EPTAlso note that it doesnt fail agianst all rax builds, just ones with at least 2 raxes with marauders.
[G/D] Baneling bust 2.0 - Page 3
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obsid
United States389 Posts
Also note that it doesnt fail agianst all rax builds, just ones with at least 2 raxes with marauders. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 13 2010 08:38 obsid wrote: The only real question I have on this build right now is OL on 15 or on 16. I think with 16, you can squeese out an extra drone (by using another ET right before you build that last roach), and have a little better econ. Also note that it doesnt fail agianst all rax builds, just ones with at least 2 raxes with marauders. Do you think its an insta fail vs equally skilled opponent. Or is there a way to handle it? Like a transition into speedlings? I also wonder how much worse the econ is compared to 15hatch 14 pool + 2 spines + 10-16 lings and a few drones lost to helion harass that seems to be common on higher level play. you waste 2 drones on spines, like 5 on lings, and I often see like 2-3 drones die. But at least 7 larvae on defense. With early roaches maybe you can simply wall off good enough at nat to not risk as many drones to helions and have queen wall of ramp in the event you see helions. theres 5 larvae for roaches and 2 for the lings and 1 for the roach warren. Baneling nest does not have to go down this early if the bust seems like it would do you more harm then good. But I do not have the greatest sense for the timings and how the eco fares in different situations. Might have to test that with some BO map or something unless someone here has a good feeling for this and can straight up tell me that I'm like 6 drones behind at 7min or smth, T was my worst MU before hands down. After starting with this I'm like 7 wins 2 losses (and one of them is for sure not due to the opener). So thats why I keep insisting that it might be valuable. | ||
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Tethyrian
33 Posts
I would suggest killing the supply and, granted there are no hellions or marauders, use the banelings to kill either scv's, or marines. If there is a tank, kill it with the roaches, they can take one tank easily. It just seems that saving the banelings for worker or army destruction seems like a better idea than using them for the depot. While the depot will cripple them if destroyed, the roaches can kill it, and the banelings will definitely do much more damage if saved for something else. | ||
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Pheard
Canada22 Posts
Edit: with that being said I do like this build a lot, I just have only faced one terran opponent out of the ~8 games I've played today. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
I had another vs a T that bunker rushed. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/55538-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple In the fray I kinda forgot to make a baneling nest I also mess timing up a bit. But imagine what 3 banes ( lost a ling  ) could have done to that supp depot and techlab on the factory. Now T didn't repair as he should which was lucky for me. I only manage to kill of one techlab and 2 scvs or something. But it makes us even in workers. I transition to mutas that totally destroys his marauder/tank ball he has going.Gonna update OP with all replays later and hopefully have some where I get in the lead vs ppl that play decently and when I do not screw up the BO And had another vs a 3 rax + factory (helions). But that T had like 1k mins in the bank so not great play by him. Even with a lot more stuff I do think we would have been really even despite me again fucking up my macro and getting shit econ for the first 8min in the game. Speedling baneling handled it well | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
Since you're going for a 13 hatch, 9OL is definitely better. Also, shouldn't you scout with your very first lings to at least see if his wall-off is bustable? As far as I can tell, top terrans will defend this easily with a proper wall-in. However, I think that the interesting part is that you can do the same build with slightly later gas, still build the baneling nest just to keep him on his toes, but then get Lair instead of 4+ banelings. You can then go for a spire, and finally use that baneling nest for marines. Basically, the question we have to ask is if the resources invested into an early nest will force the terran to waste extra ressources or stay in his base longer, thus giving us the upper hand? Or will it be the extra ressources we need to actually stay alive...? | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
And if he makes a proper wall in that means we can more easily scout his tech. And such a wall off how does it look? Naked prod facilities? thats no fun. Bunkers? they cost. And in that case we can skip the banes and go lair earlier. And IF a FE into roach warren becomes "aha its the roach bust" then they wall off so we can see the tech and maybe add some bunker or smth using 100 minerals and maybe get 1 marauder using 100 gas they might not have wanted to use. So that makes the omg how fast can terran get banshees problem a bit better as well as the omg I cant scout terran. If it comes to this and we scout it with OL or a drone we just skip the baneling nest and 5 roaches. And just drone hard and tech lair and make whatever we need to stop that now slightly delayed cliff drop. But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Whats interesting is if the build could even come to that point where it is feared like this. Is it good enough, does it threaten fast tech builds enough to force this kind of wall off response in terran. Can you adapt well enough to respond to rax builds etc. Try it out and post your experience with replays! | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 13 2010 05:33 obsid wrote: I added this page to the wiki to describe this build (hopefuly as we refine it better we can tweak that wiki page:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Baneling/Roach_Rush_(vs._Terran) btw I think thats a great short summary of what I tried to say in this thread. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
