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Baneling bust 2.0
Version
Version 2.01 - 13 aug - 2010 added replays of variations of the build
Version 2.02 - 14 aug - 2010 added a replay of a 550 rated terran going for fast thor AND banshee. made the replay section into different parts for more easy navigation. Changed BO slightly favoring pool first over extractor as I think you waste a larvae otherwise and the gas timing is more perfect like that. Made it clearer that the 16/15 OL should be built during the roach warren gets up.
Disclaimer
Im was a 300rated diamond player climbed to 450 now since my win rate vs terran as gone up a lot. I know its still not high so I'm really interested to hear 600+ Zs input on this. Tested the build a bit now still think it has potential. I have some replays but there is no replay that shows how it would work given perfect play from both players. Most replays are also not interesting after 10min (I do win most of them though). This is only about the opening the transition is for you to decide.
Win rate against T has gone from around 25-40% to 80% for me since starting this BO.
Intro
I think the current Z builds vs T allows him to play really safe, tech whatever he wants, harass however he want, take his FE if he wants. With a play like this maybe T has to adjust his openers to account for a possible attack like this and that will force him to sacrifice other things, in particular timing on higher tech like thor drop, fast banshee, fast FE. Or at the very least force him to wall off with his tech showing you what he does. If the meta game could evolve to deny terran these openers or force him into showing his hand that would be amazing for Z I think. With that said I do not claim to have come up with this all by myself. I got inspired by a TLO game vs brat-ok.
Build order for punishing fast tech and little defense
9 OL
13 Hatch
14 Pool
14 Ext
Drone to 16
when pool pops make queen, roach warren, 2 pairs of lings (make one of them at nat) you have to delay one of the three just a bit. Your choice really I would choose lings. The hatch will pop by now giving you 19/20 (you used one drone on warren).
19 Baneling nest
18 5 roach
(if you scout with worker minerals will be stressed and you might have to do roaches first and baneling nest after but the timing is alright anyway)
Dude your build is not clean and optimized
+ Show Spoiler +I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
How it works
The resources you have here are barely enough to make all this you will only afford 3 roaches at first. You should time all this so that you have 3 larvae on your main. Make these 3 into roaches. Then as soon as you have resources for 2 more roach you make these at your nat. The timing works out so that when the roaches from main move out to your nat the roaches there will finish.
Roaches pop at ~5:20
Move roaches to opponents base. Depending on map the roaches will arrive just as your 4 forward lings have morphed into banelings.
Bust is ready for breaching at about 6min
Bust in if it looks bustable! Scout, scout scout!
During the move to his base and the bust you make OL + drones. 2nd queen when you can afford it. Lair, more gas. etc etc
Other notes:
Before getting the roaches make sure he is not 2-3 raxing if you can.
Before getting the banes scout to know if it actually is bustable - if he is teching. You can do this with your scouting OL. Its ok to loose it at this point. Better to loose one OL then 4 banes and a few roaches for nothing I think.
Variations
If you see 2+ rax (techlabs in particular) the bust will not do enough dmg to be worth it. Consider skipping the roaches / or banes for a bit more eco before starting massing ling/bling. See replays section under 2+ rax! But failing a bust is in no way an insta GG. So if you couldn't scout in any other way, run the roaches up the ramp and see how it looks. If it looks good take the chance cause its your only way now to counter a cliff drop or banshee play as you invested so much gas in early play I think. But you should be able to punish it! If it looks bad retreat and defend and macro drones
Replays
In all replays both sides could have played better. And the bust sometimes doesn't do as much dmg as it could have done due to my shortcomings as a player. This is not about that. Its about the opening and how it can handle different situations. That it will punish very early tech. And to show how the timings work.
pack file of some games: [url blocked]
Punishing teching
Roach bust vs Thor/banshee rush shows exactly what I'm talking about punishing tech and getting that scouting done
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56110-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
+ Show Spoiler +I think this is the game I am most happy with yet vs a 550 rated T player. My micro gets off at times but all in all a good hectic game. Shows exactly how the rush punishes those fast teching terrans. Now I screwed up my timings on the drones which ended in my having only 4 roach and slightly delayed banes. But bust succeeded and getting it slightly more on time maybe, maybe I could have taken out something more before retreating. The BIG thing for me here though is that I saw exactly what he was gonna do. So I quickly laired for hydras and I proceeded to make as much defense as I could muster.
Blistering Sands (4) fail gas (pack file)
In this replay you can see the timing vs getting a siege tank out even if I screw up the BO its quite clear when the bust happens and what possible dmg it can do.
+ Show Spoiler +I forget gas at pool. As you can see that gives me way more minerals then I would need and the lack of gas really delays my attack. You can also see the importance of making those first roaches at you main and not at the nat as I did here. You can see the time where the first roaches reach his base. If my timing was spot on I would have busted supply depot with banes and had roaches in the base before the tank was finished. 5 roaches vs 1 tank and 2 marines - I would have done a lot of dmg. and it also shows that minerals is of no concern what so ever for this build if you do not opt to go so gas heavy.
Metalopolis (2) vs 111 no wall off (pack file)
no wall off so naturally early aggression will be good. It shows the timing of the banes and roaches really well even at far positions at meta vs tech build. + Show Spoiler +With a wall off I wouldn't have done nearly as much dmg as the marines would still be there vs the roaches but it would still be game and I get to see his tech. It would be a macro game from here. If you watch closely you see that I bust at about the same time as he gets a tank out. I'm already in when its finished. And keep in mind this is furthest positions on meta. If it was another map the bust could happen even earlier.
Metalopolis ZvP (pack file)
Well kinda ignore this game as bust just shouldn't work vs toss right.
Vs 2+ rax and the build being able to adapt
Vs 2 rax with techlabs bust fails - I recover
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55347-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
+ Show Spoiler +And another where the T goes 2 barracks with techlabs and masses maruaders and marines. The bust is totally fail, I see he has a bunch of marines and marauders so I make spines and blings + roach for defense and I hold him off fine. This is a 450 rated terran.
Hopefully better reps to come
I see barrack+tech lab I get scared of reapers so I just go speedlings instantly. So the build can be flexible enough to adjust to rax play.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55374-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +Turns out it was a marauder and another rax so a bust wouldn't have been optimal anyway. Or it might have as he had all he depos there. oh well. Shows that its easy to transition depending on scout and get a good eco going. Rest of the game I play horrificly and loose. But this is about the opening so it doesnt matter what happens after 10-15min or so. If I had seen an early factory I would go for the bust. So with a scout at 12 you still have room to change strategy.
Scout at 9 which does delay the build a bit but I see 2 rax and react accordingly, again the BO has flexibility to do so.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55919-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Lost Temple vs dual rax + fact with lagg (pack file)
Bust can't handle dual rax but that doesn't mean GG for you
+ Show Spoiler +Bust didn't to that much dmg but I could easily make a army to defend his attack. At around 12-14min I start having 5sec lagg spikes where I can't do anything and maybe 2 sec where I can do something. It gets worse and worse so in the end I 1a2a3a my army and hope it will win me the game which it does. I think this rep shows that even with a failed bust it is possible to get defenses up and hold of a Ts attack while getting a good eco advantage then transition into mutas to further add to that advantage when he takes a 2nd and finally come out on top.
Vs bunker rush
Vs a bunker rush.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55538-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
+ Show Spoiler +Now imagine IF I had been able to stick to the BO and not get thrown off and gotten 3 banes made, I would seriously cripple him
Vs other kinds of builds as reference for timings for those T BOs
Xel'Naga Caverns vs marine rush (pack file)
Shows that a marine rush is no problem for the BO
+ Show Spoiler +Clearly you do not need to be afraid that a badly carried out marine attack will kill you. No banelings nest here but shows that early aggression played of early rax happens way to late to threaten you. It can be interesting to watch if you feel like "but what if he goes early marine push" well he wont get to you in time. And I think its something to keep in mind cause you do feel really naked before the first roaches pop out
This is against proxy reaper rax at 11 supply.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55346-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
+ Show Spoiler +(a 500+ rated terran can you believe that by the way he plays?). He could have killed my whole mineral line if he was any good. But if it wasn't proxy I DO think lings and queen would have come out in time to hold of until roaches came out. As you see roaches pop in time to save FE from reapers. looking at timings it might actually be safe from non proxy reaper?
Discussion
Thread has some good discussion going read it if interested.
Macro up drones and just defend seems the best transition after the bust.
A transition into droning, get fast 2nd, rd, and 4th gas into mutas seems very promising if he over reacts on marauders.
If there is a wall that you cannot bust, then naturally you do not make any banelings and just get lair+eco quicker.
What I feel is so strong with this build is that you do not have to try and bust in instantly. And its by no means an all in build. You can get another wave of roaches instead. Or make tons of drones and static D if he is one basing just focusing on defense and getting eco advantage. You can go ling speed. You can go fast lair and defend with the roaches. I think the opening has LOTS of potential. And as it offers both aggression and defensive capabilities - I think its hard for T to adjust to it even if he scouts your roach warren (which he will cause lings arent out at that point). But there is no way for him to know what you do next without wasting scans. Are you macroing drones? Are you actually going roaches? Are you going speedlings. Are you going banelings for a bust etc.
If this forces terran to wall off with his unit producing structures it makes it much easier to scout his tech and plan accordingly. If it forces him to make some marauders and a bunker then thats great cause he wastes 100gas on just getting 1 marauder (tech lab and marauder) and he wastes minerals. If he uses resources like this on defense he must sacrifice teching and you will have easier time defending and switching it up to mutas will be more powerful. I mean if T starts a engineer bay and turret spree what good is that if you attack with some 20 roaches? But if he wastes recourses on maraduers and you pop in with 5-7 mutas well then he is also in a bad position. Not to mention starting with roach pressure, transition into mutas pressure, and if he gets thors marine you transition into roaches again.
You input is needed!
Would love some input/discussion from ppl higher up in diamond on this 500-600+. And also more replays both from successes and failures so we can help each other refine this BO into something better. I use this site for uploading replays http://www.sc2replayed.com/
Problems
There is controversy about bunker rushes and heavy rax play. Can it hold against a competent bunker rush? Can you get good enough econ and defense to handle mass rax?
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I didn't read through the post but I think you should add replays to avoid rage by others.
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I'd like to see some replays, will try it out in BO tester then in high diamond games. I like your thinking whether or not it turns out to be a good idea. =)
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without replays this seems just like pure theorycrafting. So please add some replays!
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Gotta try this 
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I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest...
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On August 11 2010 21:51 Zerokaiser wrote:
I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest...
watch the others then Im in a hurry and will be back later tonight. I might have zipped the wrong replays.
Or its a variation of it that felt better at the time
The one at xel naga is probably without banelings yeah. I rememberd that now. The opening is the same anyway and I included it only to show that early aggression from T (unless he doesnt play standard at all) is no problem for the build.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
It will be hard to deal with fast reapers, a bit greedy for standard play.
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On August 11 2010 22:22 Yodo wrote:
It will be hard to deal with fast reapers, a bit greedy for standard play.
