then break in. It doesn't matter as much if your roaches get a little split as you can still use them to open a hole for the lings.
Against terrans i've had a bit more mixed success. Tech builds get demolished unless the wall is build properly (ie two big buildings like a rax, etc) or they go for lots of marauders early. Not sure how a 1rax FE stops the 5RR. What units do you have at your wall? and how do you manage to expand when the zerg has all those units for map control? I don't see what you can mean by having the expansion up before the zerg player when you won';t be able to land the cc
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
I've been doing 14 ext, 14 pool, and then stopping production at 20 supply. Then getting out 7 roaches instead of 5. Those two roaches seem to make a big difference.
On October 12 2010 21:39 Undercroft wrote: Against sentries you only need to abort if there's more than one. A single sentry won't be able to stop the rush or slow it enough to actually do anything. All you do is wait out the first forcefield and then break in. It doesn't matter as much if your roaches get a little split as you can still use them to open a hole for the lings.
Against terrans i've had a bit more mixed success. Tech builds get demolished unless the wall is build properly (ie two big buildings like a rax, etc) or they go for lots of marauders early. Not sure how a 1rax FE stops the 5RR. What units do you have at your wall? and how do you manage to expand when the zerg has all those units for map control? I don't see what you can mean by having the expansion up before the zerg player when you won';t be able to land the cc
1st of all any terran should be using 2 structures to wall off because of baneling busts. Basicly with 1 rax FE you get 2 reapers out first. The first reaper will spot w/e you are doing and then you just get marauder (the fact that you take gas after pool is also a huge give away). You really only need 2 marauders to defend vs this push. I tend to go 1 rax with techlab, get out 2 reaper (or w/e is needed, marauders if I see this opening). Start CC when at 400 minerals, produce rauders after the 2 reapers, at 600 minerals put down 3rax and 1 factory (this is before the CC is done) and start stim. The OC is done around the time the first cycle of units has come out, so you can just go down, secure nat and land OC.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap.
Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off.
On October 12 2010 21:39 Undercroft wrote: Against sentries you only need to abort if there's more than one. A single sentry won't be able to stop the rush or slow it enough to actually do anything. All you do is wait out the first forcefield and then break in. It doesn't matter as much if your roaches get a little split as you can still use them to open a hole for the lings.
Against terrans i've had a bit more mixed success. Tech builds get demolished unless the wall is build properly (ie two big buildings like a rax, etc) or they go for lots of marauders early. Not sure how a 1rax FE stops the 5RR. What units do you have at your wall? and how do you manage to expand when the zerg has all those units for map control? I don't see what you can mean by having the expansion up before the zerg player when you won';t be able to land the cc
1st of all any terran should be using 2 structures to wall off because of baneling busts. Basicly with 1 rax FE you get 2 reapers out first. The first reaper will spot w/e you are doing and then you just get marauder (the fact that you take gas after pool is also a huge give away). You really only need 2 marauders to defend vs this push. I tend to go 1 rax with techlab, get out 2 reaper (or w/e is needed, marauders if I see this opening). Start CC when at 400 minerals, produce rauders after the 2 reapers, at 600 minerals put down 3rax and 1 factory (this is before the CC is done) and start stim. The OC is done around the time the first cycle of units has come out, so you can just go down, secure nat and land OC.
You cant get 2 reapers and 2 marauders out in time on one rax. Its just not possible. If you sent your first reaper to his base asap, at the risk of losing him, you would see the roaches on their way to your base already, and would just have time to cancel the second reaper, make a marauder instead, and start a bunker. You might not have the money, depending on your build, but you cant get 2 reapers and 2 marauders out in time off 1 rax. Unless you went 7rax or something dumb.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap.
Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off.
Umm....roaches attacked the zealots? Roaches kite zealots -> zealots either on hold and die or chase and die, if they chase run speedlings past zealots to surround stalkers -> roaches kill zealots -> finish up stalkers.
The time he had a sentry I believe he cut my roaches into 2 and 3, i focused down the zealots because they were in range then he warped in stalkers to counter my roaches and my speedlings were waiting outside for the FF to go away. FF goes away I simply run in and at this point my second wave of speedlings is on the way. i would imagine the correct thing to do would be warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers to maintain a FF but my opponent is not aware of speedlings waiting outside nor do most people when under pressure have the composure to warp in a caster. People think oh shitshitshit need dps roaches here ok STALKERS! Which is really their downfall.