Now I need to recheck the replay but I believe I could get a lair and speed while poking at the front door. I check the wall in with an overlord as the roaches are running down. I get to see what the wall is and what's right behind it. If he sends out marines the roaches get free kills. If there are too many marauder/marine you know there are multiple barracks and you can add a few spine crawlers back at home and get ready to spam out lings and get baneling speed. Baneling speed is essential in crashing them into a well microed marine ball and I think it's what I really lacked in that game. I definitely didn't lose because of the opener but just due to a lack of experience with the follow up to it (well, first game with it lol). | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On August 13 2010 11:20 Izzachar wrote: He will see the early gas and late pool with his scouting SCV.Do T expect a bust after he sees the FE and the roach warren? Cause that is all he will see without a scan. And if he makes a proper wall in that means we can more easily scout his tech. And such a wall off how does it look? Naked prod facilities? thats no fun. Bunkers? they cost. As for the wall, well that seems to be a fine art, but depending on the angle of the ramp, they might not have to expose anything juicy. AFAIK though, good terran players always make their wall bust-proof when they see early gas, be it with bunkers, extra depots or rax. Aside from that, good post, I'm curious to see some more replays against good terrans and different forms of harass. | ||
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
How is this better than a properly timed earlier baneling bust? There will be more units waiting and more than likely enough rauders to take care of your roaches... This build also does not strike me as any less all in. In the end if this fails you still spent all your gas elsewhere and have no expo reasonably populated. Finally, 14 hatch against T? Bunker rush all day long. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
its not a latter baneling bust, it actualy occurs at about the same time (maybe a few seconds sooner even). Because you dont have to wait for speed to finish, nor are you putting gas into speed before the baneling nest. You also get more drones then a normal baneling bust, as well as spending less larva (as each roach is more attacking force per larva then lings are). Yes your best bet it to get a lot of marauders, but we are talking more then 1 rax with a tech lab (you wont have enuogh when it hits if thats all you got). 2 rax with techlabs will stop this bust, but if I see that many marauders, I'm not going to bust, just pull back, drone up, and get speed lings, while i wait for muta. And who said anything about a 14 hatch? This is a 13 hatch with an immedate roach warren. Bunker rush me all you like, but when i have 5 roaches and a queen on that bunker, its going to die, I have played this build against diamond players that bunker rushed me on steps of war (can you get any more advantages of a bunker rush?), and still killed all the bunkers and the marines and saved my hatch, losing 1-2 roaches and having a queen thats a bit hurt (but not dead). The counter attack can be brutal. | ||
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onionchowder
United States137 Posts
But here's the issue - If they wall with rax/fact/port instead of depots, or if they build a well-positioned bunker, the baneling bust will not work at all. Ultimately, the issue is this - if the Terran does a solid wall, it completely negates any effect this timing push may have. Roaches and banelings won't give you the map control that speedlings would, and if the slow roaches are at the terran base, they can't help you defend against reaper/hellion harass. Don't get me wrong - I like the innovation. But all I'm saying is it's still quite all-in-esque, don't fool yourself into thinking it can be standard play. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Elyzah
5 Posts
General statements like the ones above do not contribute in any way to this discussion. We do not execute such tactics against an omnipotent, omniscient entity. The scenario of two perfect players with perfect knowledge is not what this game is about. It is the gradient of skill, knowledge and perception that allows this game to be dynamic. Otherwise it would just be a sophisticated "Connect 4". So please review stratagems like this in the dimension of reality and actual in-game-experience, and not in an error-free theoretical space. On topic: In my experience, I'm able to get my push to the enemy's base between minute 6:00 (Steppes of War) and minute 6:45 (Desert Oasis). The limiting factor here are always the roaches. I've experimented with the building order at 15 supply between A) Queen->Roach Warren->Zerglings and B) Roach Warren -> Queen -> Zerglings. It didn't make much difference. In case B I could start with roaches a little earlier, but had to wait for enough minerals to build the 4th and 5th so that the result was not much different fom A. So obviously the efficiency of the push varies with rush distance. I realized that the zerglings are at their destination quite some time before you can morp them into banelings. I'd like to try to create one more drone instead of a zergling pair and put instead put that pair into line with Roaches. With the difference with Ling- and Roachspeed, perhaps the time is sufficient to have 4 banelings when the roaches arrive. In case that doesn't work, use the zerglings to spot for any proxy-action before sending them to their destination. I've practiced this build a bit against hard AI to gauge the effectiveness of follow-up and transitions. I built an overlord at 28 (obviously) to follow up with a queen and at least to vomits worth of drones. That would up the drone count from 14 to something like 22 to 28, depending on how successful your push was. I then went lair, took 3 more gas and went muta/ling which was really fluid. It gives us the possibility to prevent any form of drops, is a good counter against the counter terran is most likely to build to our push and can be easily bolstered with some banelings if T decides to stay Marine-heavy. Naturally the follow up has to be tested against human players, but from a mechanical point of view the follow ups really seem to fall in place very easy. I can supply a replay of the transition mentioned above, but am at work right now. It can be easily replicated however. | ||