Actually by the looks of it the build's queen comes up just a little late as do the first 4 lings so reaper/bunkers should be as normal. On the other hand things like reactor hellions and 3 rax reapers may well lose key addons and supply, throwing off their timing and be under pressure from roaches.
At the very least it looks like a nice timing attack to keep those early harass options back while not sacrificing econ much (given the second hatch and the ability to drone hard after the push because Terran is likely defensive and supply blocked). If you scout rax+factory wall with the first 4 lings I suppose you can just get a lair instead of morphing the banelings ... use the lings to keep tabs on him and the roaches to counter hellion/reaper. Remember that rax factory wall offs are a problem for Terran as they mean fewer addons (so they have 1 or 2 naked buildings).
Will try it later today, I like the option of having a push that isn't all in.
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I like the sound of this. I've been enjoying the aggression that ZvZ allows for so much, so it would be awesome if this build allowed for aggressive play outside of ZvZ.
I'll give it a go tomorrow I think 
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Hyrule19027 Posts
4 Banelings won't bust a depot wall. The power of the bling bust is that it destroys 1 or 2 supply depots, capping the Terran and preventing reinforcements. If the Terran sees this coming, it's trivial to move a couple SCVs forward to repair and let Marauders pick off your Roaches while reinforcing......just saying.
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On August 11 2010 22:57 tofucake wrote:
4 Banelings won't bust a depot wall. The power of the bling bust is that it destroys 1 or 2 supply depots, capping the Terran and preventing reinforcements. If the Terran sees this coming, it's trivial to move a couple SCVs forward to repair and let Marauders pick off your Roaches while reinforcing......just saying.
No they wont. But 4 banelings and one attack from 3-5 roaches is more then enough to bust down 1 depot instantly and with antoehr attack u can break the 2nd if placed like that (but that is rare anyway).If he sees this coming and make maraduers that early that means no high tech for him and thats good for you.
And IF they are 2 barrack yes those reinforcements comes quick. But the point of the build is not to end the game right there and then. its to create pressure, scout, and maybe harm his eco. And/or force a tech path thats better for you or force tech that means you can transition into something to really hurt him (mutas)
I'm not saying this is something that wins games instantly. But it can give you better control of the game, ability to take 3rd and tech tier 3.
watch all the reps before commenting now. As they highlight different aspects of the build that makes it interesting IMO
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Hyrule19027 Posts
Sadly, there's not really a tech path that benefits Zerg in TvZ until Zerg hits tier 3. The Zerg has to end the game early (bling bust "1.0") or pray the Terran doesn't mop the floor with them before Ultras pop.
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I've been wondering if there was someway to combine roaches and banelings in the early game without allowing your econ or tech to suffer too greatly. Your build looks like it could work in some situations, primarily if the Terran is playing very defensively.
I can't image your pool finishes very quickly at all though with the 13 hatch, 14 extractor, 13 pool. Perhaps the same speed as 15 hatch, 14 pool because you'll be down on drones?
Also are you really benefiting from the 2nd hatchery with this build? Certainly its going to be an asset if you survive, but with the costs associated with this rush, because it is a type of rush (as you are cutting drones) I don't see it benefiting you economically for a long while. You simply won't have the minerals to afford many drones (as you said, there are two spots you have to "wait" in your build). Mining from 2 bases with low drone saturation will not increase your income much if any (not if you only have 20 total drones with 3 on gas for example).
I suggest an improvement to this build, and that is to skip the 2nd hatchery, as its dead weight and slows down your rush significantly, UNLESS you are banking on the fact that your bust won't kill the terran, and will force him to play defensively and not attack you afterwards, allowing you to drone like crazy. I gotta admit that's a possibility, but you are really relying on poor scouting by the terran to make it work.
I don't think you are going to bust many terrans with this build (especially if you include the 2nd hatch), and you will often get owned by early reaper/hellion or even just 2 rax reactor marines. If they just turtle, and have a bad wallin this might work. You are really just replacing speedlings with roaches in the standard baneling bust.
Lets look at the comparative costs....
baneling bust 2.0 (a better name might be roach/baneling bust)
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- spawning pool = 200mins and a drone
- 5 roaches = 375mins/125gas
- Roach Warren = 150 mins and a drone
- Baneling Nest = 100/50
- 4 banelings = 200/100
1025mins/275gas for military structures/units and 3 drones
Supply needed: 12
Larvae: 7
baneling bust 1.0
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- spawning pool = 200mins and a drone
- 16 lings 400/0
- zergling speed 100/100
- Baneling Nest = 100/50
- 6 Banelings = 300/150
1100/300gas and 2 drones
Supply needed: 11
Larvae: 8
The thing about replacing speedlings with roaches is that if your banelings succeed in creating a breach in the wall the speedlings can stream through and obliterate the scvs, but this is not so with 5 slow roaches. The DPS on 5 roaches is pretty bad and obviously they are very slow units without glial reconstitution. If I used your build, I'd actually approach the ramp with just roaches, start wailing on the depot (better be a depot or the bust has no chance against rax/factory wall) then if I need help killing it (repairing scvs, or marines firing at roaches) that's when I'd bring up the 4 banelings. With luck you'll not have to use all 4 banelings on the depot, and can instead use them against marines or scvs.
Mauraders or bunkers really put a stop to the bust though I gotta say. I'd like to see a build optimized for rushing with like 5 roaches/4banelings/12 slowlings, skipping that 2nd hatch. That's a unit mix that could really put the hurt on terran if you can get it fast enough.
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Johnny the difference is that the normal baneling bust is pretty much an all in. If it fails you will be so far behind that you will loose.
If you were to tweak this build into one base you must have a queen to get sufficient larvae and that means you need an inject to get enough units which is 40sec. Note that this build gets pool at 14 after hatch at 13 so the timing is probably very similar compared to just a pool at 14 (in terms of getting enough larvae). Going one base the pool will be up sooner as will the roach warren but you have to wait 40sec for that larvae. With FE you do not have to wait for this and I think that makes up for it time wise, feel free to do some research on timing if you want, but please back it up with facts then not just assumptions. Cause my experience is that this bust is MUCH smoother and much more beneficial then the normal one. It also has the added benefit of being able to quickly get very good eco going compared to one base in which case you'd have to wait for your 2nd hatch to finish. Getting that 2nd hatch early also means that if you see terran massing rax's and your bust would fail and you loose 2 roach. You can pull back and spam crawlers at FE. If you can hold this off then you will quickly have an advantage in the game. See the Lost temple replay where he goes dual rax. If you wouldn't have FEd in this situation I doubt you would be able to get crawlers going in time
Keep in mind you musn't use the units to bust. You can totally skip baneling nest and just macro up like crazy and defend with your units. Now I go for the bust in all my games now cause I wanna get the feel for it. I also do not scout cause I do not wanna get tempted to tweak the build into something that I think will work better. I just do this straight up now and try and nail the timing perfectly. There is also a lot of macro you have to do while busting in. If bust succeeds you wanna scout while the bust is going on and start queen, lair, units, defense as appropriate during the bust. Something I do not have the APM and comfort for in this build.. yet. And you might think I would be in a tight economical spot but I'm not really look at the ZvP game. Look at how many drones I have and how many crawlers I can make and still have a good income going (granted I do not think this is actually viable vs toss but thats not the point here).
This is anything but an all in but an opening that you can tweak however you like into macro, speedlings, no banelings etc. IF the opening is viable then T will have a very hard time knowing what you do and would have to assume baneling every time they see it which I reckon would be really annoying.
And as I said bunkers and marauders DO totally stop this. But as I also said bunkers and marauders means he wont tech to anything that OMFG rapes your army as fast as he would otherwise so a response like this is simply a benefit in itself. You do not have to bust in, you do not have to commit (like you have with the normal banelings bust) you can easily pull back and commence droning and defending. Basicly a normal Z macro game with the difference of having 5 roaches and 4 lings instead of 10-12 speedlings and 2 spines at the very first minutes. Roaches will be very nice to have if he comes with helions. If you can hold 2 base and drone good enough you are in a good spot.
Please watch all the replays as the highlight different aspects of the usefulness of this BO.
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"I like the option of having a push that isn't all in."
that's pretty much what i thought too
by cutting the hatch it's an all-in
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On August 11 2010 21:58 Izzachar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2010 21:51 Zerokaiser wrote:
I only watched one of those replays, and you didn't even make a baneling nest... watch the others then Im in a hurry and will be back later tonight. I might have zipped the wrong replays. Or its a variation of it that felt better at the time The one at xel naga is probably without banelings yeah. I rememberd that now. The opening is the same anyway and I included it only to show that early aggression from T (unless he doesnt play standard at all) is no problem for the build.
Well, the replay I watched was on Lost Temple, so... At least 2 out of 5 of the replays for your baneling bust don't even have banelings.
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I'd like to applaud this strat- intuitive econ based timing attacks for zerg dont seem to exist so far in SC2.
My only comment is that vs terran you are giving the T a TON of time to do some scoutign and go with early reaper agression, o- which will be tough to handle on 2 bases. You are either going to lose one base, or lose the ability to be agressive... Also a bio push looks to be problematic, because you FE OR he can tech to banshees. Any way you can push back the expo until after the roach warren is up and still have the opportunity to bust? I think that would close alot of vulnerabilites that you give a terran with such a greedy opening.
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I'm not claiming this to be the THE build/opening.
Its A build/opening.
And I think its best used in some situations, especially those were terran quickly tech for port or dual factory. But I cannot say when its good yet, and when you wanna do what. I simply lack the experience with it for that. And clearly the opening with roach/baneling gives you nothing in return if T has 4 raxes he pumps marauders and marines from. With proper scouting one should be able to decide when to go for the bust or some other opening strategy to handle the early game
Much the same way you do not 15 hatch 14 pool vs a 10food * 2 gate right? And a very early reaper opening is fairly easy to spot looking at the gas timing. So there will be time to adjust np.
If I scout a 10 rax with tech lab going on I can adjust. If I suspect reaper madness I could go speedlings instead. Use all larvae from hatches after pool pops to get as many lings as I want, I also have a queen on its way for even more potential lings and I have 100 gas at that point for ling speed if thats what I want. This is pretty standard play. What I present here is just a slight variation that can make that into a naughty little timing attack
As of now the bust is one way of using this but you do not have to.
I do not force you to watch the replays you can ignore this thread and move along Zero. But if you are interested then watch all the replays as a single one them alone in no way illustrates the possibilities of the opening. The bust is nice but not always optimal. But if you can squeeze it in it can do damage.
As of now as I said I do not scout. But scouting at 12 or 13 does not hurt the build. Scouting at 9 might get timings off just a little. But thats more of a meta game choice you have to make.
An adjustment I can think of is skipping banes, thats 100gas for lings speed (and you can still get 5 roaches) Or you can go something like 8 lings and 2-3 roaches. It will be later then 14 pool 14 extractor but maybe it has some benefits? Maybe you can get your shit out before 1-2 reapers nukes ure nat? I have no idea. But Im gonna play around with this way more and I would be happy if more ppl did cause I think that having the ability to getting some early aggression on is awesome.
