EPTHAHAH best response ever!
I'm much more interested in ZvT replays though, especially vs. fast reapers. Anyone got some available? I haven't been able to ladder recently thanks to my internet connection :/
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 16
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
HAHAH best response ever! I'm much more interested in ZvT replays though, especially vs. fast reapers. Anyone got some available? I haven't been able to ladder recently thanks to my internet connection :/ | ||
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
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Blackjackbob
Canada164 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30. So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess. Suggestions? I played the "current" build against a comp and seemed to have much better results than you. I did not use the "adapted" build. On the "current" build I have 5 roaches at 5:01 and I have speed at 5:22. I am currently tryng to find out how to upload a replay so I can show you and prove it. Stay tuned. http://www.mediafire.com/?xsegevgabkimacj | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
I played on Blistering Sand and when i squeeze in 2 Drones it will delay my Roaches.. so if you can replicate it on Blistering, let me see  .I guess i could start speed a bit earlier, but usually i build the OL before i upgrade speed, might work the other way around. | ||
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Blackjackbob
Canada164 Posts
I was on Steppes of War. Note: I get owned by the comp lol but thats not what this is about  | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Although I already came to like those extra Lings | ||
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Shakes
Australia557 Posts
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Suptzs
Switzerland48 Posts
If your larva is close to the mineral field you can do the 'current' build and otherwise you have to cut 1 or 2 drones? | ||
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Shakes
Australia557 Posts
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
Newtis version worked better for me. But either way, the timing for both minerals and gas on the 5 roaches is really, really tight for the 13 extractor version. | ||
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wuddersup
United States228 Posts
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
When I use the "original" build, I have adapted it to not include ling speed, but instead of 5 roaches I pump out 7 when the warren pops (supply capping me for a few moments sadly). There are a few ups and downs with this. Downs probably being lack of ling speed which means the lings will not reach the opponent base in time, meaning if the roaches fail at their job I am behind. (Mostly I use that spawn to pump drones and not lings, too). The ups obviously being 2 extra roaches in the first wave, meaning even if he does have a marauder / stalker or two out, you can often force your way inside despite this. When this happens, I go for his economy rather than trying to kill his waves of reinforcement. You guys have any comments? I have to say I have had major success with this strategy against a variety of playstyles, the only thing it really falls through against is early stalkers (4 warpgate pushers) and terrans going reaper harass 'cos they can so easily transition into marauders and roll over you. (Note that if you get into his base, snipe off the tech labs then hit his economy, gas SCV's first). Also top zvz strategy: Block your own ramp with 4-5 roaches on hold. This negates banelings and speedlings from getting in, and only going for the 4-5 at the ramp often tricks your opponent into thinking "Oh, he's going for flying". With the amount of drones at the line at this point, you can keep spitting roaches for 2-3 injects, maybe spiced with a few lings. Then attack your opponent. This can result in one of 4 scenarios: 1. He was going pure ling. Either basetrade race, or you beat him in the open field and then proceeds to his base to win. 2. Banelings. You win, he has spent so much gas on them and they only really tickle roaches. 3. He's gone for mutas / hydralisks. If mutas, hurry up and put a lair tech + hydra den down, and smash as much of his base as you possibly can, aiming at the econ and the spire first. 4. He's gone pure roaches too. Now it just boils down to who has more roaches Tried this in a few mirrors, and 9 minutes in I was sitting at around 20 roaches. Of course this smells a bit more of "all in", since if this fails you will lack in economy. However, if you place overlords correctly you will also be able to see an expansion, in these cases I like to assault them only just after they finished morphing, so I actually get the kill and not just the cancel. | ||
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xtcz
United States16 Posts