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GaussWaffle
United States211 Posts
it failed horribly. The banes did their job sure, but the guy (who again had never played SC2 before then) had time enough for a bunker, 3 marauders, and 2 marines, with another marauder coming out. His sim city was confusing enough for my roaches so that they lost to this army. While I had 4 roaches as reinforcements, it just felt extremely underwhelming compared to the typical baneling bust. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
On August 13 2010 12:25 zomgzergrush wrote: So it's a later baneling bust with no ling and a few roaches instead. How is this better than a properly timed earlier baneling bust? There will be more units waiting and more than likely enough rauders to take care of your roaches... This build also does not strike me as any less all in. In the end if this fails you still spent all your gas elsewhere and have no expo reasonably populated. Finally, 14 hatch against T? Bunker rush all day long. I gotten bunker rushed 2 times and I have fended it off easily both times. As been said in the thread several times now compared to the normal baneling bust its not an all in and with scout you can easily adapt into 13 hatch, 14 pool, lingspeed make lings, queens, drones no problem at all (but getting roaches is by far the best choice if you do get bunker rushed as they crush it) But here's the issue - If they wall with rax/fact/port instead of depots, or if they build a well-positioned bunker, the baneling bust will not work at all. Ultimately, the issue is this - if the Terran does a solid wall, it completely negates any effect this timing push may have. Roaches and banelings won't give you the map control that speedlings would, and if the slow roaches are at the terran base, they can't help you defend against reaper/hellion harass. Don't get me wrong - I like the innovation. But all I'm saying is it's still quite all-in-esque, don't fool yourself into thinking it can be standard play. Thats not an issue. Then you know he went 1/1/1 or whatever and not 4 rax and you now that teching lair and prepare for a drop is what you wanna do asap. This helps with the problem that many Z express with the T MU; that they cannot scout what kind of harass T is doing this time or if he is 4 raxing a one base attack 13 hatch 14 extractor 13 pool? You die so hard to a rush, it's not even close I never lost to a rush -ever- you can scout at 9 with this build (and delay it a little bit) and adapt accordingly. And even in the cases where I didnt scout and went, 13 hatch, 14 ext, 13pool roach warren and got 11 rax proxy reaper I got out defenses in time to take the lead. And the two bunker rushes I faced as I said that this BO handles easily. You just let the rines get the FE hatch to 50% hp while you wait for your 5 roaches. BTW terran can't rush Z without going all-insh. So just scout I just tried this build vs. a player who had never played a single game on SC2 before. I messed up a bit on the timing because it was my first run it failed horribly. The banes did their job sure, but the guy (who again had never played SC2 before then) had time enough for a bunker, 3 marauders, and 2 marines, with another marauder coming out. His sim city was confusing enough for my roaches so that they lost to this army. While I had 4 roaches as reinforcements, it just felt extremely underwhelming compared to the typical baneling bust Underwhelming compared to a typical banelings bust? What league are you in? A typical baneling bust is underwhelming in the way that it almost always fails at high level and when it does you can GG cause there is NO comeback. before anyone else makes any theoretical or half assed attempts at this BO. Check all replays posted in this thread they show how it handles lots of things. Even if they play after the opener isn't optimal by either player And do I have to say this again. If your scout gives you intel of 2+ rax YOU DO NOT BUST, you do not make roaches! You go lingspeed+banelings nest instead and macro up and make defense. I will provide rep of this later cause I have one just like that You might even think of the opener this way. roach warren, baneling nest isn't standard. You only do get these if scouting shows that you should. If you suspect higher tech play like drop, banshees you go for it and punish T for doing it. And if he does wall of with the buildings you know exactly what he is doing and can react properly- him teching always means more queens and lair - him raxing stay on T1 banelings and lings | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
If you see 3 marines and a hellion or something and the tech going up, bust him (usually these tech builds need addons and have precise timings so he can't just have bought a ton of extra stuff). Your opponent scouted the hatch and maybe the roach warren so might not be too worried about his wall-in. The nice thing is that if you do see marine/marauder you are already getting speed and/or a lair as well as a bunch of drones but you have your expand creep, some roaches so soak up hits, some banelings and lings. To the people testing: What do you think about saccing an overlord just when the 5th roach is made (and build 2 OLs asap)? It could save us the banelings and a roach or two and the overlord may get out alive (because the marines can't run out of the base to chase it, hell against a poor player it could open the base for us). If we have an extra overlord that's fine because we are going to spam a ton of drones right away anyways. If the front is not bustable for any reason (marauders, rax-factory wall) we at least have enough information to choose speedling or lair (or more roaches if mass marine). While being defended by 5 roaches and 4 banelings as well as a few spine crawlers (if we feel we need them). We can keep pumping drones for at least a little bit (marauder pushes come later and we have a fair bit of defense. I just think it is a great time to sac an overlord (because starport would be up for any fast starport play, the wall can be checked, addons can be checked). | ||
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