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On August 20 2010 23:35 s[O]rry wrote:
The only push your mutas will kill in the middle of the map is one that has no marines. Like... Zero. If they are pure tank/marauder then yeah, you are going to win, but from what I have seen most terrans see that lair and don't think "Glial Reconstitution roaches!'. They just think "Hmm, either roaches or mutas. May as well make a few marines and marauders and win."
This is incorrect. Mutas will kill and equal number of marines with 0-1 losses every time. Unless T is doing a straight up pure marine build, your mutas will be able to kill off what units he has that shoot up. The exception to this would be a T player who gets 5+ marines and a fast Thor. In this case, this build definitely struggles.
On August 20 2010 23:33 DarkSeerTurbo wrote:
i'm going to respectfully disagree with the OP. this is very much all in (in a passive way rather than the all-in offensive attacks that "all in" is normally associated with). you're basically relying on the Terran to do nothing until mutas come out. that is unrealistic in most games. also, you are expecting them to have no anti air. their first t1 unit is anti air. i know you mentioned the roach warren to trick them and all, but i feel this is all way too optimistic thinking. chances are, you will get hit and/or your mutas will face opposition at Terran's base. and then you will get shut down with one attack group going to your main. i have no doubt that your plan will work on some games, but in the majority of games, against a decent Terran player, this will not work.
The overwhelming majority of popular T builds these days rely on some sort of early aggression. Be it Marine/Tank, Marine/Marauder, Early Banshees, Reaper plays, Early Hellions... This build specifically counters that style of play. Think of it like a mutalisk timing attack.
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote:I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
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If it looks so obvious that you are going to be teching muta, why not tech hydras (+drop tech) instead? The start is the same, and the gas cost of hydras is a bit cheaper, so you can afford to get ol speed and drop tech. Also, if they expect muta/roach, then they probably won't make many siege tanks, and those are the main drawback to hydras in zvt.
Side note: Overlords are armored, so a drop is relatively safe, even if they do have thors.
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On August 21 2010 04:53 Roconar wrote:
If it looks so obvious that you are going to be teching muta, why not tech hydras (+drop tech) instead? The start is the same, and the gas cost of hydras is a bit cheaper, so you can afford to get ol speed and drop tech. Also, if they expect muta/roach, then they probably won't make many siege tanks, and those are the main drawback to hydras in zvt.
Side note: Overlords are armored, so a drop is relatively safe, even if they do have thors.
o.O
Because you can't start to research drop until lair. You need speed as well and you're on one hatch. Mutas are infinitely better harass than hydras.
Your post doesn't seem relevant to this thread at all...
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How much does getting speed delay this build? It seems that after your queen finishes if you still have drones on gas you could immediately start lair and still have speed if you need it? Just curious.
I understand the threat of roaches forces some response from Terran but if he pokes you just a bit, with roaches you will be delaying your mutas a good bit whereas lings plus those crawlers will, in my opinion, still let u get your mutas out in the numbers you have.
Two things that I would say about a build like this are 1. you will need excellent scouting to be able to react to T early pushes and 2. it might be interesting to show banelings instead of roaches to make the Terran worry about a 1 base all in baneling bust.
Also, to those who cry all in. Sen has done a similar but safer build for a while. I would shy away from the absolute need to hide all tech or trick your opponent because a good player will still react well, but I like the idea behind this build.
Finally, if you use your mutas well, spending all gas on them and then expanding, you could use the time to double expand.
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This build takes a lot of practice. First few times I tried it I sucked balls and was steamrolled. Once you get better at micro, and don't run away like a pussy at the first sight of a thor, you'll find it to be very good.
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On August 21 2010 06:16 Chex wrote:
How much does getting speed delay this build? It seems that after your queen finishes if you still have drones on gas you could immediately start lair and still have speed if you need it? Just curious.
I understand the threat of roaches forces some response from Terran but if he pokes you just a bit, with roaches you will be delaying your mutas a good bit whereas lings plus those crawlers will, in my opinion, still let u get your mutas out in the numbers you have.
