At the time of my posting this I have approximately 700 (edit: 902 now) points on ladder as a Zerg player. That puts me inside the top 2k players on SC2 Ranks. Far from the top, but well inside what I consider the upper-mid tier of SC2 players. If nothing else, it means that that vast majority of people who frequent the strategy section here of late, should at least consider what I have to offer.
The amount of QQ in the community over ZvT is overwhelming these days. I'm not about to suggest that Z doesn't need some love (our early game is pathetic) but I also don't feel that this "imbalance" is as terrible as so many people want to make it seem. Additionally, I definitely don't feel that the imbalance is significant enough to be felt at lower tiers of play. In other words, Bronze through Sub 1k Diamond players should still be able to win ZvT.
Since release - or even since Beta - Zerg has been touted as this purely reactive race. Expand, drone up, and react to what you see. Yes, this is a very strong, legitimate way to play Zerg. I don't feel, however, that it's the only way to play Zerg.
Much of the QQ over ZvT these days is, in my opinion, the result of Zerg always allowing the Terran player to have the initiative. If we never act, unless in response to the Terran player, we are, in essence, allowing him to pick our moves for us. Only by changing our play-style, can we reverse this trend, and instead dictate the moves of the Terran player. I believe that using one base muta builds against Terran is one way to give some initiative back to the Zerg player.
The Build: 14 Gas 15 Pool Do not get speed
When the pool finishes: Queen
Roach Warren - make sure T sees this, or at least position it so that it will get scanned. This is to deter a big commitment to early marines, or an overcommitment from T to early harass. Incidentally, it will also encourage Marauder use - not the the best anti-air unit.
2nd Gas
2 lings (one larvae worth) - this is to chase off the scout, and to maintain some presence on the map so that you know if T is doing something silly
Hide your 2nd or 3rd overlord somewhere in your base, away from your main creep
As soon as the Queen pops, start your Lair Continue to drone - We're building zero combat units
Build 1-2 spine crawlers in your mineral line - this is for cute harass plays like reapers or hellions. You can defend with your queen and 1-2 spines. If you feel really nervous, you can also build up to 3 roaches.
As soon as your lair finishes, build your spire underneath your hidden overlord. We're hiding our tech. This is not a foreign concept in strategy games.
Drone to approximately 31-32 supply and stop. Make sure you have ample supply for 5-7 mutas.
When Lair finishes, immediately spawn as many mutas as you can afford.
While harassing, expand, and begin massing roaches. You can also start Hive tech - we're aiming for Broodlords if the game goes that long.
This has become my go-to build vs. T on ladder. I encourage all of you guys to try it. It's not as all-in as it may seem, as the mutas come early enough to give you ample map control for expanding, should your harass be warded off.
Is this build very similar? I agree that there is some unexplored potential in one base zerg play, and rather than just go for fast expand or all in zerg 1 base, just do a good 1 base start, than go for a expansion when you can.
This could be a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game.
On August 20 2010 09:09 Pandain wrote: 1 base muta
Is this build very similar? I agree that there is some unexplored potential in one base zerg play, and rather than just go for fast expand or all in zerg 1 base, just do a good 1 base start, than go for a expansion when you can.
It's similar. If you get your 2nd gas when you start your lair, you will only be able to afford 4-5 mutas, vs. 5-7 mutas.
Furthermore, any Terran player who sees a Zerg base mutating a Lair, with nothing but a Pool and 2 gas is going to instantly assume mutas. By having the Roach Warren in place, we're making the T player guess a little, while also having the option of falling back to a few roaches if T gets aggressive.
Also different is the expansion timing. The build you posted is expoing a little bit earlier.
I have tried this build extensively and have decided it is very much a pure defensive build that has underwhelming results.
1) 1 base z vs 1 base t, z is naturally behind in econ due to t's mules 2) Resource per Resource, t's army beats z's. 3) It would be obvious that mutas are coming, since fast lair and no aggression at all means only mutas. Therefore muta's wont do any damage. 4) Once you get map control, you will only try to expand, which you would of had anyways if u didn't 1 base muta.
