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[G/D] Baneling bust 2.0

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-14 12:14:47
August 11 2010 11:41 GMT
#1
Baneling bust 2.0

Version
Version 2.01 - 13 aug - 2010 added replays of variations of the build
Version 2.02 - 14 aug - 2010 added a replay of a 550 rated terran going for fast thor AND banshee. made the replay section into different parts for more easy navigation. Changed BO slightly favoring pool first over extractor as I think you waste a larvae otherwise and the gas timing is more perfect like that. Made it clearer that the 16/15 OL should be built during the roach warren gets up.


Disclaimer
Im was a 300rated diamond player climbed to 450 now since my win rate vs terran as gone up a lot. I know its still not high so I'm really interested to hear 600+ Zs input on this. Tested the build a bit now still think it has potential. I have some replays but there is no replay that shows how it would work given perfect play from both players. Most replays are also not interesting after 10min (I do win most of them though). This is only about the opening the transition is for you to decide.

Win rate against T has gone from around 25-40% to 80% for me since starting this BO.


Intro
I think the current Z builds vs T allows him to play really safe, tech whatever he wants, harass however he want, take his FE if he wants. With a play like this maybe T has to adjust his openers to account for a possible attack like this and that will force him to sacrifice other things, in particular timing on higher tech like thor drop, fast banshee, fast FE. Or at the very least force him to wall off with his tech showing you what he does. If the meta game could evolve to deny terran these openers or force him into showing his hand that would be amazing for Z I think. With that said I do not claim to have come up with this all by myself. I got inspired by a TLO game vs brat-ok.


Build order for punishing fast tech and little defense
9 OL
13 Hatch
14 Pool
14 Ext
Drone to 16
when pool pops make queen, roach warren, 2 pairs of lings (make one of them at nat) you have to delay one of the three just a bit. Your choice really I would choose lings. The hatch will pop by now giving you 19/20 (you used one drone on warren).
19 Baneling nest
18 5 roach
(if you scout with worker minerals will be stressed and you might have to do roaches first and baneling nest after but the timing is alright anyway)

Dude your build is not clean and optimized
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.

I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it

There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.

If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.

You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.

TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA

But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)

If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.


How it works
The resources you have here are barely enough to make all this you will only afford 3 roaches at first. You should time all this so that you have 3 larvae on your main. Make these 3 into roaches. Then as soon as you have resources for 2 more roach you make these at your nat. The timing works out so that when the roaches from main move out to your nat the roaches there will finish.

Roaches pop at ~5:20

Move roaches to opponents base. Depending on map the roaches will arrive just as your 4 forward lings have morphed into banelings.

Bust is ready for breaching at about 6min

Bust in if it looks bustable! Scout, scout scout!

During the move to his base and the bust you make OL + drones. 2nd queen when you can afford it. Lair, more gas. etc etc

Other notes:
Before getting the roaches make sure he is not 2-3 raxing if you can.
Before getting the banes scout to know if it actually is bustable - if he is teching. You can do this with your scouting OL. Its ok to loose it at this point. Better to loose one OL then 4 banes and a few roaches for nothing I think.


Variations
If you see 2+ rax (techlabs in particular) the bust will not do enough dmg to be worth it. Consider skipping the roaches / or banes for a bit more eco before starting massing ling/bling. See replays section under 2+ rax! But failing a bust is in no way an insta GG. So if you couldn't scout in any other way, run the roaches up the ramp and see how it looks. If it looks good take the chance cause its your only way now to counter a cliff drop or banshee play as you invested so much gas in early play I think. But you should be able to punish it! If it looks bad retreat and defend and macro drones


Replays
In all replays both sides could have played better. And the bust sometimes doesn't do as much dmg as it could have done due to my shortcomings as a player. This is not about that. Its about the opening and how it can handle different situations. That it will punish very early tech. And to show how the timings work.

pack file of some games: [url blocked]

Punishing teching

Roach bust vs Thor/banshee rush shows exactly what I'm talking about punishing tech and getting that scouting done
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56110-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
+ Show Spoiler +
I think this is the game I am most happy with yet vs a 550 rated T player. My micro gets off at times but all in all a good hectic game. Shows exactly how the rush punishes those fast teching terrans. Now I screwed up my timings on the drones which ended in my having only 4 roach and slightly delayed banes. But bust succeeded and getting it slightly more on time maybe, maybe I could have taken out something more before retreating. The BIG thing for me here though is that I saw exactly what he was gonna do. So I quickly laired for hydras and I proceeded to make as much defense as I could muster.