Two things that I would say about a build like this are 1. you will need excellent scouting to be able to react to T early pushes and 2. it might be interesting to show banelings instead of roaches to make the Terran worry about a 1 base all in baneling bust.
Also, to those who cry all in. Sen has done a similar but safer build for a while. I would shy away from the absolute need to hide all tech or trick your opponent because a good player will still react well, but I like the idea behind this build.
Finally, if you use your mutas well, spending all gas on them and then expanding, you could use the time to double expand.
Good post =)
Speed doesn't slow the build down, it just means 1 less muta when your spire finishes.
Blings might be a worthwhile trick to try. I use the Roach Warren because it doesn't cost any gas.
I have double expod off this build before with success. Just taking one expo allows you to keep up some pressure with roaches, though, and I think I prefer that style.
Edit: Also in response to speed - The build is cutting units unless they're absolutely necessary. Making 2-3 roaches in this case, is a lot safer than trying to defend with 4-6 zerglings. Speed or not...
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I used the sen variant of this build and it seems that it is an instant loss vs every single early bio push. Your mutas cannot stop marines effectively and marauders takes ages to kill. And since you have no zergling speed hellion harass will be a pain because mutas are not fast enough at killing them. The helios are too fast and will do too much damage before you can kill them.
I think 2 base muta is muchbetter because you actually have enough gas to pump mutas. Open speedling into expand and go roaches for the helios and reapers. Take 4 geysers while teching lair and make mutas. I thinK that build is much safer. Just my 2c
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On August 21 2010 09:11 Brutus wrote:
I used the sen variant of this build and it seems that it is an instant loss vs every single early bio push. Your mutas cannot stop marines effectively and marauders takes ages to kill. And since you have no zergling speed hellion harass will be a pain because mutas are not fast enough at killing them. The helios are too fast and will do too much damage before you can kill them.
I think 2 base muta is muchbetter because you actually have enough gas to pump mutas. Open speedling into expand and go roaches for the helios and reapers. Take 4 geysers while teching lair and make mutas. I thinK that build is much safer. Just my 2c
Hellion harass will have to deal with spines, queen and roaches (if you feel the need) back home.
A crazy marine all-in would pump out more marines than your mutas can handle, but against equal numbers, mutas dominate marines. The vast majority of T builds these days don't get more than 5-7 marines in time for this build's muta harass.
If they build more than that - don't engage the marines. That's why its called harass. As long as you don't suicide your units, you have map control and can expand freely.
Virtually every "this would never work" scenario that keeps coming up here is covered in replays. Go watch a few of them.
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If you're going to cheese, do it off of something stupid aggressive like 10 pool 9 gas. It doesn't matter how many mutas you have out, it matters when.
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This doesnt work once u get higher pts. Im close to 900pts now and ive been beating T with a modified sen build. (1base sling into 5+muta into exp+2 preemptive infestors vs marines into late game tech) However, some pushes (the one that comes right before or after u started to saturate ur natural) own my ass.. Sure, i can deal with marine/thor push once i have bling and infestors, but add a couple of tanks (2-3siege tanks+20marine+maybe a thor or 2) and I cant stop them before ultra comes nd safe the day.. Havent really tried massing the mutas since i only use 5 or so for map controll and havent really tried massing roaches (which is probably prertty good with speed). But even if i stopped the push, a good terrans will start building CC the moment ur muta fly out due to 2 pre emptive turrets+15marines. Once u have 2 base he'll be on 2 aswell. If he stays passive u win, if he moves out before ulta's pop and ur on 3 base gas u lose. (again, havent tried going mass roach yet, which doesnt seem to bad if he goes mass marine with fewer tank/thor support)
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On August 21 2010 11:42 ruiyang wrote:
This doesnt work once u get higher pts. Im close to 900pts now and ive been beating T with a modified sen build. (1base sling into 5+muta into exp+2 preemptive infestors vs marines into late game tech) However, some pushes (the one that comes right before or after u started to saturate ur natural) own my ass.. Sure, i can deal with marine/thor push once i have bling and infestors, but add a couple of tanks (2-3siege tanks+20marine+maybe a thor or 2) and I cant stop them before ultra comes nd safe the day.. Havent really tried massing the mutas since i only use 5 or so for map controll and havent really tried massing roaches (which is probably prertty good with speed). But even if i stopped the push, a good terrans will start building CC the moment ur muta fly out due to 2 pre emptive turrets+15marines. Once u have 2 base he'll be on 2 aswell. If he stays passive u win, if he moves out before ulta's pop and ur on 3 base gas u lose. (again, havent tried going mass roach yet, which doesnt seem to bad if he goes mass marine with fewer tank/thor support)
But this isn't a Sen build. Its straight muta expand that takes advantage of most (not all) Terran one base plays.