The only thing that this build provides is a bit more safety vs early game aggression from t.
Scanning a 2 gas Zerg with no expansion is just screaming Muta.
I do a similar build to this often but its too easy to scout, by the time you get to the terran base with muta they have turrets and usually the armory just finished.
On August 20 2010 09:14 mOnion wrote: this is terrible and gimmicky, u don't even use the warren and no good terran is going to be scared ny this
this is basically a bad muta rush, very all in
you should replace the warren with ling speed so you cam defend reapers or marauderz while you fast tech
You transition out of muta, into roach almost immediately. Its also there to fall back on if T sends more hellions/reapers than you're comfortable with early on.
On August 20 2010 09:15 Alsn wrote: This is a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game.
The first replay in the OP is vs. a marine/marauder push that leaves T base at 7:30. The third one is against a Tank/Marine push that pushes out around the same time.
if the terran goes for the 6-7 reaper all in you insta lose.=( you still have to scout and play reactive and even scrap the strat if you see somthing scary.
imho 1 base muta gets shut down way to ez for it to be viable. i love incorperating mutas into my army but just dont like rushing strait to them for the dmg.
day 9 explains that mutas kinda have a U in thier effectiveness, whereas they are super effective really early one when the opponant hasnt fully prepared then they arnt usefull really and lose thier effect then as mid game goes on they get more and more effective again cuz you can switch so fast.
On August 20 2010 09:22 charlie420247 wrote: if the terran goes for the 6-7 reaper all in you insta lose.=( you still have to scout and play reactive and even scrap the strat if you see somthing scary.
If you fail to scout any all-in play, its insta-lose.
On August 20 2010 09:20 Phrost wrote: Scanning a 2 gas Zerg with no expansion is just screaming Muta.
I do a similar build to this often but its too easy to scout, by the time you get to the terran base with muta they have turrets and usually the armory just finished.
I don't disagree with this, but until they spot the spire, its never a sure thing. The timing is such that you have 5-7 mutas in T's base around the time of his first Thor, but only if T is rushing straight to Thor. That's a winnable fight for the Zerg player. (As is demonstrated in one of the replays)
I find going 1 hatch muta feels pretty weak unless I can buy enough time with the mutas to expand, but usually the Terran player can respond fast enough with lots of marines and possibly vikings or the Thor. Two hatch muta is where it's at.
Although not something you can do 100% of the time, I do agree with you on the fact that mutas are quite dominating when used correctly. A lot of Terran players ever expect mutas anymore as they simply think a thor will quell incoming muta production from the Zerg.
I first have to say that I am most definitely not a high tier player, just someone trying to pick up the game, but in the ladder games I've played I've actually was using this general strategy by accident.
Since most people tend to think zerg is a reactionary race (it may quite well be), what I do in ZvT is sacrifice my FE for early map control. If I rush roaches then this is easily possible, but in this my main strategy the goal is not allowing the terran player to expand whatsoever. Once I successfully contain the terran, then I can expand without as much worry of harassment since I did the first push of the game. From there, I can macro my way to victory. Its most certainly not one base muta, but may be a little less all-in because I have my macro advantage to fall back on.
Question though, while one base rushing mutas in ZvP might not be viable due to 2gates, with this variant work? (early roaches into expand into mutas.) MrBitter, you say that the whole point of the roach warren is to force the opposing player into countering the roaches (tanks/marauders), then slamming that with mutas, couldn't this very philosophy be applied to protoss play (immortals/colos?)
One thing I want to stress is that the idea behind this build isn't to pull some cheesey win out of nowhere by killing T with hidden mutas.
Its to force the Terran player to play on your terms. The muta are out fast enough that any early push he has planned is going to have to either come home and defend, or die in the middle of the field to the mutas.
Then he has to deal with harass, while you get to expand and tech switch.
All of a sudden, we're not the ones being forced to play reactively.
