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If you scout reapers you can just skip the baneling nest for lair + ling speed. Use queens and lings to defend the initial reapers while pressuring your opponent with your roaches. Even without a baneling if they're pumping reapers they'll have trouble getting a good defense ready for your roaches.
I used to do this on 1 base with...
14gas
13pool
roach warren + 2x queen
4-6 roaches (variable depending on how many drones/lings I pump and when I toss down the warren*)
Expand + lair + speedling
roach speed
and it'd shut down any delayed reapers or mass LZGamer reaper styles. You can't always bust in on their side, but you can usually pull back their reapers at least. It kinda depends on whether or not they can get out a marauder in time. Even so if you get them off reapers you've done what you needed.
Doing it with 2 bases would be trickier, but it seems like you could make it work.
*I warren ideally at queen 75% done because then warren + vomit happen at the same time, but if I can't get the scout out by then I may delay it
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Let me be the first to dub this the 'Bro Bust'. Even if it's not a good build, although I think it will be (gets around the problems had by DIMAGA etc trying to apply early roach pressure to T off 1 base), it will be popular on name alone. Bro' Bust that bro, bro.
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Given that TLO did a 12, 13 hatch, why do you think the 9OL is better? I know it generates more income beyond the 15 drone mark, but a 12OL might be better for this (given the very very early hatch at 13, as a 12OL generates more income early but does worse then 9OL latter).
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I tried the build out on Xel Naga (no opponent, havent had time to play just wanted to test the build) and the timing is quite nice.
On Xel Naga I hit the opponent's base with the 5 roaches 4 banelings on the 6:15 mark without any crazy practice (I believe Xel Naga is a pretty long rush though).
Looking at my past games this is countered if they have gone for marauders but could still retreat (concussive is not quite finished, just 1 marauder out) and probably pick off the front tech lab (which was researching concussive shells actually so that could be extra, delaying the tech lab would delay the shell upgrade by tech lab time +research time all over again), thus stalling the marauder flow and delaying the push. As far as I could tell the lair can come up just as the push goes in and you can pump drones as the micro is happening. To my knowledge combined with the defensive stance the Terran will be in after banelings show up this means mutas will be nicely up (actually from after the push it plays a lot like 2 base play if you are forced to go defensive).
I honestly think this is a great play to avoid taking damage from harass and instead having the possibility to pressure him.
I noted that the absolute fastest banshee starts being built (as in the starport is just transferred to the tech lab at a little after 6:00). This means that a fast banshee build gets absolutely owned as he would have just a few marines, a basic wall and the banshee comes out a little too late to avoid a ton of damage.
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Having played this about 15 times against diamond players, I got to say this has some real potential. I played it more TLO style with a double extracter trick OL into 13 hatchery. I won outright about 50% of the time. The times I lost, it was usualy because of poor micro or not macroing enough while I attack (very very critical in this build like most early attacks). Things that did well against this build were fast 2 rax marauder (with almost no marines) and fast reactor hellions. The hellions can kill those lings/banelings very quickly if they see them which totaly stops the bust, and they can runby the roaches if they are too far out and own your drones. Fast marauder tends to do well because it just kills the roaches, then the counter push is very tough to beat (go to switch to mass speedling asap to have a chance). Banshies were too slow, and the tank that did come out meant they didnt have much of an army with it and the tank died quickly. I only had a few people try reaper against it, the roaches seemed to do ok (come out quick enough), and roaches tend to be one of the best counters to reaper (given they are armored).
I also did this several tiems on steps of war, and predectably on that map got bunker rushed almost every time, I lost my second hatch once because I miss timed it, but even that I think I could have held. The roaches come out in time to defend the hatch, and roaches are very good against marines, even in bunkers. The other option I havent tried out yet, is to just let the second hatch die, and counter attack with the roaches at his main going around the bunkers. (using the queen and 4 lings switched to banelings to defend against a marine counter to your main).
The really nice thing about this, is even when my attack got totaly crushed by mass marauder. I still felt like It wasnt All-In and I insta-lose do to bad econ. Your econ is definatly lower then a normal zerg, but with 2 hatches you can quickly catch up if you get the chance (after you stop the mass marauder push).
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Sixes and Obsid glad to see your input. I'm also of the opinion that the build can give you an "insta win" (you wont kill him but you will kill of techlabs, depots and scvs in good numbers) or get very huge lead vs fast banshee play and thor drop play or dual factory. Cause by the time you get there all the T has with those builds are a few marines. While insta wins are nice its not what I think ppl should have in mind when playing like this (its not like normal banelings bust in that sense but neither is it an all in and should not be treated as such).