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If you scout reapers you can just skip the baneling nest for lair + ling speed. Use queens and lings to defend the initial reapers while pressuring your opponent with your roaches. Even without a baneling if they're pumping reapers they'll have trouble getting a good defense ready for your roaches.
I used to do this on 1 base with...
14gas
13pool
roach warren + 2x queen
4-6 roaches (variable depending on how many drones/lings I pump and when I toss down the warren*)
Expand + lair + speedling
roach speed
and it'd shut down any delayed reapers or mass LZGamer reaper styles. You can't always bust in on their side, but you can usually pull back their reapers at least. It kinda depends on whether or not they can get out a marauder in time. Even so if you get them off reapers you've done what you needed.
Doing it with 2 bases would be trickier, but it seems like you could make it work.
*I warren ideally at queen 75% done because then warren + vomit happen at the same time, but if I can't get the scout out by then I may delay it
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Let me be the first to dub this the 'Bro Bust'. Even if it's not a good build, although I think it will be (gets around the problems had by DIMAGA etc trying to apply early roach pressure to T off 1 base), it will be popular on name alone. Bro' Bust that bro, bro.
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Given that TLO did a 12, 13 hatch, why do you think the 9OL is better? I know it generates more income beyond the 15 drone mark, but a 12OL might be better for this (given the very very early hatch at 13, as a 12OL generates more income early but does worse then 9OL latter).
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I tried the build out on Xel Naga (no opponent, havent had time to play just wanted to test the build) and the timing is quite nice.
On Xel Naga I hit the opponent's base with the 5 roaches 4 banelings on the 6:15 mark without any crazy practice (I believe Xel Naga is a pretty long rush though).
Looking at my past games this is countered if they have gone for marauders but could still retreat (concussive is not quite finished, just 1 marauder out) and probably pick off the front tech lab (which was researching concussive shells actually so that could be extra, delaying the tech lab would delay the shell upgrade by tech lab time +research time all over again), thus stalling the marauder flow and delaying the push. As far as I could tell the lair can come up just as the push goes in and you can pump drones as the micro is happening. To my knowledge combined with the defensive stance the Terran will be in after banelings show up this means mutas will be nicely up (actually from after the push it plays a lot like 2 base play if you are forced to go defensive).
I honestly think this is a great play to avoid taking damage from harass and instead having the possibility to pressure him.
I noted that the absolute fastest banshee starts being built (as in the starport is just transferred to the tech lab at a little after 6:00). This means that a fast banshee build gets absolutely owned as he would have just a few marines, a basic wall and the banshee comes out a little too late to avoid a ton of damage.
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Having played this about 15 times against diamond players, I got to say this has some real potential. I played it more TLO style with a double extracter trick OL into 13 hatchery. I won outright about 50% of the time. The times I lost, it was usualy because of poor micro or not macroing enough while I attack (very very critical in this build like most early attacks). Things that did well against this build were fast 2 rax marauder (with almost no marines) and fast reactor hellions. The hellions can kill those lings/banelings very quickly if they see them which totaly stops the bust, and they can runby the roaches if they are too far out and own your drones. Fast marauder tends to do well because it just kills the roaches, then the counter push is very tough to beat (go to switch to mass speedling asap to have a chance). Banshies were too slow, and the tank that did come out meant they didnt have much of an army with it and the tank died quickly. I only had a few people try reaper against it, the roaches seemed to do ok (come out quick enough), and roaches tend to be one of the best counters to reaper (given they are armored).
I also did this several tiems on steps of war, and predectably on that map got bunker rushed almost every time, I lost my second hatch once because I miss timed it, but even that I think I could have held. The roaches come out in time to defend the hatch, and roaches are very good against marines, even in bunkers. The other option I havent tried out yet, is to just let the second hatch die, and counter attack with the roaches at his main going around the bunkers. (using the queen and 4 lings switched to banelings to defend against a marine counter to your main).
The really nice thing about this, is even when my attack got totaly crushed by mass marauder. I still felt like It wasnt All-In and I insta-lose do to bad econ. Your econ is definatly lower then a normal zerg, but with 2 hatches you can quickly catch up if you get the chance (after you stop the mass marauder push).
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Sixes and Obsid glad to see your input. I'm also of the opinion that the build can give you an "insta win" (you wont kill him but you will kill of techlabs, depots and scvs in good numbers) or get very huge lead vs fast banshee play and thor drop play or dual factory. Cause by the time you get there all the T has with those builds are a few marines. While insta wins are nice its not what I think ppl should have in mind when playing like this (its not like normal banelings bust in that sense but neither is it an all in and should not be treated as such).
A lot of ppl say that they dont know if T is going for this or that and its very hard to defend against everything. Well this opening rules out several of the quick higher tech paths by punishing them hard as well as it lets you scout it so you know what T is doing. If the build is solid enough to punish quick tech builds by T. You can adjust it so that you always focus it to be able to handle a mass rax counter attack / helion harass since you know its the only tech paths T can go without getting busted and getting a huge disadvantage. The only games where I lost or the game has gone over 20min has been with more then 2 rax openings. And I never lost to sneaky play only to a doom drop in my main since doing the build. So if the bust fails you haven't lost by far. And dealing with bio I'm way more comfortable with then dealing with thor,helion,tank.
I had a game yesterday vs a T that proxy reapered me. But he played it badly. He ran away when I attacked with drones and seconds later lings came out, again he ran away and picked of lings, then queen and roaches came out. I did loose quite a few drones but my counter attack with roaches did enough dmg to get me in the lead. No banelings used in that game. I still think if you see a early rax and early gas and tech lab going on that a cancel on hatch, pool asap with gas for ling speed might be a better choice. Haven't faced the 3 rax reaper yet. But as logo said instead of maybe getting the baneling nest we can get ling speed and have both roaches and speedlings on the field quickly to punish it, that sounds really interesting.
What needs to be incorporated in the build is sufficient scouting to determine when the T is fast teching - then the bust is a very good idea. With other T openings the bust might not be a good idea but you have some early defense vs helions and I think 5 roaches can do the job as good as 6 lings and 2 spines and the cost is almost the same. If its 3 rax its simply stupid to try and bust in. Just skip banelings completely and macro a bit more. And if T does a very good job hiding tech (marines around base to kill OLs) I do think that a bust is the best option you have. Cause you do not know if he is going thor drop, siege drop, banshees or mass rax and that is a position that can mean a loss in itself. And I do think sacrificing 4 banelings and a few roaches to find out what he is doing to be worth it and if you are lucky you might even catch him with his pants down going fast tech, if he does have 3 rax and you loose all but 2 roaches, pull back and commence defending your expo. Chances are you at least got a depot and maybe even a techlab kill even when facing mass raxes and that might slow him down a little. If you can keep macro up during the bust then you are in a decent position especially since you now know exactly what the T is doing and what kind of army he has.
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although I really like the idea, I think the BO has to be refined a little. When I do it, I often have 3 larvae sitting around doing nothing. I'd like to see whether it wouldn't be possible to suqeeze in another OL and drone a little harder, but I'm still testing! Will keep you updated on what I find out!
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On August 12 2010 19:26 mathemagician1986 wrote:
although I really like the idea, I think the BO has to be refined a little. When I do it, I often have 3 larvae sitting around doing nothing. I'd like to see whether it wouldn't be possible to suqeeze in another OL and drone a little harder, but I'm still testing! Will keep you updated on what I find out!
Awesome.
I kinda like the dual extractor idea into hatch. Gotta sit down some day in build order tester and check timings.
You are spot on here with that a faster bust doesn't have to be whats most important in the BO. As long as the bust can punish fast teching it does its job. Getting the BO to be optimal in terms of long term eco should be the goal while still being able to punish the fast tech BOs from T. So I really like your OL and drone approach.
The eco with this opening is actually pretty good if you skip the banelings. Cause then you can pull drones of gas when its at 125 for a bit and you can even skip 1 pair of lings for a drone. But for the bust to work I feel those 4 banelings are instrumental.
But maybe theres a BO that can get 4 banelings and 5 roaches like 10sec later that setups for a better ECO. That I would be really interested in.
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About the scouting and macro, the nice thing about this relatively late rush is that you should be able to get an OL there before the attack so you can at least check whats right behind the wall (which often gives away marauder play) and the composition of the wall (notably whether you can take out a supply depot and a tech lab with the banelings). If you take out a tech lab it reduces the strength of the counter push as well.
I think that a nice addition to the BO would be thinking about what should be built during the rush. Given the hardest counter push is with marauders, I would suggest getting ling speed (I noticed I hit 100 gas just after the push starts) which means marauder counters are bad OR lair for mutas as a fast follow up. If the lair, probably want another geyser.
Larvae should probably be just for drones at this point (with a second queen). This means we can actually get 2 decent expands up and still have 2 batches of larva to make defenses with if needed.
The beauty of it is we have roaches or banelings or speedlings at this point which can counter any ground push (especially a weakened one because of the rush) and if he went for fast air it should be very crippled (and the lair can be on the way, as well as a third queen if needed).
Edit: I'm not particularly keen on the idea of pulling drones from gas, we need 225 for the roaches and banelings and should probably get speedlings and/or lair asap as well as have some gas for defense if needed ... key points here are, just as you hit 28/28 and 100 minerals, make an OL, then at 100 gas get speedlings or lair right away, then drone, the 100 minerals should be as the roaches are crossing the map.
Another selling point is that it messes with Terran's scouting. With an early hatch they won't be expecting the 1 base busts (or at least have to plan for a potentially hard macroing zerg or fast 2 base muta or something). And we all know how annoying it is to see everything and still have no clue as to what's happening
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This is super super super interesting.
I'm sorry i can't add nothing but this at the moment, i'm going to make some test myself too so i can give some more feedback.
I feel right now that Terrans can get a lot of info from a simple scout (fast lair? 1 base? 2 base? 1 or 2 gases?)... this build seems to be more flexible than the others i've seen on that aspect...
Cheers!!
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I did something similar today on LT, well similar... No banelings, but i tried to go fast roach and bust into terran. I got in. Killed lots of scvs, then marauder fended me off. But he got like 6 scv's vs my 20 drones. I expanded while attacking. GG rite? No.
SURPRISE. Tank drop on cliff above my expo. Unstopable. Bye expo. He expoed himself. I did muta. He got thors. 2 base terran vs 1 base zerg. Thor push moves out. GG
Sorry for the bitterness. Back on topic. Watched your replays. I'm gonna give it a try just because I'm sick of being under siege in this game for 90% of the time. Even ZvP 100% of the games i just wait for him to push out while i eco and def. I want to attack once in a while too
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On August 13 2010 01:13 bodycount wrote:
SURPRISE. Tank drop on cliff above my expo. Unstopable. Bye expo. He expoed himself. I did muta. He got thors. 2 base terran vs 1 base zerg. Thor push moves out. GG
Didn't you see factory + tech lab and starport when you got into his base? That should really trigger an alarm that something fishy is about to happen. I would definitely prepare to counter what he might be up to and if it was a map with cliff above expo I would assume some nasty harass and would definitely get mutas asap. You do not have to totally commit to mutas just make like 5 that should keep him in his base long enough for you to decide more muta, hydras, roaches, blings, slings, or tech hive. And if I saw techlab on factory or starport I would have them as one of my primary targets when busting in.
