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On August 13 2010 22:13 Sixes wrote:
To the people testing:
What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)? It could save us the banelings and a roach or two and the overlord may get out alive (because the marines can't run out of the base to chase it, hell against a poor player it could open the base for us). If we have an extra overlord that's fine because we are going to spam a ton of drones right away anyways.
If the front is not bustable for any reason (marauders, rax-factory wall) we at least have enough information to choose speedling or lair (or more roaches if mass marine). While being defended by 5 roaches and 4 banelings as well as a few spine crawlers (if we feel we need them). We can keep pumping drones for at least a little bit (marauder pushes come later and we have a fair bit of defense.
I just think it is a great time to sac an overlord (because starport would be up for any fast starport play, the wall can be checked, addons can be checked).
Based on my sandbox experience so far, that would be an excellent time to move in an overlord that you have already positioned in proximity of his base. Although I wouldn't move it in from the front, but sideways so you can draw his attention away from his choke, perhaps earning you one or two unattended seconds. If you plan on retreating your Roaches, don't let the Terran see them. They will just invite aggression, and your chances of bringing them back to safety really dwindle.
Pumping drones at this point is absolutely necessary if you can't swing the game hugely in your favor by destroying his tech or production facilities or put a real dent in his SCV-count. You are sitting at 14 drones, which is really not enough at this point. However, as we have two hatches we can jump-start our economy from there. I found reinforcing with further Roaches not really optimal, because they are so terribly slow. They arrive at the front when the action is pretty much over; generally speaking.
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I was only talking about further roaches for defense of a pure marine push. Those 5 roaches are all you need for awhile.
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What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)?
I think this is a great idea. In particular if the timing works in the way that you can get a OL at 28 and drone pump before loosing that scouting OL and busting in. A possible desperation counter attack will not happen before another larvae cycle and then you have good defenses up again as long as the bust wasn't a total throw away into nothing. But with proper feeling, scouting and micro it shouldn't be a waste.
Although I wouldn't move it in from the front, but sideways so you can draw his attention away from his choke, perhaps earning you one or two unattended seconds.
And I totally agree. If that makes the wall even just slightly easier to break thats awesome
I will try and do this myself. The BO I find is really demanding though. There are so much things that need to click and get well timed, so I will probably forget and screw this up several times =) I can barely make the original BO flow well as it is into a transition. I pretty much make some mistake every game that slow me down 10-20sec or something but still it tends to work out great for me
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I'm still really wondering about the timing of the actual baneling bust, though. If the terran walls properly you won't have enough to break the wall and the rauders will just outrange your roaches.
My baneling bust follows DiMaga's I believe, 13p 12g, speed, baneling. Sometimes I go baneling before speed and do a slowling break for really really early breaks. I'm pretty sure this is much faster than hatching first. 6minute break seems very late to me, IIRC a normal baneling bust is a minute faster.
Also, vs bunker rushes, were they just not repairing? Roach ROF is so damn slow that bunkers just jump right to full hp.
I feel like this build is dependent on T feeling comfortable from blings by seeing an extra hatch?
Finally, how can you not be screwed if the wall is un-bustable? your tech is behind, drone count is low, and the roach's days are numbered once the T sees em and starts making a handful of rauders. If you pump drones AFTER you notice the wall is unbreakable, the T has been powering along as normal. The only way I can see you getting out of it is if the T throws his army at you early and loses it.
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This wouldn't work well against aggressive players. 2 gate or fast reaper will destroy this build.
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On August 14 2010 02:51 asianinvasian wrote:
This wouldn't work well against aggressive players. 2 gate or fast reaper will destroy this build.
it is fairly obvious if they are cheesing reaper...at which point you simply ditch the hatch and defend with your queen...theres no reason Z shoudl ever lose to FAST reaper....
this isnt a vP build, either....
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I tried a build similar to this recently, FE'ing and getting roaches and banelings asap. I ended up winning but only because the terran saw my banelings outside his base with a couple of hellion (which I killed eventually with roaches) and sat in his base, making 2 bunkers behind his wallin, allowing me time to macro up and tech to burrow and roach speed.