On August 20 2010 09:49 Zvendetta wrote:Question though, while one base rushing mutas in ZvP might not be viable due to 2gates, with this variant work? (early roaches into expand into mutas.) MrBitter, you say that the whole point of the roach warren is to force the opposing player into countering the roaches (tanks/marauders), then slamming that with mutas, couldn't this very philosophy be applied to protoss play (immortals/colos?)
Toss is going to counter Roaches with Stalkers, which can be troublesome for muta.
In that same vein, though, I often like showing Roaches to a Toss player, only to turn around and smash his front with 24+ speedlings.
On August 20 2010 09:14 mOnion wrote: this is terrible and gimmicky, u don't even use the warren and no good terran is going to be scared ny this
this is basically a bad muta rush, very all in
you should replace the warren with ling speed so you cam defend reapers or marauderz while you fast tech
You transition out of muta, into roach almost immediately. Its also there to fall back on if T sends more hellions/reapers than you're comfortable with early on.
On August 20 2010 09:15 Alsn wrote: This is a very powerful build if you can pull it off, but it does have some very glaring problems. Mainly the fact that any kind of serious attack from the terran before spire is done can be absolutely devastating. Of course, you can build roaches, especially since you mentioned getting that early roach warren, but you are still quite vulnerable to a heavy marine/marauder push that hits somewhere around 7-7½ minutes(just before your spire pops). I would advise having some kind of contingency plan other than "oh shit, time to build roaches" since even just a few marauders heavily punishes roaching early game.
The first replay in the OP is vs. a marine/marauder push that leaves T base at 7:30. The third one is against a Tank/Marine push that pushes out around the same time.
Watched the replay, and sorry, it proves absolutely nothing. The terran moves out at 7:45 after doing 1 rax 1 fac getting tanks. The timing attack I'm talking about hits your base at somewhere around 7-7½ minutes producing marauders and marines off of 2-3 rax. It's a common response to 1base roach not to mention it easily punishes your early spire if it hits early enough(which it can.
Oh and the terran had 40 apm. I'm usually not one to care about things like that, but no experienced player has 40 apm, it's just not possible.
Like I tried to say in my first post, it's definitely a very powerful option to punish certain FE or quick tech harass builds, but you absolutely have to have some other plan for any kind of early push.
i'm going to respectfully disagree with the OP. this is very much all in (in a passive way rather than the all-in offensive attacks that "all in" is normally associated with). you're basically relying on the Terran to do nothing until mutas come out. that is unrealistic in most games. also, you are expecting them to have no anti air. their first t1 unit is anti air. i know you mentioned the roach warren to trick them and all, but i feel this is all way too optimistic thinking. chances are, you will get hit and/or your mutas will face opposition at Terran's base. and then you will get shut down with one attack group going to your main. i have no doubt that your plan will work on some games, but in the majority of games, against a decent Terran player, this will not work.
The only push your mutas will kill in the middle of the map is one that has no marines. Like... Zero. If they are pure tank/marauder then yeah, you are going to win, but from what I have seen most terrans see that lair and don't think "Glial Reconstitution roaches!'. They just think "Hmm, either roaches or mutas. May as well make a few marines and marauders and win."
I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
On August 20 2010 23:35 s[O]rry wrote: The only push your mutas will kill in the middle of the map is one that has no marines. Like... Zero. If they are pure tank/marauder then yeah, you are going to win, but from what I have seen most terrans see that lair and don't think "Glial Reconstitution roaches!'. They just think "Hmm, either roaches or mutas. May as well make a few marines and marauders and win."
This is incorrect. Mutas will kill and equal number of marines with 0-1 losses every time. Unless T is doing a straight up pure marine build, your mutas will be able to kill off what units he has that shoot up. The exception to this would be a T player who gets 5+ marines and a fast Thor. In this case, this build definitely struggles.
On August 20 2010 23:33 DarkSeerTurbo wrote: i'm going to respectfully disagree with the OP. this is very much all in (in a passive way rather than the all-in offensive attacks that "all in" is normally associated with). you're basically relying on the Terran to do nothing until mutas come out. that is unrealistic in most games. also, you are expecting them to have no anti air. their first t1 unit is anti air. i know you mentioned the roach warren to trick them and all, but i feel this is all way too optimistic thinking. chances are, you will get hit and/or your mutas will face opposition at Terran's base. and then you will get shut down with one attack group going to your main. i have no doubt that your plan will work on some games, but in the majority of games, against a decent Terran player, this will not work.
