Version
Version 2.01 - 13 aug - 2010 added replays of variations of the build
Version 2.02 - 14 aug - 2010 added a replay of a 550 rated terran going for fast thor AND banshee. made the replay section into different parts for more easy navigation. Changed BO slightly favoring pool first over extractor as I think you waste a larvae otherwise and the gas timing is more perfect like that. Made it clearer that the 16/15 OL should be built during the roach warren gets up.
Disclaimer
Im was a 300rated diamond player climbed to 450 now since my win rate vs terran as gone up a lot. I know its still not high so I'm really interested to hear 600+ Zs input on this. Tested the build a bit now still think it has potential. I have some replays but there is no replay that shows how it would work given perfect play from both players. Most replays are also not interesting after 10min (I do win most of them though). This is only about the opening the transition is for you to decide.
Win rate against T has gone from around 25-40% to 80% for me since starting this BO.
Intro
I think the current Z builds vs T allows him to play really safe, tech whatever he wants, harass however he want, take his FE if he wants. With a play like this maybe T has to adjust his openers to account for a possible attack like this and that will force him to sacrifice other things, in particular timing on higher tech like thor drop, fast banshee, fast FE. Or at the very least force him to wall off with his tech showing you what he does. If the meta game could evolve to deny terran these openers or force him into showing his hand that would be amazing for Z I think. With that said I do not claim to have come up with this all by myself. I got inspired by a TLO game vs brat-ok.
Build order for punishing fast tech and little defense
9 OL
13 Hatch
14 Pool
14 Ext
Drone to 16
when pool pops make queen, roach warren, 2 pairs of lings (make one of them at nat) you have to delay one of the three just a bit. Your choice really I would choose lings. The hatch will pop by now giving you 19/20 (you used one drone on warren).
19 Baneling nest
18 5 roach
(if you scout with worker minerals will be stressed and you might have to do roaches first and baneling nest after but the timing is alright anyway)
Dude your build is not clean and optimized
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I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
How it works
The resources you have here are barely enough to make all this you will only afford 3 roaches at first. You should time all this so that you have 3 larvae on your main. Make these 3 into roaches. Then as soon as you have resources for 2 more roach you make these at your nat. The timing works out so that when the roaches from main move out to your nat the roaches there will finish.
Roaches pop at ~5:20
Move roaches to opponents base. Depending on map the roaches will arrive just as your 4 forward lings have morphed into banelings.
Bust is ready for breaching at about 6min
Bust in if it looks bustable! Scout, scout scout!
During the move to his base and the bust you make OL + drones. 2nd queen when you can afford it. Lair, more gas. etc etc
Other notes:
Before getting the roaches make sure he is not 2-3 raxing if you can.
Before getting the banes scout to know if it actually is bustable - if he is teching. You can do this with your scouting OL. Its ok to loose it at this point. Better to loose one OL then 4 banes and a few roaches for nothing I think.
Variations
If you see 2+ rax (techlabs in particular) the bust will not do enough dmg to be worth it. Consider skipping the roaches / or banes for a bit more eco before starting massing ling/bling. See replays section under 2+ rax! But failing a bust is in no way an insta GG. So if you couldn't scout in any other way, run the roaches up the ramp and see how it looks. If it looks good take the chance cause its your only way now to counter a cliff drop or banshee play as you invested so much gas in early play I think. But you should be able to punish it! If it looks bad retreat and defend and macro drones
Replays
In all replays both sides could have played better. And the bust sometimes doesn't do as much dmg as it could have done due to my shortcomings as a player. This is not about that. Its about the opening and how it can handle different situations. That it will punish very early tech. And to show how the timings work.
pack file of some games: [url blocked]
Punishing teching
Roach bust vs Thor/banshee rush shows exactly what I'm talking about punishing tech and getting that scouting done
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56110-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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I think this is the game I am most happy with yet vs a 550 rated T player. My micro gets off at times but all in all a good hectic game. Shows exactly how the rush punishes those fast teching terrans. Now I screwed up my timings on the drones which ended in my having only 4 roach and slightly delayed banes. But bust succeeded and getting it slightly more on time maybe, maybe I could have taken out something more before retreating. The BIG thing for me here though is that I saw exactly what he was gonna do. So I quickly laired for hydras and I proceeded to make as much defense as I could muster.
Blistering Sands (4) fail gas (pack file)
In this replay you can see the timing vs getting a siege tank out even if I screw up the BO its quite clear when the bust happens and what possible dmg it can do.
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I forget gas at pool. As you can see that gives me way more minerals then I would need and the lack of gas really delays my attack. You can also see the importance of making those first roaches at you main and not at the nat as I did here. You can see the time where the first roaches reach his base. If my timing was spot on I would have busted supply depot with banes and had roaches in the base before the tank was finished. 5 roaches vs 1 tank and 2 marines - I would have done a lot of dmg. and it also shows that minerals is of no concern what so ever for this build if you do not opt to go so gas heavy.
