EPTIm only in a silver league, but Ive won the last 14 of 15 games going for this build. And this happened right after I lost 10 str8 games or so..
I definitely recommend this build to all low level players like me.
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 9
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Sayer
United States403 Posts
Im only in a silver league, but Ive won the last 14 of 15 games going for this build. And this happened right after I lost 10 str8 games or so.. I definitely recommend this build to all low level players like me. | ||
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DJDemon
United States39 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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MarcIsabel
21 Posts
I'm playing Zerg at Silver/Gold level, so a comparatively low level for this forum's standards. Until I read this thread, whenever I played a Terran or Protoss that would wall-off, I'd just try to keep him contained and macro up till I hit Broodlords. That would usually win me the game, although I don't scout enough (should learn to sacrifice Overlords) and would thus sometimes be overrun by my opponent's first wave with Thors or Collossi. I have tried the baneling bust as alternative, but experienced it as a heavy investment with limited success. While I kept playing Zerg, it made for a lot of long (30+ minute games), as I had map control but had to tech up a long way to get the job done. Usually I'd know I'd win halfway, it would just take more time. Then I read this thread. Practiced a few skirmishes to get the timing right, which was difficult at first. Then I played 1v1 league games. I won 8 out of 9. The loss was my own stupid mistake, as I scouted an Airport but didn't tech to spore crawlers or Lair and got Banshee'd. A few specific remarks: - I usually send a scout at 9, earlier on large maps. At 13 (Spawning Pool) I can see whether or not my Terran or Protoss opponent walls of. When he does, I continue the 5 Roach Rush build. When he doesn't, I go 13 Pool 12 Extractor Speedling. I absolutely *love* this early game flexibility, makes Zerg and particularly the scouting activity more interesting. This alone makes the opening post invaluable to me. - My games take a lot shorter than they used to. With this build it's usually 'gg' after 11-12 minutes, unlike 30+. - 5 Roaches is just such an excellent, right number. It blows up the lightest thing blocking the ramp, and then it's speedling go-go-go to the mineral line. Just plain works and is fast enough. - I've had an issue with a Protoss blocking the ramp with two Gateways. Luckily, it was on Blistering Sands so I just blew up the alternate entrance. On another map (e.g. Steppes of War) the right thing to do would be to macro up like I used to I suppose. - Back-teching to Speedlings just is a nasty surprise for some players at my level. I guess they only expect you to tech up, so they go full Stalkers / Marauders once the see my Roaches. Even if I lose some momentum, when he fails to scout my mass Speedlings follow-up (common at my level), he's done for. Once again, many thanks. I'm up to rank 2 Silver and probably headed into Gold soon thanks to this. | ||
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Izzachar
Sweden285 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143155 I discuss various opening here Dude your build is not clean and optimized + Show Spoiler + I don't know. I gave up normal baneling busts for a reason a long time ago. I agree there are many larvae that gets wasted at the nat, maybe 2-3? (note that 1 ling should be built at nat). But there is something about a delayed hatch that doesn't feel as good to me. I dont know where it is where it messes up and doesn't seem to fit. As I said in OP or in later posts I very much want help refining the BO. But going one base and exp at 30 supply is just so different compared to this build I'm not considering it There might be a better timing for the FE and the BO as a whole. But I can't figure it out myself. I tested MANY different approaches. And this one is the best I managed. If I go something like 13 pool, 14 ext 14 hatch. For some reason I can't afford the queen in this BO at all I also do not find room for the 4 lings as easily (which I really want do scout and deny scout) as I do not get the 2 food from hatch until its to late. It is slightly faster then the other BO. Maybe some 5-10sec, it feels like it should be quicker then that but I have to wait for minerals for warren. But without the queen and them extra larvae it feels weird. You can also go smth like (can't remember exactly) 12 pool, 14 ext. drone/ling/queen to about 19. warren when pool pops. Move out after first cycle of larvae with 5 roaches, 4 lings and banelings nest on its way. When you move out you have 300mins and can make expo while attacking. This happens at about ~5:05 so the bust has way more potential. But you do not have your expo up until way later to make static D, gas, use its larvae or make queen for potential air threats and even more larvae. You do have better eco with smth like 16 drones If I remember correctly and the potential to get more at main at next larvae cycle. But you still do not have that FE up in a while. Compare to 13p14e14h at ~5:15 I can't make this work so I get a queen before moving out (I have to build it after roaches and banelings nest) so it means I have less larvae stored at main I can kick start eco with and the BO I suggest at 13h14p14e ~5:25. Has a queen and an OL on its way and when it pops you make a load of drones to get going again. TBH I do not really know what is best under what circumstances =) I have NO IDEA But I know that the BO I suggest works and it does what it is supposed to do while offering a lot of flexibility. For instance I find it awesome to make a few drones after I move out - then IF I see that he has suddenly a marauder/marine ball I have loads of larvae for making lings. I would be concerned about keeping ling production up of one base (having to wait for 2nd hatch to come up seems so risky). Now the above example of suddenly seeing a marine marauder ball means fail scout but if you do scout properly and I see rax heavy play I skip warren and go for more drones this allows me to use both hatches, get queens early at both and ling spam from both of them. Then add baneling nest and you have a ling/bling ball able to handle any kind of rax play. Watch the rax play replays! (some of them has more roach then