The overwhelming majority of popular T builds these days rely on some sort of early aggression. Be it Marine/Tank, Marine/Marauder, Early Banshees, Reaper plays, Early Hellions... This build specifically counters that style of play. Think of it like a mutalisk timing attack.
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
If it looks so obvious that you are going to be teching muta, why not tech hydras (+drop tech) instead? The start is the same, and the gas cost of hydras is a bit cheaper, so you can afford to get ol speed and drop tech. Also, if they expect muta/roach, then they probably won't make many siege tanks, and those are the main drawback to hydras in zvt.
Side note: Overlords are armored, so a drop is relatively safe, even if they do have thors.
On August 21 2010 04:53 Roconar wrote: If it looks so obvious that you are going to be teching muta, why not tech hydras (+drop tech) instead? The start is the same, and the gas cost of hydras is a bit cheaper, so you can afford to get ol speed and drop tech. Also, if they expect muta/roach, then they probably won't make many siege tanks, and those are the main drawback to hydras in zvt.
Side note: Overlords are armored, so a drop is relatively safe, even if they do have thors.
o.O
Because you can't start to research drop until lair. You need speed as well and you're on one hatch. Mutas are infinitely better harass than hydras.
Your post doesn't seem relevant to this thread at all...
How much does getting speed delay this build? It seems that after your queen finishes if you still have drones on gas you could immediately start lair and still have speed if you need it? Just curious.
I understand the threat of roaches forces some response from Terran but if he pokes you just a bit, with roaches you will be delaying your mutas a good bit whereas lings plus those crawlers will, in my opinion, still let u get your mutas out in the numbers you have.
Two things that I would say about a build like this are 1. you will need excellent scouting to be able to react to T early pushes and 2. it might be interesting to show banelings instead of roaches to make the Terran worry about a 1 base all in baneling bust.
Also, to those who cry all in. Sen has done a similar but safer build for a while. I would shy away from the absolute need to hide all tech or trick your opponent because a good player will still react well, but I like the idea behind this build.
Finally, if you use your mutas well, spending all gas on them and then expanding, you could use the time to double expand.
This build takes a lot of practice. First few times I tried it I sucked balls and was steamrolled. Once you get better at micro, and don't run away like a pussy at the first sight of a thor, you'll find it to be very good.
On August 21 2010 06:16 Chex wrote: How much does getting speed delay this build? It seems that after your queen finishes if you still have drones on gas you could immediately start lair and still have speed if you need it? Just curious.
I understand the threat of roaches forces some response from Terran but if he pokes you just a bit, with roaches you will be delaying your mutas a good bit whereas lings plus those crawlers will, in my opinion, still let u get your mutas out in the numbers you have.
Two things that I would say about a build like this are 1. you will need excellent scouting to be able to react to T early pushes and 2. it might be interesting to show banelings instead of roaches to make the Terran worry about a 1 base all in baneling bust.
Also, to those who cry all in. Sen has done a similar but safer build for a while. I would shy away from the absolute need to hide all tech or trick your opponent because a good player will still react well, but I like the idea behind this build.
Finally, if you use your mutas well, spending all gas on them and then expanding, you could use the time to double expand.
Good post =)
Speed doesn't slow the build down, it just means 1 less muta when your spire finishes.
Blings might be a worthwhile trick to try. I use the Roach Warren because it doesn't cost any gas.
I have double expod off this build before with success. Just taking one expo allows you to keep up some pressure with roaches, though, and I think I prefer that style.
Edit: Also in response to speed - The build is cutting units unless they're absolutely necessary. Making 2-3 roaches in this case, is a lot safer than trying to defend with 4-6 zerglings. Speed or not...