Blistering Sands (4) fail gas (pack file)
In this replay you can see the timing vs getting a siege tank out even if I screw up the BO its quite clear when the bust happens and what possible dmg it can do.
+ Show Spoiler +
I forget gas at pool. As you can see that gives me way more minerals then I would need and the lack of gas really delays my attack. You can also see the importance of making those first roaches at you main and not at the nat as I did here. You can see the time where the first roaches reach his base. If my timing was spot on I would have busted supply depot with banes and had roaches in the base before the tank was finished. 5 roaches vs 1 tank and 2 marines - I would have done a lot of dmg. and it also shows that minerals is of no concern what so ever for this build if you do not opt to go so gas heavy.


Metalopolis (2) vs 111 no wall off (pack file)
no wall off so naturally early aggression will be good. It shows the timing of the banes and roaches really well even at far positions at meta vs tech build. + Show Spoiler +
With a wall off I wouldn't have done nearly as much dmg as the marines would still be there vs the roaches but it would still be game and I get to see his tech. It would be a macro game from here. If you watch closely you see that I bust at about the same time as he gets a tank out. I'm already in when its finished. And keep in mind this is furthest positions on meta. If it was another map the bust could happen even earlier.


Metalopolis ZvP (pack file)
Well kinda ignore this game as bust just shouldn't work vs toss right.


Vs 2+ rax and the build being able to adapt

Vs 2 rax with techlabs bust fails - I recover
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55347-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
+ Show Spoiler +
And another where the T goes 2 barracks with techlabs and masses maruaders and marines. The bust is totally fail, I see he has a bunch of marines and marauders so I make spines and blings + roach for defense and I hold him off fine. This is a 450 rated terran.
Hopefully better reps to come


I see barrack+tech lab I get scared of reapers so I just go speedlings instantly. So the build can be flexible enough to adjust to rax play.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55374-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +
Turns out it was a marauder and another rax so a bust wouldn't have been optimal anyway. Or it might have as he had all he depos there. oh well. Shows that its easy to transition depending on scout and get a good eco going. Rest of the game I play horrificly and loose. But this is about the opening so it doesnt matter what happens after 10-15min or so. If I had seen an early factory I would go for the bust. So with a scout at 12 you still have room to change strategy.


Scout at 9 which does delay the build a bit but I see 2 rax and react accordingly, again the BO has flexibility to do so.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55919-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis


Lost Temple vs dual rax + fact with lagg (pack file)
Bust can't handle dual rax but that doesn't mean GG for you
+ Show Spoiler +
Bust didn't to that much dmg but I could easily make a army to defend his attack. At around 12-14min I start having 5sec lagg spikes where I can't do anything and maybe 2 sec where I can do something. It gets worse and worse so in the end I 1a2a3a my army and hope it will win me the game which it does. I think this rep shows that even with a failed bust it is possible to get defenses up and hold of a Ts attack while getting a good eco advantage then transition into mutas to further add to that advantage when he takes a 2nd and finally come out on top.



Vs bunker rush

Vs a bunker rush.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55538-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
+ Show Spoiler +
Now imagine IF I had been able to stick to the BO and not get thrown off and gotten 3 banes made, I would seriously cripple him



Vs other kinds of builds as reference for timings for those T BOs

Xel'Naga Caverns vs marine rush (pack file)
Shows that a marine rush is no problem for the BO
+ Show Spoiler +
Clearly you do not need to be afraid that a badly carried out marine attack will kill you. No banelings nest here but shows that early aggression played of early rax happens way to late to threaten you. It can be interesting to watch if you feel like "but what if he goes early marine push" well he wont get to you in time. And I think its something to keep in mind cause you do feel really naked before the first roaches pop out


This is against proxy reaper rax at 11 supply.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55346-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
+ Show Spoiler +
(a 500+ rated terran can you believe that by the way he plays?). He could have killed my whole mineral line if he was any good. But if it wasn't proxy I DO think lings and queen would have come out in time to hold of until roaches came out. As you see roaches pop in time to save FE from reapers. looking at timings it might actually be safe from non proxy reaper?