A lot of ppl say that they dont know if T is going for this or that and its very hard to defend against everything. Well this opening rules out several of the quick higher tech paths by punishing them hard as well as it lets you scout it so you know what T is doing. If the build is solid enough to punish quick tech builds by T. You can adjust it so that you always focus it to be able to handle a mass rax counter attack / helion harass since you know its the only tech paths T can go without getting busted and getting a huge disadvantage. The only games where I lost or the game has gone over 20min has been with more then 2 rax openings. And I never lost to sneaky play only to a doom drop in my main since doing the build. So if the bust fails you haven't lost by far. And dealing with bio I'm way more comfortable with then dealing with thor,helion,tank.
I had a game yesterday vs a T that proxy reapered me. But he played it badly. He ran away when I attacked with drones and seconds later lings came out, again he ran away and picked of lings, then queen and roaches came out. I did loose quite a few drones but my counter attack with roaches did enough dmg to get me in the lead. No banelings used in that game. I still think if you see a early rax and early gas and tech lab going on that a cancel on hatch, pool asap with gas for ling speed might be a better choice. Haven't faced the 3 rax reaper yet. But as logo said instead of maybe getting the baneling nest we can get ling speed and have both roaches and speedlings on the field quickly to punish it, that sounds really interesting.
What needs to be incorporated in the build is sufficient scouting to determine when the T is fast teching - then the bust is a very good idea. With other T openings the bust might not be a good idea but you have some early defense vs helions and I think 5 roaches can do the job as good as 6 lings and 2 spines and the cost is almost the same. If its 3 rax its simply stupid to try and bust in. Just skip banelings completely and macro a bit more. And if T does a very good job hiding tech (marines around base to kill OLs) I do think that a bust is the best option you have. Cause you do not know if he is going thor drop, siege drop, banshees or mass rax and that is a position that can mean a loss in itself. And I do think sacrificing 4 banelings and a few roaches to find out what he is doing to be worth it and if you are lucky you might even catch him with his pants down going fast tech, if he does have 3 rax and you loose all but 2 roaches, pull back and commence defending your expo. Chances are you at least got a depot and maybe even a techlab kill even when facing mass raxes and that might slow him down a little. If you can keep macro up during the bust then you are in a decent position especially since you now know exactly what the T is doing and what kind of army he has.
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although I really like the idea, I think the BO has to be refined a little. When I do it, I often have 3 larvae sitting around doing nothing. I'd like to see whether it wouldn't be possible to suqeeze in another OL and drone a little harder, but I'm still testing! Will keep you updated on what I find out!
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On August 12 2010 19:26 mathemagician1986 wrote:
although I really like the idea, I think the BO has to be refined a little. When I do it, I often have 3 larvae sitting around doing nothing. I'd like to see whether it wouldn't be possible to suqeeze in another OL and drone a little harder, but I'm still testing! Will keep you updated on what I find out!
Awesome.
I kinda like the dual extractor idea into hatch. Gotta sit down some day in build order tester and check timings.
You are spot on here with that a faster bust doesn't have to be whats most important in the BO. As long as the bust can punish fast teching it does its job. Getting the BO to be optimal in terms of long term eco should be the goal while still being able to punish the fast tech BOs from T. So I really like your OL and drone approach.
The eco with this opening is actually pretty good if you skip the banelings. Cause then you can pull drones of gas when its at 125 for a bit and you can even skip 1 pair of lings for a drone. But for the bust to work I feel those 4 banelings are instrumental.
But maybe theres a BO that can get 4 banelings and 5 roaches like 10sec later that setups for a better ECO. That I would be really interested in.
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About the scouting and macro, the nice thing about this relatively late rush is that you should be able to get an OL there before the attack so you can at least check whats right behind the wall (which often gives away marauder play) and the composition of the wall (notably whether you can take out a supply depot and a tech lab with the banelings). If you take out a tech lab it reduces the strength of the counter push as well.
I think that a nice addition to the BO would be thinking about what should be built during the rush. Given the hardest counter push is with marauders, I would suggest getting ling speed (I noticed I hit 100 gas just after the push starts) which means marauder counters are bad OR lair for mutas as a fast follow up. If the lair, probably want another geyser.