I used the sen variant of this build and it seems that it is an instant loss vs every single early bio push. Your mutas cannot stop marines effectively and marauders takes ages to kill. And since you have no zergling speed hellion harass will be a pain because mutas are not fast enough at killing them. The helios are too fast and will do too much damage before you can kill them.
I think 2 base muta is muchbetter because you actually have enough gas to pump mutas. Open speedling into expand and go roaches for the helios and reapers. Take 4 geysers while teching lair and make mutas. I thinK that build is much safer. Just my 2c
On August 21 2010 09:11 Brutus wrote: I used the sen variant of this build and it seems that it is an instant loss vs every single early bio push. Your mutas cannot stop marines effectively and marauders takes ages to kill. And since you have no zergling speed hellion harass will be a pain because mutas are not fast enough at killing them. The helios are too fast and will do too much damage before you can kill them.
I think 2 base muta is muchbetter because you actually have enough gas to pump mutas. Open speedling into expand and go roaches for the helios and reapers. Take 4 geysers while teching lair and make mutas. I thinK that build is much safer. Just my 2c
Hellion harass will have to deal with spines, queen and roaches (if you feel the need) back home.
A crazy marine all-in would pump out more marines than your mutas can handle, but against equal numbers, mutas dominate marines. The vast majority of T builds these days don't get more than 5-7 marines in time for this build's muta harass.
If they build more than that - don't engage the marines. That's why its called harass. As long as you don't suicide your units, you have map control and can expand freely.
Virtually every "this would never work" scenario that keeps coming up here is covered in replays. Go watch a few of them.
If you're going to cheese, do it off of something stupid aggressive like 10 pool 9 gas. It doesn't matter how many mutas you have out, it matters when.
This doesnt work once u get higher pts. Im close to 900pts now and ive been beating T with a modified sen build. (1base sling into 5+muta into exp+2 preemptive infestors vs marines into late game tech) However, some pushes (the one that comes right before or after u started to saturate ur natural) own my ass.. Sure, i can deal with marine/thor push once i have bling and infestors, but add a couple of tanks (2-3siege tanks+20marine+maybe a thor or 2) and I cant stop them before ultra comes nd safe the day.. Havent really tried massing the mutas since i only use 5 or so for map controll and havent really tried massing roaches (which is probably prertty good with speed). But even if i stopped the push, a good terrans will start building CC the moment ur muta fly out due to 2 pre emptive turrets+15marines. Once u have 2 base he'll be on 2 aswell. If he stays passive u win, if he moves out before ulta's pop and ur on 3 base gas u lose. (again, havent tried going mass roach yet, which doesnt seem to bad if he goes mass marine with fewer tank/thor support)
On August 21 2010 11:42 ruiyang wrote: This doesnt work once u get higher pts. Im close to 900pts now and ive been beating T with a modified sen build. (1base sling into 5+muta into exp+2 preemptive infestors vs marines into late game tech) However, some pushes (the one that comes right before or after u started to saturate ur natural) own my ass.. Sure, i can deal with marine/thor push once i have bling and infestors, but add a couple of tanks (2-3siege tanks+20marine+maybe a thor or 2) and I cant stop them before ultra comes nd safe the day.. Havent really tried massing the mutas since i only use 5 or so for map controll and havent really tried massing roaches (which is probably prertty good with speed). But even if i stopped the push, a good terrans will start building CC the moment ur muta fly out due to 2 pre emptive turrets+15marines. Once u have 2 base he'll be on 2 aswell. If he stays passive u win, if he moves out before ulta's pop and ur on 3 base gas u lose. (again, havent tried going mass roach yet, which doesnt seem to bad if he goes mass marine with fewer tank/thor support)
But this isn't a Sen build. Its straight muta expand that takes advantage of most (not all) Terran one base plays.
I'm between 750-800 right now, and am winning with this build left and right. Maybe it'll get harder in 100 more points. We'll see.
