EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 12
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wikked
Germany12 Posts
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lovewithlea
168 Posts
14 pool 16 extractor 16 overloard 16 queen 18 2-4 lings 19/20 drones 20 roach warren 21 overloard wait till infused larvas pop build 5-7 roaches go 32 expo+lingspeed works fine versus terrans cause they all asume a FE or muta tech and almost never build more than one marauder or even none. but most protoss will have few stalkers out and couple of zealots + a 4 gate will crush you soon after, so do not do it versus P | ||
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jisaeltl
83 Posts
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Frost-Duty
United Kingdom10 Posts
The worst i had was 1 ray out as i got there. Busted through the front easy, killed pylons to stop and more VR production, then went for the workers with my speedlings. 1 VR takes far too long to kill that many lings and roaches. You lose all your units, but if they have quick teched you inflict massive damage on their economy. Then u just get an extra queen or 2 and keep pounding on the front door whilst transitioning to hydras. Then its GG | ||
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Myrkur
United States34 Posts
But if he has sentries he can just forcefield his ramp till he has enough forces to stop the roaches. IF this is the case then expand now, and get lair tech. Just contain him and threaten to come in every now and then. If he starts to push you can either lay down spine crawlers or your expansion is up and can pump units to defend. Don't be dumb and sacrifice your units when he pushes out, just bring them back to base. He will either attack or expand now. The protoss has two options when you get to his door. Force Field his ramp or try and kill your roaches. Force Field is the superior choice here. After that he has two more choices, build an army(hopefully over commiting to immortals) to defend then push or tech. In either case you have the advantage because your expanding and teching at the same time. If he pushes out he has two more choices, Attack and expand or Expand and defend. If he is attacking you can put up 2-3 spine crawlers(Depending on army forces) and pump out some units, kill and counter attack because he just spent 400+ on his expansion. If he is defending then you can pump out 5-8 Muta's and harass and take his probe count down well below your drone count. One build I ran into that gave this trouble is Marine Spam FE from terran. He has enough marines to destroy my roaches, and when I leave he Expands, and I kind of just have to let him. Luckily for me the Main and Nat were set up great for Muta Harass, so I was able to wreck his economy negating the expansion + setting him back some. | ||
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jisaeltl
83 Posts
Frost-Duty United Kingdom. August 24 2010 23:38. Posts 4 PM Profile Quote # VRs do not stop this. The worst i had was 1 ray out as i got there. Busted through the front easy, killed pylons to stop and more VR production, then went for the workers with my speedlings. 1 VR takes far too long to kill that many lings and roaches. You lose all your units, but if they have quick teched you inflict massive damage on their economy. Then u just get an extra queen or 2 and keep pounding on the front door whilst transitioning to hydras. Then its GG a person going 1 gate void rays will have 2 zealots and 1 stalker at their ramp blocking it, which means 2 zealots 1 stalker 1 vr vs 5 roaches 2 lings. also the stargate is built inside the base and you will not be able to get in to snipe the pylon. while your 5 roaches are hitting the zealots the void ray is charging up, i don't see how you could "bust through the front easily". i just tested it on the unit tester and all 5 roaches and 2 lings die with 1 void ray and 1 stalker remaining. care to expand on how you break the protoss front? | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
Won me 2-1 in pvp matches. Wins were by busting in and then overunning with speedlings. The loss was to a proxy 2gate at my natural on oasis where i messed up timings, got contained and then cannon pushed to death >.> Haven't really used it in ZvT. Tried it on kulas (big mistake on my part  ) and had to back off cos i spotted a bunker. then i lost the macro game since i always expand badly on kulas. The other game i had vs terran was on scrap station where he lifted at the start and flew to the island, so i threw the BO out the window and went mass expand mass corruptor and dragged the game out till i had enough broodlords/corruptors to a-move over his turret-filled, viking-covered, cruiser-supported island. Going to the watching a lot of the ZvT replays though. terrans make me cringe. But mostly, massive thanks for a build that i can pressure with that isn't all-in. | ||
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theSAiNT
United States726 Posts
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Frost-Duty
United Kingdom10 Posts
On August 24 2010 23:51 jisaeltl wrote: a person going 1 gate void rays will have 2 zealots and 1 stalker at their ramp blocking it, which means 2 zealots 1 stalker 1 vr vs 5 roaches 2 lings. also the stargate is built inside the base and you will not be able to get in to snipe the pylon. while your 5 roaches are hitting the zealots the void ray is charging up, i don't see how you could "bust through the front easily". i just tested it on the unit tester and all 5 roaches and 2 lings die with 1 void ray and 1 stalker remaining. care to expand on how you break the protoss front? I just testing it vs my mate, hes in platinum, with a reasonable record. He lost with VRs. I easily took out the forces on the front gate, got into his base, VR is starting to hit me. I start taking down workers. All my stuff dies. THEN, my next bunch of like 12 speedlings runs in and go to town on his workers. VR cant kill them fast enough, he loses basically all his economy. From then on i had it won, got some queens to defend the VRs, massed hydras and hit his base for the GG. http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=142369 Thats the game. No, we arent the pros, but i think its a pretty good representation of reasonable players, take a look and see what you think. We both made some mistakes, my expand was late etc, but i think they balanced out. We are 2 players of pretty equal skill level. I was testing the build out on him, he knew it was coming, and we decided to see if VR rush could stop it. He didnt think it could. Its possible the toss could have got some things out a little quicker, but i also think i could have hit him a little earlier as well, so again, i think we balance out. What i think the replay demonstrates well is that even with a VR out the build can still do huge damage once you penetrate the base. EDIT: Added replay | ||