Larvae should probably be just for drones at this point (with a second queen). This means we can actually get 2 decent expands up and still have 2 batches of larva to make defenses with if needed.
The beauty of it is we have roaches or banelings or speedlings at this point which can counter any ground push (especially a weakened one because of the rush) and if he went for fast air it should be very crippled (and the lair can be on the way, as well as a third queen if needed).
Edit: I'm not particularly keen on the idea of pulling drones from gas, we need 225 for the roaches and banelings and should probably get speedlings and/or lair asap as well as have some gas for defense if needed ... key points here are, just as you hit 28/28 and 100 minerals, make an OL, then at 100 gas get speedlings or lair right away, then drone, the 100 minerals should be as the roaches are crossing the map.
Another selling point is that it messes with Terran's scouting. With an early hatch they won't be expecting the 1 base busts (or at least have to plan for a potentially hard macroing zerg or fast 2 base muta or something). And we all know how annoying it is to see everything and still have no clue as to what's happening
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This is super super super interesting.
I'm sorry i can't add nothing but this at the moment, i'm going to make some test myself too so i can give some more feedback.
I feel right now that Terrans can get a lot of info from a simple scout (fast lair? 1 base? 2 base? 1 or 2 gases?)... this build seems to be more flexible than the others i've seen on that aspect...
Cheers!!
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I did something similar today on LT, well similar... No banelings, but i tried to go fast roach and bust into terran. I got in. Killed lots of scvs, then marauder fended me off. But he got like 6 scv's vs my 20 drones. I expanded while attacking. GG rite? No.
SURPRISE. Tank drop on cliff above my expo. Unstopable. Bye expo. He expoed himself. I did muta. He got thors. 2 base terran vs 1 base zerg. Thor push moves out. GG
Sorry for the bitterness. Back on topic. Watched your replays. I'm gonna give it a try just because I'm sick of being under siege in this game for 90% of the time. Even ZvP 100% of the games i just wait for him to push out while i eco and def. I want to attack once in a while too 
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On August 13 2010 01:13 bodycount wrote:
SURPRISE. Tank drop on cliff above my expo. Unstopable. Bye expo. He expoed himself. I did muta. He got thors. 2 base terran vs 1 base zerg. Thor push moves out. GG
Didn't you see factory + tech lab and starport when you got into his base? That should really trigger an alarm that something fishy is about to happen. I would definitely prepare to counter what he might be up to and if it was a map with cliff above expo I would assume some nasty harass and would definitely get mutas asap. You do not have to totally commit to mutas just make like 5 that should keep him in his base long enough for you to decide more muta, hydras, roaches, blings, slings, or tech hive. And if I saw techlab on factory or starport I would have them as one of my primary targets when busting in.
Transition into muta if you get in and do dmg and see mech starport play I think is a really good decision as it allows you to once again see exactly what T is doing and it also gives map control and harass and it can defend from most harass as well.
About the scouting and macro, the nice thing about this relatively late rush is that you should be able to get an OL there before the attack so you can at least check whats right behind the wall (which often gives away marauder play) and the composition of the wall (notably whether you can take out a supply depot and a tech lab with the banelings). If you take out a tech lab it reduces the strength of the counter push as well.
Scouting with OL is definitely a possibility but if T decides to move out and shoot it down your timing will be so messed up. I'm considering a drone scout at around 13-14 maybe? Or slightly earlier to get into his base and watch gas timings, then you can run around drone a long time in there and watch whats next with proper micro and gas stealing one marine has to struggle to stop you scouting. I usually die before I can get enough info but good players seem to keep their drone alive quite some time.
I think that a nice addition to the BO would be thinking about what should be built during the rush. Given the hardest counter push is with marauders, I would suggest getting ling speed (I noticed I hit 100 gas just after the push starts) which means marauder counters are bad OR lair for mutas as a fast follow up. If the lair, probably want another geyser.
This is exactly why I wrote D in the topic. I wanna have a discussion on this how to improve this build the most. I only came up with the opener and thought it had lots of potential but how to transition from it depending on scouting - I would like a good discussion on, and if we draw some conclusions we can agree on - I will certainly add that to the OP.
Larvae should probably be just for drones at this point (with a second queen). This means we can actually get 2 decent expands up and still have 2 batches of larva to make defenses with if needed.
