New patch slows down the toss early game in theory, so it should help. However, I know a lot of tossers are worried about 6 pool now, and might get an earlier gate than normal.

Stibbs

Australia3 Posts

August 28 2010 14:44 GMT

#423

I've been using this strategy, only had it win outright once so far (Was vs a terran who decided to try and hellion harass).

I love the flexibility, how easy it is to transition to muta/hydras etc, plus it generally gives you early map control.

Awesome strat

I think this is my first ever post on here, lurked for quite some time now..

SixSigma

United States16 Posts

August 28 2010 15:25 GMT

#424

I think that this build has the potential to become the standard against Toss after the first patch. I think it was already strongest against Toss in 1.0x. I can see the build time nerf really hurting their early game against Zerg.

The other thing this could lead to is Zerg finding itself in a "Terran-like" situation against Toss where we control the game flow early game. If we want to expand, there won't be much the Toss can do. If we want to do the 5RR, they have to do everything they can to prepare.

I think I'm going to LOVE this build in the upcoming patch.

Scrimpton

United Kingdom465 Posts

August 28 2010 17:04 GMT

#425

Thanks for this thread.

My fiance just got the game today, and just from watching some Day9, and reading this thread, (and a little bit of QXC's build order tester) she managed to win 4 games straight in her placement matches, and is in platinum in her first day of owning the game

mango_destroyer

Canada3914 Posts

August 28 2010 17:59 GMT

#426

I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.

Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.

Scrimpton

United Kingdom465 Posts

August 28 2010 19:06 GMT

#427

On August 29 2010 02:59 mango_destroyer wrote:
I signed up just to thank fist and newtie who optimized it with the 13/13 BO. I tried it for 9 straight games yesterday and won 8 of them. The one loss was against a terran who turtled insanely(triple supply depot wall) and I didn`t scout well or use blings against marines and tank push.

Keep in mind I am only in gold, but I think this is pretty good for lower leagues so I can comment on that. Pretty flexible too.

Whats this 13/13?

or which page can i find the info out on?

would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page

maJes

United Kingdom186 Posts

August 28 2010 21:03 GMT

#428

Been trying the build out for a few games, it's working out a lot better than the opening I was using before. Even when you don't do that much damage the fact that you have a safer expo out really helps.

Thanks again for this Fist, and thanks to everyone submitting more info/variants!

P00RKID

United States424 Posts

August 28 2010 21:34 GMT

#429

On August 28 2010 23:40 Oconomist wrote:
New patch slows down the toss early game in theory, so it should help. However, I know a lot of tossers are worried about 6 pool now, and might get an earlier gate than normal.

If toss are really going to be getting earlyer gateways as a response to that patch, I think I would experiment with double gas stealing.

mango_destroyer

Canada3914 Posts

August 28 2010 22:04 GMT

#430

On August 29 2010 04:06 Scrimpton wrote:

Show nested quote +

Whats this 13/13?

or which page can i find the info out on?

would be cool if the OP updated the build if he's improved upon it. on the front page

Page 15...newti`s 2nd post on that page.

Edit- I think the updated build is on the first page now.

archon256

United States363 Posts

August 29 2010 00:28 GMT

#431

I'm having difficulty transitioning against a M&M opening. If there's even one Marauder at the wall with 3-4 Marines I end up failing to break the wall and failing to the subsequent push. Good success against virtually every other T opening though.

RC_Fixer

United States21 Posts

August 29 2010 03:58 GMT

#432

I am a Diamond Player currently Laddering as much as I can and let me tell you If you scout that they are teching and you deny scouting this build can be deadly and with the upcoming 1.1 Patch an Protoss Nerf I can see this becoming standard against Protoss! So cheers for helping out the Zerg :D

HomicidaL

United States283 Posts

August 29 2010 04:10 GMT

#433

I have always been fast expanding or one base muta since the roach nerf in beta. I do alot of practice games agiast mid level diamond and plat players and they are so surprised by the effectiness of this build. This build has completely changed my thoughts about roaches and makes into a very nice roach hydra transition for the mid game.

HardcoreBilly

United States222 Posts

August 29 2010 04:56 GMT

#434

Hm, the fast stargate one was kind of deceiving. I expected it to be about how to counteract a fast Void Ray. From the looks of it, I don't think you would have survived it if it was indeed one.

xtcz

United States16 Posts

August 29 2010 05:17 GMT

#435

On August 29 2010 07:04 mango_destroyer wrote:

Show nested quote +

Page 15...newti`s 2nd post on that page.

Edit- I think the updated build is on the first page now.

Updated build is on first page. However, back on p. 15, newti, you asked if the earlier 2 drones was much better than drones later on? Was that ever decided?

efekti

Finland1 Post

August 29 2010 10:12 GMT

#436

Without the 2 early drones you get your roaches and zergling speed out much faster. But of course your economy will suffer a little. So just remember to do them afterwards with the expo or after that if you want your speedlings backing up the roaches.

Newti

Switzerland71 Posts

August 29 2010 10:24 GMT

#437

On August 29 2010 14:17 xtcz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Updated build is on first page. However, back on p. 15, newti, you asked if the earlier 2 drones was much better than drones later on? Was that ever decided?

Ok so this is what I have come up with after playing a lot of games with this build.
The build in the OP works if the following is true:
- You execute the build order perfectly with no mistakes
- You Larva are near the minerals (drones don't have to run around the hatch)
- You do not get harassed

What I do most of the time is cutting the drone after the first injection. This allows for minor errors in the build order and you can cope with worker harass. It also makes up for spawn locations where the Larva are on the other side of the Hatchery. Plus you get to keep that Larva to build an additional Zergling.

I suggest you try for yourself if you can squeeze 2, 1 or no drones after you started the Roach Warren. One Drone works for me.

If you want to gas steal check out my replays a couple pages back for a slightly different BO.

lovewithlea

168 Posts

August 29 2010 11:03 GMT

#438

this is just great, almost no one knows how to handle it. and most think, a roaches, i just go 5 stalker and push, BAM surrounded by speedlings as soon as he pushes out..
so much fun

gonkulator

10 Posts

August 29 2010 13:56 GMT

#439

I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:

- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.

- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.

Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.

I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.

So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.

pilsken

Germany441 Posts

August 29 2010 14:02 GMT

#440

So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.

Build more stuff. Keep your money low. Don't forget to build workers. Don't get supplyblocked. Your losses have almost certainly nothing to do with the strat he or you chose.