I'm between 750-800 right now, and am winning with this build left and right. Maybe it'll get harder in 100 more points. We'll see.
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I didnt see the replay yet as im on my iphone. But basing on your first post and w/o watching thereplays, i think we are both talking about the same build as we get our mutas out pretty much same time and both expand right before or during the time we get our mutas. 14gas, 14pool, pool finish i start queen and upgr speed (exactly 100gas), queens pops start lair (again exactly 100gas), take gas nr2 right away and start placing overlord for spire. Only diff is that you build a roach warren so he might get confused with making units (which is a pretty good idea) Sorry if i misunderstood and I'm talking bout 2 completely diff builds. I'll def try out ur build tmrw and watch the replays cus in my experience, the mass tank/marine timing push demolishes me cus good T spams marines +1-2 thor support with mass siege tanks v Z (no super early push but after he secured nd saturated his 2nd base right after me)
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Mass reaper openings are very common and this build is going to get shit on. Mass reaper is not an all in- there is no way to stop mass reapers without a large counter army because of their building damage and the potential for a marauder followup if you spam roaches.
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On August 21 2010 12:15 sikyon wrote:
Mass reaper openings are very common and this build is going to get shit on. Mass reaper is not an all in- there is no way to stop mass reapers without a large counter army because of their building damage and the potential for a marauder followup if you spam roaches.
I've not run into mass reaper with this build yet. Its on my list of things to test, though. I will post a replay if I can make it work.
Obviously no one build will work 100% of the time, guys...
Edit: lol, first game after making this post I get a T who goes mass reaper:
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403
He manages to snipe my spire, but not before I get 6 roaches and 5 mutas out. I started pumping roaches early, sacrificing a couple mutas, because I felt like he was up to something sneaky.
Sadly he didn't play it out. He just quit as soon as the mutas entered his base.
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What about a Baneling Nest fake (In addition to a Roach Warren)? Wouldn't that discourage the use of marines, and promote ST usage? That would make the muta harass more effective, right?
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[B]On August 21 2010 01:25 MrBitter wrote:[/B Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote:I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable. All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings. Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it.
I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire).
What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
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Too many deprecating posts in this thread...for all you detractors, where are your replays?
In response to OP's post, 1base muta like this does work pretty well. I often skip the queen and get it when the lair finishes ((it, and the extra larva, will pop around the time your spire finishes)), especially on smaller maps like LT. [Yes, it's a 4-player map, but regardless of spawns the air and ground distances are pretty small...compare it to something like Kulas Ravine or Delta Quadrant]
I hadn't been able to find an appropriate followup to this thought, I think the roach flooding might work, as I had previously been teching to hive ASAP (infestation pit right after my first 6-7 mutas pop, straight to hive) but had found myself vulnerable to a base trading terran. Roach flood might be a nice followthrough, as OP suggests..
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On August 21 2010 12:40 brad drac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 01:25 MrBitter wrote:[/B
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote:I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it. I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire). What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push.
Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative.
[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two.
That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
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On August 21 2010 12:49 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 12:40 brad drac wrote:On August 21 2010 01:25 MrBitter wrote:[/B
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote:I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it. I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire). What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push. Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative. Show nested quote +[B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable. I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two. That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult.
It works out more or less exactly as mutalisks out 50s sooner at the cost of 8 larva, assuming perfect injection timing, no early creep tumour, and all larvae would be used as soon as they pop(are they with your build? I don't have SC2 on this computer so I can't check). Whether this 50s is worth it or not needs to be tested against a variety of builds to see, but I think in many cases it could well be.
