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On August 25 2010 19:36 Newti wrote:I add this strategy to Liquipedia2. Check it out and plz feedback or edit the entry as you see fit!  5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran)(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
Thanks mate, I've been practising this (just a gold player here) and it really feels like a nice solid opener that puts you in a good position in most games, it's good to have a good template going down on the wiki  .
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On August 25 2010 19:36 Newti wrote:I add this strategy to Liquipedia2. Check it out and plz feedback or edit the entry as you see fit! 5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran)(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
GJ Mate. I was planning to do it myself tonight ( as i am at work now and i love this opening:p). Let me know if you need any help, i'll take a deeper look at it when i get home
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I tried it against the computer several times and it only worked when the computer when reapers :-\
I'll try on ladder.
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Against terran you have to be careful not to lose all your unit without dealing major damage. If you see Marauder/Helions for example, you want to pull back to your nat and prepare to defend the incoming push with the help of a few more unit/spine crawler
I have found it much easier to end the game with the push against protoss than against terran.
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On August 25 2010 22:04 Tyrran wrote:Against terran you have to be careful not to lose all your unit without dealing major damage. If you see Marauder/Helions for example, you want to pull back to your nat and prepare to defend the incoming push with the help of a few more unit/spine crawler I have found it much easier to end the game with the push against protoss than against terran.
Honestly, I don't think you should try to end the game. You should just try to do some damage, convince the opponent you are going to allin, and then macro up. This will cause your opponent to become overly defensive, or he will come out with a counter push himself, but either way, you have done early damage and are set to go into a macro game, where as your opponent probably isn't. Now, of course you are going to end the game if you can, but its better to not jump the gun too much imo. Also, I think you can scout a maraud/stalker opening with your first lings, and if you see that, you can opt to not get the roaches right away,or to just use them defensively.
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On August 25 2010 19:36 Newti wrote:I add this strategy to Liquipedia2. Check it out and plz feedback or edit the entry as you see fit! 5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran)(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later)
YOU ROCK! Thanks!
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On August 25 2010 19:54 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
The build order lacks some optimization.
1: The Roach Warren should be build at 75% in order for the Warren to pop at the same time as the Larva.
2: Making a Lair at 400 Gas is a huge waste of resources. One ought to pull Drones off Gas once the initial 225 Gas is succesfully mined.
Completely agree with both. I've been testing 13/13 instead of 13/15 so I can get ling speed before I make the roaches too.
But the framework has been laid, and people like yourself will take it and crush.
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On August 25 2010 19:54 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
The build order lacks some optimization.
1: The Roach Warren should be build at 75% in order for the Warren to pop at the same time as the Larva.
2: Making a Lair at 400 Gas is a huge waste of resources. One ought to pull Drones off Gas once the initial 225 Gas is succesfully mined.
I actually thought that point 2 went without saying, I did that like, subconciously the first time I did the build, however point 1 is definitely a good point. You should add that to the wikipedia page once you have a polished/optimized version of the build.
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I'm only a gold zerg, but I tried this against 2 Terran last night. Game one my opponent was meh, he only had a factory and a handful or marines by the time I marched up his ramp with five roaches. Easy GG.
2nd game I screwed the BO up and only got three roaches, but I marched them in, made 2 drones and 4 more roaches at next larvae pop. The first three roaches faces 3-4 marines and a marauder but got his depot to 1/4 health. 2nd set of roaches broke his base and creamed the rest of the army, got three supply depots and scouted a Destiny Cloudfist +1 starport. Took out the tech labs and got owned by the banshees. But by that time, my expo was up, I was droning hardcore, got evo chamber + 2spores and a few extra queens. He switched to thor/rine so I back-teched to hydra/ling (which is surprisingly effective vs thor/rine), and he GG'ed outright.
Overall, the build puts amazing pressure on your opponent and put them off their game. This totally punishes tech builds. If I had let the terran expo and build up his army he would have rolled me. This early aggression forces them to produce an army, which cuts their safe expo / scv production, allowing me to stay on even footing or get slightly ahead. If you see a thor/banshee counter push just throw up a few spines/spores and macro up some slings and go into "survive this push" mode. Great build Fist, I am looking forward to trying it some more and modding it to see what Zerg can do against heavy bio.
