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Hey guys,
At the time of my posting this I have approximately 700 (edit: 902 now) points on ladder as a Zerg player. That puts me inside the top 2k players on SC2 Ranks. Far from the top, but well inside what I consider the upper-mid tier of SC2 players. If nothing else, it means that that vast majority of people who frequent the strategy section here of late, should at least consider what I have to offer.
The amount of QQ in the community over ZvT is overwhelming these days. I'm not about to suggest that Z doesn't need some love (our early game is pathetic) but I also don't feel that this "imbalance" is as terrible as so many people want to make it seem. Additionally, I definitely don't feel that the imbalance is significant enough to be felt at lower tiers of play. In other words, Bronze through Sub 1k Diamond players should still be able to win ZvT.
Since release - or even since Beta - Zerg has been touted as this purely reactive race. Expand, drone up, and react to what you see. Yes, this is a very strong, legitimate way to play Zerg. I don't feel, however, that it's the only way to play Zerg.
Much of the QQ over ZvT these days is, in my opinion, the result of Zerg always allowing the Terran player to have the initiative. If we never act, unless in response to the Terran player, we are, in essence, allowing him to pick our moves for us. Only by changing our play-style, can we reverse this trend, and instead dictate the moves of the Terran player. I believe that using one base muta builds against Terran is one way to give some initiative back to the Zerg player.
The Build:
14 Gas
15 Pool
Do not get speed
When the pool finishes:
Queen
Roach Warren - make sure T sees this, or at least position it so that it will get scanned. This is to deter a big commitment to early marines, or an overcommitment from T to early harass. Incidentally, it will also encourage Marauder use - not the the best anti-air unit.
2nd Gas
2 lings (one larvae worth) - this is to chase off the scout, and to maintain some presence on the map so that you know if T is doing something silly
Hide your 2nd or 3rd overlord somewhere in your base, away from your main creep
As soon as the Queen pops, start your Lair
Continue to drone - We're building zero combat units
Build 1-2 spine crawlers in your mineral line - this is for cute harass plays like reapers or hellions. You can defend with your queen and 1-2 spines. If you feel really nervous, you can also build up to 3 roaches.
As soon as your lair finishes, build your spire underneath your hidden overlord. We're hiding our tech. This is not a foreign concept in strategy games.
Drone to approximately 31-32 supply and stop. Make sure you have ample supply for 5-7 mutas.
When Lair finishes, immediately spawn as many mutas as you can afford.
While harassing, expand, and begin massing roaches. You can also start Hive tech - we're aiming for Broodlords if the game goes that long.
Replays:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2342 - vs. Rine/Marauder/Tank push
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2306 - vs. Early Hellion harass
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2247 - vs. Early Tank/Marine push
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2270 - vs. Early Thor
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403 - vs. Mass Reaper
This has become my go-to build vs. T on ladder. I encourage all of you guys to try it. It's not as all-in as it may seem, as the mutas come early enough to give you ample map control for expanding, should your harass be warded off.
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1 base muta
Is this build very similar?
I agree that there is some unexplored potential in one base zerg play, and rather than just go for fast expand or all in zerg 1 base, just do a good 1 base start, than go for a expansion when you can.
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this is terrible and gimmicky, u don't even use the warren and no good terran is going to be scared ny this
this is basically a bad muta rush, very all in
you should replace the warren with ling speed so you cam defend reapers or marauderz while you fast tech
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This could be a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game.
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On August 20 2010 09:09 Pandain wrote:1 base mutaIs this build very similar? I agree that there is some unexplored potential in one base zerg play, and rather than just go for fast expand or all in zerg 1 base, just do a good 1 base start, than go for a expansion when you can.
It's similar. If you get your 2nd gas when you start your lair, you will only be able to afford 4-5 mutas, vs. 5-7 mutas.
Furthermore, any Terran player who sees a Zerg base mutating a Lair, with nothing but a Pool and 2 gas is going to instantly assume mutas. By having the Roach Warren in place, we're making the T player guess a little, while also having the option of falling back to a few roaches if T gets aggressive.
Also different is the expansion timing. The build you posted is expoing a little bit earlier.
That said, they are very similar...
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I have tried this build extensively and have decided it is very much a pure defensive build that has underwhelming results.
1) 1 base z vs 1 base t, z is naturally behind in econ due to t's mules
2) Resource per Resource, t's army beats z's.
3) It would be obvious that mutas are coming, since fast lair and no aggression at all means only mutas. Therefore muta's wont do any damage.
4) Once you get map control, you will only try to expand, which you would of had anyways if u didn't 1 base muta.
The only thing that this build provides is a bit more safety vs early game aggression from t.
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Scanning a 2 gas Zerg with no expansion is just screaming Muta.
I do a similar build to this often but its too easy to scout, by the time you get to the terran base with muta they have turrets and usually the armory just finished.
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On August 20 2010 09:14 mOnion wrote:
this is terrible and gimmicky, u don't even use the warren and no good terran is going to be scared ny this
this is basically a bad muta rush, very all in
you should replace the warren with ling speed so you cam defend reapers or marauderz while you fast tech
You transition out of muta, into roach almost immediately. Its also there to fall back on if T sends more hellions/reapers than you're comfortable with early on.
On August 20 2010 09:15 Alsn wrote:
This is a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game.
The first replay in the OP is vs. a marine/marauder push that leaves T base at 7:30. The third one is against a Tank/Marine push that pushes out around the same time.