Transition into muta if you get in and do dmg and see mech starport play I think is a really good decision as it allows you to once again see exactly what T is doing and it also gives map control and harass and it can defend from most harass as well.
About the scouting and macro, the nice thing about this relatively late rush is that you should be able to get an OL there before the attack so you can at least check whats right behind the wall (which often gives away marauder play) and the composition of the wall (notably whether you can take out a supply depot and a tech lab with the banelings). If you take out a tech lab it reduces the strength of the counter push as well.
Scouting with OL is definitely a possibility but if T decides to move out and shoot it down your timing will be so messed up. I'm considering a drone scout at around 13-14 maybe? Or slightly earlier to get into his base and watch gas timings, then you can run around drone a long time in there and watch whats next with proper micro and gas stealing one marine has to struggle to stop you scouting. I usually die before I can get enough info but good players seem to keep their drone alive quite some time.
I think that a nice addition to the BO would be thinking about what should be built during the rush. Given the hardest counter push is with marauders, I would suggest getting ling speed (I noticed I hit 100 gas just after the push starts) which means marauder counters are bad OR lair for mutas as a fast follow up. If the lair, probably want another geyser.
This is exactly why I wrote D in the topic. I wanna have a discussion on this how to improve this build the most. I only came up with the opener and thought it had lots of potential but how to transition from it depending on scouting - I would like a good discussion on, and if we draw some conclusions we can agree on - I will certainly add that to the OP.
Larvae should probably be just for drones at this point (with a second queen). This means we can actually get 2 decent expands up and still have 2 batches of larva to make defenses with if needed.
I agree most times droning seems like the best idea. You are a bit behind in eco and need to make up for it either way. Droning hard you can get a really nice eco quickly. But thats risky if T intends to attack early. How much we can drone and how much defense that would be needed against some fairly common timing attack of 3-4 rax would need to be examined. So far I have been able to hold off all rax plays I had against me except one that doom dropped my main.
The beauty of it is we have roaches or banelings or speedlings at this point which can counter any ground push (especially a weakened one because of the rush) and if he went for fast air it should be very crippled (and the lair can be on the way, as well as a third queen if needed).
Yeah I agree. Its a opener that is very easy to adapt from. If we see 7 rax spamming marines we can easily get blings. If we see starport lair and hydra/muta is not far away. Getting 3-4 gas up also goes quickly.
Edit: I'm not particularly keen on the idea of pulling drones from gas, we need 225 for the roaches and banelings and should probably get speedlings and/or lair asap as well as have some gas for defense if needed ... key points here are, just as you hit 28/28 and 100 minerals, make an OL, then at 100 gas get speedlings or lair right away, then drone, the 100 minerals should be as the roaches are crossing the map.
For now I do prefer having the blings and keep drones there and have the ability to tech lair quick and/or speed quick just as you. When I started doing the build I got gas a bit later. it gives more minerals. It could be an option though in some variant of the opening (like if we scout T going heavy on the marauders or smth). I'm just highlighting that but I do agree that the gas gives a lot of flexibility early on.
Another selling point is that it messes with Terran's scouting. With an early hatch they won't be expecting the 1 base busts (or at least have to plan for a potentially hard macroing zerg or fast 2 base muta or something). And we all know how annoying it is to see everything and still have no clue as to what's happening
This is what I think is the major strength with the build. If the metagame evovles and this build gets useful and popular a T scouting it, he shouldn't even dare going for fast banshees or fast thor drop / tank drop. He would have to make marauders to feel safe OR wall off with production buildings. In both cases thats a major advantage to Z. Either you will see his tech by forcing a dual facility wall off or you will force him into marauders. And if we scout him going marauders we can skip the banes, use roaches for defense and drone hard. And then you can just mass speedling baneling and feel safe for a time while getting mutas to effectively deal with any kind of later cliff harass or banshee.
I never transitioned into speedlings myself. I have only tried a muta transtion but I think the mutas are risky if you suspect a very fast ground counter attack. In a lot of other situations a muta transition seems to be really good though. Muta transition might be best if you see that the T adapts to your play and starts making marauders as opposed to already having a number of them. If he already had marauders then a transition into sling bling is probably the way to go as the counter attack is probably gonna be at your door before you can get mutas out.
This is now theorycrafting with some experience thrown in to back it up on my part. But I think to develop this into a stronger build I rather have more ppl involved then playing 100 games myself to start drawing solid conclusions about its usefulness and possible transitions and how to react to different kind of scouting information
Sorry for sloppy english Im tired.
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If rushed banshees aren't a proble with this build do you really need the queen? You might be able to get those roaches out sooner if you skipped the queen.
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I also tried getting more replays but I'm baffled over how terrible the terrans I now face are despite being like 450-550 rating. I guess terran is really easy mode In these 2 games the terran play horribly IMO maybe they are thrown of by the uncommon build and the early pressure? If I could show replays where terrans play better I would its not my fault they are bad like that :S
Now neither of these games shows a bust where I win cause he went banshees or something. But there are some replays in OP showing that potential. But it shows that the opening can handle some plays by T that is not optimal for it. Neither of the games are particularly good IMO and all Ts play badly, and I could certainly play better. But if you watch them with the intent of seeing how the build can be adapted and handle different things I think they are interesting.
If anyone else have replays to add to the thread that would be awesome!
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55346-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
this is against proxy reaper (a 500+ rated terran can you believe that by the way he plays?). He could have killed my whole mineral line if he was any good. But if it wasn't proxy maybe lings and queen would have come out in time. As you see roaches pop in time to save FE from reapers. Then I think my counter attack do more dmg then I did to him and he counter attacks quicker then I thought and I loose FE. Then its a normal game kinda. I do not make early blings here as my eco does not allow it. The game is not standard at all. But looking at timings it might actually be safe from non proxy reaper? Otherwise scout needs to verify reaper or alter build in some way.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55347-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
And another where the T goes 2 barracks with techlabs and masses maruaders and marines. The bust is totally fail, I see he has a bunch of marines and marauders so I make spines and blings + roach for defense and I hold him off fine. This is a 450 rated terran.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55374-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
And a 3rd where I see barrack+tech lab I get scared of reapers so I just go speedlings instantly. Turns out it was a marauder and another rax so a bust wouldn't have been optimal anyway. Or it might have as he had all he depos there. oh well. Shows that its easy to transition depending on scout and get a good eco going. Rest of the game I play horrificly and loose. But this is about the opening so it doesnt matter what happens after 10-15min or so. If I had seen an early factory I would go for the bust. So with a scout at 12 you still have room to change strategy.
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On August 13 2010 04:58 crimsonsentinel wrote:
If rushed banshees aren't a proble with this build do you really need the queen? You might be able to get those roaches out sooner if you skipped the queen.
I feel that you might gain like 5sec doing so. And you will sacrifice econ for slightly earlier roaches, which I do not think its worth. It COULD be worth it but not for a stronger bust but for better defense vs early reapers and stuff. The point is you have roaches fast enough for early banshees they do not have to be faster in this aspect. In that case I would go earlier hatch and earlier pool as well. Since with the original BO you do have enough minerals to get both a queen and roach warren and a few seconds later 2*lings or 2*drones.
Making it earlier is a possibility but it makes it more all inish and not as stable. And if roaches
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I don't mean skip the queens entirely, but build them after the roaches. You don't have the econ to support extra larva if you're building roaches.
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On August 13 2010 05:11 crimsonsentinel wrote:
I don't mean skip the queens entirely, but build them after the roaches. You don't have the econ to support extra larva if you're building roaches.
No but you save the larvae for when you do?
Could be viable. Feel free to experiment!
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I added this page to the wiki to describe this build (hopefuly as we refine it better we can tweak that wiki page:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Baneling/Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran)
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Tried it out once (only got one Terran in 4 games) and got stomped.
The game looked a lot like your second one except he knew how to micro against banelings instead of just sitting there and getting hit. Basically 3 rax marauders, I try to bust and retreat (I lose a little more than him but nothing crazy).
He waits a little, attacks with an ungodly amount of infantry while still having an even econ (because Terran works that way). I had some lings banelings and roaches. On the first push I lose the expand, he expands (I checked the replay) as he pushes again with just more and more marauder/marine (with a siege tank or two at this point).
It's amazing how little we can do before baneling speed, not sure I could have gotten it out in time. Needs more testing but if you see the mass marauder build, start moving fast ... The really dumb part is that during his second push he had a banshee coming out as well at his base so even if I hold it off and keep my expand I get smacked in the face :x.
No clue how Zerg can keep up economically and militarily to a Terran who isn't totally clueless. By the way I was 30 APM over the guy (70-40) and wasn't outmicroed, just never sure what to build or when he will attack.
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On August 13 2010 07:01 Sixes wrote:
Tried it out once (only got one Terran in 4 games) and got stomped.
The game looked a lot like your second one except he knew how to micro against banelings instead of just sitting there and getting hit. Basically 3 rax marauders, I try to bust and retreat (I lose a little more than him but nothing crazy).
He waits a little, attacks with an ungodly amount of infantry while still having an even econ (because Terran works that way). I had some lings banelings and roaches. On the first push I lose the expand, he expands (I checked the replay) as he pushes again with just more and more marauder/marine (with a siege tank or two at this point).
It's amazing how little we can do before baneling speed, not sure I could have gotten it out in time. Needs more testing but if you see the mass marauder build, start moving fast ... The really dumb part is that during his second push he had a banshee coming out as well at his base so even if I hold it off and keep my expand I get smacked in the face :x.
No clue how Zerg can keep up economically and militarily to a Terran who isn't totally clueless. By the way I was 30 APM over the guy (70-40) and wasn't outmicroed, just never sure what to build or when he will attack.
replay? I'm very interested to see fails as well.
Do you think a different BO would matter for you in that game? What could you have done differently?
Yeah the bust does not work against rax builds. If you do scout 2+ rax. You should skip the bust and not waste your army trying a bust that will fail anyway. You are in a slightly worse economical situation compared to making maybe 10lings and 2 crawlers at nat which is a very common opening. But with 5 roaches you have kinda the same ability to defend. Do you really think that that slight eco disadvantage this build gives lost you the game?
I think the best response to marauder marine is ling/bling early game and crawlers. Best play against it I think would be to get 2nd queen asap and get as much lings and banelings as you can.
If the build can work/get tweaked to stand against early aggression from rax's that would be awesome.
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The only real question I have on this build right now is OL on 15 or on 16. I think with 16, you can squeese out an extra drone (by using another ET right before you build that last roach), and have a little better econ.
Also note that it doesnt fail agianst all rax builds, just ones with at least 2 raxes with marauders.
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On August 13 2010 08:38 obsid wrote:
The only real question I have on this build right now is OL on 15 or on 16. I think with 16, you can squeese out an extra drone (by using another ET right before you build that last roach), and have a little better econ.
Also note that it doesnt fail agianst all rax builds, just ones with at least 2 raxes with marauders.
Do you think its an insta fail vs equally skilled opponent. Or is there a way to handle it? Like a transition into speedlings?