I'll try to find replays for you I have saved and also I'll open this on toss every opportunity I have and save you more replays. I think the main thing though is all toss scouts at the most is I am researching ling speed. I never ever have let a toss scout my roach warren going down and if they do I would probably cancel and expand.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap.
Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off.
Umm....roaches attacked the zealots? Roaches kite zealots -> zealots either on hold and die or chase and die, if they chase run speedlings past zealots to surround stalkers -> roaches kill zealots -> finish up stalkers.
The time he had a sentry I believe he cut my roaches into 2 and 3, i focused down the zealots because they were in range then he warped in stalkers to counter my roaches and my speedlings were waiting outside for the FF to go away. FF goes away I simply run in and at this point my second wave of speedlings is on the way. i would imagine the correct thing to do would be warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers to maintain a FF but my opponent is not aware of speedlings waiting outside nor do most people when under pressure have the composure to warp in a caster. People think oh shitshitshit need dps roaches here ok STALKERS! Which is really their downfall.
I'll try to find replays for you I have saved and also I'll open this on toss every opportunity I have and save you more replays. I think the main thing though is all toss scouts at the most is I am researching ling speed. I never ever have let a toss scout my roach warren going down and if they do I would probably cancel and expand.
I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in.
When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require.
I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz.
edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap.
Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off.
Umm....roaches attacked the zealots? Roaches kite zealots -> zealots either on hold and die or chase and die, if they chase run speedlings past zealots to surround stalkers -> roaches kill zealots -> finish up stalkers.
The time he had a sentry I believe he cut my roaches into 2 and 3, i focused down the zealots because they were in range then he warped in stalkers to counter my roaches and my speedlings were waiting outside for the FF to go away. FF goes away I simply run in and at this point my second wave of speedlings is on the way. i would imagine the correct thing to do would be warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers to maintain a FF but my opponent is not aware of speedlings waiting outside nor do most people when under pressure have the composure to warp in a caster. People think oh shitshitshit need dps roaches here ok STALKERS! Which is really their downfall.
I'll try to find replays for you I have saved and also I'll open this on toss every opportunity I have and save you more replays. I think the main thing though is all toss scouts at the most is I am researching ling speed. I never ever have let a toss scout my roach warren going down and if they do I would probably cancel and expand.
I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in.
When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require.
I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz.
edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game.
Want to face each other and see exactly how many sentries you can get out?
I honestly just cant see you even able to get 500 gas that quickly especially not while teching robo (many toss I face go Gateway->Cyber->Robo and chronoing WarpTech->Gateway). 500 gas + build time off of 1 or 2 gateways while also building 2-3 zealots. 3 zealots and 5 sentries in under 5 minutes off of 1 or 2 gateways? I don't play toss so I could be way off just seems iffy.
However I am also not saying that 5RR is a top zerg strat, just that I am finding it is still a useful weapon to have in my Build Orders if I see a toss being greedy or if my 2 poke lings scout a shit army composition.
This is what I face more often than not, and he even walled with gate/cyber. Normally I would not have attacked facing that wall but against his army composition I was fairly certain I would come out on top.
[/QUOTE] I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in.
When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require.
I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz.
edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game. [/QUOTE]
I probably agree with this, because if they go 1gate into cyber, even just one stalker with zealots can hold this off. And once they do hold it off they're back to doing whatever it is they were planning to do with 1gate into cyber whilst you've delayed your expansion significantly.
On the other hand, if they 2 gate roach is ok as you kind of have to get roach anyway if they pressure with 5 zealots. So yeah, I like fast roach if 2 gate. 1 gate i prefer hatch first macro style
Edit: clearly i dont know how to quote properly...
I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in.
When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require.
I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz.
edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game.
I probably agree with this, because if they go 1gate into cyber, even just one stalker with zealots can hold this off. And once they do hold it off they're back to doing whatever it is they were planning to do with 1gate into cyber whilst you've delayed your expansion significantly.
On the other hand, if they 2 gate roach is ok as you kind of have to get roach anyway if they pressure with 5 zealots. So yeah, I like fast roach if 2 gate. 1 gate i prefer hatch first macro style
Edit: clearly i dont know how to quote properly...