Discussion
Thread has some good discussion going read it if interested.

Macro up drones and just defend seems the best transition after the bust.

A transition into droning, get fast 2nd, rd, and 4th gas into mutas seems very promising if he over reacts on marauders.

If there is a wall that you cannot bust, then naturally you do not make any banelings and just get lair+eco quicker.

What I feel is so strong with this build is that you do not have to try and bust in instantly. And its by no means an all in build. You can get another wave of roaches instead. Or make tons of drones and static D if he is one basing just focusing on defense and getting eco advantage. You can go ling speed. You can go fast lair and defend with the roaches. I think the opening has LOTS of potential. And as it offers both aggression and defensive capabilities - I think its hard for T to adjust to it even if he scouts your roach warren (which he will cause lings arent out at that point). But there is no way for him to know what you do next without wasting scans. Are you macroing drones? Are you actually going roaches? Are you going speedlings. Are you going banelings for a bust etc.

If this forces terran to wall off with his unit producing structures it makes it much easier to scout his tech and plan accordingly. If it forces him to make some marauders and a bunker then thats great cause he wastes 100gas on just getting 1 marauder (tech lab and marauder) and he wastes minerals. If he uses resources like this on defense he must sacrifice teching and you will have easier time defending and switching it up to mutas will be more powerful. I mean if T starts a engineer bay and turret spree what good is that if you attack with some 20 roaches? But if he wastes recourses on maraduers and you pop in with 5-7 mutas well then he is also in a bad position. Not to mention starting with roach pressure, transition into mutas pressure, and if he gets thors marine you transition into roaches again.


You input is needed!
Would love some input/discussion from ppl higher up in diamond on this 500-600+. And also more replays both from successes and failures so we can help each other refine this BO into something better. I use this site for uploading replays http://www.sc2replayed.com/


Problems
There is controversy about bunker rushes and heavy rax play. Can it hold against a competent bunker rush? Can you get good enough econ and defense to handle mass rax?
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
August 11 2010 12:07 GMT
#2
I didn't read through the post but I think you should add replays to avoid rage by others.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
Fodder03
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada142 Posts
August 11 2010 12:09 GMT
#3
rep plz
Sealteam
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia296 Posts
August 11 2010 12:20 GMT
#4
I'd like to see some replays, will try it out in BO tester then in high diamond games. I like your thinking whether or not it turns out to be a good idea. =)
Invictus
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Singapore2697 Posts
August 11 2010 12:25 GMT
#5
without replays this seems just like pure theorycrafting. So please add some replays!
Lee Jaedong Fighting!
Lykkehjul
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway82 Posts
August 11 2010 12:32 GMT
#6
Gotta try this
<3
Zerokaiser
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada885 Posts
August 11 2010 12:51 GMT
#7
I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest...
Lanaia is love.
Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 13:00:05
August 11 2010 12:58 GMT
#8
On August 11 2010 21:51 Zerokaiser wrote:
I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest...


watch the others then Im in a hurry and will be back later tonight. I might have zipped the wrong replays.

Or its a variation of it that felt better at the time

The one at xel naga is probably without banelings yeah. I rememberd that now. The opening is the same anyway and I included it only to show that early aggression from T (unless he doesnt play standard at all) is no problem for the build.
Yodo
Profile Joined March 2010
Russian Federation327 Posts
August 11 2010 13:22 GMT
#9
It will be hard to deal with fast reapers, a bit greedy for standard play.
Sixes
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada1123 Posts
August 11 2010 13:30 GMT
#10
On August 11 2010 22:22 Yodo wrote:
It will be hard to deal with fast reapers, a bit greedy for standard play.