I also wonder how much worse the econ is compared to 15hatch 14 pool + 2 spines + 10-16 lings and a few drones lost to helion harass that seems to be common on higher level play. you waste 2 drones on spines, like 5 on lings, and I often see like 2-3 drones die. But at least 7 larvae on defense.
With early roaches maybe you can simply wall off good enough at nat to not risk as many drones to helions and have queen wall of ramp in the event you see helions. theres 5 larvae for roaches and 2 for the lings and 1 for the roach warren. Baneling nest does not have to go down this early if the bust seems like it would do you more harm then good.
But I do not have the greatest sense for the timings and how the eco fares in different situations.
Might have to test that with some BO map or something unless someone here has a good feeling for this and can straight up tell me that I'm like 6 drones behind at 7min or smth,
T was my worst MU before hands down. After starting with this I'm like 7 wins 2 losses (and one of them is for sure not due to the opener). So thats why I keep insisting that it might be valuable.
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I'm going to watch the replays and try the build out in platinum league later today. It seems like me that it would be a better idea to kill the supply depots with the roaches and not the banelings.
I would suggest killing the supply and, granted there are no hellions or marauders, use the banelings to kill either scv's, or marines. If there is a tank, kill it with the roaches, they can take one tank easily.
It just seems that saving the banelings for worker or army destruction seems like a better idea than using them for the depot. While the depot will cripple them if destroyed, the roaches can kill it, and the banelings will definitely do much more damage if saved for something else.
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I'm interested in transitioning into something against multiple raxes, when I tried this earlier today (I messed up the BO a little bit) I busted the wall but by that point he had quite a few rauders/rines and my army got smoked, and I couldn't drone scout (he killed it) or OL scout (too early to risk losing one), and it's difficult to poke up to the ramp with a unit without losing it (all zerglings are used, roaches would give away too much). After my retreat he was able to amass an M&M ball, at which point I lost due to no speed and no hydra/infestor vs his superior unit comp. Any help would be appreciated.
Edit: with that being said I do like this build a lot, I just have only faced one terran opponent out of the ~8 games I've played today.
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Takes quite a while for T to get the ball rolling. I think after a failed bust make enough econ to just balance 1 base out and a little more. Then make crawlers, speedlings and roaches. As much as you can if you think you are going to be attacked. If you hold that attack you have 2 bases and can transition into whatever.
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you attack the depots with banes cause you dont wanna wait for forever for roaches to try and bring down a depot that is getting repaired.
I had another vs a T that bunker rushed.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55538-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
In the fray I kinda forgot to make a baneling nest I also mess timing up a bit. But imagine what 3 banes ( lost a ling  ) could have done to that supp depot and techlab on the factory. Now T didn't repair as he should which was lucky for me. I only manage to kill of one techlab and 2 scvs or something. But it makes us even in workers. I transition to mutas that totally destroys his marauder/tank ball he has going.
Gonna update OP with all replays later and hopefully have some where I get in the lead vs ppl that play decently and when I do not screw up the BO
And had another vs a 3 rax + factory (helions). But that T had like 1k mins in the bank so not great play by him. Even with a lot more stuff I do think we would have been really even despite me again fucking up my macro and getting shit econ for the first 8min in the game. Speedling baneling handled it well
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About the 9OL/ET/etc., there were a ton of tests done during the last phase of beta, and it was found that, unless you want to do something like an 11 Pool, you're always better off with 9OL.
Since you're going for a 13 hatch, 9OL is definitely better.
Also, shouldn't you scout with your very first lings to at least see if his wall-off is bustable?
As far as I can tell, top terrans will defend this easily with a proper wall-in.
However, I think that the interesting part is that you can do the same build with slightly later gas, still build the baneling nest just to keep him on his toes, but then get Lair instead of 4+ banelings. You can then go for a spire, and finally use that baneling nest for marines.
Basically, the question we have to ask is if the resources invested into an early nest will force the terran to waste extra ressources or stay in his base longer, thus giving us the upper hand? Or will it be the extra ressources we need to actually stay alive...?
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Do T expect a bust after he sees the FE and the roach warren? Cause that is all he will see without a scan.
And if he makes a proper wall in that means we can more easily scout his tech. And such a wall off how does it look? Naked prod facilities? thats no fun. Bunkers? they cost.
And in that case we can skip the banes and go lair earlier.
And IF a FE into roach warren becomes "aha its the roach bust" then they wall off so we can see the tech and maybe add some bunker or smth using 100 minerals and maybe get 1 marauder using 100 gas they might not have wanted to use. So that makes the omg how fast can terran get banshees problem a bit better as well as the omg I cant scout terran. If it comes to this and we scout it with OL or a drone we just skip the baneling nest and 5 roaches. And just drone hard and tech lair and make whatever we need to stop that now slightly delayed cliff drop.
But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Whats interesting is if the build could even come to that point where it is feared like this. Is it good enough, does it threaten fast tech builds enough to force this kind of wall off response in terran. Can you adapt well enough to respond to rax builds etc.
Try it out and post your experience with replays!
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On August 13 2010 05:33 obsid wrote:
I added this page to the wiki to describe this build (hopefuly as we refine it better we can tweak that wiki page:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Baneling/Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran)
btw I think thats a great short summary of what I tried to say in this thread.
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As to my game, it is really quite similar to yours except I left the spine crawlers til too late and they got killed.
Now I need to recheck the replay but I believe I could get a lair and speed while poking at the front door. I check the wall in with an overlord as the roaches are running down. I get to see what the wall is and what's right behind it. If he sends out marines the roaches get free kills.
If there are too many marauder/marine you know there are multiple barracks and you can add a few spine crawlers back at home and get ready to spam out lings and get baneling speed. Baneling speed is essential in crashing them into a well microed marine ball and I think it's what I really lacked in that game.
I definitely didn't lose because of the opener but just due to a lack of experience with the follow up to it (well, first game with it lol).
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It looks like a pretty interesting build but going hatch first means you get a free advantage and flipping that into an attack is how you lose an advantage. You are banking on your opponent being lax on defense and this is what you call a cheesy style. Hatch first isn't standard for a reason and if I do get it off unscathed, I want to go into a macro game because you can put more into early defense.
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On August 13 2010 11:20 Izzachar wrote:
Do T expect a bust after he sees the FE and the roach warren? Cause that is all he will see without a scan.
And if he makes a proper wall in that means we can more easily scout his tech. And such a wall off how does it look? Naked prod facilities? thats no fun. Bunkers? they cost. He will see the early gas and late pool with his scouting SCV.
As for the wall, well that seems to be a fine art, but depending on the angle of the ramp, they might not have to expose anything juicy. AFAIK though, good terran players always make their wall bust-proof when they see early gas, be it with bunkers, extra depots or rax.
Aside from that, good post, I'm curious to see some more replays against good terrans and different forms of harass.
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So it's a later baneling bust with no ling and a few roaches instead.
How is this better than a properly timed earlier baneling bust? There will be more units waiting and more than likely enough rauders to take care of your roaches...
This build also does not strike me as any less all in. In the end if this fails you still spent all your gas elsewhere and have no expo reasonably populated.
Finally, 14 hatch against T? Bunker rush all day long.
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@zomgzergrush
its not a latter baneling bust, it actualy occurs at about the same time (maybe a few seconds sooner even). Because you dont have to wait for speed to finish, nor are you putting gas into speed before the baneling nest. You also get more drones then a normal baneling bust, as well as spending less larva (as each roach is more attacking force per larva then lings are).
Yes your best bet it to get a lot of marauders, but we are talking more then 1 rax with a tech lab (you wont have enuogh when it hits if thats all you got). 2 rax with techlabs will stop this bust, but if I see that many marauders, I'm not going to bust, just pull back, drone up, and get speed lings, while i wait for muta.
And who said anything about a 14 hatch? This is a 13 hatch with an immedate roach warren. Bunker rush me all you like, but when i have 5 roaches and a queen on that bunker, its going to die, I have played this build against diamond players that bunker rushed me on steps of war (can you get any more advantages of a bunker rush?), and still killed all the bunkers and the marines and saved my hatch, losing 1-2 roaches and having a queen thats a bit hurt (but not dead). The counter attack can be brutal.
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I like the idea - I've played around with different baneling-bust timings to make it less all-in-ish.
But here's the issue - If they wall with rax/fact/port instead of depots, or if they build a well-positioned bunker, the baneling bust will not work at all. Ultimately, the issue is this - if the Terran does a solid wall, it completely negates any effect this timing push may have. Roaches and banelings won't give you the map control that speedlings would, and if the slow roaches are at the terran base, they can't help you defend against reaper/hellion harass.
Don't get me wrong - I like the innovation. But all I'm saying is it's still quite all-in-esque, don't fool yourself into thinking it can be standard play.
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13 hatch 14 extractor 13 pool? You die so hard to a rush, it's not even close
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Up until now the discussion was productive, civic, backed up with replays where possible and constructive on all fronts. Here is presented a build that is sophisticated on the timings, differs from our usual builds, leaves us with a natural expo, allows to put pressure up in a lot of cases and is still strong on potential econ and flexibility.
General statements like the ones above do not contribute in any way to this discussion. We do not execute such tactics against an omnipotent, omniscient entity. The scenario of two perfect players with perfect knowledge is not what this game is about. It is the gradient of skill, knowledge and perception that allows this game to be dynamic. Otherwise it would just be a sophisticated "Connect 4".
So please review stratagems like this in the dimension of reality and actual in-game-experience, and not in an error-free theoretical space.
On topic:
In my experience, I'm able to get my push to the enemy's base between minute 6:00 (Steppes of War) and minute 6:45 (Desert Oasis). The limiting factor here are always the roaches. I've experimented with the building order at 15 supply between
A) Queen->Roach Warren->Zerglings
and
B) Roach Warren -> Queen -> Zerglings.
It didn't make much difference. In case B I could start with roaches a little earlier, but had to wait for enough minerals to build the 4th and 5th so that the result was not much different fom A.
So obviously the efficiency of the push varies with rush distance.
I realized that the zerglings are at their destination quite some time before you can morp them into banelings. I'd like to try to create one more drone instead of a zergling pair and put instead put that pair into line with Roaches. With the difference with Ling- and Roachspeed, perhaps the time is sufficient to have 4 banelings when the roaches arrive.
In case that doesn't work, use the zerglings to spot for any proxy-action before sending them to their destination.
I've practiced this build a bit against hard AI to gauge the effectiveness of follow-up and transitions. I built an overlord at 28 (obviously) to follow up with a queen and at least to vomits worth of drones. That would up the drone count from 14 to something like 22 to 28, depending on how successful your push was. I then went lair, took 3 more gas and went muta/ling which was really fluid. It gives us the possibility to prevent any form of drops, is a good counter against the counter terran is most likely to build to our push and can be easily bolstered with some banelings if T decides to stay Marine-heavy. Naturally the follow up has to be tested against human players, but from a mechanical point of view the follow ups really seem to fall in place very easy.
I can supply a replay of the transition mentioned above, but am at work right now. It can be easily replicated however.
