EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 15
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Subztance
United States139 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On August 20 2010 11:40 Fistdantilus wrote: 5 Roach Rush (5RR) NOTE: All of the replays are on the old 13/15 build, but all of the ideas remain the same. Anything else about the build different in the replays, besides getting gas earlier? Also, why'd you change it?  | ||
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Nu11
Canada167 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Definitely not an insta-win against anybody who isn't teching but the early pressure is HUGE especially since it's such a solid economic opening on top of the aggression I'm finding I still prefer the 13 pool/15 gas because if you time it just right after getting zergling speed you will have 128 gas right when the RW pops, great optimization i love this build, opens up my options a ton. if they over-compensate with stalkers lings will absolutely ruin their day | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
On August 26 2010 15:27 Subversion wrote: Anything else about the build different in the replays, besides getting gas earlier? Also, why'd you change it? When getting 13 pool 15 gas you have 100 gas for Lings speed shortly after making 5 Roaches. When going 13 pool 13 gas you can get Ling speed with the first 100 gas and still get the roaches out at the same time with much, much earlier Ling speed. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30. So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess. Suggestions? | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
Delaying the roaches in the 5RR was bugging me a bit as i dont want protoss player to have time to get an extra sentry/stalker/immortal out.I also like having the choice between squeezing 2 drones for an easier transition to mid game and 4 lings for a more agressive approach. Edit: I would also love to test the improved version ZvZ. I'm not sure of the timings against the banelings but i think it is worth a try. Depending on how fast i lose in the EPS qualifier tonigth i will test this today or tomorrow. | ||
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Lighioana
Norway466 Posts
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30. So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess. Suggestions? My god, every time I check this thread an already awesome build just keeps getting more optimized. Keep up the good work guys. And I can't help thinking how amazing it would be if this build starts seeing really high-level play and the commentators did in fact refer to it as "The Fist". Not only does it have that sweet ring to it and is a shoutout to the OP of the thread, but it's also a build based around punching a hole in your opponents base early with five roaches. Five fingers make a fist right? Too perfect. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
The Fist Build is born :D | ||
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dadde
Italy314 Posts
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
On August 26 2010 19:30 dadde wrote: post these builds in liquipedia.they're really hot! I already did that. Once the build is refined I will link it on the Zerg Strategy Section. Until then, here you go:  5 Roach Rush (vs. Terran) | ||
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30. So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen This works out really nicely. Good job. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
nevertheless I have a specific question regarding this and feel it would be faster/better if I just asked directly: do you have a replay that specifically shows how to beat a protoss-player who goes for fast void rays? I'm a protoss-player myself and when scouting the roach warren I always go with an early void ray (also vs FE but on big maps: phoenixes) and get as many sentries as I can afford gas-wise; I lay low on stalkers to save my gas for void rays and sentries; I'm not a good player so my opponents consequently are not very good either; nevertheless I don't want to "stick" with a build that will result in a definite loss when my opponent knows what he's doing; so do you think you could deal enough damage vs hardcore-force-fielding protoss-players before the void ray (chrono boosted of course) pops out? do you have a replay? again I'm sorry for not reading/watching anything, just hope you could answer this specific question | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Depending on map size, your wall, how fast void rays spawn, etc. you will have more or less damage done to you by the roaches/lings. Worst case the Zerg kills your Sentries and a few drones before you clean it up. Depending on Micro/Skill of the two players, both should be able to transition to midgame relatively even. Expect the Zerg to have 3+ Queens tho. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64845-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station I'll just keep posting my replays here so people can take a look at this strategy on a lower level around 600-700 Diamond too. Also this is the first replay here with the new 13/13 fast Speed build. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 26 2010 20:14 Newti wrote: Another Replay against a 600 Diamond Toss on Scrap Station (he goes fast robo). http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64845-1v1-protoss-zerg-scrap-station did he build an early immortal? if yes, I'll definitely download it when I'm home Depending on Micro/Skill of the two players, both should be able to transition to midgame relatively even. hmm...I always thought I'd have an advantage because I could throw down an expansion while he can't due to his inability of defending two bases against air without hydras; I never have problems with queens (though three queens in one base is pretty damn much), usually I lift up one with my phoenix, roast the second with my void ray, then when charged the second queen won't be a problem either; the void ray will take damage beyond shield, but shouldn't get orange or even red; | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
The first one is that, most of the time, you will be able to create the roach warren after killing, chasing the probe from your base. So you will have to guess if roach are comming or not. Secondly, even if you see the roach warren and decide to go fast void ray, from my experience ( I have not played Top level players  ) the protoss can only squeeze 2 sentry out ( and a few zealots) without delaying the void ray too much. So it is still possible to break through the ramp and to open a path for the speedlings. More over, as soon as you see the void ray, you can start pumping queens and transition safely to mid game as the protoss will not be able to pressure you too much. And as the robo tech will be late, Roach/Hydra will let you take control of the game.It is of course not by any mean an auto win against void ray opening, but you still can do some damage and transition safely | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
it's vs a FE but you can really see the strength of this build which lies in the fact that one void ray accompanied by phoenixes won't take too much damage by queens (phoenix-lift-up); of course close positions like here on scrap station are helpful too http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/838 | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
On August 26 2010 20:16 sleepingdog wrote: did he build an early immortal? if yes, I'll definitely download it when I'm home He was dead before a unit popped from Robo. | ||
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