EPTI still think the 15 gas 14 pool build may be a little bit better on large maps but I really have been liking this build on smaller maps. It's nice not to be playing reactive until T3.
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 10
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SixSigma
United States16 Posts
I still think the 15 gas 14 pool build may be a little bit better on large maps but I really have been liking this build on smaller maps. It's nice not to be playing reactive until T3. | ||
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
On August 23 2010 09:07 Shakes wrote: I love the concept of this build, show the early (non-speed) zergling, hit them with roaches to break the wall and force a switch then swarm in with speed zerglings. As a player who has a lot more time to read about the game than play it (ie my mechanics are terribad) I thought I'd give it a shot in the silver/gold sort of range. Unfortunately at the lower levels I'm finding it not quite as effective in practice as on paper because it's a bit too meta for your opponent, especially vs terran. I couldn't force marauders in any of my games. Instead you break their wall but the roaches can't kill all the marines and the lings dripping in can't quite come fast enough to stop the wall eventually going back up. So my advice for lower level players is if you see lots of marines build a second round of roaches before attacking and it's probably GG right there. Against protoss at lower levels it's auto-win against anyone not doing cannon wall offs though, I love it. Against mass cannons in retrospect I probably wouldn't even make my round of roaches and just expand rather than try to force the issue (ended badly both times I tried, I was trying to end the game before the void ray cheese that mass cannons usually spells). I gave it a try against Zerg since people say it can work, but my experience is everyone at the lower levels pools really early and by the time you get roaches they'll have enough lings to surround and kill them. Probably not news to any good players, but thought it may be useful to lower level players working their way up. @Umpteen: great post, all too familiar, my favourite was when I made the extractor but forgot to put anyone in it until it was time to make roaches. Delayed zerglings with no speed are imba ... But thats exactly what this build is NOT for. Its not an all.in build. Your goal should never to end the game with your raoches/lings at beginning, never. Thats stupid. If your opponent is very bad you will see it, and then you can end it. Otherwise, if you cant do DMG or break wallins etc. doesnt matter, you got a good defense against every other shit like reapers/helions/berserker rush blabla etc. pp. thats the point. Macro up like normal after the Push. Go Mutas and win.  greets | ||
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Baby_Seal
United States360 Posts
That said, I doubt I'd feel too comfortable using this against Protoss, but I haven't really tried playing a walled in Terran (can't use an AI for that). This seems like it has potential. I was already looking for a quicker roach build that could help me deal with reaper and hellion harass. | ||
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Ragnar4
United States64 Posts
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Baby_Seal
United States360 Posts
That makes a little more sense. I thought those Immortals were popping out awfully fast... | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
EDIT: Just did the same thing twice in a row... It works great since the roaches delay the mutas a bit a quick switch to tank rauder w some scvs to bunker really puts a hole on the Zerg cuz now they cant grab their 3rd and are contained in their base letting you get your expo up fast and taking map control. | ||
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Ragnar4
United States64 Posts
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PhilipJWitow
29 Posts
 What I like about these kinds of topics though is that it provides new strategies for Zerg players, but it also allows people like me to read through them and try to figure out what I can do against this and play against it in future. Nice job Fist. ^^ | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On August 23 2010 11:08 Ragnar4 wrote: Very Hard is one more min and one more gas per trip. Insane is 2. Insane gets 2 gas/minerals per trip more than you, that is right. But the very hard ai does not get 1 mineral more. It gets the same amount you get. | ||
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Pgbz
Canada55 Posts
15pool 15gas 15ol 1 ling when pool done drones if you didn't scout 2 gate no gas, else you need lings and throw the roach warren faster metabolic boost with first 100 gas roach warren at about 7/8 when queen is about to finish. 5 roach I rally them to the protoss' choke. Next 2 batch of larva goes for zerlings, rally them on roach, depending on the map, roach and zergling will meet in same time to the protoss' choke. After you'll have another wave of zerlings to back up. This can easily become an all-in build if you don't pump few drones here and there. I like to get a second queen when I'm about to push, second gas, expand is risky. Also help if Void Ray are already out. If the 4 gates are already out, which most of the time are not, toss is favored, might as well go back in your base and defend. If he's teching, you're greatly favored, if he has good sentry micro, you wont get in, but most of the time you still get in. If this fails, you're behind economically and have to build atleast 3 crawler. It's all about scouting. If you see 2 gates no gas, you need roach warren right after pool is done, delaying my bo. Pretty successful build, my win rate vs protoss is about 75%. Rarely get to a t3 game. Found some replay, i was about 650, not my best games, maybe timing are a bit off too. http://www.mediafire.com/file/2s81zem88lunjc6/replay.rar First one, toss is teching to robo. Get Roach Warren faster since 2 gates. Second is a toss teching to stargate. Roach also faster since 2 gates. Third is a 4gate push. Toss wasn't that good and he didn't even wall. Here's a replay from today. ~750 http://www.mediafire.com/?zz6k5ckv8y5iepq Over did it with the drone at the start, then went all in in this game since he was teching. Recently I'm going 9/10 ol, 11/10 drone to have the larva a little bit faster, but didn't check if it was worth it yet and end up with a late pool/gas. | ||
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Xizorz
93 Posts
Enemy scouted roach warren and went heavy marauder/tank and light marine. He could have a moved into my base and rolled me but instead he decided to play cute with siege mode that he didn't need. Mutas came out and he had nothing to counter them. | ||
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roliax
135 Posts
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LPolaright
Israel9 Posts
