"On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the top location, get the bottom gas first. On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the bottom location, get the top gas first."
It's confusing why people are getting such varied results with the same exact build. But I think either way, with gas on 15 you can't get ling speed until after the roaches.
I'm going to take another crack at it at lunchtime, getting the right-hand gas instead of the top, see what difference that makes. I can't see it making 15 seconds difference, but I'll give it a shot.
On August 27 2010 18:50 Umpteen wrote: I'm going to take another crack at it at lunchtime, getting the right-hand gas instead of the top, see what difference that makes. I can't see it making 15 seconds difference, but I'll give it a shot.
Yeah I doubt it's going to make up the difference between the 13 extractor and the 15 extractor, but it might make up the difference between your 12 extractor and the 13. Meaning you could get it on 13 if you choose the right-hand gas, as opposed to your 12 from the top gas.
And it might explain why some people have gas surpluses but others are slightly short, depending on the map, spawn point and gas chosen. I've not tested it though; just a thought.
I read a lot of hate in this thread OP, but I really like this build and im going to give it a shot... I like how its sort of economically safe and you still have a few options if the shit hits the fan.
This game is vs. Terran. He goes reaper Harass and I counter with 5RR. His bunker at the ramp holds off the 5RR (Bunker with 2-3 Reaper >>> Lings) and he has 2 Starports with tech lab running. I transition to Mutas while I get wrecked by cloaked Banshees and the game goes on for quite a while (I think he was a pretty bad player despite his 800 Diamond Rating): http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65588-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
Here is a replay that showcases how not-all-in this build is. The rush fails against a 5-Rax-Reaper Terran (900 pts) bacuse he immediately stops reaper production and goes for marauder; but it negates all his harass and forces him into Bio play. I then Transition into Muta/Ling/Bling to counter Bio and go macro mode. The game goes on for almost 30 Minutes with some nice TvZ midgame action. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/65600-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
By the way, i did run in trouble today when a protoss contained me with 2 pylons and a cannon. While I could break the contain, the toss had enough forces + a cannon at home to defend. I felt like I was significantly behind after this.
On August 27 2010 05:35 nodq wrote: WIth 13 pool and 15 OL i cant get lingspeed befor roaches, if i do, i cant get 5 roaches out because of missing gas. 13 pool and 13 gas makes no sense at all, thats more gas than i need, and it cuts my mins, and delays the expo you want to throw down after/during your push and your zerglings to keep up the pressure.
Best for me worked so far, doing 13 pool and 14 gas, it times out very perfectly.
13 pool drone drone 14 gas drone drone 15 OL zergling queen speed drone... 21 OL 5 roaches OL then adapt
you dont mention in this BO when you throw down the RW?
also in response to the guy above, i dont think build was designed for ZvZ.
yeh ofc latest when queen is half done, put down RW. mostly around 19-20 supply. depends how the scout is moving in your base. better dealy the RW for some seconds than let the scout see that you build it.
just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
On August 27 2010 22:34 NeKoBaKa wrote: just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
I never faced straight forge FE with this but I had a couple forge contain matches (2 pylon + cannon @ ramp). This build doesn't do best against any cannon build. If the protoss plays perfect in terms of cannon placement and walling, there is little you can do. So what I do is getting my 2nd up, drone for a bit and tech to t2 (keep your initial 5 roaches alive!!). I keep building Roaches while I do that and once I hit t2 I build a nydus and funnel around 15-20 Roaches + as many speedlings as I can into his main. I have yet to see a protoss come back from this (even if they go delayed Void Rays their main and a lot of drones go down).
On August 27 2010 22:34 NeKoBaKa wrote: just recently picked up on this build. seem to be having trouble in ZvP against a FE type of build. I guess it would be wise to adapt and change up after seeing the Forge being build at a choke. anyone else having trouble against Forge FE?
I never faced straight forge FE with this but I had a couple forge contain matches (2 pylon + cannon @ ramp). This build doesn't do best against any cannon build. If the protoss plays perfect in terms of cannon placement and walling, there is little you can do. So what I do is getting my 2nd up, drone for a bit and tech to t2 (keep your initial 5 roaches alive!!). I keep building Roaches while I do that and once I hit t2 I build a nydus and funnel around 15-20 Roaches + as many speedlings as I can into his main. I have yet to see a protoss come back from this (even if they go delayed Void Rays their main and a lot of drones go down).