He ends up finally pushing out with rines/tanks but I burrow ambush his tanks and sandwich him with roaches.
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33725
I was very vulnerable early on, and probably a little better than my opponent to make this work. I just freestyled the whole thing, so not sure if I was close to your build order, but I thought I'd link the replay because it involves early baneling/roach with a FE.
Like I said before, I think the primary benefit to this build is its value as a "feint", as it looks like you are being really aggressive but really you just want to make drones. I would hesitate to call it a "Baneling Bust 2.0", as its almost never going to bust/win right away. The other value is it is nice to have both a baneling nest and a roach warren up, which you can capitalize on later when you have a better economy.
One other thing that could be useful with this build is if you show roaches, and hide your banelings, T might move out with just marines. With your roaches as forward scouts, you might be able to hide banelings behind concealing terrain and take out a ton of marines (10 - 16ish maybe if tightly packed) with very few banelings if you micro properly.
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I'm still not completely convinced...5 minutes is a bit late and a terran could have a double rax or rax/fac wall by that point which would make the bust completely worthless.
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Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
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On August 14 2010 06:05 Gyro wrote:
Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
Those were my thoughts. Properly timed (i.e. with the first marines immediately after scouting that hatch) with followup repairs of a few SCV/mule or even a maurader added to the bunker, that bunker shouldn't die before doing terrible, terrible, damage.
From a T perspective, I'd have no problem committing more scvs to repair that bunker considering how much damage it will do. Mules will skyrocket the T mineral income just fine early on.
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if you see a bunker with marines behind the wall in (it does happen), just bust the depo with the banelings and run by the bunker, go and for the scvs. Roaches dont take a lot of damage from marines (although raoches DPS isnt great), he can come out and fight you, or he can lose scvs, eather way you win.
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Finally, how can you not be screwed if the wall is un-bustable? your tech is behind, drone count is low, and the roach's days are numbered once the T sees em and starts making a handful of rauders. If you pump drones AFTER you notice the wall is unbreakable, the T has been powering along as normal. The only way I can see you getting out of it is if the T throws his army at you early and loses it.
Replay?
Tried it. Ended with bunker+marine. Then game over.
Replay?
Kill SCVs at bunker first? And done right you do have banelings for backup to at least save the FE. No bust but the T just committed 150 (marine) 100 (bunker) 100 (2 workers) 350minerals on that bunker rush. I do not see how roaches alone wouldn't handle that. And the question is what defense does T manage to scramble up in his base before you get there? So a replay please.
I also think marines + marauder wont get there in time. Maybe 1 marine and 1 marauder. But not 4 marines and 1 marauders as you make it sound.
I'm still not completely convinced...5 minutes is a bit late and a terran could have a double rax or rax/fac wall by that point which would make the bust completely worthless.
In which case you skip banes, use roaches for defense, or skip roaches and just get speedlings and continue playing as normal. You will see how the wall off will turn out long before its even up looking at the first buildings.
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On August 14 2010 03:19 Johnny_Vegas wrote:I tried a build similar to this recently, FE'ing and getting roaches and banelings asap. I ended up winning but only because the terran saw my banelings outside his base with a couple of hellion (which I killed eventually with roaches) and sat in his base, making 2 bunkers behind his wallin, allowing me time to macro up and tech to burrow and roach speed. He ends up finally pushing out with rines/tanks but I burrow ambush his tanks and sandwich him with roaches. http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=33725I was very vulnerable early on, and probably a little better than my opponent to make this work. I just freestyled the whole thing, so not sure if I was close to your build order, but I thought I'd link the replay because it involves early baneling/roach with a FE. Like I said before, I think the primary benefit to this build is its value as a "feint", as it looks like you are being really aggressive but really you just want to make drones. I would hesitate to call it a "Baneling Bust 2.0", as its almost never going to bust/win right away. The other value is it is nice to have both a baneling nest and a roach warren up, which you can capitalize on later when you have a better economy. One other thing that could be useful with this build is if you show roaches, and hide your banelings, T might move out with just marines. With your roaches as forward scouts, you might be able to hide banelings behind concealing terrain and take out a ton of marines (10 - 16ish maybe if tightly packed) with very few banelings if you micro properly.