Actually by the looks of it the build's queen comes up just a little late as do the first 4 lings so reaper/bunkers should be as normal. On the other hand things like reactor hellions and 3 rax reapers may well lose key addons and supply, throwing off their timing and be under pressure from roaches.

At the very least it looks like a nice timing attack to keep those early harass options back while not sacrificing econ much (given the second hatch and the ability to drone hard after the push because Terran is likely defensive and supply blocked). If you scout rax+factory wall with the first 4 lings I suppose you can just get a lair instead of morphing the banelings ... use the lings to keep tabs on him and the roaches to counter hellion/reaper. Remember that rax factory wall offs are a problem for Terran as they mean fewer addons (so they have 1 or 2 naked buildings).

Will try it later today, I like the option of having a push that isn't all in.
Swede
Profile Joined June 2010
New Zealand853 Posts
August 11 2010 13:48 GMT
#11
I like the sound of this. I've been enjoying the aggression that ZvZ allows for so much, so it would be awesome if this build allowed for aggressive play outside of ZvZ.

I'll give it a go tomorrow I think
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19026 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 13:57:21
August 11 2010 13:57 GMT
#12
4 Banelings won't bust a depot wall. The power of the bling bust is that it destroys 1 or 2 supply depots, capping the Terran and preventing reinforcements. If the Terran sees this coming, it's trivial to move a couple SCVs forward to repair and let Marauders pick off your Roaches while reinforcing......just saying.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 14:11:59
August 11 2010 14:04 GMT
#13
On August 11 2010 22:57 tofucake wrote:
4 Banelings won't bust a depot wall. The power of the bling bust is that it destroys 1 or 2 supply depots, capping the Terran and preventing reinforcements. If the Terran sees this coming, it's trivial to move a couple SCVs forward to repair and let Marauders pick off your Roaches while reinforcing......just saying.


No they wont. But 4 banelings and one attack from 3-5 roaches is more then enough to bust down 1 depot instantly and with antoehr attack u can break the 2nd if placed like that (but that is rare anyway).If he sees this coming and make maraduers that early that means no high tech for him and thats good for you.

And IF they are 2 barrack yes those reinforcements comes quick. But the point of the build is not to end the game right there and then. its to create pressure, scout, and maybe harm his eco. And/or force a tech path thats better for you or force tech that means you can transition into something to really hurt him (mutas)

I'm not saying this is something that wins games instantly. But it can give you better control of the game, ability to take 3rd and tech tier 3.


watch all the reps before commenting now. As they highlight different aspects of the build that makes it interesting IMO
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19026 Posts
August 11 2010 14:07 GMT
#14
Sadly, there's not really a tech path that benefits Zerg in TvZ until Zerg hits tier 3. The Zerg has to end the game early (bling bust "1.0") or pray the Terran doesn't mop the floor with them before Ultras pop.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Johnny_Vegas
Profile Joined December 2007
United States239 Posts
August 11 2010 16:30 GMT
#15
I've been wondering if there was someway to combine roaches and banelings in the early game without allowing your econ or tech to suffer too greatly. Your build looks like it could work in some situations, primarily if the Terran is playing very defensively.

I can't image your pool finishes very quickly at all though with the 13 hatch, 14 extractor, 13 pool. Perhaps the same speed as 15 hatch, 14 pool because you'll be down on drones?

Also are you really benefiting from the 2nd hatchery with this build? Certainly its going to be an asset if you survive, but with the costs associated with this rush, because it is a type of rush (as you are cutting drones) I don't see it benefiting you economically for a long while. You simply won't have the minerals to afford many drones (as you said, there are two spots you have to "wait" in your build). Mining from 2 bases with low drone saturation will not increase your income much if any (not if you only have 20 total drones with 3 on gas for example).

I suggest an improvement to this build, and that is to skip the 2nd hatchery, as its dead weight and slows down your rush significantly, UNLESS you are banking on the fact that your bust won't kill the terran, and will force him to play defensively and not attack you afterwards, allowing you to drone like crazy. I gotta admit that's a possibility, but you are really relying on poor scouting by the terran to make it work.