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I just tried this build vs. a player who had never played a single game on SC2 before. I messed up a bit on the timing because it was my first run
it failed horribly. The banes did their job sure, but the guy (who again had never played SC2 before then) had time enough for a bunker, 3 marauders, and 2 marines, with another marauder coming out. His sim city was confusing enough for my roaches so that they lost to this army. While I had 4 roaches as reinforcements, it just felt extremely underwhelming compared to the typical baneling bust.
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On August 13 2010 12:25 zomgzergrush wrote:
So it's a later baneling bust with no ling and a few roaches instead.
How is this better than a properly timed earlier baneling bust? There will be more units waiting and more than likely enough rauders to take care of your roaches...
This build also does not strike me as any less all in. In the end if this fails you still spent all your gas elsewhere and have no expo reasonably populated.
Finally, 14 hatch against T? Bunker rush all day long.
I gotten bunker rushed 2 times and I have fended it off easily both times. As been said in the thread several times now compared to the normal baneling bust its not an all in and with scout you can easily adapt into 13 hatch, 14 pool, lingspeed make lings, queens, drones no problem at all (but getting roaches is by far the best choice if you do get bunker rushed as they crush it)
But here's the issue - If they wall with rax/fact/port instead of depots, or if they build a well-positioned bunker, the baneling bust will not work at all. Ultimately, the issue is this - if the Terran does a solid wall, it completely negates any effect this timing push may have. Roaches and banelings won't give you the map control that speedlings would, and if the slow roaches are at the terran base, they can't help you defend against reaper/hellion harass.
Don't get me wrong - I like the innovation. But all I'm saying is it's still quite all-in-esque, don't fool yourself into thinking it can be standard play.
Thats not an issue. Then you know he went 1/1/1 or whatever and not 4 rax and you now that teching lair and prepare for a drop is what you wanna do asap. This helps with the problem that many Z express with the T MU; that they cannot scout what kind of harass T is doing this time or if he is 4 raxing a one base attack
13 hatch 14 extractor 13 pool? You die so hard to a rush, it's not even close
I never lost to a rush -ever- you can scout at 9 with this build (and delay it a little bit) and adapt accordingly. And even in the cases where I didnt scout and went, 13 hatch, 14 ext, 13pool roach warren and got 11 rax proxy reaper I got out defenses in time to take the lead. And the two bunker rushes I faced as I said that this BO handles easily. You just let the rines get the FE hatch to 50% hp while you wait for your 5 roaches.
BTW terran can't rush Z without going all-insh. So just scout
I just tried this build vs. a player who had never played a single game on SC2 before. I messed up a bit on the timing because it was my first run
it failed horribly. The banes did their job sure, but the guy (who again had never played SC2 before then) had time enough for a bunker, 3 marauders, and 2 marines, with another marauder coming out. His sim city was confusing enough for my roaches so that they lost to this army. While I had 4 roaches as reinforcements, it just felt extremely underwhelming compared to the typical baneling bust
Underwhelming compared to a typical banelings bust? What league are you in? A typical baneling bust is underwhelming in the way that it almost always fails at high level and when it does you can GG cause there is NO comeback.
before anyone else makes any theoretical or half assed attempts at this BO. Check all replays posted in this thread they show how it handles lots of things. Even if they play after the opener isn't optimal by either player
And do I have to say this again. If your scout gives you intel of 2+ rax YOU DO NOT BUST, you do not make roaches! You go lingspeed+banelings nest instead and macro up and make defense. I will provide rep of this later cause I have one just like that
You might even think of the opener this way. roach warren, baneling nest isn't standard. You only do get these if scouting shows that you should. If you suspect higher tech play like drop, banshees you go for it and punish T for doing it. And if he does wall of with the buildings you know exactly what he is doing and can react properly- him teching always means more queens and lair - him raxing stay on T1 banelings and lings
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It's a very precise timing and requires you to be able to scout. The nice thing about the timing is once you have built the roaches you can scout with overlord (I have an overlord making as the roaches move over and could make a second if needed so saccing an overlord here is possible).
If you see 3 marines and a hellion or something and the tech going up, bust him (usually these tech builds need addons and have precise timings so he can't just have bought a ton of extra stuff). Your opponent scouted the hatch and maybe the roach warren so might not be too worried about his wall-in.
The nice thing is that if you do see marine/marauder you are already getting speed and/or a lair as well as a bunch of drones but you have your expand creep, some roaches so soak up hits, some banelings and lings.
To the people testing:
What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)? It could save us the banelings and a roach or two and the overlord may get out alive (because the marines can't run out of the base to chase it, hell against a poor player it could open the base for us). If we have an extra overlord that's fine because we are going to spam a ton of drones right away anyways.
If the front is not bustable for any reason (marauders, rax-factory wall) we at least have enough information to choose speedling or lair (or more roaches if mass marine). While being defended by 5 roaches and 4 banelings as well as a few spine crawlers (if we feel we need them). We can keep pumping drones for at least a little bit (marauder pushes come later and we have a fair bit of defense.
I just think it is a great time to sac an overlord (because starport would be up for any fast starport play, the wall can be checked, addons can be checked).
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On August 13 2010 22:13 Sixes wrote:
To the people testing:
What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)? It could save us the banelings and a roach or two and the overlord may get out alive (because the marines can't run out of the base to chase it, hell against a poor player it could open the base for us). If we have an extra overlord that's fine because we are going to spam a ton of drones right away anyways.
If the front is not bustable for any reason (marauders, rax-factory wall) we at least have enough information to choose speedling or lair (or more roaches if mass marine). While being defended by 5 roaches and 4 banelings as well as a few spine crawlers (if we feel we need them). We can keep pumping drones for at least a little bit (marauder pushes come later and we have a fair bit of defense.
I just think it is a great time to sac an overlord (because starport would be up for any fast starport play, the wall can be checked, addons can be checked).
Based on my sandbox experience so far, that would be an excellent time to move in an overlord that you have already positioned in proximity of his base. Although I wouldn't move it in from the front, but sideways so you can draw his attention away from his choke, perhaps earning you one or two unattended seconds. If you plan on retreating your Roaches, don't let the Terran see them. They will just invite aggression, and your chances of bringing them back to safety really dwindle.
Pumping drones at this point is absolutely necessary if you can't swing the game hugely in your favor by destroying his tech or production facilities or put a real dent in his SCV-count. You are sitting at 14 drones, which is really not enough at this point. However, as we have two hatches we can jump-start our economy from there. I found reinforcing with further Roaches not really optimal, because they are so terribly slow. They arrive at the front when the action is pretty much over; generally speaking.
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I was only talking about further roaches for defense of a pure marine push. Those 5 roaches are all you need for awhile.
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What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)?
I think this is a great idea. In particular if the timing works in the way that you can get a OL at 28 and drone pump before loosing that scouting OL and busting in. A possible desperation counter attack will not happen before another larvae cycle and then you have good defenses up again as long as the bust wasn't a total throw away into nothing. But with proper feeling, scouting and micro it shouldn't be a waste.
Although I wouldn't move it in from the front, but sideways so you can draw his attention away from his choke, perhaps earning you one or two unattended seconds.
And I totally agree. If that makes the wall even just slightly easier to break thats awesome
I will try and do this myself. The BO I find is really demanding though. There are so much things that need to click and get well timed, so I will probably forget and screw this up several times =) I can barely make the original BO flow well as it is into a transition. I pretty much make some mistake every game that slow me down 10-20sec or something but still it tends to work out great for me
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I'm still really wondering about the timing of the actual baneling bust, though. If the terran walls properly you won't have enough to break the wall and the rauders will just outrange your roaches.
My baneling bust follows DiMaga's I believe, 13p 12g, speed, baneling. Sometimes I go baneling before speed and do a slowling break for really really early breaks. I'm pretty sure this is much faster than hatching first. 6minute break seems very late to me, IIRC a normal baneling bust is a minute faster.
Also, vs bunker rushes, were they just not repairing? Roach ROF is so damn slow that bunkers just jump right to full hp.
I feel like this build is dependent on T feeling comfortable from blings by seeing an extra hatch?
Finally, how can you not be screwed if the wall is un-bustable? your tech is behind, drone count is low, and the roach's days are numbered once the T sees em and starts making a handful of rauders. If you pump drones AFTER you notice the wall is unbreakable, the T has been powering along as normal. The only way I can see you getting out of it is if the T throws his army at you early and loses it.
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This wouldn't work well against aggressive players. 2 gate or fast reaper will destroy this build.
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On August 14 2010 02:51 asianinvasian wrote:
This wouldn't work well against aggressive players. 2 gate or fast reaper will destroy this build.
it is fairly obvious if they are cheesing reaper...at which point you simply ditch the hatch and defend with your queen...theres no reason Z shoudl ever lose to FAST reaper....
this isnt a vP build, either....
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I tried a build similar to this recently, FE'ing and getting roaches and banelings asap. I ended up winning but only because the terran saw my banelings outside his base with a couple of hellion (which I killed eventually with roaches) and sat in his base, making 2 bunkers behind his wallin, allowing me time to macro up and tech to burrow and roach speed.
He ends up finally pushing out with rines/tanks but I burrow ambush his tanks and sandwich him with roaches.
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33725
I was very vulnerable early on, and probably a little better than my opponent to make this work. I just freestyled the whole thing, so not sure if I was close to your build order, but I thought I'd link the replay because it involves early baneling/roach with a FE.
Like I said before, I think the primary benefit to this build is its value as a "feint", as it looks like you are being really aggressive but really you just want to make drones. I would hesitate to call it a "Baneling Bust 2.0", as its almost never going to bust/win right away. The other value is it is nice to have both a baneling nest and a roach warren up, which you can capitalize on later when you have a better economy.
One other thing that could be useful with this build is if you show roaches, and hide your banelings, T might move out with just marines. With your roaches as forward scouts, you might be able to hide banelings behind concealing terrain and take out a ton of marines (10 - 16ish maybe if tightly packed) with very few banelings if you micro properly.
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I'm still not completely convinced...5 minutes is a bit late and a terran could have a double rax or rax/fac wall by that point which would make the bust completely worthless.
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Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
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On August 14 2010 06:05 Gyro wrote:
Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
Those were my thoughts. Properly timed (i.e. with the first marines immediately after scouting that hatch) with followup repairs of a few SCV/mule or even a maurader added to the bunker, that bunker shouldn't die before doing terrible, terrible, damage.
From a T perspective, I'd have no problem committing more scvs to repair that bunker considering how much damage it will do. Mules will skyrocket the T mineral income just fine early on.
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if you see a bunker with marines behind the wall in (it does happen), just bust the depo with the banelings and run by the bunker, go and for the scvs. Roaches dont take a lot of damage from marines (although raoches DPS isnt great), he can come out and fight you, or he can lose scvs, eather way you win.
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Finally, how can you not be screwed if the wall is un-bustable? your tech is behind, drone count is low, and the roach's days are numbered once the T sees em and starts making a handful of rauders. If you pump drones AFTER you notice the wall is unbreakable, the T has been powering along as normal. The only way I can see you getting out of it is if the T throws his army at you early and loses it.
Replay?
Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
Replay?