I didnt see the replay yet as im on my iphone. But basing on your first post and w/o watching thereplays, i think we are both talking about the same build as we get our mutas out pretty much same time and both expand right before or during the time we get our mutas. 14gas, 14pool, pool finish i start queen and upgr speed (exactly 100gas), queens pops start lair (again exactly 100gas), take gas nr2 right away and start placing overlord for spire. Only diff is that you build a roach warren so he might get confused with making units (which is a pretty good idea) Sorry if i misunderstood and I'm talking bout 2 completely diff builds. I'll def try out ur build tmrw and watch the replays cus in my experience, the mass tank/marine timing push demolishes me cus good T spams marines +1-2 thor support with mass siege tanks v Z (no super early push but after he secured nd saturated his 2nd base right after me)
Mass reaper openings are very common and this build is going to get shit on. Mass reaper is not an all in- there is no way to stop mass reapers without a large counter army because of their building damage and the potential for a marauder followup if you spam roaches.
On August 21 2010 12:15 sikyon wrote: Mass reaper openings are very common and this build is going to get shit on. Mass reaper is not an all in- there is no way to stop mass reapers without a large counter army because of their building damage and the potential for a marauder followup if you spam roaches.
I've not run into mass reaper with this build yet. Its on my list of things to test, though. I will post a replay if I can make it work.
Obviously no one build will work 100% of the time, guys...
He manages to snipe my spire, but not before I get 6 roaches and 5 mutas out. I started pumping roaches early, sacrificing a couple mutas, because I felt like he was up to something sneaky.
Sadly he didn't play it out. He just quit as soon as the mutas entered his base.
What about a Baneling Nest fake (In addition to a Roach Warren)? Wouldn't that discourage the use of marines, and promote ST usage? That would make the muta harass more effective, right?
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Too many deprecating posts in this thread...for all you detractors, where are your replays?
In response to OP's post, 1base muta like this does work pretty well. I often skip the queen and get it when the lair finishes ((it, and the extra larva, will pop around the time your spire finishes)), especially on smaller maps like LT. [Yes, it's a 4-player map, but regardless of spawns the air and ground distances are pretty small...compare it to something like Kulas Ravine or Delta Quadrant]
I hadn't been able to find an appropriate followup to this thought, I think the roach flooding might work, as I had previously been teching to hive ASAP (infestation pit right after my first 6-7 mutas pop, straight to hive) but had found myself vulnerable to a base trading terran. Roach flood might be a nice followthrough, as OP suggests..
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative.
[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two.
That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative.
[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two.
That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
It works out more or less exactly as mutalisks out 50s sooner at the cost of 8 larva, assuming perfect injection timing, no early creep tumour, and all larvae would be used as soon as they pop(are they with your build? I don't have SC2 on this computer so I can't check). Whether this 50s is worth it or not needs to be tested against a variety of builds to see, but I think in many cases it could well be.
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative.
[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two.
That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
It works out more or less exactly as mutalisks out 50s sooner at the cost of 8 larva, assuming perfect injection timing, no early creep tumour, and all larvae would be used as soon as they pop(are they with your build? I don't have SC2 on this computer so I can't check). Whether this 50s is worth it or not needs to be tested against a variety of builds to see, but I think in many cases it could well be.
In plenty of cases, I'm sure it would be of great benefit.
However, I still think you're giving up a lot of economy, and "fallback" in order to get your mutas out that much faster.
I'm theory-crafting here, but I have to feel like a Terran player who scouts a Zerg base with 2 gas, a pool, and a lair morphing is going to have to assume mutas.
At least by slowing things down a bit, we're getting a hardy amount of drones, while keeping the T somewhat in the dark as to what our game-plan is. (I've yet to play a Terran who didn't build at least 2 marauders after seeing the Roach Warren.)
Certainly lair before queen is viable. I just think it comes with a little more risk. (Reward too, for that matter.)
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative.
[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer.
Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374 I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two.
That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
It works out more or less exactly as mutalisks out 50s sooner at the cost of 8 larva, assuming perfect injection timing, no early creep tumour, and all larvae would be used as soon as they pop(are they with your build? I don't have SC2 on this computer so I can't check). Whether this 50s is worth it or not needs to be tested against a variety of builds to see, but I think in many cases it could well be.
In plenty of cases, I'm sure it would be of great benefit.
