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I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
Your 2nd hatchery is sitting at 3 larva and you have 11 WORKERS MINING + 3 on gas.
11 workers is not enough to sustain ZERGLING from 1 base, nevermind making a roach warren and roaches, my suggestion to you is delaying that exp would let you have a lot stronger economy by simply making more drones instead of wasting a fuckton of larva from doing 13 hatch(you're wasting the larva from your main since you have to wait to collect 300 minerals) , so honestly the fast hatch is actually REDUCING the amount of larva you have.
I dont have a "baneling 2.0" build , my build usually only goes up to 15 queen then I try to adapt to what I see (and end up failing miserably hehe) , unless its a map like blistering sands then I have a roachling build that I copied from dimaga(pro).
13 ext
14 pool
15 queen/ol/ 2-6 lings
ling speed + get exp
power drone to 25-30~ pop
take a look at terrans base - teching/no defenses
throw baneling nest - spam zergling from 2 bases , cool thing about this "build" is zerglings are freaking fast , so you can keep flooding them in.
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On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
Your 2nd hatchery is sitting at 3 larva and you have 11 WORKERS MINING + 3 on gas.
11 workers is not enough to sustain ZERGLING from 1 base, nevermind making a roach warren and roaches, my suggestion to you is delaying that exp would let you have a lot stronger economy by simply making more drones instead of wasting a fuckton of larva from doing 13 hatch(you're wasting the larva from your main since you have to wait to collect 300 minerals) , so honestly the fast hatch is actually REDUCING the amount of larva you have.
I dont have a "baneling 2.0" build , my build usually only goes up to 15 queen then I try to adapt to what I see (and end up failing miserably hehe) , unless its a map like blistering sands then I have a roachling build that I copied from dimaga(pro).
13 ext
14 pool
15 queen/ol/ 2-6 lings
ling speed + get exp
power drone to 25-30~ pop
take a look at terrans base - teching/no defenses
throw baneling nest - spam zergling from 2 bases , cool thing about this "build" is zerglings are freaking fast , so you can keep flooding them in.
The bust is still to late to punish teching. His thor will already be pounding your FE by then or there will be siege tanks in Ts base obliterating your banelings before they reach the wall. My bust happens before a siege tank can get out with siege. But if you have replays to prove otherwise feel free to submit them!
If I delay the hatch I will delay the bust and then its redundant cause the the whole point of the BO is being able to bust even if the BO in itself is inferior to other builds looking at it strictly economic. But IF you scout smth like 2-3 rax there is nothing stopping you from just powering drones of hatch+queen+hatch as much as you want and in that case this BO is still more economic then yours. Yours is however more fool proof against smth like early reapers.
And there are no larvae wasted until the very end of this BO from the FE hatch I believe there is 1-2 larvae that gets unused. Well I guess ure right then kinda. Gonna look into that cause maybe I can put down pool 13 and hatch 14 instead. There are no larvae wasted when making the early hatch or the pool if done right. That I waste larvae cause I'm busy looking at my scout has nothing to do with the BO being unoptimized but only with me being a cruddy player
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No the thor wont be out, I BARELY(hehe) beat a 600+ diamond terran player on LT doing this and he went for banshees which I think come out before thor + medivac (correct me plz if I'm wrong).
I simply cannot understand how you still insist your build order isnt extremely wasteful and risky, its not a matter of how you press your keys I just went and looked at the replay again for the fourth time , you do a pretty decent job at keeping money low, its just MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to make THOSE UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND NOT WASTE PRETTY MUCH ALL YOUR EXPANSION LARVA.
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On August 14 2010 10:48 gustavo wrote:
No the thor wont be out, I BARELY(hehe) beat a 600+ diamond terran player on LT doing this and he went for banshees which I think come out before thor + medivac (correct me plz if I'm wrong).
I simply cannot understand how you still insist your build order isnt extremely wasteful and risky, its not a matter of how you press your keys I just went and looked at the replay again for the fourth time , you do a pretty decent job at keeping money low, its just MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to make THOSE UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND NOT WASTE PRETTY MUCH ALL YOUR EXPANSION LARVA.
I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago.
I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it
There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed.
If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird.
You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking.
This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while.
Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with
and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again.
TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA
But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky).
Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. What the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely)
If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it.