How in the hell can 1 stalker + zealots beat 5 roaches + even just 2 lings? Maybe if the roaches are not microed at all its possible. Otherwise zealots will get eaten alive by roaches.
1 gate -> Gas -> Cyber -> Gas -> Gate or Robo can be beaten very easily by 5RR and I have done it many times.
One example of this where they chrono their immortal out and almost hold off my push with stalkers workers and immortals, all my roaches die but I already decided to all in with lings after and they mopped up.
With a later expo and no banelings. Any damage you could do with your build, I would think the roach/baneling build would do even more damage (as it gets through the wall faster with the 5 roaches with the banelings). And with only 1 base (until after the attack starts), you will be less able to spam lings/drones to power or prevent a counter attack.
its probably slower because its meant to be an opening and not an all-in
With 1.1.2 this build is looking quite promising. Thanks Fistdatilus.
I took the time to write the exact same build in the OP w/ supply #'s instead of instructions to make drones. (I can never remember how many drones to make without using supply #'s)
With a later expo and no banelings. Any damage you could do with your build, I would think the roach/baneling build would do even more damage (as it gets through the wall faster with the 5 roaches with the banelings). And with only 1 base (until after the attack starts), you will be less able to spam lings/drones to power or prevent a counter attack.
its probably slower because its meant to be an opening and not an all-in
Yeah, whats beautiful about this build is that if your chances of breaking through aren't good when your roaches show up, you can power drones instead of making additional lings and high tail it back home.
okay, i think all the protosses who say this build sucks blah blah are theorycrafting or something.
i think you're all underestimating how quick this build is. You CANNOT have 5 frikken sentries by the time the roaches get there.
I beat almost every toss with this build, to the point where I've stopped using it because its such a free win and I want to try other strats. (~1200 diamond)
It can be held off by very skilled play and if the toss has the exact right units for it. But honestly, a couple of stalkers are no problem at all, 1 sentry is no problem. when he has like 3 sentries then its an issue. but u can bust down the pylon or force the zealots blocking choke so quickly and stream your speedlings in... and once u get your speedlings in its basically gg.
i keep my speedlings sitting in his natural until i see an opening, toss often doesn't realise they're there so he doesn't worry too much about leaving an opening.
one of the best defenses toss has is good building placement. If they can make a way to funnel your units through a narrow choke (made by their buildings) they have a good way of at least fighting back. had a game where i busted in but a zealot got warped into the funnel to cut off reinforcements (while probes and stalkers killed off what had busted in). think it was a gate-core-gate-gate type of BO by the enemy. I think i equalised (since i did get some probe kills), but he didn't die outright like almost all of the gate-core builds i see. Made me learn to look at the wall with scouting lings a bit more before commiting to a bust.
It's also the reason my success with this build vs terran is a bit so-so too. Good sim city can be a pain, especially with a funnel-like placement when there's marines to pew pew over the buildings.
tldr: Be warned that good building placement can augment their defence force
It's also the reason my success with this build vs terran is a bit so-so too. Good sim city can be a pain, especially with a funnel-like placement when there's marines to pew pew over the buildings.
tldr: Be warned that good building placement can augment their defence force
With the new roach range they can attack the building without being attacked back. This seems like the 5RR would be a lot more effective.
yeah i haven't taken new range into consideration yet (since i haven't been on ladder in a bit. net issues DC me ), but when i first heard of that change i had a grin that looked like trollface.
Actually the range increase will also make sentries a bit less of a hassle in some ways. usually you can still pick off a zealot or pylon if the FF half your force. This change means we might still be able to shoot with all the rest. Will need to test it though
Post patch 1.1.2 i'm pretty sure on Kulas Ravine where the entrance is not on higher grounds, Roaches will now be able to shoot at depots or Rax without fear of retaliation by marines or maybe even Marauders. (Marines range 5, Roaches range 4, Depot is 2 'space')
On October 15 2010 22:24 me_viet wrote: Post patch 1.1.2 i'm pretty sure on Kulas Ravine where the entrance is not on higher grounds, Roaches will now be able to shoot at depots or Rax without fear of retaliation by marines or maybe even Marauders. (Marines range 5, Roaches range 4, Depot is 2 'space')
Another good point of this build I think
We can also do something similar on highground ramps if we use an overlord to spot. the main risk though is losing the overlord before that. Losing an ovie before you get the roaches up can really hurt the timings of this BO (had it happen to me once. got sloppy in a ZvP and stalker killed my ovie)
On October 15 2010 22:24 me_viet wrote: Post patch 1.1.2 i'm pretty sure on Kulas Ravine where the entrance is not on higher grounds, Roaches will now be able to shoot at depots or Rax without fear of retaliation by marines or maybe even Marauders. (Marines range 5, Roaches range 4, Depot is 2 'space')
Another good point of this build I think
Marauders have a range of 6, which still wouldn't be enough, but a Bunker just behind the depot should be enough, since it adds +1 range to the marauders within it. Does this means that a wall against roaches not requires such a setup - at least until you get tanks - ?