ideal but some illustrate the flexibility here really nicely) If you have other suggestions or think one of the builds I mentioned above has more potential at the hands of someone with better mechanics then me then go ahead and make replay of how to do it. In short the difference between the builds are 1 base better eco earlier pressure ~20sec 2 base earlier hatch which means quicker to get 2 queens and lair to handle potential air units and tech by opponent if pressure fails more larvae to get economy going faster more larvae to spam lings if you decide to go all in easier to make static D in time you build is a bit different then the one I suggested of one base. But the differences between them is slight eco difference (1 drone?) and your pressure is probably delayed a little bit (5-10sec?). If you do see a good opportunity both builds allow for baneling nest to be put down when roaches are getting made and you can make you first lings into banelings. This allows for much quicker breakdown of the wall which is huge cause it can be the difference of a marauder or 2 getting made or not which will hugely decide you success with this pressure. Or its the difference of some marines killing 1-2 roaches before wall is down and killing no roaches. Or you can save the banes for the worker pull if you are confident that the roaches will bust the wall by themselves. 2 banes in there when workers get pulled could be hilarious, I never done it though. The builds punish greedy tech play by T. But if he goes something like 8 marines or 2-3 marauders before teching you are behind and in a worse position then if you just focused on droning and teching to handle whatever terran decided to own you with this time. Lets say pressure fails, and T goes some cliff drop, you will be behind in regards to dealing with this. I do not think an early pressure build should ever work vs a toss that knows what he is doing (unless he FEs which I guess is almost standard play now but anyway). Pumping sentries just deal with it well enough and he can do whatever he wants, 4 gate in particular is scary here I think. The build I suggested has some weakness. Like very early marine/marauder play. It is troublesome to defend as you put 350mins into an expo that has yet to make any real contribution. I think this build similarly might have weakness. But I think both builds have flexibility to them. You do not need to make the 5 roaches even if you put the roach warren down. You can make speedlings instead and just play it as 14p 14e speed, hatch at like 20-25. Which is standard play vs T. You will have some things delayed cause of the roach warren. But you will also have an easier time transitioning into roaches should T decide he wants to 8-igniter-helion you. I think that both builds could allow for a lot of flexibility the key is as with all Z builds to know when to attack, when to def, when to tech and when to drone. Its important to keep in mind that even if the builds strive for making an early attack its not always the best thing to do. Scouting is important So I definitely think this BO has value. And I've seen dimaga done it, or similar many times. I used my BO to great effect vs ~500 rated terrans. And it works. But the question is does it work cause even 500 rated terrans simply can't play and as soon as someone disrupts their early thor tactic and they then no longer know what to do?. I dont know.... most terrans I play just seem terrible. And the few that seem better I just loose to no matter what I do anyway =) | ||
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Bair
United States698 Posts
On August 22 2010 13:13 Fistdantilus wrote: These replays should be proof enough that you can power very quickly out of this build. They also look like very early games that I played with this build: I'd make some roaches and achieve some success, then back off to power right away. Game 1 especially, that was a 7 minute roflstomp win as he made waaaaay too many zealots. Try trusting the aggressive nature of the build a bit more and see what happens. REGARDING THE 5RR IN ZVZ Don't. =) 13 pool/13 extractor, stop making drones at 14. With your first 6-10 zerglings, poke into the enemy base. If your opponent is skipping straight to roaches, just kill his queen and run out (even if there's a spine crawler). It's a ridiculously easy way to win ZvZ, even though it may take you 10+ more minutes to convert that win. You'll get to lair first as your opponent will need to re-make his queen, which when combined with the larvae setback gives a huge edge no matter what tech path you take. Be more agressive? So not used to that... should I have just done what I could with roaches or reinforced with lings for the win? As for ZvZ I think it could be better if you just built lings until the scout was dead, be it a drone or an ovie, so you have 4-8. That plus a queen should be plenty until your roaches pop. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
I still think this will be the most effective vs hard teching terrans, especially if they are planning on switch addons for hellions. | ||
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JrK
United States283 Posts
I want to reiterate one point you did make... don't let you roaches get surrounded by workers. I know it's a common sense thing, but everyone gets caught up every now and then.... and that absolutely lost me a game that I should have won. | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
For anyone who watched the IEM finals, + Show Spoiler + How would this have worked against Morrow's totally-abuse-Zerg's-inability-to-scout build (on Steppes)? He did go for marauders, but was hiding them. I'm just curious what Morrow would have had at the point when 5 roaches showed up at his ramp, although I'm not sure if anyone's done this build enough to know the timings that well. It would have at least allowed the Zerg to see Morrow's tech, so as long as the game is still playable in that scenario I think I'm going to do this build a lot more often. | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
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Bair
United States698 Posts