I agree most times droning seems like the best idea. You are a bit behind in eco and need to make up for it either way. Droning hard you can get a really nice eco quickly. But thats risky if T intends to attack early. How much we can drone and how much defense that would be needed against some fairly common timing attack of 3-4 rax would need to be examined. So far I have been able to hold off all rax plays I had against me except one that doom dropped my main.
The beauty of it is we have roaches or banelings or speedlings at this point which can counter any ground push (especially a weakened one because of the rush) and if he went for fast air it should be very crippled (and the lair can be on the way, as well as a third queen if needed).
Yeah I agree. Its a opener that is very easy to adapt from. If we see 7 rax spamming marines we can easily get blings. If we see starport lair and hydra/muta is not far away. Getting 3-4 gas up also goes quickly.
Edit: I'm not particularly keen on the idea of pulling drones from gas, we need 225 for the roaches and banelings and should probably get speedlings and/or lair asap as well as have some gas for defense if needed ... key points here are, just as you hit 28/28 and 100 minerals, make an OL, then at 100 gas get speedlings or lair right away, then drone, the 100 minerals should be as the roaches are crossing the map.
For now I do prefer having the blings and keep drones there and have the ability to tech lair quick and/or speed quick just as you. When I started doing the build I got gas a bit later. it gives more minerals. It could be an option though in some variant of the opening (like if we scout T going heavy on the marauders or smth). I'm just highlighting that but I do agree that the gas gives a lot of flexibility early on.
Another selling point is that it messes with Terran's scouting. With an early hatch they won't be expecting the 1 base busts (or at least have to plan for a potentially hard macroing zerg or fast 2 base muta or something). And we all know how annoying it is to see everything and still have no clue as to what's happening
This is what I think is the major strength with the build. If the metagame evovles and this build gets useful and popular a T scouting it, he shouldn't even dare going for fast banshees or fast thor drop / tank drop. He would have to make marauders to feel safe OR wall off with production buildings. In both cases thats a major advantage to Z. Either you will see his tech by forcing a dual facility wall off or you will force him into marauders. And if we scout him going marauders we can skip the banes, use roaches for defense and drone hard. And then you can just mass speedling baneling and feel safe for a time while getting mutas to effectively deal with any kind of later cliff harass or banshee.
I never transitioned into speedlings myself. I have only tried a muta transtion but I think the mutas are risky if you suspect a very fast ground counter attack. In a lot of other situations a muta transition seems to be really good though. Muta transition might be best if you see that the T adapts to your play and starts making marauders as opposed to already having a number of them. If he already had marauders then a transition into sling bling is probably the way to go as the counter attack is probably gonna be at your door before you can get mutas out.
This is now theorycrafting with some experience thrown in to back it up on my part. But I think to develop this into a stronger build I rather have more ppl involved then playing 100 games myself to start drawing solid conclusions about its usefulness and possible transitions and how to react to different kind of scouting information
Sorry for sloppy english Im tired.
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If rushed banshees aren't a proble with this build do you really need the queen? You might be able to get those roaches out sooner if you skipped the queen.
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I also tried getting more replays but I'm baffled over how terrible the terrans I now face are despite being like 450-550 rating. I guess terran is really easy mode  In these 2 games the terran play horribly IMO maybe they are thrown of by the uncommon build and the early pressure? If I could show replays where terrans play better I would its not my fault they are bad like that :S
Now neither of these games shows a bust where I win cause he went banshees or something. But there are some replays in OP showing that potential. But it shows that the opening can handle some plays by T that is not optimal for it. Neither of the games are particularly good IMO and all Ts play badly, and I could certainly play better. But if you watch them with the intent of seeing how the build can be adapted and handle different things I think they are interesting.
If anyone else have replays to add to the thread that would be awesome!
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55346-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
this is against proxy reaper (a 500+ rated terran can you believe that by the way he plays?). He could have killed my whole mineral line if he was any good. But if it wasn't proxy maybe lings and queen would have come out in time. As you see roaches pop in time to save FE from reapers. Then I think my counter attack do more dmg then I did to him and he counter attacks quicker then I thought and I loose FE. Then its a normal game kinda. I do not make early blings here as my eco does not allow it. The game is not standard at all. But looking at timings it might actually be safe from non proxy reaper? Otherwise scout needs to verify reaper or alter build in some way.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55347-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
And another where the T goes 2 barracks with techlabs and masses maruaders and marines. The bust is totally fail, I see he has a bunch of marines and marauders so I make spines and blings + roach for defense and I hold him off fine. This is a 450 rated terran.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55374-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
And a 3rd where I see barrack+tech lab I get scared of reapers so I just go speedlings instantly. Turns out it was a marauder and another rax so a bust wouldn't have been optimal anyway. Or it might have as he had all he depos there. oh well. Shows that its easy to transition depending on scout and get a good eco going. Rest of the game I play horrificly and loose. But this is about the opening so it doesnt matter what happens after 10-15min or so. If I had seen an early factory I would go for the bust. So with a scout at 12 you still have room to change strategy.
