EPTbtw what does LP stand for? Loser Play? Not sure was that a failed smilie or was he raging
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 24
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Kauhu
Finland15 Posts
btw what does LP stand for? Loser Play? Not sure was that a failed smilie or was he raging | ||
|
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Even if this turns out to get shut down totally in a month due to the metagame developing responses, I'm very happy to see some fresh openings for zerg! 14 gas 14 pool every game every matchup as zerg is getting stupid :\ | ||
|
nihoh
Australia978 Posts
| ||
|
RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On August 31 2010 06:01 Highrock wrote: Especially on 4 player maps I do the 14-13, yeah. But on 2-player maps the OL usually gets there in time to see anything dangerous, and the following overlords will spot most cheese. It's definitely mildly risky but tbh I'm not sure somebody could really punish me for it. Even if they're popping straight stalkers or marauders I use the roaches as much to scout the build as do damage, and they're always a nice unit to have: and the best part of this build is the ability to do a well-timed ling follow-up.I see, I had the same problem as Demi90D ( and went for 14 -> 13, thanks for that ) and now I see the diffrence from what I was doing to what RampancyTW is doing, RampancyTW is not scouting on 13. I seem to remmber scouting as part of the build but I don't see it anymore. With the 14-13 I can have the 5 roaches at 5:25, you're way gets them at 5:05. Don't you think the scan is worth the 20 seconds delay? remmber that scanning a can show you an marauder or stalker build that will demolish your roaches ahead of time, or you can use your probe for gas steal or even setting a proxy hatch in his blind spot if you are feeling crazy. | ||
|
Thraundil
Denmark278 Posts
For all the people saying their gas timing is not 100% sharp. I am by no means perfect either, for example my drone queue is a bit sloppy whilst scouting. What I do is 14 pool, then 13 gas (ie. gas up imidiately after putting down the pool). I usually have enough mojo for both speed and roaches doing this. So general BO is 9 OL 14 pool 13 gas 15 OL 15 queen + 2 lings to ward off their scout then scout a bit themselves (helpful to sneak a peek up the opponents ramp). Queen halfway done: Warren. Drones up to 20, then OL. When warren and inject pops, queue 5 roaches, and an OL more. Then inject, using this inject for lings. Usually, aside from the very short travel distances, this ends me up with 5 roaches and 12-14 lings arriving outside my opponents base at the same time. Have tried the 13 pool 13 gas a few times, but since I lack the pristine timing (or well. Mostly lack it ) I find I like the 14 pool 13 gas a lot better. Am now up to 845 point diamond. I find this works amazling vs Protoss. The only ones that really beat me are the ones who either are a long travel distance away = stalkers when I get there, or the ones going early sentry with a few stalkers and manage to block their ramp. I end up losing to these most of the time, because even if I do pull back I find myself a bit too far behind on econ to pull through since this kind of opponent often follows up with a big push 3-4 minutes later, that I am at that point in no position to repel. Build is a bit more weakish vs Terran. If they have marauders at their wall when roaches get there, its pretty tough to recover from since he will then often hit me with MM fast, and I dont have the macro at that point to pull a win off. How do you guys usually react in these situations? I find if I get the units to defend, my economy is crippled and his 2nd push will overwhelm me. But if I get the econ up to deal with a big midgame push, then an early game push runs me over. Both of which are pretty easy to scout for a terran with scan, or a protoss who often gets immortals out once seeing my roaches. | ||
|
gumbo_cola
United States1 Post
| ||
|
Kolvacs
Canada1203 Posts
I use it against my buddies all the time! Just starting to smooth it out so I can use it more effectively on ladder. | ||
|
KezseN
Singapore1450 Posts
| ||
|
DeVo
Germany71 Posts
| ||
|
Phyrion
United States18 Posts
On August 29 2010 23:02 pilsken wrote: Build more stuff. Keep your money low. Don't forget to build workers. Don't get supplyblocked. Your losses have almost certainly nothing to do with the strat he or you chose. If I reach the P's base and see cannons blocking the entrance, I assume ( usually correct ) VR's coming. I immediately tech to mutas asap as mutas do really well against VR's if you micro and move away before they charge up and then move back in against them. This happens a lot on DO and I usually win. | ||
|
Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