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Myrkur
United States34 Posts
On August 25 2010 00:28 theSAiNT wrote: How does this do vs the now fashionable mass reaper openings? Slow roaches are quite easy to kite. If they go reapers, probably best to pull back and defend? Check the OP, this build does very well against it. I ran into it last night, and my Roaches were breaking his wall before 2 Reapers could get to my base(and just as the third one popped out). I actually killed one reaper and got the second one to 5 health on the way there(didn't chase the second one). | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
<3 this build As zerg we feel weak at times, but we adapt and overcome :D | ||
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jisaeltl
83 Posts
this is a replay of me doing a 1 gate stargate build. http://rapidshare.com/files/414878008/5rr_stopped.SC2Replay some things i noticed your protoss buddy did wrong/weird -strange b/o -moved his zealots back allowing base access to your lings and roaches -FF badly placed, should split army but mostly your friend was bad on a lot of timings. notice how at 6 minutes i have a void ray, 2 zealots, a stalker, and a sentry, which is when your 7 roach 2 ling push comes. shortlyafter my warp gate research is finished at which point i would have produced more zealots to stop the reinforcing zerglings, plus the two void rays will be fully charged already. also, the build you are doing is not the OP's. you are doing an all in with lings and roaches. notice how you only have 15 drones @ 6:00 mins while in my replay i have 30 probes. if one had decided to cannon up they would severely out macro you. OP's build specifically states "without the all-in" | ||
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Fitzsimmons
Canada36 Posts
On August 25 2010 00:28 theSAiNT wrote: How does this do vs the now fashionable mass reaper openings? Slow roaches are quite easy to kite. If they go reapers, probably best to pull back and defend? Just ignore them, if they try to kite, and kill them if they screw up their micro. In such small numbers, they don't do enough damage to stop you from dealing significant blows to the terran infrastructure. Go for depots, tech labs, or SCVs. In the meantime, he's potshotting you with a small handful of reapers against 5 roaches, while frantically trying to get out enough marauders to not die immediately. Unfortunately for T, there's 10+ speedlings on the way... | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
The openings against each other provide a fun little dance and an interesting dynamic. After a bunch of games against it, I've come to regard them as roughly even against each other with a lot of skill-based play on both sides. | ||
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Ragnar4
United States64 Posts
These were plat/diamond level zergs too, and they just didn't have the chops to stand up to this early harass followed by a good mixed push. The awesome part is: The 5 Roach Rush would have dominated this build. The 1:1:1 seems to have 1 to 2 marines, maybe a marauder, and maybe 2 hellions at the time you have 5 roaches knocking at his door with a dozen lings in tow. I was absolutely aghast at how well this build does against 1:1:1. The Protoss that I spent watching had slightly modified his build wall off to include the core and the gateway with no pylons giving frontage, which makes the roach push a little tougher IMO, I owuld be scared of trying to power through 800 hps while being pounded on by a few zealots and a stalker/sentry. | ||
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Frost-Duty
United Kingdom10 Posts
I still think that your 3 zealots/stalker/sentry would die quickly and to that many roaches, without killing many in return, and the following wave of lings would be able to get into the base. I adapted the OP build, as i just personally think that if you see them going VRs you should be able to push through and do a lot of damage with the lings/roaches, and basically punish them for teching. I still dont think its all in, i have a decent economy going, even if its not quite as strong as yours would be. But then i have to choose between units or workers, you dont. I also dont think its an all in because even if you stop the push it will not be without casualties. The zerg ground force should kill your ground force given how strong roaches are vs zealots, and then the following lings should be able to do reasonable economic damage before the VRs take them down, pretty much evening things out on that front. Your build would definately have gotten a 2nd VR out earlier, which may well have made quite a bit of difference. Im actually quite happy to trust the OP on this one, since he has probably had a lot more practice XD and go with the conclusion that they are fairly evenly matched, and the result would probably come down to the skills of the individual players. Not a bad thing! | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
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Exawn
Netherlands13 Posts
I think we can get presure on terran with the fast roaches, like it should be. The coolest thing on this build is, after the roaches destroyed the supply depot, you can go zerglings or macro up to muta's. What still get presure on the terran player. Still i think zerg needs a new unit or something to stop these agressive openings from terran. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Check it out and plz feedback or edit the entry as you see fit!  5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran)(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later) | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
1: The Roach Warren should be build at 75% in order for the Warren to pop at the same time as the Larva. 2: Making a Lair at 400 Gas is a huge waste of resources. One ought to pull Drones off Gas once the initial 225 Gas is succesfully mined. | ||
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