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I played a few ladder games today, I'm around 200-300 diamond range. I played 3 terrans, and two of them went 2 rax builds, the last one went 1-1-1.
My bust was successful for the 1-1-1, he had no defenses (except for banshees that popped out after I mangled his econ).
Then, one of the 2 raxes went mostly marine and was adding tanks. I busted just before his tank popped out and I sniped the tank with my roaches.
The last 2 rax was a problem though, as he went heavy marauder/marine (2tech/1reactor), even without scanning me, and he just wiped me clean (my 4 spines came up in time on Xel Naga Caverns, but it wasn't enough, even with speedlings/banelings/queens). I would have attempted to scout it, but I feel there is no leniency for scouting in this build because it either forces me to show my hand or sac an overlord that I preciously need for a good bust.
I'm not sure how to adapt this build if I see a 2 rax with marauders. I dunno, I feel that I see a lot of 2/3rax plays, so it's hard to attempt this build unless I get lucky against a 1-1-1.
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@crisis
I feel you have a good understanding of this build. It does very very well agaisnt the 1-1-1 style, and is usualy an insta win (or kills there eco and wins shortly after).
The 3 rax (2 with techlabs), which I would say is the best counter agaisnt this build. Did you attempt the bust and lose the roaches? I know you dont have a lot of scouting info, but sacing an overlord (after you make the last roach and are getting ready to move in), can be well worth it to see this build coming. If you dont bust, and just pull back get speedligns and drone up and then get lair, I think you can handle a pure rax play fairly easy. The key is not to bust, or if you do, and see a lot of marauders, run away fast before you lose too many roaches. roaches alone die to marauders very very fast, with speedligns and roaches though, you should be ok.
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You should try and keep the scouting drone alive long enough to see dual gas or what his next building is. One way of doing that is to gas steal him when his marine comes out and then cancel it and scout again running in circles trying to avoid the marine.
If that fails you have a very narrow window of trying to poke with lings at ramp or OL to determine if you should build your roaches, both of which is a bit risky for the build I think as loosing lings or OL is pretty detrimental at that point.
How did that 2rax game go? Did you bust anyway? Or did you pull back to defend? Can we have the replay?
Edit: Obsid beat me to it. I'm still interested to see the replay. If the build is a no go vs a well hidden mass rax even with pulling back your bust units I would have to reconsider it somehow
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Ah, I just rewatched the replay and it was actually a 3 rax. I think I messed up on the timings a little (I droned up a little too much), but I don't think it would have made a difference anyway. Also I should have put spines up before producing zerglings, I think. I'm not sure how many spines is a good amount vs a 3 rax (it certainly isn't 4).
I think I got really overconfident when I saw the techlab and depots. I hoped to blow up a depot and a tech lab in one go, and push in and win, but then I saw the massive amount of marauders, and I sort of panicked and didn't pull back, haha.
Here's the replay since you requested it:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56505-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
Do you think I could've won if I fended the attack off?
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I'm tempted vr a 3 rax (2 tech lab) build to not "bust him" but maybe just destroy the depo at the front if i can (with the banelings), not move in the roaches. I think the suply block it probably gives might give you more time for lings, what do you think?
Also most terrans i know that see banelings that just destroyed thier front suply depo, rebuild it and 1 more and a bunker to be safer against a baneling bust. That would really slow down the terran. Maybe thats just mistakes/the meta game right now though.
Edit, after looking at the replay, you were a little slow on the build (your bust happened at 7mni game time which is about 30 sec slower then it should be, I think this is because you got too many drones, and then had to wait for an extra overlord before you could get enough roaches, I did this many times by accident when I first tried this build). In the end though you were 3 workers behind the terran (+mules), so if you held the attack you should have been ok. I think even in your game where you lost all the roaches, if you hadnt blocked your zergligns by accident, or had brought down your other queen to transfuse the spines you would have been fine. Also notice that losing that 1 suply depo, meant that he was supply capped the whole way up to attack you (untill he lost units in the attack), so he had 0 reinforcements coming.
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Actually, I think when they see banelings destroy their depot and deflect the attack as they come up (3 rax), they just overreact and make a bee-line straight to your base.