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On August 21 2010 12:59 brad drac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2010 12:49 MrBitter wrote:On August 21 2010 12:40 brad drac wrote:On August 21 2010 01:25 MrBitter wrote:[/B
On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote:I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable.
All-in plays rely on a single act to determine the outcome of the game. This isn't the case here. This is a one base timing attack that expands as soon as the aggression starts. The only sacrifice you make to your economy is getting your natural up slower, since you're producing pure drones until your mutas pop. (that's approximately 30 supply worth of drones. Ample for one base) This build is very similar in concept to the 2 hatch muta builds that became so popular in BW about a year ago. Aggressive, but safe against 90% of Terran openings.
Also - in regards to your replay - that build just straight up wasn't this one... You got lair before queen, your second gas was late, you built 6 roaches, you got a 2nd queen before mutas, you didn't hide your spire, and you only made 2 mutas initially... Run the build as its detailed in the OP and then come back with an opinion. If nothing else, at least watch the replays before making baseless comments against it. I don't think you understood my post. I have nothing against one base muta, I think it's a great build and one I've been using for quite a while. My post was about the possibility of a build where you make the lair before your first queen. Seeing as this is a [d] thread and not a [g] thread, I did not consider it inappropriate to post here to see if anyone thinks it's a viable alternative, just to get the mutas out as fast as possible so the terran player won't have had his usual time to prepare(as in fairness, who doesn't expect mutas from a one base zerg?). I realise, as I mentioned, I'm a low skill player and I made a lot of mistakes that game, mainly because it was my first proper attempt and I was just making it up on the fly, stress testing it to see how a terran would respond(hence not hiding the spire). What I said about all ins was in response to the other posters who called one base muta all in. It is absolutely not(as I pretty clearly said), it just sacrifices the presumed economic boost of a very fast expo for the chance of doing some damage with a strong timing push. Apologies - Just trying to respond to everyone's feedback. I guess the claws come out a little when its so overwhelmingly negative. [B]On August 20 2010 23:58 brad drac wrote: I've been tinkering with a variant of this where I get my lair before queen and I do get some roaches out to defend. With good spotting, you can drop a couple of spines to defend against a heavy bio push. This way you can get the spire out before terran gets thors and a good bit faster than most would expect. If you think this strategy is all in, I don't think you understand what the term means. It does sacrifice a lot of economy for early harassment, but when the mutas pop, it will allow you to grab your expansion as it'll almost certainly pin T back to his base. Getting away with FEs as zerg is increasingly difficult, I think one base builds are a lot safer. Here's a replay of my first attempt at this: http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2374I'm not and do not claim to be a very skilled player(supply blocked myself as the spire finished durp), and my opponent really should've reacted better when he scanned my hive, but I'm going to try it a few more times to see if it's actually viable. I messed around with some Lair before queen builds as well, but I felt like doing that was putting yourself pretty all-in. You lose quite a few drones - both by virtue of speeding everything up, and by missing out on a larvae spit or two. That said, going straight to lair is a little bit faster. Just remember that speeding it up also means less money in your pocket, making that roach switch a little bit more difficult. It works out more or less exactly as mutalisks out 50s sooner at the cost of 8 larva, assuming perfect injection timing, no early creep tumour, and all larvae would be used as soon as they pop(are they with your build? I don't have SC2 on this computer so I can't check). Whether this 50s is worth it or not needs to be tested against a variety of builds to see, but I think in many cases it could well be.
In plenty of cases, I'm sure it would be of great benefit.
However, I still think you're giving up a lot of economy, and "fallback" in order to get your mutas out that much faster.
I'm theory-crafting here, but I have to feel like a Terran player who scouts a Zerg base with 2 gas, a pool, and a lair morphing is going to have to assume mutas.
At least by slowing things down a bit, we're getting a hardy amount of drones, while keeping the T somewhat in the dark as to what our game-plan is. (I've yet to play a Terran who didn't build at least 2 marauders after seeing the Roach Warren.)
Certainly lair before queen is viable. I just think it comes with a little more risk. (Reward too, for that matter.)
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