I don't think you are going to bust many terrans with this build (especially if you include the 2nd hatch), and you will often get owned by early reaper/hellion or even just 2 rax reactor marines. If they just turtle, and have a bad wallin this might work. You are really just replacing speedlings with roaches in the standard baneling bust.

Lets look at the comparative costs....

baneling bust 2.0 (a better name might be roach/baneling bust)
-------------------------------------------------------------
  • spawning pool = 200mins and a drone
  • 5 roaches = 375mins/125gas
  • Roach Warren = 150 mins and a drone
  • Baneling Nest = 100/50
  • 4 banelings = 200/100


1025mins/275gas for military structures/units and 3 drones
Supply needed: 12
Larvae: 7


baneling bust 1.0
-------------------------------------------------------------
  • spawning pool = 200mins and a drone
  • 16 lings 400/0
  • zergling speed 100/100
  • Baneling Nest = 100/50
  • 6 Banelings = 300/150


1100/300gas and 2 drones
Supply needed: 11
Larvae: 8


The thing about replacing speedlings with roaches is that if your banelings succeed in creating a breach in the wall the speedlings can stream through and obliterate the scvs, but this is not so with 5 slow roaches. The DPS on 5 roaches is pretty bad and obviously they are very slow units without glial reconstitution. If I used your build, I'd actually approach the ramp with just roaches, start wailing on the depot (better be a depot or the bust has no chance against rax/factory wall) then if I need help killing it (repairing scvs, or marines firing at roaches) that's when I'd bring up the 4 banelings. With luck you'll not have to use all 4 banelings on the depot, and can instead use them against marines or scvs.

Mauraders or bunkers really put a stop to the bust though I gotta say. I'd like to see a build optimized for rushing with like 5 roaches/4banelings/12 slowlings, skipping that 2nd hatch. That's a unit mix that could really put the hurt on terran if you can get it fast enough.
battlereports.com (co-founder/developer), Nohunters Discussion Forum operator
Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 18:59:10
August 11 2010 18:37 GMT
#16
Johnny the difference is that the normal baneling bust is pretty much an all in. If it fails you will be so far behind that you will loose.

If you were to tweak this build into one base you must have a queen to get sufficient larvae and that means you need an inject to get enough units which is 40sec. Note that this build gets pool at 14 after hatch at 13 so the timing is probably very similar compared to just a pool at 14 (in terms of getting enough larvae). Going one base the pool will be up sooner as will the roach warren but you have to wait 40sec for that larvae. With FE you do not have to wait for this and I think that makes up for it time wise, feel free to do some research on timing if you want, but please back it up with facts then not just assumptions. Cause my experience is that this bust is MUCH smoother and much more beneficial then the normal one. It also has the added benefit of being able to quickly get very good eco going compared to one base in which case you'd have to wait for your 2nd hatch to finish. Getting that 2nd hatch early also means that if you see terran massing rax's and your bust would fail and you loose 2 roach. You can pull back and spam crawlers at FE. If you can hold this off then you will quickly have an advantage in the game. See the Lost temple replay where he goes dual rax. If you wouldn't have FEd in this situation I doubt you would be able to get crawlers going in time

Keep in mind you musn't use the units to bust. You can totally skip baneling nest and just macro up like crazy and defend with your units. Now I go for the bust in all my games now cause I wanna get the feel for it. I also do not scout cause I do not wanna get tempted to tweak the build into something that I think will work better. I just do this straight up now and try and nail the timing perfectly. There is also a lot of macro you have to do while busting in. If bust succeeds you wanna scout while the bust is going on and start queen, lair, units, defense as appropriate during the bust. Something I do not have the APM and comfort for in this build.. yet. And you might think I would be in a tight economical spot but I'm not really look at the ZvP game. Look at how many drones I have and how many crawlers I can make and still have a good income going (granted I do not think this is actually viable vs toss but thats not the point here).

This is anything but an all in but an opening that you can tweak however you like into macro, speedlings, no banelings etc. IF the opening is viable then T will have a very hard time knowing what you do and would have to assume baneling every time they see it which I reckon would be really annoying.

