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Yea I often look at my minerals and think, damn i want to expand.. but to fight with Roaches and Speedlings, two completely different units that require optimal positioning and individual microing due to their speeds is too taxing for my apm. I hope once I get more familiar with it I will be able to expand simultanously and even put the drones back in gas after a while.
Also you are right, I should definitely fake an expansion.
Just sending 1 drone and 2 lings to the bunker to make him think I want to expand can actually make him feel to safe and therefore lose.
Thanks a lot for the comments, much, much appreciated!
To the not scouting.. I think there is no scoutable build that would make me switch strategy before the point where I am locked in (Roach Warren down). Sure there are worse and better situations but the only hard hard counter (Mass Marauder) is not scoutable as it could very well be reapers coming out of that rax. Everything else will not put me far behind and still make 5RR decent (as least from what I have encoutered so far).
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How are you guys ending up short on gas with the 13pool/13gas build? You should end up with a surplus
I've been going 15gas because you can get a perfectly timed 128 gas right when the RW pops
ditto for minerals I always have minerals in excess even with a scout
if you're having problems you're likely not executing the build properly
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Someone mentioned that the only thing this doesn't hold up to is a cannon turtle....
How about simply a cannon wall at ramp? Can 5 roaches take out 2 cannons? 3? (I'm at work, can't test)
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On August 27 2010 00:34 RampancyTW wrote:
How are you guys ending up short on gas with the 13pool/13gas build? You should end up with a surplus
I've been going 15gas because you can get a perfectly timed 128 gas right when the RW pops
ditto for minerals I always have minerals in excess even with a scout
if you're having problems you're likely not executing the build properly
We are researching Ling Speed with our first 100 gas.
With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches).
Now with an earlier Extractor we obviously end up with less minerals.
Depending on if you scout, what map and spwan position you play on and if you do minor mistakes you will be a few minarals short. Executing everything perfect with no scouting will usually work tho.
The reason this build is superior to 15 Gas in my opinion is that you get Ling Speed 1 Minute and 20 Seconds (!!) earlier while having the exact same timing on the Roaches.
Downside being you can't expand straight away when moving out; you have to delay that a bit (not too much).
The initial rush hits MUCH MUCH harder with little to no tradeoff.
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Newti: Not scouting makes the opponent always careful of cheese as far as i know. Also terrans can be harrasses wonderfully with that scouting drone, its the best time of the game imo 
Ive won a game once with my scouting drone having 3 kills and having denied the techlab spot for the rax, the opponent lifted it up, so my speedlings ran in for the gg :D
was against 730points diamond terra 
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On August 27 2010 00:42 MalaysianMafia wrote:
Someone mentioned that the only thing this doesn't hold up to is a cannon turtle....
How about simply a cannon wall at ramp? Can 5 roaches take out 2 cannons? 3? (I'm at work, can't test)
5 Roaches will have a lot of problem killing 2 or even 3 cannons on top of a ramp.
What I would do when encountering this is:
Putting 3 back in gas, build 2nd Extractor, fast tech to lair while keep pumping Roaches.
Throw down Nydus when T2 is ready and backdoor the protoss. I dont think there is any chance to hold against this unless you scout the nydus before its completed.
On August 27 2010 00:44 Viruuus wrote:Newti: Not scouting makes the opponent always careful of cheese as far as i know. Also terrans can be harrasses wonderfully with that scouting drone, its the best time of the game imo Ive won a game once with my scouting drone having 3 kills and having denied the techlab spot for the rax, the opponent lifted it up, so my speedlings ran in for the gg :D was against 730points diamond terra
Haha you are right :D
I will try to work in a scout around 13 Supply. Useful against terran (also because you can't float the ovie over their barracks.
Against Toss tho you can park the overlord over their gateways and be safe .
2 Gate Proxy is hard to hold off but on maps where it is popular I will usualy scout for it.
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With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches).