Would such a bunker be enough to attack the roaches even if they go not for the supply depot, but for the barrack? would they be able to stay out of range this way?
Yea, roaches can hit Terran buildings without being shot back from marines with this. I've done it a couple times so far =). Also, I've found it useful to fly my first overlord near their base at the beginning, then when I move out to attack, flying it close to the entrance so it can spot for my roaches. That way, they can attack, even on the low ground and off of the ramp.
It's more to help a Zerg player that went roaches deal with seige drops... The range of 3 made it impossible for the roaches to reach the seiges that were dropped behind minerals because there were 8 or 12 marines in the way. This forced the roaches to fight the marines and die, and didn't give the player the option of microing towards the tank.
It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them. I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
On October 16 2010 07:16 shannn wrote: It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them. I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
I think a lot of that has to do with people just trying them out. If its just like beta, go go fast immortal push.
On October 16 2010 07:16 shannn wrote: It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them. I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
I think a lot of that has to do with people just trying them out. If its just like beta, go go fast immortal push.
On October 16 2010 07:16 shannn wrote: It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them. I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
I think a lot of that has to do with people just trying them out. If its just like beta, go go fast immortal push.
On October 16 2010 07:58 csfield wrote: I've been having a lot of success vs protoss lately with an overpool roach rush
10 OL 10 pool 15 gas (and queen) 18 roach warren 17 drone 18 OL then another
you attack with 7 roaches really fast
I got this BO from the thread about a build-order-finding program. He said this was the fastest way to get 7 roaches.
9 Overlord is better than 10 Overlord in every way as far as I know.
Also don't see why you need pool on 10, you can do a 13 pool 13 gas and get the Roach Warren when you're Queen's at 75%, make sure you have enough ovies and save 2 larva to spawn 7 roaches at the end of the Queen's first inject, around 5:00 game time.
On this issue though I think double extractor trick, 12 pool 12 overlord gas queen warren is the fastest way to get 5-6 roaches our but you're only 40 game seconds ahead of 13 pool and 2 drones ahead of 11 pool. The benefit comes of the overlord taking you to 34 supply so the next batch of larva sends lings to support your roaches which really hurts toss
On October 16 2010 07:58 csfield wrote: I've been having a lot of success vs protoss lately with an overpool roach rush
10 OL 10 pool 15 gas (and queen) 18 roach warren 17 drone 18 OL then another
you attack with 7 roaches really fast
I got this BO from the thread about a build-order-finding program. He said this was the fastest way to get 7 roaches.
9 Overlord is better than 10 Overlord in every way as far as I know.
Also don't see why you need pool on 10, you can do a 13 pool 13 gas and get the Roach Warren when you're Queen's at 75%, make sure you have enough ovies and save 2 larva to spawn 7 roaches at the end of the Queen's first inject, around 5:00 game time.
You don't need an OL on 9 if you're going to be throwing up a pool on 10. Think about it.
And it's worthy of note that this build gets the 7 roaches out 15-20 seconds before the 5 minute mark. I'm not saying it's optimal or anything, but it's the fastest build this program could find. It's limited by its programming (no extractor tricks or scouting), and it certainly isn't concerned with economy, but it slams those roaches out mighty fast.
And it is also an all-in. The point of this build is not to all in it is to punish fast tech while having a somewhat solid economy. If you do anything more than this you are pretty much going all in, I have tried a lot of variations on it and 5RR is the most balanced, if you go 7 roaches you probably arent getting ling speed and you probably dont have enough money to expand. Especially looking at that build order, so if you do in fact fail your attack, you are going to lose the game 9 times out of 10.
still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in. Force field, warp in 2 stalker/1sentry, force field again, warp in stalker/stalker/stalker, easily hold off roaches and he ggs shortly after because I have double his income.
