EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 18
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
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Naumo
Slovakia10 Posts
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly. 13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Rax + Fact Wall off is nowhere near enough to stop 5RR. I think its this replay where I play vs a Terran doing it: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64903-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war To be safe you either need bunkers or an extra Marauder. Also you cant me sure the Zerg doesn't FE when he kills your scv @ exe with 2 lings and a drone... sure, you can scan but.. | ||
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etceteraetcetera
United States38 Posts
1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there. | ||
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Highrock
2 Posts
I'm a begginer zerg player currently in bronze league (thou two of the coming games are against gold league players) and I've been having great fun with the 5 Roach Rush. Fistdantilus, thanks a lot! I'm using the original (13-15) build in these games, seeing the new one now I'll try it out tommrow. -Me beating a gold league players ( I was jumping up and down when I saw he was gold after the game) http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=143195 -Beating a Protoss void ray rush http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=143196 And here is the important part a loss to a gold league player: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=143198 I would love to hear what you guys have to say espically on that last match and how I should have handled it better. Thanks and have fun. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On August 27 2010 07:28 etceteraetcetera wrote: I love youI'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I saw this and had to try it out a few times, and this build benefits an incredible amount (especially against protoss) from a gas steal from the scouting drone. 1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there. in all seriousness that's a pretty damn good point, tech rushes won't be viable and it will hamper them all through the early game giving zerg all the time it needs to drone up | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
I'm getting ling speed with my first 100 gas too, you shouldn't be having this problem if there's anything more than a 5 second delay after the RW pops you did something seriously wrong, not just mildly 13 extractor will net you at least 30-40 gas over by the time RW pops if you don't pull off gas after 128, which is why i'm back to the 15 gas i have to go back and retest but the speed should still pop using the "normal" build when the first round of reinforcing lings is just starting towards the enemy base Ok, I've spent a couple of hours testing this vs very easy AI to be sure of no interruptions, and here's what I found: 13p 13e with early ling speed: I'm slightly gas-capped when the larvae spawn. Last roach pops at 5:12 (other four slightly earlier), ling speed at 5:32 and I'm able to drop a hatchery at 5:20 with 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords. 13p 12e with early ling speed: Essentially identical to 13p13e except the hatchery is delayed 4 seconds. However, the roaches are now mineral capped instead of gas capped, so I went back and tried cutting the drone after the queen spawns: 13p 12e with early ling speed and cutting the post-queen drone until after the roaches start: Roaches all pop at 5:07, speed at 5:27, hatch goes down at 5:29 with 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords. 13p 15e with early ling speed: I'm back to waiting for gas when the larvae spawn. Roaches spawn at 5:22, ling speed at 5:36. I'm able to drop a hatchery at 5:18 with the same 18 drones, 2 lings and 5 overlords. Note: because I'm awful I didn't bother taking drones off gas after making roaches. If I had, the hatchery times would have been a little earlier (13p12e benefiting the most, 13p15e the least). In summary: I was able to shave 5 seconds off the 13p13e roach spawn time by going 13p12e, at the expense of expanding 9 seconds later. Even 13p13e was 10 seconds faster to roaches and 5 seconds faster to ling speed than 13p15e, for essentially no penalty to dropping your expansion. | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 27 2010 07:28 etceteraetcetera wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I saw this and had to try it out a few times, and this build benefits an incredible amount (especially against protoss) from a gas steal from the scouting drone. 1. They will be forced to make more zealots than stalkers. 2. They will typically pull at least one zealot off of their ramp to take out the gas; if you can manage to get the roaches at the ramp while this is happening, it's almost gg right there. You, sir, get a gold star. This seems amazing vs Protoss. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Because i choose not to cut drones/make them later my zling speed is a little bit delayed but tbh it makes almost no difference on the overall timing because super early slings aren't the focus of the build, and again the (barely) 15gas coincides nicely with my mineral/gas timing for speed what i'm doing will net you more minerals for early investment which isn't a huge deal but i like having the extra little boost edit: in a nutshell i like having 10 slings show up 10 seconds later than 6 slings would show up to reinforce doing 13/13 or 13/12 edit2: and if the timing isn't quite working out for you going 14 gas will be roughly the same. which is probably what i'll settle to because sometimes getting the timing right is a pain in the ass one way or another the 13/13 shouldn't be delaying your roaches at all | ||