You build is nothing like the one I proposed.
You go one base. At 4minutes you have 9drones total and only 6 mining minerals! You build 8 zerglings very early that you use for nothing screwing you eco up totally.
At 5:18 5 roaches in my BO would be ready, FE would be ready, and you would have 4 lings and 15 drones. You have 14 drones and 8lings at 5:18 and by then your roach warren is only half way done.
The bust would happen at ~6min look at your replay what does terran have then? 6 marines, 2 supply depot/bunker wall off. And a techlab building on the factory. You would have steam rolled him with the BO i proposed. In this particular replay the bust I propose would be a GG easily (but plz note that is not the intention of it). Your bust is ready at like 8min. Plenty of time for terran to wall in properly in response to scouting you and he also gets 2 siege tanks...
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I have been doing something similar , I dont have a build order past 14 pool:
13 extractor
14 pool
speed as its done
queen
2-6 lings~
get expo
power drone
go up to 30 pop~
check what terran is up to - don't see many defenses or see tech, throw baneling nest(usually on expansion less likely to get scanned) and win.
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What your talking about is a standard baneling bust, but you got a lot more drones instead. Sometimes it works, but its a totaly diffrent build to not get roaches, or a really fast expo.
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to elaborate on my mentioning of the bunker, i'm referring to a proxy bunker outside your hatch, not behind his wall when you're trying to bust.
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On August 14 2010 09:09 zomgzergrush wrote:
to elaborate on my mentioning of the bunker, i'm referring to a proxy bunker outside your hatch, not behind his wall when you're trying to bust.
I know it was misunderstood. But I knew what you were talking about. I'm still not convinced this is a problem. what is the optimal number of forces T can have in those bunkers at 5:15? Add to that, that there is 3-4 lings moving towards Ts base straight past bunkers at like 4min able to intercept any reinforcements easily taking down a lone marauder or a lone marine. It might loose you 1 or 2 lings and a few roaches but then you have the FE secured.
Added a new replay of a T going for fast thor and starport that is pretty interesting I think.
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What your talking about is a standard baneling bust, but you got a lot more drones instead. Sometimes it works, but its a totaly diffrent build to not get roaches, or a really fast expo.
I looked at one replay and basically exactly what i thought was going to happen - happened.
Which is: Early hatch - but you're making roaches early - so you don't have money for the larva anyhow , and you haven't even hit 16 drones on minerals on your main , so why do you early exp?
Honestly the build I suggest has a lot less waste and serves the same purpose and can be done much snappier - you can mass enough lings while nest is being built.
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Upon further analysis the fast hatch you made granted you a total of 3 larva (you had 1 to spare on main so it was more like 2).
This is kinda like terrans building 8 rax for the income of 1 base you can't sustain it.
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On August 14 2010 09:34 gustavo wrote:
Upon further analysis the fast hatch you made granted you a total of 3 larva (you had 1 to spare on main so it was more like 2).
This is kinda like terrans building 8 rax for the income of 1 base you can't sustain it.
watch more replays you are wrong. even if my timings are off. You can get 5 roaches when roach warren pops given good timings. The 6th larvae i used for an OL moments later (even if I do forget it at times thats the intention)
And you deal with thor drop on cliff / fast banshees how?
Cause thats the whole point of the BO. You present a build that is better economic but you present no way of doing what this BO intends to do.
Honestly the build I suggest has a lot less waste and serves the same purpose and can be done much snappier - you can mass enough lings while nest is being built.
No your bust is way later. Your expo would pop around 6min. And you cannot macro drones and get enough lings at the same time. At 5:15 which is when the roaches pop you could at max squeeze in 18 lings. Make 5 of those into banelings for a bust and you have 13 lings left to do damage with. But in this case you are at 15 drones as well! So the only difference is that I have an earlier expo and 5 roaches compared to your 13 speedlings. But I also have roach warren already! And I have more larvae to later turn into drones so my eco will kick start much faster then yours.
If you wanna argue against this please provide a replay where you have equal busting potential at 6min with the same amount of drones and similar tech. Much later then 6min and siegetanks are sieging and banshees are rolling
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EPT