He managed to take out my gateway(had a gateway/core walloff) but that was it. If I played better I could have warped in more sentries and kept force fielding while building a cannon or two.
Btw I was completely unprepared for such a quick roach rush because I saw him expanding. It was only after watching the replay that I realized he canceled his expo to get roaches faster.
On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote: still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in.
Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression:
a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches
On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote: still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in. Force field, warp in 2 stalker/1sentry, force field again, warp in stalker/stalker/stalker, easily hold off roaches and he ggs shortly after because I have double his income.
He managed to take out my gateway(had a gateway/core walloff) but that was it. If I played better I could have warped in more sentries and kept force fielding while building a cannon or two.
Btw I was completely unprepared for such a quick roach rush because I saw him expanding. It was only after watching the replay that I realized he canceled his expo to get roaches faster.
the 5RR rarely works as a coup de grace for me. Rather, the roaches keep the opponent stuck in their base until they can definitively wipe out the roaches/lings I have sitting on their nat, meanwhile I can be droning droning droning and expanding expanding expanding. Their options are to trade armies and keep up with me in econ (which creates the threat that if I'm on an all-in build they'll be unable to stop my next push), or to cede economic and map control while they make enough units to convincingly crush my poor innocent zerg blocking their natural. The most effective response I've seen to this, assuming I'm able to keep the contain (which is most of the time at my bronze level) is to stop trying to beat the roaches and start trying to out-tech me. My econ will be vastly better than yours, but if you have cloaked banshees or drop DTs in my mineral line I'm going to have a hell of a time fighting you off until my overseer finishes morphing, 30-some seconds from now. Remember that your opponent is using this time to drone, not necessarily to tech or upgrade. If you try and beat them conventionally they can outproduce you and hammer you down with their additional base(s). Be sneakier.
On October 16 2010 07:16 shannn wrote: It feels like beta when the roach was 1 supply all over again. All PvZ today have been 5RR or something similar where they rush roaches along with some lings and mass them. I barely win it each time but it seems to be the trend atm. The range buff really has made zerg players go more roach early game delaying tech.
I think Terran and Protoss were too much comfortable against vs <early game zerg>. After the range increase they can't keep on thinking that they are always safe for the first 6-10 minutes of the game. Terran and Protoss players are still getting used to this change and sometime in the future they will know what to do if they scout it properly.
After all of the nerfs that Roaches have given, this was a very welcome buff.
On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote: still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in.
Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression:
a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches
The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
Due to taking drones off of gas, having an expansion, and 2 queens your econ can quickly out pace your opponent's. You admit to making mistakes, remember that it is possible that your opponent made even more. Also, if his rush had not been all in he wouldn't have been nearly as behind in econ. I obviously haven't seen the game you're talking about but it sounds like your opponent could've simply done a contain if he had done the 5RR and then played macro heavy and gotten a big lead.
Thanks for the great build Fist, sorry you got so much flak for it.
On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote: still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in.
Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression:
a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches
The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
Next game you play check the income tab once you pull drones off gas. You'll see that mineral-wise you aren't actually that behind on income. You'll have little to no gas income (depending if you leave a drone in or not), but other than that you'll be close. Then when you transition out of it you pump a round or two of drones and stick drones back in gas.
On October 19 2010 16:43 ewswes wrote: still not understanding how anyone could lose to this. I just played a game on jungle basin where a zerg scouts my gate/core/nexus, cancels his hatchery expansion and decides to go allin roaches on me. I had 1 zealot/1 sentry when 7 roaches with 4 reinforcing came in.
Please at least read the first post so you understand the difference between a 5RR and just plain random roach aggression:
a) The 5RR gets an expansion after the roaches are out, not before b) The 5RR gets 5 roaches only (sounds like a "well duh" point, but you describe someone getting 11 roaches and think it's related to this build ...) c) The 5RR gets ling speed and follows up with lings, not more roaches
The point was I made a bunch of mistakes, did a fast expand build, was completely unprepared and I still held off a complete all-in with minimal damage. After that game I didn't see how a 5RR build can do any damage to make up for the economy loss.
You don't have a point. You are posting in a thread about a specific build, wondering how anyone could lose to it, citing your experience vs a completely differenty build. Like another post above me states, you aren't economically behind by much. You are only behind if your attack does 0 damage. If you even take out a pylon/depot you can break even, and roaches can now outrange marines/marauds when hitting depots (marauder has 6 range roach has 4, roaches can stand in a place to hit the depot with careful position iirc).