I'm not sure entirely thats the build he went to - he built a spine crawler probably so I wouldn't overwhelm him. Also notice the misconception on my part. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/62379-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war I know, not the best player in the world probably don't even want to be. I'd like to know how would you counter it back, out of curiosity since I play Random and I want to know what should I do in a situation like this. (If I was on the other side) Also it seems that now almost every zerg uses this strategy, or atleast people in plat. Thanks for the guide man! edit: He probably should have scouted me with his overlord near my base, but I still don't think he had much to do. | ||
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On August 23 2010 17:21 LPolaright wrote: I'd like to know how would you counter it back, out of curiosity since I play Random and I want to know what should I do in a situation like this. (If I was on the other side) 1.) This zerg did not do the 5RR build. He did something completely different. 5RR build would have had roaches nearly 2 minutes earlier than this player. 2.) Simple scouting counters your build, because your army is tiny and a simple ~50 food push finishes you off, if you don't have good forcefield micro to block your own ramp. 3.) If the zerg had instantly started queen production when he saw your voidray he would have had 2 queens with a 3rd halfway done when your army went into his main. 4.) At the beginning he missed a complete inject, cause he instantly placed a creep tumor, even though he had no expo at his natural. The primary reason to throw down a early creep tumor is to connect main and natural for easier defense. 5.) I'm sure i missed something, because i'm really tired. | ||
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Rinser
2 Posts
As this strategy is very easy to execute and leaves you with a decent economy to evolve from and a huge load of possibilities, I use it very much and yet I don't try to all in after the blockade bust because I want my mid and especially my late game macro to grow better. As I kept going, I had much success with the 5rr and I always could point out a mistake at some point at lost games, but this time, I had a devastating loss, possibly because of my lack of ability to read other races' build orders. Well, here's a replay: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=141959 Everything went as planned, at perfect timing, and as my roaches were about to march in and my OL and the Expo were morphing (he didn't scout at all, despite hiding an SCV to see my expo timing), my 2 lings spotted a tech lab and I thought "k, marauders...". So, ingame decision making: 1 or 2 larvawaves on drones, lair, some zerglings, spire, then 3rd expo, mutaharrass and so on, but at the time my expo went up, it came: MM, 3rax at least! lost expo, morphed a load of lings, threw up 2 spines and though "okay, THAT wasnt planned... now hold out 'til ur spire is up and you can get back into the game... oh, my forces gone already? gg -.- what could i have done better? please give me some advice | ||
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samuraibael
Australia294 Posts
vs P: I won every game the opponent didnt wall off. When they did I was in trouble. The amount of harrass you can do against a wall never seems to justify the cost of the roaches. Not to mention the problems sentries cause. Really good against void ray rushers but the vast majority of P 4 gate (which is a hard counter imo). vs T: Way better. At the moment early marauders are a lot less common than early stalkers so its less likely to find a T base you cant recuperate your roach costs on. | ||
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-141975.jpg) He goes for standard reaper build against zerg but it actually gets countered by early roaches. It's not exact 5RR build but when i saw his 3x barracks i decided to go roaches. You can see that i start speed for lings just after it and then make a bunch of lings which unfortunately don't have time to get to his base :D | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
vs Z : I defended against the early 6 ling with queen+drones and countered with roach. It turns out his banelings are really ineffective against my roaches :D. He gg'ed fast enough vs P : I lost twice to 2 gate pressure into expand. Once i forgot a Overlord (T_T) and could only pop 2 roach against 6 zealots . The second time i successfully defended the zealot rush, but he kept putting pressure on me and prevented me to put my expansion ( roach micro off creep is hard T.T ). He eventually out macroed me. vs T: He went 3 rax reaper and dealt no damage at all because his micro was sub-part. He tried to bunker my ramp but roaches destroyed his bunker then i went to harrassed and destroyed 1 depot + 1 tech add on. Iswitched to muta while he transitionned into Marauder-Tank. You can all guess how it went :D As a result i think this opening is great ( although i would not do it on long rush distance map) but i still need to micro these roaches better, especially off creep. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On August 23 2010 19:36 Rinser wrote: ... http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&&id=141959 Everything went as planned, at perfect timing, and as my roaches were about to march in and my OL and the Expo were morphing (he didn't scout at all, despite hiding an SCV to see my expo timing), my 2 lings spotted a tech lab and I thought "k, marauders...". So, ingame decision making: 1 or 2 larvawaves on drones, lair, some zerglings, spire, then 3rd expo, mutaharrass and so on, but at the time my expo went up, it came: MM, 3rax at least! lost expo, morphed a load of lings, threw up 2 spines and though "okay, THAT wasnt planned... now hold out 'til ur spire is up and you can get back into the game... oh, my forces gone already? gg -.- what could i have done better? please give me some advice I watched the replay you linked and I actually think your timing still could improve quite a bit. The biggest things in my eyes were around 30 supply, where this build gets quite busy anyway. You did not morph the second injection into 10 lings and you did not get ling speed at that time either. Also you did neither scout with an OL or your first 2 lings at his choke and you did not attack with your roaches. Attacking with 5 Roaches is the whole concept of the 5 roach rush as far as I did understand. If your opponent is opening with marauders or stalkers, you have to back-tech to zerglings ASAP or you'll often die outright. This. Also this build will most probably die to 1base 4 gate and 1 base 3rax unless you build lots of lings asap. Also you could and should hide your scouting drone in his base as long as you can, so you can see his tech. Knowing that he has 3 rax could have helped you survive. And no, Muta tech takes forever to complete, so you cannot wait it out when he goes aggressive opening(3rax). I hope this is helpful to you. | ||
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