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On August 15 2010 03:03 Crisis_ wrote:Ah, I just rewatched the replay and it was actually a 3 rax. I think I messed up on the timings a little (I droned up a little too much), but I don't think it would have made a difference anyway. Also I should have put spines up before producing zerglings, I think. I'm not sure how many spines is a good amount vs a 3 rax (it certainly isn't 4). I think I got really overconfident when I saw the techlab and depots. I hoped to blow up a depot and a tech lab in one go, and push in and win, but then I saw the massive amount of marauders, and I sort of panicked and didn't pull back, haha. Here's the replay since you requested it: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/56505-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsDo you think I could've won if I fended the attack off?
You saw the 2nd rax with your drone scout which means its not a super fast tech build. So its not a problem to delay any possible bust.
I would poke with overlords as best I could after I seen that 2nd rax with drone scout and I would poke the ramp. In this case it is worth loosing an OL to know what he is doing. Cause you know he can't go very fast tech so the delay in the bust loosing this OL would mean isn't a problem. Should you see a factory starport at this point and 2 rax with just a few marines then make a bigger later bust but I think banes+lings is a better choice here as you should have no built roach warren OR get lair and play "normal"
Poking at the ramp would have given you vision of a techlab at the first rax. Which means either reapers but in this case most probably marauders. And I do not think most Ts swap that rax for say a starport with lab at their front as that simply gives their strat away. And if hen did you could just respond with lair + queens. So in this case I would assume rax play and adapt to that.
I think that if you suspect rax builds then you should not make the roach warren. Instead drone a little more get ling speed then go all out zergling and baneling. I really like +1 melee as well. 1-2 crawlers at natural to help against helions. Then its pretty much a standard ZvT bio game. Get banelings speed, infestors etc. etc. With this delayed tech I think a hydra den, infestor or spire should be down at this point able to handle most sneaky tactics.
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Hi all!
I am a novice SC2 gamer and I tried the Baneling Bust 2.0 vs my little brother, but it didn't work out for me. I got the feeling I was to slow in following the BO, and in the replay i saw, i could have been some seconds faster. I also kinda screwed up the build at the last stage, as I built an Ovi with the roaches instead of building all the 5 roaches at once and then the Ovi, but I don't know whether this was the issue that led to my failure. The map was scrap station and it took a long time for my roaches to arrive at the terran's base (1 minute at normal/replay time, should be around 40 secs in fast). My brother managed to rally 5 rines, 1 rauder at 6:45 and i think they would have been a problem for my force. Nearly one minute later he had 2 additional hellions and 1 banshee, when I attacked and broke in (which didn't win the game anyway..). Please give me some hints where I can improve, I fear I've overlooked something important..
EDIT:
Other mistakes I made were:
I accidentally sent 4 Drones to gas instead of 3, and I forgot 1 roach at the base (didn't set waypoint at this time), so that I attacked with 7 Roaches.
At the end I mistakenly bred a 2nd Queen instead of an Overlord at my main base and send her to the expansion, right when the Banshee attacked, as I thought one Queen should be enough to deal with it and I wanted to secure the expansion. I was surprised to see my Queen die vs one Banshee..
Perhaps after Banshees arrive, you should put additional Queens to each expansion, trying to have at least slightly more than potential banshee count (they take about a minute), at least before the queens have enough energy to heal themselves. This would be an extremely defensive style, and wouldn't take many ressources for other actions, at least for some few minutes.
I updated the link to the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/57369-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
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On August 16 2010 05:23 mjamz wrote:Hi all! I am a novice SC2 gamer and I tried the Baneling Bust 2.0 vs my little brother, but it didn't work out for me. I got the feeling I was to slow in following the BO, and in the replay i saw, i could have been some seconds faster. I also kinda screwed up the build at the last stage, as I built an Ovi with the roaches instead of building all the 5 roaches at once and then the Ovi, but I don't know whether this was the issue that led to my failure. The map was scrap station and it took a long time for my roaches to arrive at the terran's base (1 minute at normal/replay time, should be around 40 secs in fast). My brother managed to rally 5 rines, 1 rauder at 6:45 and i think they would have been a problem for my force. Nearly one minute later he had 2 additional hellions and 1 banshee, when I attacked and broke in (which didn't win the game anyway..). Please give me some hints where I can improve, I fear I overlooked something important.. Replay: http://www.filesavr.com/ad3pN4Ng
What is this? I get some jpg file to download. I'm not opening that. Is this spam/virus? Or have you just failed uploading badly?