Kill SCVs at bunker first? And done right you do have banelings for backup to at least save the FE. No bust but the T just committed 150 (marine) 100 (bunker) 100 (2 workers) 350minerals on that bunker rush. I do not see how roaches alone wouldn't handle that. And the question is what defense does T manage to scramble up in his base before you get there? So a replay please.
I also think marines + marauder wont get there in time. Maybe 1 marine and 1 marauder. But not 4 marines and 1 marauders as you make it sound.
I'm still not completely convinced...5 minutes is a bit late and a terran could have a double rax or rax/fac wall by that point which would make the bust completely worthless.
In which case you skip banes, use roaches for defense, or skip roaches and just get speedlings and continue playing as normal. You will see how the wall off will turn out long before its even up looking at the first buildings.
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On August 14 2010 03:19 Johnny_Vegas wrote:I tried a build similar to this recently, FE'ing and getting roaches and banelings asap. I ended up winning but only because the terran saw my banelings outside his base with a couple of hellion (which I killed eventually with roaches) and sat in his base, making 2 bunkers behind his wallin, allowing me time to macro up and tech to burrow and roach speed. He ends up finally pushing out with rines/tanks but I burrow ambush his tanks and sandwich him with roaches. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33725I was very vulnerable early on, and probably a little better than my opponent to make this work. I just freestyled the whole thing, so not sure if I was close to your build order, but I thought I'd link the replay because it involves early baneling/roach with a FE. Like I said before, I think the primary benefit to this build is its value as a "feint", as it looks like you are being really aggressive but really you just want to make drones. I would hesitate to call it a "Baneling Bust 2.0", as its almost never going to bust/win right away. The other value is it is nice to have both a baneling nest and a roach warren up, which you can capitalize on later when you have a better economy. One other thing that could be useful with this build is if you show roaches, and hide your banelings, T might move out with just marines. With your roaches as forward scouts, you might be able to hide banelings behind concealing terrain and take out a ton of marines (10 - 16ish maybe if tightly packed) with very few banelings if you micro properly.
You build is nothing like the one I proposed.
You go one base. At 4minutes you have 9drones total and only 6 mining minerals! You build 8 zerglings very early that you use for nothing screwing you eco up totally.
At 5:18 5 roaches in my BO would be ready, FE would be ready, and you would have 4 lings and 15 drones. You have 14 drones and 8lings at 5:18 and by then your roach warren is only half way done.
The bust would happen at ~6min look at your replay what does terran have then? 6 marines, 2 supply depot/bunker wall off. And a techlab building on the factory. You would have steam rolled him with the BO i proposed. In this particular replay the bust I propose would be a GG easily (but plz note that is not the intention of it). Your bust is ready at like 8min. Plenty of time for terran to wall in properly in response to scouting you and he also gets 2 siege tanks...
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I have been doing something similar , I dont have a build order past 14 pool:
13 extractor
14 pool
speed as its done
queen
2-6 lings~
get expo
power drone
go up to 30 pop~
check what terran is up to - don't see many defenses or see tech, throw baneling nest(usually on expansion less likely to get scanned) and win.
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What your talking about is a standard baneling bust, but you got a lot more drones instead. Sometimes it works, but its a totaly diffrent build to not get roaches, or a really fast expo.
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to elaborate on my mentioning of the bunker, i'm referring to a proxy bunker outside your hatch, not behind his wall when you're trying to bust.
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On August 14 2010 09:09 zomgzergrush wrote:
to elaborate on my mentioning of the bunker, i'm referring to a proxy bunker outside your hatch, not behind his wall when you're trying to bust.
I know it was misunderstood. But I knew what you were talking about. I'm still not convinced this is a problem. what is the optimal number of forces T can have in those bunkers at 5:15? Add to that, that there is 3-4 lings moving towards Ts base straight past bunkers at like 4min able to intercept any reinforcements easily taking down a lone marauder or a lone marine. It might loose you 1 or 2 lings and a few roaches but then you have the FE secured.
Added a new replay of a T going for fast thor and starport that is pretty interesting I think.
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What your talking about is a standard baneling bust, but you got a lot more drones instead. Sometimes it works, but its a totaly diffrent build to not get roaches, or a really fast expo.
I looked at one replay and basically exactly what i thought was going to happen - happened.
Which is: Early hatch - but you're making roaches early - so you don't have money for the larva anyhow , and you haven't even hit 16 drones on minerals on your main , so why do you early exp?
Honestly the build I suggest has a lot less waste and serves the same purpose and can be done much snappier - you can mass enough lings while nest is being built.
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Upon further analysis the fast hatch you made granted you a total of 3 larva (you had 1 to spare on main so it was more like 2).
This is kinda like terrans building 8 rax for the income of 1 base you can't sustain it.
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On August 14 2010 09:34 gustavo wrote:
Upon further analysis the fast hatch you made granted you a total of 3 larva (you had 1 to spare on main so it was more like 2).
This is kinda like terrans building 8 rax for the income of 1 base you can't sustain it.
watch more replays you are wrong. even if my timings are off. You can get 5 roaches when roach warren pops given good timings. The 6th larvae i used for an OL moments later (even if I do forget it at times thats the intention)
And you deal with thor drop on cliff / fast banshees how?
Cause thats the whole point of the BO. You present a build that is better economic but you present no way of doing what this BO intends to do.
Honestly the build I suggest has a lot less waste and serves the same purpose and can be done much snappier - you can mass enough lings while nest is being built.
No your bust is way later. Your expo would pop around 6min. And you cannot macro drones and get enough lings at the same time. At 5:15 which is when the roaches pop you could at max squeeze in 18 lings. Make 5 of those into banelings for a bust and you have 13 lings left to do damage with. But in this case you are at 15 drones as well! So the only difference is that I have an earlier expo and 5 roaches compared to your 13 speedlings. But I also have roach warren already! And I have more larvae to later turn into drones so my eco will kick start much faster then yours.
If you wanna argue against this please provide a replay where you have equal busting potential at 6min with the same amount of drones and similar tech. Much later then 6min and siegetanks are sieging and banshees are rolling
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I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
Your 2nd hatchery is sitting at 3 larva and you have 11 WORKERS MINING + 3 on gas.
11 workers is not enough to sustain ZERGLING from 1 base, nevermind making a roach warren and roaches, my suggestion to you is delaying that exp would let you have a lot stronger economy by simply making more drones instead of wasting a fuckton of larva from doing 13 hatch(you're wasting the larva from your main since you have to wait to collect 300 minerals) , so honestly the fast hatch is actually REDUCING the amount of larva you have.
I dont have a "baneling 2.0" build , my build usually only goes up to 15 queen then I try to adapt to what I see (and end up failing miserably hehe) , unless its a map like blistering sands then I have a roachling build that I copied from dimaga(pro).
13 ext
14 pool
15 queen/ol/ 2-6 lings
ling speed + get exp
power drone to 25-30~ pop
take a look at terrans base - teching/no defenses
throw baneling nest - spam zergling from 2 bases , cool thing about this "build" is zerglings are freaking fast , so you can keep flooding them in.
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On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
Your 2nd hatchery is sitting at 3 larva and you have 11 WORKERS MINING + 3 on gas.
11 workers is not enough to sustain ZERGLING from 1 base, nevermind making a roach warren and roaches, my suggestion to you is delaying that exp would let you have a lot stronger economy by simply making more drones instead of wasting a fuckton of larva from doing 13 hatch(you're wasting the larva from your main since you have to wait to collect 300 minerals) , so honestly the fast hatch is actually REDUCING the amount of larva you have.
I dont have a "baneling 2.0" build , my build usually only goes up to 15 queen then I try to adapt to what I see (and end up failing miserably hehe) , unless its a map like blistering sands then I have a roachling build that I copied from dimaga(pro).
13 ext
14 pool
15 queen/ol/ 2-6 lings
ling speed + get exp
power drone to 25-30~ pop
take a look at terrans base - teching/no defenses
throw baneling nest - spam zergling from 2 bases , cool thing about this "build" is zerglings are freaking fast , so you can keep flooding them in.
The bust is still to late to punish teching. His thor will already be pounding your FE by then or there will be siege tanks in Ts base obliterating your banelings before they reach the wall. My bust happens before a siege tank can get out with siege. But if you have replays to prove otherwise feel free to submit them!
If I delay the hatch I will delay the bust and then its redundant cause the the whole point of the BO is being able to bust even if the BO in itself is inferior to other builds looking at it strictly economic. But IF you scout smth like 2-3 rax there is nothing stopping you from just powering drones of hatch+queen+hatch as much as you want and in that case this BO is still more economic then yours. Yours is however more fool proof against smth like early reapers.
And there are no larvae wasted until the very end of this BO from the FE hatch I believe there is 1-2 larvae that gets unused. Well I guess ure right then kinda. Gonna look into that cause maybe I can put down pool 13 and hatch 14 instead. There are no larvae wasted when making the early hatch or the pool if done right. That I waste larvae cause I'm busy looking at my scout has nothing to do with the BO being unoptimized but only with me being a cruddy player
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No the thor wont be out, I BARELY(hehe) beat a 600+ diamond terran player on LT doing this and he went for banshees which I think come out before thor + medivac (correct me plz if I'm wrong).
I simply cannot understand how you still insist your build order isnt extremely wasteful and risky, its not a matter of how you press your keys I just went and looked at the replay again for the fourth time , you do a pretty decent job at keeping money low, its just MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to make THOSE UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND NOT WASTE PRETTY MUCH ALL YOUR EXPANSION LARVA.
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On August 14 2010 10:48 gustavo wrote:
No the thor wont be out, I BARELY(hehe) beat a 600+ diamond terran player on LT doing this and he went for banshees which I think come out before thor + medivac (correct me plz if I'm wrong).
I simply cannot understand how you still insist your build order isnt extremely wasteful and risky, its not a matter of how you press your keys I just went and looked at the replay again for the fourth time , you do a pretty decent job at keeping money low, its just MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to make THOSE UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND NOT WASTE PRETTY MUCH ALL YOUR EXPANSION LARVA.
I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. What the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
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I played a few ladder games today, I'm around 200-300 diamond range. I played 3 terrans, and two of them went 2 rax builds, the last one went 1-1-1.
My bust was successful for the 1-1-1, he had no defenses (except for banshees that popped out after I mangled his econ).
Then, one of the 2 raxes went mostly marine and was adding tanks. I busted just before his tank popped out and I sniped the tank with my roaches.
The last 2 rax was a problem though, as he went heavy marauder/marine (2tech/1reactor), even without scanning me, and he just wiped me clean (my 4 spines came up in time on Xel Naga Caverns, but it wasn't enough, even with speedlings/banelings/queens). I would have attempted to scout it, but I feel there is no leniency for scouting in this build because it either forces me to show my hand or sac an overlord that I preciously need for a good bust.
I'm not sure how to adapt this build if I see a 2 rax with marauders. I dunno, I feel that I see a lot of 2/3rax plays, so it's hard to attempt this build unless I get lucky against a 1-1-1.
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@crisis
I feel you have a good understanding of this build. It does very very well agaisnt the 1-1-1 style, and is usualy an insta win (or kills there eco and wins shortly after).