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Baby_Seal
United States360 Posts
Anyway, I was thinking about a way to counter this as toss once you see it coming, and it occurred to me that building stalkers while blocking off your ramp completely (with an extra pylon or something) could give the stalkers an opportunity to pick at the roaches a little bit while they try to get through your defensive wall. More pylons and other buildings could be constructed to buy extra time (kind of like fighting off a baneling bust). Also, a sentry could help buy some time. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On August 27 2010 08:58 RampancyTW wrote: the 13p 15e i'm doing is pretty close to a 14e (VERY immediately after 15) and assuming you time everything else right you WILL have just barely enough gas when the larva and RW pop Hmm. Here's the thing: my drones harvest gas at the same rate as yours, and we both need the same amount: 225. If we both have enough minerals and larvae and supply to be able to hit RRRRR the instant our gas hits 125 (after having spent the first 100 on ling speed), and I started harvesting gas three drones before you, I'm going to get my roaches that much sooner, right? Now, you're saying you just barely have enough gas when the RW and larvae pop. Since it's flat-out impossible for 15e to get 225 gas earlier than 12e, the only explanation is that your RW and larvae are later. I'm open to the idea that mine is a false optimisation. After all, 13p15e lets you expand 10 seconds sooner. If you have spare larvae, that might translate to four extra lings instead. On the other hand your ling speed is delayed, so my slightly later reinforcements might still get there on time | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
 Unless you're roaching off of the first round of queen larva, what you're talking about doesn't apply. It doesn't matter how quickly you get 225 gas: it only matters that after speed you have 125 leftover by the time the 2nd round of larva pops. My larva and RW are not any later than yours, because we're getting queens at the same time and that dictates larva timing, and having a roach warren up earlier isn't going to help you if you don't have the larva to produce with it. I have both the necessary gas and the RW up by the time round 2 of larva pops which is all that matters (and again, my delays in the timing will net me more minerals without delaying the first batch of roaches)edit: just notice nodq's post. we're doing the the same thing pretty much, for the same reasons | ||
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Draktharr
Canada17 Posts
against muta rush against 6pool I didn't saw your replay, but can you tell me if you scout his base or losing a worker to scout is a too big loss for your income? (for your perfect build order i mean) | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On August 27 2010 05:35 nodq wrote: WIth 13 pool and 15 OL i cant get lingspeed befor roaches, if i do, i cant get 5 roaches out because of missing gas. 13 pool and 13 gas makes no sense at all, thats more gas than i need, and it cuts my mins, and delays the expo you want to throw down after/during your push and your zerglings to keep up the pressure. Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly. 13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt you dont mention in this BO when you throw down the RW? also in response to the guy above, i dont think build was designed for ZvZ. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On August 27 2010 10:04 RampancyTW wrote:Unless you're roaching off of the first round of queen larva, what you're talking about doesn't apply. But I AM roaching off the first round of larvae That's the build......although now I come to look at the OP again, that's not as clear as it used to be when it was 13p15e. It now says 'reinject' before you make roaches, but that's purely because you'll be waiting on gas for a couple of seconds after the first round of larvae spawn (unless you go 13p12e). You don't wait for the second round of larvae before getting roaches. I'm so glad I'm not going mad... | ||
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Draktharr
Canada17 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again. My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing. | ||
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Grimjim
United States395 Posts
The only Terran build it seems to beat is 1/1/1, but I hardly run into that anymore. Against Protoss, however, it totally destroys. 2 gate or no, it's quite a powerful opener. And against Zerg it will stop any early Baneling shenanigans. | ||
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