Metalopolis (2) vs 111 no wall off (pack file)
no wall off so naturally early aggression will be good. It shows the timing of the banes and roaches really well even at far positions at meta vs tech build. + Show Spoiler +
With a wall off I wouldn't have done nearly as much dmg as the marines would still be there vs the roaches but it would still be game and I get to see his tech. It would be a macro game from here. If you watch closely you see that I bust at about the same time as he gets a tank out. I'm already in when its finished. And keep in mind this is furthest positions on meta. If it was another map the bust could happen even earlier.
Metalopolis ZvP (pack file)
Well kinda ignore this game as bust just shouldn't work vs toss right.
Vs 2+ rax and the build being able to adapt
Vs 2 rax with techlabs bust fails - I recover
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55347-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
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And another where the T goes 2 barracks with techlabs and masses maruaders and marines. The bust is totally fail, I see he has a bunch of marines and marauders so I make spines and blings + roach for defense and I hold him off fine. This is a 450 rated terran.
Hopefully better reps to come
Hopefully better reps to come
I see barrack+tech lab I get scared of reapers so I just go speedlings instantly. So the build can be flexible enough to adjust to rax play.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55374-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
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Turns out it was a marauder and another rax so a bust wouldn't have been optimal anyway. Or it might have as he had all he depos there. oh well. Shows that its easy to transition depending on scout and get a good eco going. Rest of the game I play horrificly and loose. But this is about the opening so it doesnt matter what happens after 10-15min or so. If I had seen an early factory I would go for the bust. So with a scout at 12 you still have room to change strategy.
Scout at 9 which does delay the build a bit but I see 2 rax and react accordingly, again the BO has flexibility to do so.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55919-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Lost Temple vs dual rax + fact with lagg (pack file)
Bust can't handle dual rax but that doesn't mean GG for you
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Bust didn't to that much dmg but I could easily make a army to defend his attack. At around 12-14min I start having 5sec lagg spikes where I can't do anything and maybe 2 sec where I can do something. It gets worse and worse so in the end I 1a2a3a my army and hope it will win me the game which it does. I think this rep shows that even with a failed bust it is possible to get defenses up and hold of a Ts attack while getting a good eco advantage then transition into mutas to further add to that advantage when he takes a 2nd and finally come out on top.
Vs bunker rush
Vs a bunker rush.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55538-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
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Now imagine IF I had been able to stick to the BO and not get thrown off and gotten 3 banes made, I would seriously cripple him
Vs other kinds of builds as reference for timings for those T BOs
Xel'Naga Caverns vs marine rush (pack file)
Shows that a marine rush is no problem for the BO
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Clearly you do not need to be afraid that a badly carried out marine attack will kill you. No banelings nest here but shows that early aggression played of early rax happens way to late to threaten you. It can be interesting to watch if you feel like "but what if he goes early marine push" well he wont get to you in time. And I think its something to keep in mind cause you do feel really naked before the first roaches pop out
This is against proxy reaper rax at 11 supply.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55346-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
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(a 500+ rated terran can you believe that by the way he plays?). He could have killed my whole mineral line if he was any good. But if it wasn't proxy I DO think lings and queen would have come out in time to hold of until roaches came out. As you see roaches pop in time to save FE from reapers. looking at timings it might actually be safe from non proxy reaper?
Discussion
Thread has some good discussion going read it if interested.
Macro up drones and just defend seems the best transition after the bust.
A transition into droning, get fast 2nd, rd, and 4th gas into mutas seems very promising if he over reacts on marauders.
If there is a wall that you cannot bust, then naturally you do not make any banelings and just get lair+eco quicker.
What I feel is so strong with this build is that you do not have to try and bust in instantly. And its by no means an all in build. You can get another wave of roaches instead. Or make tons of drones and static D if he is one basing just focusing on defense and getting eco advantage. You can go ling speed. You can go fast lair and defend with the roaches. I think the opening has LOTS of potential. And as it offers both aggression and defensive capabilities - I think its hard for T to adjust to it even if he scouts your roach warren (which he will cause lings arent out at that point). But there is no way for him to know what you do next without wasting scans. Are you macroing drones? Are you actually going roaches? Are you going speedlings. Are you going banelings for a bust etc.
If this forces terran to wall off with his unit producing structures it makes it much easier to scout his tech and plan accordingly. If it forces him to make some marauders and a bunker then thats great cause he wastes 100gas on just getting 1 marauder (tech lab and marauder) and he wastes minerals. If he uses resources like this on defense he must sacrifice teching and you will have easier time defending and switching it up to mutas will be more powerful. I mean if T starts a engineer bay and turret spree what good is that if you attack with some 20 roaches? But if he wastes recourses on maraduers and you pop in with 5-7 mutas well then he is also in a bad position. Not to mention starting with roach pressure, transition into mutas pressure, and if he gets thors marine you transition into roaches again.
You input is needed!
Would love some input/discussion from ppl higher up in diamond on this 500-600+. And also more replays both from successes and failures so we can help each other refine this BO into something better. I use this site for uploading replays http://www.sc2replayed.com/
Problems
There is controversy about bunker rushes and heavy rax play. Can it hold against a competent bunker rush? Can you get good enough econ and defense to handle mass rax?