The 3 rax (2 with techlabs), which I would say is the best counter agaisnt this build. Did you attempt the bust and lose the roaches? I know you dont have a lot of scouting info, but sacing an overlord (after you make the last roach and are getting ready to move in), can be well worth it to see this build coming. If you dont bust, and just pull back get speedligns and drone up and then get lair, I think you can handle a pure rax play fairly easy. The key is not to bust, or if you do, and see a lot of marauders, run away fast before you lose too many roaches. roaches alone die to marauders very very fast, with speedligns and roaches though, you should be ok.
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You should try and keep the scouting drone alive long enough to see dual gas or what his next building is. One way of doing that is to gas steal him when his marine comes out and then cancel it and scout again running in circles trying to avoid the marine.
If that fails you have a very narrow window of trying to poke with lings at ramp or OL to determine if you should build your roaches, both of which is a bit risky for the build I think as loosing lings or OL is pretty detrimental at that point.
How did that 2rax game go? Did you bust anyway? Or did you pull back to defend? Can we have the replay?
Edit: Obsid beat me to it. I'm still interested to see the replay. If the build is a no go vs a well hidden mass rax even with pulling back your bust units I would have to reconsider it somehow
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Ah, I just rewatched the replay and it was actually a 3 rax. I think I messed up on the timings a little (I droned up a little too much), but I don't think it would have made a difference anyway. Also I should have put spines up before producing zerglings, I think. I'm not sure how many spines is a good amount vs a 3 rax (it certainly isn't 4).
I think I got really overconfident when I saw the techlab and depots. I hoped to blow up a depot and a tech lab in one go, and push in and win, but then I saw the massive amount of marauders, and I sort of panicked and didn't pull back, haha.
Here's the replay since you requested it:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56505-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Do you think I could've won if I fended the attack off?
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I'm tempted vr a 3 rax (2 tech lab) build to not "bust him" but maybe just destroy the depo at the front if i can (with the banelings), not move in the roaches. I think the suply block it probably gives might give you more time for lings, what do you think?
Also most terrans i know that see banelings that just destroyed thier front suply depo, rebuild it and 1 more and a bunker to be safer against a baneling bust. That would really slow down the terran. Maybe thats just mistakes/the meta game right now though.
Edit, after looking at the replay, you were a little slow on the build (your bust happened at 7mni game time which is about 30 sec slower then it should be, I think this is because you got too many drones, and then had to wait for an extra overlord before you could get enough roaches, I did this many times by accident when I first tried this build). In the end though you were 3 workers behind the terran (+mules), so if you held the attack you should have been ok. I think even in your game where you lost all the roaches, if you hadnt blocked your zergligns by accident, or had brought down your other queen to transfuse the spines you would have been fine. Also notice that losing that 1 suply depo, meant that he was supply capped the whole way up to attack you (untill he lost units in the attack), so he had 0 reinforcements coming.
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Actually, I think when they see banelings destroy their depot and deflect the attack as they come up (3 rax), they just overreact and make a bee-line straight to your base.
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On August 15 2010 03:03 Crisis_ wrote:Ah, I just rewatched the replay and it was actually a 3 rax. I think I messed up on the timings a little (I droned up a little too much), but I don't think it would have made a difference anyway. Also I should have put spines up before producing zerglings, I think. I'm not sure how many spines is a good amount vs a 3 rax (it certainly isn't 4). I think I got really overconfident when I saw the techlab and depots. I hoped to blow up a depot and a tech lab in one go, and push in and win, but then I saw the massive amount of marauders, and I sort of panicked and didn't pull back, haha. Here's the replay since you requested it: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56505-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsDo you think I could've won if I fended the attack off?
You saw the 2nd rax with your drone scout which means its not a super fast tech build. So its not a problem to delay any possible bust.
I would poke with overlords as best I could after I seen that 2nd rax with drone scout and I would poke the ramp. In this case it is worth loosing an OL to know what he is doing. Cause you know he can't go very fast tech so the delay in the bust loosing this OL would mean isn't a problem. Should you see a factory starport at this point and 2 rax with just a few marines then make a bigger later bust but I think banes+lings is a better choice here as you should have no built roach warren OR get lair and play "normal"
Poking at the ramp would have given you vision of a techlab at the first rax. Which means either reapers but in this case most probably marauders. And I do not think most Ts swap that rax for say a starport with lab at their front as that simply gives their strat away. And if hen did you could just respond with lair + queens. So in this case I would assume rax play and adapt to that.
I think that if you suspect rax builds then you should not make the roach warren. Instead drone a little more get ling speed then go all out zergling and baneling. I really like +1 melee as well. 1-2 crawlers at natural to help against helions. Then its pretty much a standard ZvT bio game. Get banelings speed, infestors etc. etc. With this delayed tech I think a hydra den, infestor or spire should be down at this point able to handle most sneaky tactics.
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Hi all!
I am a novice SC2 gamer and I tried the Baneling Bust 2.0 vs my little brother, but it didn't work out for me. I got the feeling I was to slow in following the BO, and in the replay i saw, i could have been some seconds faster. I also kinda screwed up the build at the last stage, as I built an Ovi with the roaches instead of building all the 5 roaches at once and then the Ovi, but I don't know whether this was the issue that led to my failure. The map was scrap station and it took a long time for my roaches to arrive at the terran's base (1 minute at normal/replay time, should be around 40 secs in fast). My brother managed to rally 5 rines, 1 rauder at 6:45 and i think they would have been a problem for my force. Nearly one minute later he had 2 additional hellions and 1 banshee, when I attacked and broke in (which didn't win the game anyway..). Please give me some hints where I can improve, I fear I've overlooked something important..
EDIT:
Other mistakes I made were:
I accidentally sent 4 Drones to gas instead of 3, and I forgot 1 roach at the base (didn't set waypoint at this time), so that I attacked with 7 Roaches.
At the end I mistakenly bred a 2nd Queen instead of an Overlord at my main base and send her to the expansion, right when the Banshee attacked, as I thought one Queen should be enough to deal with it and I wanted to secure the expansion. I was surprised to see my Queen die vs one Banshee..
Perhaps after Banshees arrive, you should put additional Queens to each expansion, trying to have at least slightly more than potential banshee count (they take about a minute), at least before the queens have enough energy to heal themselves. This would be an extremely defensive style, and wouldn't take many ressources for other actions, at least for some few minutes.
I updated the link to the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/57369-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
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On August 16 2010 05:23 mjamz wrote:Hi all! I am a novice SC2 gamer and I tried the Baneling Bust 2.0 vs my little brother, but it didn't work out for me. I got the feeling I was to slow in following the BO, and in the replay i saw, i could have been some seconds faster. I also kinda screwed up the build at the last stage, as I built an Ovi with the roaches instead of building all the 5 roaches at once and then the Ovi, but I don't know whether this was the issue that led to my failure. The map was scrap station and it took a long time for my roaches to arrive at the terran's base (1 minute at normal/replay time, should be around 40 secs in fast). My brother managed to rally 5 rines, 1 rauder at 6:45 and i think they would have been a problem for my force. Nearly one minute later he had 2 additional hellions and 1 banshee, when I attacked and broke in (which didn't win the game anyway..). Please give me some hints where I can improve, I fear I overlooked something important.. Replay: http://www.filesavr.com/ad3pN4Ng
What is this? I get some jpg file to download. I'm not opening that. Is this spam/virus? Or have you just failed uploading badly?
This is you first post so I'm very skeptical about this.
Please use the host I provided in OP.
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On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
I checked this too. It is possible to delay the expansion a bit, which would get you some seconds more. The BO was:
15 pool
16 extr (earlier if you want to morph to banelings earlier)
17 hatch
16 queen
18 warren
17 nest
16 2 pairs of zerglings (may be spawned before nest: 17 zerglings, 18 nest)
18 Ovi
Roach Warren finishes about the same time Ovi finishes
I don't know if it would break the idea of the original build, but if you expand after producing your roaches, then you may save perhaps about half a minute for your units, compared to the original build.
But the original build has an advantage: the early expansion may get the queen use her larvae: If you position your expansion near at the enemy, you could save some time with the roaches if you spawn them there. This depends on the map, but it could save you up to half a minute if you would place half way to the enemy (e.g. on scrap station).
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On August 16 2010 14:26 mjamz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH. I checked this too. It is possible to delay the expansion a bit, which would get you some seconds more. The BO was: 15 pool 16 extr (earlier if you want to morph to banelings earlier) 17 hatch 16 queen 18 warren 17 nest 16 2 pairs of zerglings (may be spawned before nest: 17 zerglings, 18 nest) 18 Ovi Roach Warren finishes about the same time Ovi finishes I don't know if it would break the idea of the original build, but if you expand after producing your roaches, then you may save perhaps about half a minute for your units, compared to the original build. But the original build has an advantage: the early expansion may get the queen use her larvae: If you position your expansion near at the enemy, you could save some time with the roaches if you spawn them there. This depends on the map, but it could save you up to half a minute if you would place half way to the enemy (e.g. on scrap station).
I like the BO you typed there and will try it but I do not like placing hatch anywhere else. The bust needs to be at like 6-7min or it will not work. I think the timing cannot be much later then its in my BO or it will fail. I suspect the build you linked will be to late but you never know so Im gonna try it anyway. My original BO its almost the exact same build as dimagas where he goes 4 lings->speed or so 5 roaches and then adds units as it goes. The difference is its delayed a bit (20sec) but you got another hatch. Same eco though. And it has the option to play as a early hatch eco build if you instead of roaches simply go drones. The one base play by dimaga while earlier aggression is not as easy to adapt if you decide to go 2 base eco build as that 2nd hatch will be delayed a bit. But 14 pool 14 gas speedligns into expand is also a common build and it would surely work as a variation on that.
I also watched the replay. You delayed the bust almost 1 minute due to waiting for more roaches and messing up the BO. You cannot do this. You must bust as early as the build allows its already very close as it is regarding timings. delaying it with 1minute is the difference of a siegetank melting your banelings or a banshee getting out. As you noticed in that game. You also microd your roaches poorly, 3-4 of them did nothing for most of the battle after supply depots where down getting stuck when on attack command at marauder. Micro is essential in this it will decide the battle, this is not a a move to victory strategy you must micro well to turn the game in your favor. Look at 6:15-6:30 thats when the bust SHOULD happen. With better micro I do think you could have gotten ahead there, the marauder doesn't need to die first the marines are as beneficial to kill they deal good dps. However with a bunker there I do think the bust would fail. However I find that amount of rax units is not normal as defense when they tech. But maybe I just play terrible terrans.
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You go one base. At 4minutes you have 9drones total and only 6 mining minerals! You build 8 zerglings very early that you use for nothing screwing you eco up totally.
Hrmm, can't remember the replay specifically, but if I had that few drones I must have 8 pooled to start out and he was able to block with the wallin, that can be the only explanation for that sort of drone count. So nevermind, I guess it wasn't similar to your BO. If I didn't 8 pool, I was going for a baneling bust, and either lost drones, or just suck, haha!
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Yes, the terran player didn't go full into a Banshee rush, and instead left some defending units there, could be a good idea, as one early banshee is enough to press the zerg. At this time the terran doesnt even have to micro it.
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EPT