Note: you won't be able to match computed times, as the program does not include walking times of drones, however your roach timing should be round the 5'00 minute mark as in the original build. Try to build pool and warren ASAP as they get avaiable (you easily loose some 5..10 seconds each if you execute this sloppy (pool loose 10 + warren loose 10 = 20 seconds late). Try to minimize the walking distance of the building drone and/or take it of the minerals before you get the money need to build.
Note: you won't be able to match computed times, as the program does not include walking times of drones, however your roach timing should be round the 5'00 minute mark as in the original build. Try to build pool and warren ASAP as they get avaiable (you easily loose some 5..10 seconds each if you execute this sloppy (pool loose 10 + warren loose 10 = 20 seconds late). Try to minimize the walking distance of the building drone and/or take it of the minerals before you get the money need to build.
No queen?
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL 13 Pool 12 Gas 15 OL 15 Queen 15 Lings 2 More drones 100 Gas -> Ling Speed Queen 75% done Roach Warren Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
extra info: And to add to that even if i contain the protoss while i get some expos, they all have gone dt's, killed my drones then killed me.
On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote: Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap.
If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras.
On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote: Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap.
If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras.
ah thanks for tip, liquipedia says scout isn't neccessary because your roaches will scout early enough, I guess that was the last time i trusted liquipedia.
On October 20 2010 05:34 Roflhaxx wrote: Every single protoss i do this build against walls off ( note: they have not scouted my roaches etc. ) places 1/2 zealots at hole in wall then just does 1/2 sentries and some stalkers, how do i break that ramp?
You dont. Your roaches will get force fielded and split. You should have scouted their unit composition with lings and if you see something like this dont even try to 5RR. If you have already made your 5 Roaches, you can either suicide them into your opponent or bring them back to your base for defense and expand asap.
If you see a protoss composition like that sacrifice and overlord because I would guess they are going either 4 warp or 3 warp robo in which case you should lay down some (2-3) spine crawlers at your nat make sure you have ling speed for flanking and tech to hydras.
ah thanks for tip, liquipedia says scout isn't neccessary because your roaches will scout early enough, I guess that was the last time i trusted liquipedia.
I haven't read the liquipedia entry for this build but the 2 lings you make to kill the enemy scout should always always always be sitting outside your opponents base poking up to get the enemy army composition and general scouting.
Even when you are doing a different strat. Those lings outside his doorstep show army composition and when/if your enemy is moving his army out. Letting you know how many/if you should throw down spine crawlers, how large there army is, what their composition is, what your unit composition needs to be by the time the enemy army reaches your base. Etc. Etc. You need to be able to discern all of this within a matter of 1-2 seconds. At least if you are droning hard and not preparing for an attack. I prefer to FE and drone till the last possible second throwing down 3-4 spines and spamming out ling/roach/hydra but thats just me.
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL 13 Pool 12 Gas 15 OL 15 Queen 15 Lings 2 More drones 100 Gas -> Ling Speed Queen 75% done Roach Warren Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
How many drones does your build produce when the roaches finish, and at what time do the roaches finish ?
A queen will delay the roaches and/or expo, however it is possible to build 2 queens right after the roaches as you got minerals and 16 drones.
A lot of these builds are not as refined as they could be. I would suggest testing various things out in a build order tester to work the kinks out.
As an example if you want to expand as your roaches move out and deny scouting, you can use a build like this.
9 OL 13 Pool 16 Gas 15 ol When pool finishes, make 1 set of lings, make a queen, put three drones on gas. The pair of lings are used to deny scouting, you can make two sets of lings if you prefer. Make your roach warren when the queen is 35/50 Drone to 20 then make an OL When the larvae pops off, the roach warren will finish at the same time, you will have seven larvae and just enough minerals and gas to make seven roaches. Take one or two drones off of gas depending on how fast you want ling speed and lair. When the roaches hatch, you will have 300 minerals and can expand.
Then while you are scaring your opponent with seven roaches, drone up and take the eco lead quite easily.
edit: saw this was an FE roach rush. Interesting. May have to try it out.