(I would also like to point out that "marching" is the best term for roach movement, I play army music when I push).
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I've been playing with this build a bit and it seems to me speedling@20 food (instead of after roaches) is a really nice alteration. You end up having to wait about 5-6 seconds for enough gas for the last roach, but your speedling research is done when the speedlings come out, and that means they move pretty quickly to the opponents base. You end up attacking with roaches + speedlings instead of roaches and then later speedlings.
I haven't really played around with it, but you could probably even fix that delay by getting gas before 15.
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This build is really good. I tried yesterday against a Terran. I didn't do it perfectly, got out with only 4 roaches, missmicroed them at the choke, but still won.
Not very high-level game, but it is nice to be agressive with roaches early game.
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thanks for this. build is sick and in the hands of someone with decent game sense and skill (e.g.. me!) can do no wrong. can transition from this into anything from moar roaches, lings to serious macro mode. thanks for the post.
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Thank you, Fistdantilus for this build. I haven't opened with roaches in forever. It's about time to start doing that again
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On August 25 2010 21:48 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 19:36 Newti wrote:I add this strategy to Liquipedia2. Check it out and plz feedback or edit the entry as you see fit! 5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran)(Only Terran done so far, will do for Protoss later) GJ Mate. I was planning to do it myself tonight ( as i am at work now and i love this opening:p). Let me know if you need any help, i'll take a deeper look at it when i get home
Thanks for the responses!
The sweet thing about Liquipedia is that everyone can help to contribute. I just laid the framework and you can edit the post to add information and correct mistakes. Feel free to help where you can (even if it's grammar, because mine sucks  )!
I will also look into an alternative build order with earlier gas and getting Ling Speed before Roaches (with the first 100 Gas). If you can still get the roaches at the same time while building the gas on 13 this might be a huge improvement to the build and depending on the map size will let the first wave of lings reach the base almost at the same time as your roaches.
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On August 26 2010 00:05 Newti wrote:
I will also look into an alternative build order with earlier gas and getting Ling Speed before Roaches (with the first 100 Gas). If you can still get the roaches at the same time while building the gas on 13 this might be a huge improvement to the build and depending on the map size will let the first wave of lings reach the base almost at the same time as your roaches.
You are supposed to build the Extractor approximately 5 game seconds after Pool if you want to mine 225 gas and have time to remove the Drones before it's time to make Roaches. 14P14G or 13P13G hits the mark almost perfectly.
It takes approximately 55 game seconds to mine 100 Gas from one Geyser. This is very useful to know when you make the first draft for a build order.
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This is just something I noticed, an observation I find amusing.
Is it me, or does this tactic have roots in the first days of beta? It seems similar to the roach onslaught that caused them to get nerfed into the ground. I remember opening roaches and the toss had to get a quick immortal out or get destroyed.
With terran it caused a couple of days of fast thor to counter them. Then Zerg rebutted with infestors which eventually lead to NP having to be researched.
I guess we have come full circle :D
Terran will switch from reapers to marauders to mirror the rushes that caused their shells to be upgrades.
This is fun!
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Haha, so once again 14 pool 14 gas gives us the magic timing...what can't it do?!
Joking aside, I've been having trouble against Terrans that open reaper, repel the roaches with one production cycle of marauders, and then regain map control with more reapers, followed by a timing attack when spire is going up. Reaper marauder is a really strong composition 
I don't have replays because i forgot to run SC2gears so none of the replays I wanted got autosaved, but I have a feeling that maybe it's possible to get spire up before the big attack if your timings are really tight. Anyone else experience this T style?
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Updated the OP with the 13/13 build getting ling speed early. Works great.
Also, taking the drones off of gas helps get minerals for queens and power droning. Good stuff.
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fistdantilus,
greeting from china, where you're now famous!
xmoegame：五蟑螂RUSH战术分析 (5 cockroaches rush tactics)
http://v.sc2.com.cn/1008/146683507834.html
its commentary on one of your games vs logic.
posted august 25th, 2010
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EPT