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 22 2010 21:16 Bair wrote: Be more agressive? So not used to that... should I have just done what I could with roaches or reinforced with lings for the win? You basically have to commit to 1 round of lings semi-blind. Scout the ramp with your first two as your roaches are walking (I'm super bad at this) Then the second round of lings only if it looks promising, otherwise build drones. On August 22 2010 21:16 Bair wrote: As for ZvZ I think it could be better if you just built lings until the scout was dead, be it a drone or an ovie, so you have 4-8. That plus a queen should be plenty until your roaches pop. Yes, this would make the build "work" for ZvZ. I won't go into all the nuances of ZvZ; suffice to say that I think while roach openings avoid the baneling phase of the game, they don't lead to any particular advantage. | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
But overall i think the 15gas / 14 pool / speedlings / 2nd queen / 2nd hatch is better. It's defensive potential is equal or even greater because of the extra creep by the 2nd queen. It gets mutas a little bit earlier and you have 2 extra gas because of the earlier expansion. It should be able to deal with any kind of rax-tech lab opening better, which we will probably see more in the future after the iem finals. If the added aggressivity is worth this? I think every player must evaluate for himself. Other thoughts? | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
I also watched the replay against whiplash. Though nobody is perfect, it shows nicely how speedlings can take out a same size protoss army. His mistake there was probably not using force fields to survive it(can´t remember if he had enough sentries with him). Anyway was a pleasant watch. By the way, because of this thread I specifically tested zealots vs roaches a bit. Attackwalking is a must with roaches attack cooldown of 2 and zealots attacking about twice as fast. It´s a complete turn around from "zealots win, not even close" to "not even close, the other way around". I genuinely didn´t know that before. [edit] I am intrigued by the earlier mentioned possibility to instantly switch to 1 base muta like in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145712 Right now it is similar. Can one make both identical up till the point of 5 Roach production, so you can capitalize on their weak spot in air defense or ground defense? In ZvT it should be very possible since Roach>Marines and Muta>Marauder. Protoss can defend both with Sentry/Stalker though. [multiedit] It would be nice if BOs like this could weed out crap terrans in higher leagues. I think they get placed high cause many people have a mental block against T(imba mmm etc.) and don´t know how to effectively pressure early vs. T. It gives all Ts a bad name, that´s also why I switched to random [/multiedit](I should probably just double post) [/edit] | ||
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
You doing little bit good transition in speedlings if your first timing attack works very good. seems like an all-in. But... who teh f*ck cares? Its actually not all-in. Its a BO like very other BO. You can transition into more pressure or macro mode. Why is this as zerg not allowed? Protoss does this crap ALL THE TIME, these all-in BOs with gimping eco. And im really sick of doing defense mode all the time to all these agressive BOs of T&P and then to see that i cant hold it 100% and then to lose because the timing pushes are so stupid easy to execute and hardcore mode to defend actually. Whats wrong in doing pressure at the beginning as Zerg and then transition into macro mode or more pressure? Why the Fuck did we get a Queen in SC2 and Roaches? I remember that Blizzard once said, Zerg gets Roaches just because so they have something they can do *Pressure* with in the early Game! That was in Beta around April i guess. Its nice to defend vs reapers in early with this Build and Terran is really fucked after this and forced into Maraus. While you exand and go Mutas. Vs. Protoss you gain the Time you need to expand without problems while doing good DMG maybe to the Protoss or denying his expo in early. Whats wrong with this Playstyle? Imho Most Zergs are to MUCH into Macro Playstyle, maybe it is the only way to play in pro gaming levels... but 90% here arent pro gamers at all, so...? ps: im platinum on my way to diamond actually. so i play diamond and platinum people. the build works. actually, my 1 base Muta into expo vs. Terran works also very good, but i like this one here little bit more. greets | ||
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Ragnar4
United States64 Posts
Thank you Fist. Also, I've begun to refer to this opening as the "Fist opening" as in "I'm opening with The Fist" or "I just fisted my opponent to death" or "I'm fisting him right now." I've fisted 5 terran, 2 protoss, and 2 zerg to this point, and I've won all of my games. I love fisting other people. Has a good ring to it. Lol. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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carrion
United Kingdom87 Posts
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Shakes
Australia557 Posts
Unfortunately at the lower levels I'm finding it not quite as effective in practice as on paper because it's a bit too meta for your opponent, especially vs terran. I couldn't force marauders in any of my games. Instead you break their wall but the roaches can't kill all the marines and the lings dripping in can't quite come fast enough to stop the wall eventually going back up. So my advice for lower level players is if you see lots of marines build a second round of roaches before attacking and it's probably GG right there. Against protoss at lower levels it's auto-win against anyone not doing cannon wall offs though, I love it. Against mass cannons in retrospect I probably wouldn't even make my round of roaches and just expand rather than try to force the issue (ended badly both times I tried, I was trying to end the game before the void ray cheese that mass cannons usually spells). I gave it a try against Zerg since people say it can work, but my experience is everyone at the lower levels pools really early and by the time you get roaches they'll have enough lings to surround and kill them. Probably not news to any good players, but thought it may be useful to lower level players working their way up. @Umpteen: great post, all too familiar, my favourite was when I made the extractor but forgot to put anyone in it until it was time to make roaches. Delayed zerglings with no speed are imba ... | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
Still, it's so nice to have another option besides the safe fast zergling speed. | ||
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