This is you first post so I'm very skeptical about this.
Please use the host I provided in OP.
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On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH.
I checked this too. It is possible to delay the expansion a bit, which would get you some seconds more. The BO was:
15 pool
16 extr (earlier if you want to morph to banelings earlier)
17 hatch
16 queen
18 warren
17 nest
16 2 pairs of zerglings (may be spawned before nest: 17 zerglings, 18 nest)
18 Ovi
Roach Warren finishes about the same time Ovi finishes
I don't know if it would break the idea of the original build, but if you expand after producing your roaches, then you may save perhaps about half a minute for your units, compared to the original build.
But the original build has an advantage: the early expansion may get the queen use her larvae: If you position your expansion near at the enemy, you could save some time with the roaches if you spawn them there. This depends on the map, but it could save you up to half a minute if you would place half way to the enemy (e.g. on scrap station).
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On August 16 2010 14:26 mjamz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 10:12 gustavo wrote:
I mean I looked at the replay again(third time), and you did the build as advertised I can tell you this:
ITS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO MAKE USE OF THE EARLY HATCH. I checked this too. It is possible to delay the expansion a bit, which would get you some seconds more. The BO was: 15 pool 16 extr (earlier if you want to morph to banelings earlier) 17 hatch 16 queen 18 warren 17 nest 16 2 pairs of zerglings (may be spawned before nest: 17 zerglings, 18 nest) 18 Ovi Roach Warren finishes about the same time Ovi finishes I don't know if it would break the idea of the original build, but if you expand after producing your roaches, then you may save perhaps about half a minute for your units, compared to the original build. But the original build has an advantage: the early expansion may get the queen use her larvae: If you position your expansion near at the enemy, you could save some time with the roaches if you spawn them there. This depends on the map, but it could save you up to half a minute if you would place half way to the enemy (e.g. on scrap station).
I like the BO you typed there and will try it but I do not like placing hatch anywhere else. The bust needs to be at like 6-7min or it will not work. I think the timing cannot be much later then its in my BO or it will fail. I suspect the build you linked will be to late but you never know so Im gonna try it anyway. My original BO its almost the exact same build as dimagas where he goes 4 lings->speed or so 5 roaches and then adds units as it goes. The difference is its delayed a bit (20sec) but you got another hatch. Same eco though. And it has the option to play as a early hatch eco build if you instead of roaches simply go drones. The one base play by dimaga while earlier aggression is not as easy to adapt if you decide to go 2 base eco build as that 2nd hatch will be delayed a bit. But 14 pool 14 gas speedligns into expand is also a common build and it would surely work as a variation on that.
I also watched the replay. You delayed the bust almost 1 minute due to waiting for more roaches and messing up the BO. You cannot do this. You must bust as early as the build allows its already very close as it is regarding timings. delaying it with 1minute is the difference of a siegetank melting your banelings or a banshee getting out. As you noticed in that game. You also microd your roaches poorly, 3-4 of them did nothing for most of the battle after supply depots where down getting stuck when on attack command at marauder. Micro is essential in this it will decide the battle, this is not a a move to victory strategy you must micro well to turn the game in your favor. Look at 6:15-6:30 thats when the bust SHOULD happen. With better micro I do think you could have gotten ahead there, the marauder doesn't need to die first the marines are as beneficial to kill they deal good dps. However with a bunker there I do think the bust would fail. However I find that amount of rax units is not normal as defense when they tech. But maybe I just play terrible terrans.
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You go one base. At 4minutes you have 9drones total and only 6 mining minerals! You build 8 zerglings very early that you use for nothing screwing you eco up totally.
Hrmm, can't remember the replay specifically, but if I had that few drones I must have 8 pooled to start out and he was able to block with the wallin, that can be the only explanation for that sort of drone count. So nevermind, I guess it wasn't similar to your BO. If I didn't 8 pool, I was going for a baneling bust, and either lost drones, or just suck, haha!
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Yes, the terran player didn't go full into a Banshee rush, and instead left some defending units there, could be a good idea, as one early banshee is enough to press the zerg. At this time the terran doesnt even have to micro it.
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EPT