Build I do for 5RR is:
9 OL 13 Pool 12 Gas 15 OL 15 Queen 15 Lings 2 More drones 100 Gas -> Ling Speed Queen 75% done Roach Warren Queen Finishes -> OL
Larvae/Warren/OL finish around the same time.
When Roaches pop overlord and then gauging with my 2 poke lings whether or not my attack will be successful -> expand or spam speedlings rallied to my opponents base.
How many drones does your build produce when the roaches finish, and at what time do the roaches finish ?
A queen will delay the roaches and/or expo, however it is possible to build 2 queens right after the roaches as you got minerals and 16 drones.
I have 16 drones when my roaches are finished. Roaches finish around the 5 minute mark little earlier or later depending on little things.
The thing is, if I do not make my queen before my roaches I have to delay my expand. I can expand as my roaches are moving across the field and then drone up hard. Also I am getting ling speed BEFORE my roaches pop. Ling speed finishes as my roaches are walking across the field as well meaning if I follow up with a round of splings they will be there shortly after I begin my attack. This is best to do against a protoss that is finishing warp. They warp in a round of stalkers and you have 8-12 Lings (depending on if you were saving larvae) on the way.
Getting a queen before roaches does not delay my expo any more than getting 2 of them afterwards would. Spawn Larvae and my roach warren normally pop at the same time so I dont see how my roaches are delayed. I get my 5 roaches immediately and I only get them when I need them (when I am moving out) as opposed to having some sitting in my base doing nothing.
On October 21 2010 04:13 shmoo wrote: A lot of these builds are not as refined as they could be. I would suggest testing various things out in a build order tester to work the kinks out.
As an example if you want to expand as your roaches move out and deny scouting, you can use a build like this.
9 OL 13 Pool 16 Gas 15 ol When pool finishes, make 1 set of lings, make a queen, put three drones on gas. The pair of lings are used to deny scouting, you can make two sets of lings if you prefer. Make your roach warren when the queen is 35/50 Drone to 20 then make an OL When the larvae pops off, the roach warren will finish at the same time, you will have seven larvae and just enough minerals and gas to make seven roaches. Take one or two drones off of gas depending on how fast you want ling speed and lair. When the roaches hatch, you will have 300 minerals and can expand.
Then while you are scaring your opponent with seven roaches, drone up and take the eco lead quite easily.
I get Ling Speed before my roaches. That will not work with 16 gas. A Roach Warren made between 50-75% queen completion will pop at the same time as spawn larvae.
This build order is more all in. 2 more roaches is 150 more minerals and 50 more gas and 2 less drones. Ling speed is important in a roach rush against protoss as you need speedlings for stalkers, and if you arent going all in 2 more roaches shouldn't make or break you, those resources could probably be better used for expanding or teching. Any opponent with 5 roaches on their door step is going to over produce military units. And the ones that dont you are going to lose to.
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote: I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
don't really know what to tell you then, there's absolutely no reason not to dump early gas on sentries to start building their energy asap.
Even if they only have 1 sentry, i assume that means they have more zealots. Which means all he has to do is delay with his 1 ff, warp in some stalkers. And I don't know how zerglings are supposed to get into his base when he built 2-3 zealots early on to wall off.
Umm....roaches attacked the zealots? Roaches kite zealots -> zealots either on hold and die or chase and die, if they chase run speedlings past zealots to surround stalkers -> roaches kill zealots -> finish up stalkers.
The time he had a sentry I believe he cut my roaches into 2 and 3, i focused down the zealots because they were in range then he warped in stalkers to counter my roaches and my speedlings were waiting outside for the FF to go away. FF goes away I simply run in and at this point my second wave of speedlings is on the way. i would imagine the correct thing to do would be warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers to maintain a FF but my opponent is not aware of speedlings waiting outside nor do most people when under pressure have the composure to warp in a caster. People think oh shitshitshit need dps roaches here ok STALKERS! Which is really their downfall.
I'll try to find replays for you I have saved and also I'll open this on toss every opportunity I have and save you more replays. I think the main thing though is all toss scouts at the most is I am researching ling speed. I never ever have let a toss scout my roach warren going down and if they do I would probably cancel and expand.
I've never lost to a zerg doing a roach rush on me even when I've played sloppy and messed up my BO so I don't have enough sentries up or my warpgate came a bit late. Or I would try to do a 2gate/forge/nexus build and would get surprised by a roach push and had to cancel my nexus and lose a pylon. Still held it off easily with ff, stalkers, and warp-in.