However, I still think you're giving up a lot of economy, and "fallback" in order to get your mutas out that much faster.
I'm theory-crafting here, but I have to feel like a Terran player who scouts a Zerg base with 2 gas, a pool, and a lair morphing is going to have to assume mutas.
At least by slowing things down a bit, we're getting a hardy amount of drones, while keeping the T somewhat in the dark as to what our game-plan is. (I've yet to play a Terran who didn't build at least 2 marauders after seeing the Roach Warren.)
Certainly lair before queen is viable. I just think it comes with a little more risk. (Reward too, for that matter.)
You could deny T's SCV scout before starting the lair or second gas, but a few zerglings should be able to manage that. I guess this would probably end up delaying your lair by around 30 seconds anyway(meaning mutas only 20s sooner). On the other hand, you could use the fact that a T who scouts super fast lair will likely assume fast mutas and respond accordingly with mass marines or tech rushing to AA, which could make it safer for you to expo. A 2-3 rax MM push would probably kill the hell out of this, but canceling the expo and dropping some spines could be an option if you see it coming. But yes, this is all theory crafting. I'll have to try it out some more.
Hey OP I just really want to say huge props to you man. Ignore all the negative feed back, I'm a newer sc2 player but I'm already diamond rank 10. I have to say I don't read many articles or watch many videos or anything because I feel the best way to learn is to train my self hardcore and find what works for me in each matchup. Ironically enough last week I was writing build orders down while brainstorming at work on my lunch break and I came up with a very similar one base muta build. I have since seen a large increase in my z v t wins and when I lose its usually do to poor transition macro on my part. I started doing so well with this style of strategy that my z v p started suffering because I was no longer as effective playing two base. I just want to say keep up the good work and good job basically stealing the ideas right out of my brain and putting them to words for the entire TL community. I would really love to talk more directly with you and maybe combine ideas on zerg to prove that zerg really isnt that far behind terran we just need the right ideas when playing. The main thing that caught me eye with your strategy that I felt clever when doing was dropping roach warren and hiding spire tech. It really does throw off the average dimaond terran player and force them into marauder siege prematurely. And to the guys who believe marines are the answer to all air, They must just run as soon as they see 5 marines because unless theres a full marine ball my mutas always win. Thors on the other hand....
On August 21 2010 13:38 Necator wrote: Hey OP I just really want to say huge props to you man. Ignore all the negative feed back, I'm a newer sc2 player but I'm already diamond rank 10. I have to say I don't read many articles or watch many videos or anything because I feel the best way to learn is to train my self hardcore and find what works for me in each matchup. Ironically enough last week I was writing build orders down while brainstorming at work on my lunch break and I came up with a very similar one base muta build. I have since seen a large increase in my z v t wins and when I lose its usually do to poor transition macro on my part. I started doing so well with this style of strategy that my z v p started suffering because I was no longer as effective playing two base. I just want to say keep up the good work and good job basically stealing the ideas right out of my brain and putting them to words for the entire TL community. I would really love to talk more directly with you and maybe combine ideas on zerg to prove that zerg really isnt that far behind terran we just need the right ideas when playing. The main thing that caught me eye with your strategy that I felt clever when doing was dropping roach warren and hiding spire tech. It really does throw off the average dimaond terran player and force them into marauder siege prematurely. And to the guys who believe marines are the answer to all air, They must just run as soon as they see 5 marines because unless theres a full marine ball my mutas always win. Thors on the other hand....
On August 21 2010 12:43 InfiniteIce wrote: Too many deprecating posts in this thread...for all you detractors, where are your replays?
In response to OP's post, 1base muta like this does work pretty well. I often skip the queen and get it when the lair finishes ((it, and the extra larva, will pop around the time your spire finishes)), especially on smaller maps like LT. [Yes, it's a 4-player map, but regardless of spawns the air and ground distances are pretty small...compare it to something like Kulas Ravine or Delta Quadrant]
I hadn't been able to find an appropriate followup to this thought, I think the roach flooding might work, as I had previously been teching to hive ASAP (infestation pit right after my first 6-7 mutas pop, straight to hive) but had found myself vulnerable to a base trading terran. Roach flood might be a nice followthrough, as OP suggests..
i have lots of replays showing it works against lesser players and those that are better and abuse certain time windows to smack me.