Thanks for the quick reply Newti. I normally like to play a macro oriented game with an early expansion and a defensive / reactant type of early game. Playing a build like this will definitely help with variety in my play style.
Played around with the gas steal idea in YABOT, but I can't make it work: the build is just too tight on 13/13. Newti's replays show pretty much what you have to do to keep the timings correct: skip drones and the expansion. I'm just not willing to do that to delay his gas for 30s, even if it does make the rush stronger.
It works on the old 13/15 (getting ling speed after roaches), but I'm not thrilled with that either.
Ive used the 13/13 build vs an 800 diamond Terran who i think was playing pretty well, he scouted it, reacted good etc. Also in battles he has 200ish APM with seems to be ok imo, and his micro was existent at least.
another 800 points Diamond, this time protoss who is making pylong/cannons at my door, but its blistering sands...
On August 27 2010 11:29 Tergeron wrote: This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even.
it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it.
finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of.
especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door.
The unit mix is perfect enough to counter 4 gate and holds off 2 gate on short rush distance maps and crushes it on maps with a long rush distance, Stargate builds basically rely on you doing damage against a zerg player, which is hard to accomplish when they fit in extra queens, gas steals only make it weaker.
Any protoss can hold his ramp with a cannon or two and some sentries against this but the issue is that you can contain with a unit comp that gives you a huge advantage advantage until later on. You are so far ahead because of econ, the second he can grabs his nat you can grab a 3rd without any threat of retaliation. With proper scouting you will know if he is favoring robo or templar tech meaning you can either mix more roaches in or get a few corruptors.
What exactly are you supposed to do if you can not get a fast expo against zerg, how are you supposed to get one against zerg? In PvZ you basically rely on getting that expo up fast so you can get your t3 units to handle Hydra's. I would really love to know how I would supposedly deal with this build so I can get my expo up asap, because without it you can not beat Zerg.
To add to this very late it is very nice to know about since zerg lack early pressure builds. I am having good results mid diamond although it seems fragile against multiple marine terran openings this might be because I still might be terrible.
On August 27 2010 23:23 Viruuus wrote: the key to beating this build is sentries into 4 warpgates into more sentries. Sentries(with zeals/stalker) own roach/ling so hard, its not even funny
Proper micro and adding more lings wouldnt have too much trouble with Sentry supported units.
You start running into problems and eventually failing the push if you cant get your lings some room to work with. If he holds the choke with forcefields/Zealots and Stalkers in the back shooting at your roaches and lings you will soon face too many units to handle. Basically if you can't break in, you are on the backfoot and better get a LOT of lings and crawlers for his soon-to-be 4-gate. I had this happen to me only once, because most protoss will eventually make the mistake to move their blocking units and let the lings in.
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
You're STILL looking at this the wrong way.
It doesn't matter how fast you get the 125 gas, as long as you have the 125 gas when the roach warren pops. Unless you're starting your RW early and not going with the larva pop (so basically not doing this build) there's no possible way you're getting roaches out any earlier than I would.
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second.
Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again.
My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing.
This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas.
I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner?
I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files:
Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21.
I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly.
You're STILL looking at this the wrong way.
It doesn't matter how fast you get the 125 gas, as long as you have the 125 gas when the roach warren pops. Unless you're starting your RW early and not going with the larva pop (so basically not doing this build) there's no possible way you're getting roaches out any earlier than I would.
I'll check out the replays and see what's up
Looks like I must have been skipping speed for 14 and 15, you're right.
Still, if you time out everything right with 13/13 you will have exactly the amount of gas and minerals needed when the larva pop. 13/12 is unnecessary and has a pretty large mineral hit, especially if you send a drone scout out.
after tinkering around I finally had a game going where this was about to happen but my wonderful laptop overheated and shutdown, re-attempting now
if done right the 13/13 will be slightly faster cause there will be no delays (your last roach was going to pop around 5:08-9)
I don't know if my opponents were doing this right, but I fought this twice yesterday against ~700 zergs and it was so easy to kill. I did my standard rax fact tech tank build (think TvP in BW) with a rax/fact/ebay wall and they couldn't do anything. Even on steppes my tank spawns fast enough to ward them off, especially since the weakest component in my wall has like 800 hp.
And then afterwards I just play really safe, get to 3 thors and attack, and I still haven't lost.
I wonder if there's a way to beat my style of play with roach rush.
EPT
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