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if the terran goes for the 6-7 reaper all in you insta lose.=( you still have to scout and play reactive and even scrap the strat if you see somthing scary.
imho 1 base muta gets shut down way to ez for it to be viable. i love incorperating mutas into my army but just dont like rushing strait to them for the dmg.
day 9 explains that mutas kinda have a U in thier effectiveness, whereas they are super effective really early one when the opponant hasnt fully prepared then they arnt usefull really and lose thier effect then as mid game goes on they get more and more effective again cuz you can switch so fast.
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On August 20 2010 09:22 charlie420247 wrote:
if the terran goes for the 6-7 reaper all in you insta lose.=( you still have to scout and play reactive and even scrap the strat if you see somthing scary.
If you fail to scout any all-in play, its insta-lose.
On August 20 2010 09:20 Phrost wrote:
Scanning a 2 gas Zerg with no expansion is just screaming Muta.
I do a similar build to this often but its too easy to scout, by the time you get to the terran base with muta they have turrets and usually the armory just finished.
I don't disagree with this, but until they spot the spire, its never a sure thing. The timing is such that you have 5-7 mutas in T's base around the time of his first Thor, but only if T is rushing straight to Thor. That's a winnable fight for the Zerg player. (As is demonstrated in one of the replays)
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its actually not true that you insta lose vs any unscouted all in your just spouting bullshit ^^
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baneling bust is all in and your not gonna lose to it nessesarily if you dont scout it. hahhaha
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I find going 1 hatch muta feels pretty weak unless I can buy enough time with the mutas to expand, but usually the Terran player can respond fast enough with lots of marines and possibly vikings or the Thor. Two hatch muta is where it's at.
Although not something you can do 100% of the time, I do agree with you on the fact that mutas are quite dominating when used correctly. A lot of Terran players ever expect mutas anymore as they simply think a thor will quell incoming muta production from the Zerg.
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I first have to say that I am most definitely not a high tier player, just someone trying to pick up the game, but in the ladder games I've played I've actually was using this general strategy by accident.
Since most people tend to think zerg is a reactionary race (it may quite well be), what I do in ZvT is sacrifice my FE for early map control. If I rush roaches then this is easily possible, but in this my main strategy the goal is not allowing the terran player to expand whatsoever. Once I successfully contain the terran, then I can expand without as much worry of harassment since I did the first push of the game. From there, I can macro my way to victory. Its most certainly not one base muta, but may be a little less all-in because I have my macro advantage to fall back on.
Question though, while one base rushing mutas in ZvP might not be viable due to 2gates, with this variant work? (early roaches into expand into mutas.)
MrBitter, you say that the whole point of the roach warren is to force the opposing player into countering the roaches (tanks/marauders), then slamming that with mutas, couldn't this very philosophy be applied to protoss play (immortals/colos?)
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One thing I want to stress is that the idea behind this build isn't to pull some cheesey win out of nowhere by killing T with hidden mutas.
Its to force the Terran player to play on your terms. The muta are out fast enough that any early push he has planned is going to have to either come home and defend, or die in the middle of the field to the mutas.
Then he has to deal with harass, while you get to expand and tech switch.
All of a sudden, we're not the ones being forced to play reactively.
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On August 20 2010 09:49 Zvendetta wrote:Question though, while one base rushing mutas in ZvP might not be viable due to 2gates, with this variant work? (early roaches into expand into mutas.)
MrBitter, you say that the whole point of the roach warren is to force the opposing player into countering the roaches (tanks/marauders), then slamming that with mutas, couldn't this very philosophy be applied to protoss play (immortals/colos?)
Toss is going to counter Roaches with Stalkers, which can be troublesome for muta.
In that same vein, though, I often like showing Roaches to a Toss player, only to turn around and smash his front with 24+ speedlings.
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On August 20 2010 09:21 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 09:14 mOnion wrote:
this is terrible and gimmicky, u don't even use the warren and no good terran is going to be scared ny this
this is basically a bad muta rush, very all in
you should replace the warren with ling speed so you cam defend reapers or marauderz while you fast tech You transition out of muta, into roach almost immediately. Its also there to fall back on if T sends more hellions/reapers than you're comfortable with early on. Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 09:15 Alsn wrote:
This is a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game. The first replay in the OP is vs. a marine/marauder push that leaves T base at 7:30. The third one is against a Tank/Marine push that pushes out around the same time. Watched the replay, and sorry, it proves absolutely nothing. The terran moves out at 7:45 after doing 1 rax 1 fac getting tanks. The timing attack I'm talking about hits your base at somewhere around 7-7½ minutes producing marauders and marines off of 2-3 rax. It's a common response to 1base roach not to mention it easily punishes your early spire if it hits early enough(which it can.
Oh and the terran had 40 apm. I'm usually not one to care about things like that, but no experienced player has 40 apm, it's just not possible.
Like I tried to say in my first post, it's definitely a very powerful option to punish certain FE or quick tech harass builds, but you absolutely have to have some other plan for any kind of early push.
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i'm going to respectfully disagree with the OP. this is very much all in (in a passive way rather than the all-in offensive attacks that "all in" is normally associated with). you're basically relying on the Terran to do nothing until mutas come out. that is unrealistic in most games. also, you are expecting them to have no anti air. their first t1 unit is anti air. i know you mentioned the roach warren to trick them and all, but i feel this is all way too optimistic thinking. chances are, you will get hit and/or your mutas will face opposition at Terran's base. and then you will get shut down with one attack group going to your main. i have no doubt that your plan will work on some games, but in the majority of games, against a decent Terran player, this will not work.
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The only push your mutas will kill in the middle of the map is one that has no marines. Like... Zero. If they are pure tank/marauder then yeah, you are going to win, but from what I have seen most terrans see that lair and don't think "Glial Reconstitution roaches!'. They just think "Hmm, either roaches or mutas. May as well make a few marines and marauders and win."
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I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374
I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
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EPT