On August 26 2010 22:52 Thraundil wrote: Hey guys. When I use the "original" build, I have adapted it to not include ling speed, but instead of 5 roaches I pump out 7 when the warren pops (supply capping me for a few moments sadly). There are a few ups and downs with this. Downs probably being lack of ling speed which means the lings will not reach the opponent base in time, meaning if the roaches fail at their job I am behind. (Mostly I use that spawn to pump drones and not lings, too). The ups obviously being 2 extra roaches in the first wave, meaning even if he does have a marauder / stalker or two out, you can often force your way inside despite this. When this happens, I go for his economy rather than trying to kill his waves of reinforcement. You guys have any comments? I have to say I have had major success with this strategy against a variety of playstyles, the only thing it really falls through against is early stalkers (4 warpgate pushers) and terrans going reaper harass 'cos they can so easily transition into marauders and roll over you. (Note that if you get into his base, snipe off the tech labs then hit his economy, gas SCV's first). Also top zvz strategy: Block your own ramp with 4-5 roaches on hold. This negates banelings and speedlings from getting in, and only going for the 4-5 at the ramp often tricks your opponent into thinking "Oh, he's going for flying". With the amount of drones at the line at this point, you can keep spitting roaches for 2-3 injects, maybe spiced with a few lings. Then attack your opponent. This can result in one of 4 scenarios: 1. He was going pure ling. Either basetrade race, or you beat him in the open field and then proceeds to his base to win. 2. Banelings. You win, he has spent so much gas on them and they only really tickle roaches. 3. He's gone for mutas / hydralisks. If mutas, hurry up and put a lair tech + hydra den down, and smash as much of his base as you possibly can, aiming at the econ and the spire first. 4. He's gone pure roaches too. Now it just boils down to who has more roaches Tried this in a few mirrors, and 9 minutes in I was sitting at around 20 roaches. Of course this smells a bit more of "all in", since if this fails you will lack in economy. However, if you place overlords correctly you will also be able to see an expansion, in these cases I like to assault them only just after they finished morphing, so I actually get the kill and not just the cancel. Thanks for this. This was kind of what I was looking for. I botched earlier ZvZ matches with this because I got carried away with initial 5 roach push and got overwhelmed with Speedlings, when I should have been teching up. Ironically enough, my natural instinct is to tech to Mutas while I keep him out, but I suppose it's all situational. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
Here is one where the Terran decided to get cute with 5 rax reaper: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64892-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant Again vs. Terran, this time Hellions (750 Diamond): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64896-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station Terran with Hellions again, it hits them really hard. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64903-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war Toss 2 Gate Steppes of War: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64959-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war Terran: I ARE MORROW KK 5 RAX REAPER!!! http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64963-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station Ill keep updating here. | ||
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Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
On August 26 2010 23:22 xtcz wrote: Thanks for this. This was kind of what I was looking for. I botched earlier ZvZ matches with this because I got carried away with initial 5 roach push and got overwhelmed with Speedlings, when I should have been teching up. Ironically enough, my natural instinct is to tech to Mutas while I keep him out, but I suppose it's all situational. Cut out my initial post to not mess up the thread totally. Its by no means a great wisdom but the few zvz where I've been doing this it has kinda worked. 1-base muta doesnt work at all, gonig 2-base muta exposes you greatly to roaches, blings, speedlings etc. and rushing for hydralisks will just make your opponent spam out a ton of speedlings and cave in with spine crawlers while harassing you, until he can get a critical mass of mutalisks at which point no amount of hydras really does it for you due to the splash damage of mutalisks, and the difficulty level of actually protecting all your drones from hit-and-runs. (spore crawlers of course but getting up enough fast enough might not be possible). | ||
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xtcz
United States16 Posts
 Newti, that'd be nice. I need to get not mess up my build when opening up. Ugh, posted a replay but I think I botched it frequently. I just noticed the refined builds, so I'll give those a shot. | ||
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Newti