And as I said bunkers and marauders DO totally stop this. But as I also said bunkers and marauders means he wont tech to anything that OMFG rapes your army as fast as he would otherwise so a response like this is simply a benefit in itself. You do not have to bust in, you do not have to commit (like you have with the normal banelings bust) you can easily pull back and commence droning and defending. Basicly a normal Z macro game with the difference of having 5 roaches and 4 lings instead of 10-12 speedlings and 2 spines at the very first minutes. Roaches will be very nice to have if he comes with helions. If you can hold 2 base and drone good enough you are in a good spot.

Please watch all the replays as the highlight different aspects of the usefulness of this BO.
Ohdamn
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany765 Posts
August 11 2010 19:43 GMT
#17
"I like the option of having a push that isn't all in."

that's pretty much what i thought too
by cutting the hatch it's an all-in
"If you can chill....chill!"
Zerokaiser
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada885 Posts
August 11 2010 19:49 GMT
#18
On August 11 2010 21:58 Izzachar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 11 2010 21:51 Zerokaiser wrote:
I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest...


watch the others then Im in a hurry and will be back later tonight. I might have zipped the wrong replays.

Or its a variation of it that felt better at the time

The one at xel naga is probably without banelings yeah. I rememberd that now. The opening is the same anyway and I included it only to show that early aggression from T (unless he doesnt play standard at all) is no problem for the build.



Well, the replay I watched was on Lost Temple, so... At least 2 out of 5 of the replays for your baneling bust don't even have banelings.
Lanaia is love.
Zoltan
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States656 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 20:02:00
August 11 2010 19:59 GMT
#19
I'd like to applaud this strat- intuitive econ based timing attacks for zerg dont seem to exist so far in SC2.

My only comment is that vs terran you are giving the T a TON of time to do some scoutign and go with early reaper agression, o- which will be tough to handle on 2 bases. You are either going to lose one base, or lose the ability to be agressive... Also a bio push looks to be problematic, because you FE OR he can tech to banshees. Any way you can push back the expo until after the roach warren is up and still have the opportunity to bust? I think that would close alot of vulnerabilites that you give a terran with such a greedy opening.
'HOW LONG HAVE THOSE REAPERS BEEN KILLING MY PROBES?!?!
Izzachar
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden285 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-11 20:34:21
August 11 2010 20:09 GMT
#20
I'm not claiming this to be the THE build/opening.

Its A build/opening.

And I think its best used in some situations, especially those were terran quickly tech for port or dual factory. But I cannot say when its good yet, and when you wanna do what. I simply lack the experience with it for that. And clearly the opening with roach/baneling gives you nothing in return if T has 4 raxes he pumps marauders and marines from. With proper scouting one should be able to decide when to go for the bust or some other opening strategy to handle the early game

Much the same way you do not 15 hatch 14 pool vs a 10food * 2 gate right? And a very early reaper opening is fairly easy to spot looking at the gas timing. So there will be time to adjust np.

If I scout a 10 rax with tech lab going on I can adjust. If I suspect reaper madness I could go speedlings instead. Use all larvae from hatches after pool pops to get as many lings as I want, I also have a queen on its way for even more potential lings and I have 100 gas at that point for ling speed if thats what I want. This is pretty standard play. What I present here is just a slight variation that can make that into a naughty little timing attack

As of now the bust is one way of using this but you do not have to.

I do not force you to watch the replays you can ignore this thread and move along Zero. But if you are interested then watch all the replays as a single one them alone in no way illustrates the possibilities of the opening. The bust is nice but not always optimal. But if you can squeeze it in it can do damage.

As of now as I said I do not scout. But scouting at 12 or 13 does not hurt the build. Scouting at 9 might get timings off just a little. But thats more of a meta game choice you have to make.

An adjustment I can think of is skipping banes, thats 100gas for lings speed (and you can still get 5 roaches) Or you can go something like 8 lings and 2-3 roaches. It will be later then 14 pool 14 extractor but maybe it has some benefits? Maybe you can get your shit out before 1-2 reapers nukes ure nat? I have no idea. But Im gonna play around with this way more and I would be happy if more ppl did cause I think that having the ability to getting some early aggression on is awesome.
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