Incidentally, the OP still says to begin the roach warren when the queen is 50% done. When I do that, the RW pops quite a while before the larvae and especially the gas are ready. I' going to try delaying until 75%, and even trying for an extra drone / pair of lings meanwhile. I'll let you know if it sucks or not
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On August 27 2010 00:42 Newti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 00:34 RampancyTW wrote:
How are you guys ending up short on gas with the 13pool/13gas build? You should end up with a surplus
I've been going 15gas because you can get a perfectly timed 128 gas right when the RW pops
ditto for minerals I always have minerals in excess even with a scout
if you're having problems you're likely not executing the build properly We are researching Ling Speed with our first 100 gas. With a 13 Extractor this will net you just over 225 gas by the time the RW finishes (which is 100 for speed and 125 for 5 Roaches). Now with an earlier Extractor we obviously end up with less minerals. Depending on if you scout, what map and spwan position you play on and if you do minor mistakes you will be a few minarals short. Executing everything perfect with no scouting will usually work tho. The reason this build is superior to 15 Gas in my opinion is that you get Ling Speed 1 Minute and 20 Seconds (!!) earlier while having the exact same timing on the Roaches. Downside being you can't expand straight away when moving out; you have to delay that a bit (not too much). The initial rush hits MUCH MUCH harder with little to no tradeoff. I'm getting ling speed with my first 100 gas too, you shouldn't be having this problem
if there's anything more than a 5 second delay after the RW pops you did something seriously wrong, not just mildly
13 extractor will net you at least 30-40 gas over by the time RW pops if you don't pull off gas after 128, which is why i'm back to the 15 gas
i have to go back and retest but the speed should still pop using the "normal" build when the first round of reinforcing lings is just starting towards the enemy base
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I just did some more testing myself, and when you take the 13th built drone to scout, it will be working just perfectly on all the timings. The only thing that is a little bit delayed is the expansion, but you can put it down right when the roaches are out of your base (else you can put it down shortly after they spawn, thats like 10 seconds).
Also i got exactly 125 gas with this when the roachwarren pops, without the scout you might have the RW a little earlier...
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I've had about 95% winrate using this build in custom games. I think it is time to put it in use in ladder
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When doing this, sometimes I arrive at the terran/protoss base with Stalkers/Maurauders at the ramp (2-3). My roaches get squished on narrower ramps, so my question is:
1. Do you backoff at this point? Or do you still go up.
2. Do you target breaking down the wall, or killing the units attacking you (despite the fact that your roaches may not kill them fast enough).
Also do you normally make your next injections all zerglings to follow up? Or only if the wall breaks.
Thanks
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
you could've won that game vs whiplash. how did you not notice the DTs on the field?
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On August 27 2010 01:19 edwin23 wrote:
When doing this, sometimes I arrive at the terran/protoss base with Stalkers/Maurauders at the ramp (2-3). My roaches get squished on narrower ramps, so my question is:
1. Do you backoff at this point? Or do you still go up.
2. Do you target breaking down the wall, or killing the units attacking you (despite the fact that your roaches may not kill them fast enough).
Also do you normally make your next injections all zerglings to follow up? Or only if the wall breaks.
Thanks
1) Commit. They will not have enough to kill your roaches before you get through the wall. Worst case scenario is that you only have 2 roaches left when the wall falls. But 2 Roaches and 10-12 speedlings will win against their 3-4 stalkers/marauders.
2) Target the wall (Supply Depot or Zealots). If it is zealots then move/target micro them down to minimize hits taken, they die in 2 volleys from 5 roaches.
3) The wall always breaks. I've never had it not break, so yes, followup is always speedlings.
One thing a lot of people have problems with is that they tell the roaches to attack the wall from the bottom of the ramp. DON'T DO THIS! You will only get 2, MAYBE 3 roaches attacking the wall. You must Micro your roaches up the ramp, then attack so all 5 are hitting it. Maybe so close that 1-2 of your roaches are actually meleeing the depot.
When you get through, roaches are used to kill marines/zealots and hellions. Speedlings go after marauders/stalkers. In my experience, a bunker must be built for terran to defend it and cannons must be built for toss to defend it. You can scout the cannons from toss, but a bunker is a little more difficult to scout. If there is a bunker, just run by it and attack SCVs.