Switzerland71 Posts
I only recently switched from 10 to 9 Overlord and sometimes i get a 10th drone out of habbit and it throws me off xD Or I forget the Drone after 9 Ovie. There is a lot of room to mess up this build and it is very unforgiving since the timing is so tight. Although when going with the "delay two drones" build I not only have a little room for error, but I also get to decide to pump an additional 4 Lings. This is nice because with the first 2 Lings you will see the general build of your opponent and when you know you have a good chance to end it right away versus a specific build (like 2 gate, Hellions, Reaper), those 4 Lings can make a difference. If you are up against a Stargate or Marauder build you can always just make those 2 Larva Drones. | ||
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xtcz
United States16 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On August 26 2010 18:28 Newti wrote: After playing around with the build a bit and testing it I came up with a slightly different order. + Show Spoiler + Here a few numbers (replay time): Old 13/15 build has 5 Roaches at 5:00 and Speed at 6:39 The current 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:20 and speed at 5:32 The adapded 13/13 build has 5 Roaches at 5:01 and Speed at 5:30. So here are my changes: 9 Overlord 13 Spawning Pool 13 Extractor 15 Overlord Zergling Queen Drone Drone Roach Warren (latest you should start is when queen is halfway done) Zergling speed when you have 100 gas Overlord when queen pops, inject larvae Take drones off gas once you have 125 Re-inject 5 Roaches (Warren, OL, and injection should all pop very close to each other) Drone Drone Overlord (31/34 food) Drone Expansion when your roaches are walking to the enemy Re-inject Zerglings as you get the minerals, rallied to your opponent's base Queen As you can see, the problem is not having enough minerals for almost 20 seconds when squeezing in those 2 drones. But if you delay them until after the Roaches you still get Roaches on time and very, very early speed. In fact the timing is so good that once your Roaches reach the opponnents base your next larva pop of ~10 speedlings reach the base at the exact same time (tested on Blistering Sand). If you want to go really agressive you can cut the 2 drones in favor of 2 more lings.. higher risk, higher reward I guess. Suggestions? I find it's gas I'm waiting for, not minerals, when the larvae spawn. The roach warren finishes first, then the larvae, whereupon I'm at about 90-100 gas, having gone 13p13e and spent the first 100 on ling speed. EDIT: Is this likely to be because I'm not sending out a scouting drone, do you think? | ||
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Viruuus
Germany451 Posts
On August 26 2010 23:52 Newti wrote: If you guys are interested I can post a bunch of replays vs 600-750 Diamond players. Here is one where the Terran decided to get cute with 5 rax reaper: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64892-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant Again vs. Terran, this time Hellions (750 Diamond): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64896-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station Terran with Hellions again, it hits them really hard. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64903-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war (Got 5 or so more replays, just say if you want to see more. I can also edit them all into one post.) Hi Newt, i watched your replays and first of all i want to say thanks for providing them. Your execution of the initial build is quite good, however, you dont scout at all which was the concern of some of the ppl (if you do, will you have enough minerals?). Then your opponents: The guy on delta quadrant was terrible, he saw the roach warren, didnt make units most of the time, he had 2 reapers made when you had 5 roaches and 14 lings (but he had 400gas!! ). Funny however that ppl like him are DiamondThe guy in Scrapstation doesnt play that bad, he makes one big mistake, in that he doesnt suspect anything after he bunkers your natural and then doesnt scan your base, which imo is a must do. He couldnt really have made many marauders in the meantime, but this guy would probably also have lost against the regular baneling bust due to the lack of scouting 3rd game on Steppes: Again the guy bunkers your natural (btw thats where your 2 lings should go first, kill the scv there, might even pull a drone to make him think you are trying to expand!) Again your opponent is stupid enough to not scan or scout your base, even though youre not even TRYING to expand. This btw is the first game you are actually sending a drone to expand with your roaches, and its also the one where you cant do it, resulting in you not putting down your expansion in all 3 games I guess he also could have responded better to your attack, it seemed pretty close with his barrack/factory wallin, but still, well executed! | ||
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