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On August 13 2010 04:58 crimsonsentinel wrote:
If rushed banshees aren't a proble with this build do you really need the queen? You might be able to get those roaches out sooner if you skipped the queen.
I feel that you might gain like 5sec doing so. And you will sacrifice econ for slightly earlier roaches, which I do not think its worth. It COULD be worth it but not for a stronger bust but for better defense vs early reapers and stuff. The point is you have roaches fast enough for early banshees they do not have to be faster in this aspect. In that case I would go earlier hatch and earlier pool as well. Since with the original BO you do have enough minerals to get both a queen and roach warren and a few seconds later 2*lings or 2*drones.
Making it earlier is a possibility but it makes it more all inish and not as stable. And if roaches
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I don't mean skip the queens entirely, but build them after the roaches. You don't have the econ to support extra larva if you're building roaches.
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On August 13 2010 05:11 crimsonsentinel wrote:
I don't mean skip the queens entirely, but build them after the roaches. You don't have the econ to support extra larva if you're building roaches.
No but you save the larvae for when you do?
Could be viable. Feel free to experiment!
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I added this page to the wiki to describe this build (hopefuly as we refine it better we can tweak that wiki page:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Baneling/Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran)
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Tried it out once (only got one Terran in 4 games) and got stomped.
The game looked a lot like your second one except he knew how to micro against banelings instead of just sitting there and getting hit. Basically 3 rax marauders, I try to bust and retreat (I lose a little more than him but nothing crazy).
He waits a little, attacks with an ungodly amount of infantry while still having an even econ (because Terran works that way). I had some lings banelings and roaches. On the first push I lose the expand, he expands (I checked the replay) as he pushes again with just more and more marauder/marine (with a siege tank or two at this point).
It's amazing how little we can do before baneling speed, not sure I could have gotten it out in time. Needs more testing but if you see the mass marauder build, start moving fast ... The really dumb part is that during his second push he had a banshee coming out as well at his base so even if I hold it off and keep my expand I get smacked in the face :x.
No clue how Zerg can keep up economically and militarily to a Terran who isn't totally clueless. By the way I was 30 APM over the guy (70-40) and wasn't outmicroed, just never sure what to build or when he will attack.
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On August 13 2010 07:01 Sixes wrote:
Tried it out once (only got one Terran in 4 games) and got stomped.
The game looked a lot like your second one except he knew how to micro against banelings instead of just sitting there and getting hit. Basically 3 rax marauders, I try to bust and retreat (I lose a little more than him but nothing crazy).
He waits a little, attacks with an ungodly amount of infantry while still having an even econ (because Terran works that way). I had some lings banelings and roaches. On the first push I lose the expand, he expands (I checked the replay) as he pushes again with just more and more marauder/marine (with a siege tank or two at this point).
It's amazing how little we can do before baneling speed, not sure I could have gotten it out in time. Needs more testing but if you see the mass marauder build, start moving fast ... The really dumb part is that during his second push he had a banshee coming out as well at his base so even if I hold it off and keep my expand I get smacked in the face :x.
No clue how Zerg can keep up economically and militarily to a Terran who isn't totally clueless. By the way I was 30 APM over the guy (70-40) and wasn't outmicroed, just never sure what to build or when he will attack.
replay? I'm very interested to see fails as well.
Do you think a different BO would matter for you in that game? What could you have done differently?
Yeah the bust does not work against rax builds. If you do scout 2+ rax. You should skip the bust and not waste your army trying a bust that will fail anyway. You are in a slightly worse economical situation compared to making maybe 10lings and 2 crawlers at nat which is a very common opening. But with 5 roaches you have kinda the same ability to defend. Do you really think that that slight eco disadvantage this build gives lost you the game?
I think the best response to marauder marine is ling/bling early game and crawlers. Best play against it I think would be to get 2nd queen asap and get as much lings and banelings as you can.
If the build can work/get tweaked to stand against early aggression from rax's that would be awesome.
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EPT