The magic box is a really important micro step that i dont think many zerg "muta rushers" in the western servers understand. Let us consider this: Muta play is an integral part of many korean SC2 players, and in korea zergs do not remotely have the amount of zerg QQ as we have here. In fact, zerg in the korean servers are "balanced" enough that half the top 20 diamonds in KR are, in fact, zerg, NOT TERRAN. This is not to say that koreans are more gosu than us, but simply that koreans have a better understanding of zerg play from BW. In comes the magic box. In ZvT in BW, there wasn't the thor, but there was the valkyrie. Both thors and valks have splash. How did the koreans handle this? By splitting forces, simply cos BW valk's splash is bigger than thor's splash.
Realistically, with adequate micro, it only takes ~4 mutas per thor. Not saying that it's cost effective, but think of the build time of a thor, now think how much larvae you have with each inject. Thus, my point is that muta builds are not as bad as you think (esp. the OP's build that starts harrass with mutas around the same time that the terran pushes his army, forcing a retreat or split) and muta builds should really be quite a bread and butter build for zerg, as opposed to current zergs' speedling harrass - if blizzard won't fix it, don't use it!
For anyone who hasn't been following the magic box thread, you need a ratio of about 3:1 mutas to thor.
In lower numbers you need a few more muta, and in higher numbers you need a few less. On average, 3:1 is the sweet-spot.
And for the record, if you use this build, you will have 5-7 mutas out in time for Terran's first thor.
Edit: Just played a second game against mass reaper, that I also won. Reaper harass with 2-3 reapers might be more effective. But the mass reaper style play just doesn't work. Mutas pop around the same time as the initial attack, and the build is so obvious that its easy to have some roaches out as well.
Always get that queen up first, whatever time advantage you gain from teching to lair first is lost by all the larvae you didn't spawn. You could get at least 6 more drones than if you tech to lair first, allowing you to increase your minerals per minute income.
Those added minerals would allow to create more defenses, faster.
So after IEM, I think we can all count on seeing a lot more reaper plays. Someone posted a while ago that this build would lose to reaper antics.
This is not the case. This build is very strong against reapers for 3 reasons.
1.) You have a very early roach warren, so 1-3 reaper harass will get shut down. 2.) Mutas pop around the same time of the big reaper push, negating it completely. 3.) A Terran player who invests so heavily in early reapers will have no anti air back home.
I feel kinda cheesey bumping my own thread so many times, but I wanted to state that I crossed over the 900 diamond threshold today using this build almost exclusively in ZvT.
And man, there's been so much mass reaper play lately. This just destroys it.
I have been using 1 base Muta for a while now. Think it was Sen who first had this build in the beta. Although i get speedlings instead of roaches + hide the spire with some lord spewing creep in a corner.
Regarding lair before queen, has anybody tried to build a second in-base hatch instead of the queen ? I think this way you come out faster and with better eco compared to just "lair before queen". Instead of scouting you build up higher productions caps (queen + 2 hatches) so in case of a rush you may pump out defense in time (e.g. you can build 2 queens in parallel in case of banshees, mass zerglings in case of hellions). Note that you can have an overseer at 5'20 to do some scouting. If you hide the 2cnd in base hatch, maybe the T starts looking for a hidden expo all over the map ;-)
Theorycraft build (did no scout, built no zergs or defense except the 6:00 queen) 13 gas 13 pool, 3 on gas 16 hatch, build 2cnd gas when starting lair and put 3 drones on scnd gas 3:30 pool 5:00 2cnd hatch finished + spire done 20/28 6'00 queen out 6'40 spire 7'30 5 mutas 43/52 250/250 (<= could have been speed and some lings or a bane nest).
since my apm sucks, it should be possible with perfect execution to get muta's additionaö 15s earlier (~7'15).
EPT