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Here's a replay ZvT. The T goes fast tank, which repels my rush pretty well. I didn't pull off the build order perfectly (13p 13e, but I forgot to get speed) and the rush mostly failed. However, this is more evidence that this rush is NOT all in, because I recovered just fine from a failed attack.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-143133.jpg)
I'm high plat (17-7, assume I will be in diamond once I play more) and my opponent has around 550 points in Diamond IIRC
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Just wanted to let you know that I now broke 700 Diamond for the first time; largely thanks to this strategy. Only lost 2 out of my last 10 games and more than half of those 10 games were 5RR.
All-Around excellent build that has a very, very high chance to end the game in the first 7-8 Minutes.
I say, lets abuse this until T&P are prepared for it 
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Watched all of your replays newti, and (no slight on you) the opponents were really bad :< in more than half the replays they finished with like 300+ gas. I guess building a random bunker at zergs natural can actually win some games lol.
It's a really great build, in your order you say 2 drones after roaches (the ones you cut before) but in all the replays were built lings instead. Any thoughts on this? The 4 extra lings do seem useful, so maybe you should edit your order again :D. Would love to see some failed rushes into transitions, that will probably show better opposition as well.
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On August 27 2010 03:31 f0rk wrote:
Watched all of your replays newti, and (no slight on you) the opponents were really bad :< in more than half the replays they finished with like 300+ gas. I guess building a random bunker at zergs natural can actually win some games lol.
It's a really great build, in your order you say 2 drones after roaches (the ones you cut before) but in all the replays were built lings instead. Any thoughts on this? The 4 extra lings do seem useful, so maybe you should edit your order again :D. Would love to see some failed rushes into transitions, that will probably show better opposition as well.
I would love to provide you with failed rushes into transition.
But to be honest; I only lost one single game out of over 10 games today where I applied this strategy. It was against Protoss on Scrap Station where he did a nice wall off and stalled long enough with sentries to get 2 more stalkers out and then crushed me with 4-gate .
While the opponents may seem bad, this is (surprisingly?) all above 600 Diamond... I don't know if I keep getting lucky with my opponents or if this rush throws them off guard and they panic, not knowing how to react exactly since I don't think many Zergs know about this or actually use it in high level games. *shrug*
Concerning the Ling vs. delayed Drone i'll quote myself from an earlier post:
When going with the "delay two drones" build I not only have a little room for error, but I also get to decide to pump an additional 4 Lings.
This is nice because with the first 2 Lings you will see the general build of your opponent and when you know you have a good chance to end it right away versus a specific build (like 2 gate, Hellions, Reaper), those 4 Lings can make a difference.
If you are up against a Stargate or Marauder build you can always just make those 2 Larva into Drones.
So yes, I will probably edit the wiki entry again. Explaining when and why to get Lings or Drones.
Thanks a lot for the feedback, f0rk!
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On August 27 2010 00:02 xtcz wrote:Thraundil, my muta techs have usually resulted in base trades. Kind of annoying and I tend to lose. So wait, what're you proposing for ZvZ based on your last post? (ZvZ with 5RR is problematic for me right now...still trying to wrap my head around it.) Block off choke with Roaches (which is great), then what? Everything you described seems to be a lose/lose situation. Newti, that'd be nice. I need to get not mess up my build when opening up. Ugh, posted a replay but I think I botched it frequently. I just noticed the refined builds, so I'll give those a shot.
Make a sort of 5RR, blocking your ramp with roaches (you only need 3 roaches to ward off the early attacks and maybe add on another 2 or 3 soon after that. Also make 6 lings to ward off your opponents 6 standard ling scouts / scout of your own with them). . Then, saturate your main slowly while making only roaches. (send a few scoutlings to your opps base and keep your own roaches out of sight from the ramp, apart from the blockers).
If opponent is going for mutas, you a-move your roach ball and thats a win right there. If your opponent has roaches of his own, go either mutas or hydralisks or tech roach speed / armor. If your opponent expands (your overlords should monitor this), scout his forces out. If he has many roaches, expand yourself, moving your roach ball down to protect the expo, and tech upgrades or hydras or mutas. An overseer is also important to remember - both for those nifty little changelings, but also to not get burrow-harassed.
Can post a few replays some time if I can find them / next time I play a zvz.
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Ohhh this build would be so scary if roachling was implemented. I look forward to putting this to use, im an overly agressive player and cant stand letting opponents get away with walling>expo>turtle>push out midgame.
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EPT