When your roaches get split by ff, the majority of your roaches aren't able to attack anything at all while I kill the 2-3 roaches that I split off from your army. I have plenty of time to warp in 2 stalker/1 sentry which gives me even more time to delay to warp in whatever unit I require.
I don't see this build working on anyone competent. I'm no pro or anything, I'm at around low-mid diamond, same as you. There's a reason why we're not seeing any top zergs doing 5RR in pvz.
edit: noticed you said most people don't warp in more sentries. It's kind of essential to have enough sentries to maintain force fields until they're stabalized. If the opponents youre playing never build more than 1 sentry at that stage and never warp in additional sentries, then you might as well baneling bust them every game.
Want to face each other and see exactly how many sentries you can get out?
I honestly just cant see you even able to get 500 gas that quickly especially not while teching robo (many toss I face go Gateway->Cyber->Robo and chronoing WarpTech->Gateway). 500 gas + build time off of 1 or 2 gateways while also building 2-3 zealots. 3 zealots and 5 sentries in under 5 minutes off of 1 or 2 gateways? I don't play toss so I could be way off just seems iffy.
However I am also not saying that 5RR is a top zerg strat, just that I am finding it is still a useful weapon to have in my Build Orders if I see a toss being greedy or if my 2 poke lings scout a shit army composition.
This is what I face more often than not, and he even walled with gate/cyber. Normally I would not have attacked facing that wall but against his army composition I was fairly certain I would come out on top.
Thats 1.1.2, as are the other replays I posed either on page 37 or 38. I have more replays on my computer at home if you want me to upload them. I'm at work right now.
Found 2 others of mine:
I believe I was around 1200 Diamond then, I am a little over 1300 now.
5RR is not a be all end all strategy, its a nice little attack for when your opponents seem unprepared.
Just thought this was a good example of 5RR ZvZ, I did the build order the same but I got my roaches more slowly as I was planning on using them to wall against a ling/bling attack that never ended up coming.
Also I think this replay shows good transition to roach/hydra/infestor...minus the part where I hit B-H instead of V-H...and built a hatchery instead of a hydra den lolz. 1300 diamondish.
This is the 'worst case' Zerg build that I try to counter as Protoss. Usually when scouting reveals the zerg is not doing an FE build, I get a 1-2 zealots to defend against ling cheese, then a sentry, and start pumping stalkers after that. This rush will arrive when I have 1-2 stalkers, and another close to ready. They push ahead and get split up at their own peril. Otherwise, I tend to make additional stalkers to fend off the fast-muta timing, so later roach heavy variations end up just as dead, especially as I prefer to 2 gate robo.
Okay, so I've recently seen roach rushes brought back into popularity in general among the pro scene, and as I was a HUGE proponent of this build from back in the day when this thread was first posted by Fistdantilus I started opening some games with the 5RR again, to see how it would fare now that I've climbed quite a bit higher on the ladder since last august.
But I was a little bit rusty on the build, and instead of searching for this thread I just hit it up on Liquipedia.
Guys, the Liquipedia build is WRONG. Very wrong. It's like some terrible bastardized version of the 7RR all-in, which basically completely defeats the purpose of the 5RR (note the thread title, which was originally meant to read early game aggressionwithout the all-in).
No wonder this build was getting a bad rap from people and died down in the last few months after the thread started to sink into the depths of the forum. I feel like this thread needs a bump so people can give the ORIGINAL 'Fist' build a fresh look in the present day metagame.
The reason it died out, is because its super easy to scout that there is no expo, and so respond correctly. People didnt know what it was, and died to it. Then, people knew what it was, and didnt die to it. And then it died out. And then you necroed the thread. In the meantime, people have come up with different, better, harder to scout builds, like that one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201678¤tpage=5
Except everyone I've seen mention the 5RR lately (and it seems to be popping up a lot) has been listing some 11pool build without zergling speed and all sorts of other differences. It's not the real 5RR. This one, the original 5RR, looks extremely similar to a standard speedling expand until around 20 supply, and it doesn't need to completely deny scouting because it's NOT a cheese build, it's a delayed expansion behind pressure that forces your opponent to react to roaches.
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I actually have been doing this build for several weeks and didn't release it, so I could rack up free wins as no terran or toss players expect Z to do anything early game. That's one huge reason why it keeps working.
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