On August 31 2010 05:30 Malminos wrote: if there are some you particularly like, I'd like to see some of those replays just for kicks. I will see what replays i have saved and i will post some. Today was also a good day for 5RR - 8 wins out of 10 games. The two losses were to terran players. The first game my push failed, cause he had marauders. He had scanned 5 seconds after i denied his scout and saw the roach warren - pretty smart. I switched to muta, got a third base and macroed hard. At one point he pushed with 4-5 thors, marines and marauders. I had about 25 mutas, a bunch of speedlings and roaches and managed to stop him, but with heavy losses. I probably could have base raced - so many mutas can kill buildings pretty fast. But then it seemed he was able to gather his army faster (damn mules), destroyed my gold, then my natural and by that time it was obvious i was gonna lose. I will post the replay later, cause i need a third eye view and criticism. And the second loss is the reason for me posting now - it was on Scrap Station. Has anyone tried 5RR on this map? I thought the long distance would negate any rush, so i decided to FE and go speedlings. However he was able to cripple me with a kamikaze hellions-kill-drones fest, soon followed by a gazillion marauders. Honestly, what can u do against a hellion/marauder push? Anything but mutas is doomed, imo. I am yet to lose to protoss, even on Steppes of War, where they 100% of the time go for 2 gate push. I change the BO a bit - sometimes 12 pool, other times 11 pool and the roaches pop up just in time to stop their initial push. Then my counter push is unstoppable. | ||
|
Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
 Best was against a T going fast banshee. i ended up smashing in and he lifted to the island so i played the contain game and plotted lots of corruptor/broodlord [edit] Another reason i LOVE this build. Just played a ZvT on lost temple. ended up scouting quick 2 rax. later popped my 1st ling pair up his ramp for a quick peek and spotted a 3rd rax and a bunker. I then aborted the push (didn't make any roaches) and swapped to macro mode getting lair etc. game eventually went to muta play to cripple him (while being banshee harrassed back) then shifting more into ling/bling/infestor when he shifted to more marine heavy comp. Was so much fun. even got a rage quit after i crushed his army for the third time :D | ||
|
Rudiment
United States174 Posts
| ||
|
Icx
Belgium853 Posts
But overall I really like the opening, definatly not something I would do every game, but I will keep using it from time to time, and incorporate it into my bo list. Because I am getting so tired of for example tosses just teching (or doing an ultra fast 4-gate) off off like 1-2 zealots+1 stalker or something stupid like that, and I am glad that I have found like a good way to punish them for that, and scare them into not teching as fast or just generally make them watch out more. The mixed results thing I said earlier actually comes from going against T. It feels like everytime they see me take the gas early (altough it isn't that different from the "standard" 14 gas 14 pool) they most of the time will just get a bunker or like some extra defences. Or maybe I am to scared to actually push up? But when I see like a bunker with 4 marines behind a supply depot (and mosty the other side walled with a factory or so depending on the map) I kinda back off, because I don't feel like 5 roaches can bust trough a supply depot + a bunker to let my lings be able to come in. And when that happens I generally also feel like I am starting to get behind and if I don't pump drones really hard after the roaches that I will completely fall behind, and I have to play defensive again and he follows it up with like a big push including some marauders. But that may also be me making mistakes in making drones at the wrong points later on. | ||
|
Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On September 01 2010 10:41 Icx wrote: You're right that pushing on a bunker'd ramp with your roaches would definitely be a bad idea. Or maybe I am to scared to actually push up? But when I see like a bunker with 4 marines behind a supply depot (and mosty the other side walled with a factory or so depending on the map) I kinda back off, because I don't feel like 5 roaches can bust trough a supply depot + a bunker to let my lings be able to come in. And when that happens I generally also feel like I am starting to get behind and if I don't pump drones really hard after the roaches that I will completely fall behind, and I have to play defensive again and he follows it up with like a big push including some marauders. But that may also be me making mistakes in making drones at the wrong points later on. Against a terran that knows the roaches are coming I don't think this should get you a quick win unless they are extremely greedy and/or make some serious mistakes. Be prepared to drone hard after roaches and get the expansion up. You shouldn't necessarily be behind as long as you don't suicide your roaches. I find the initial 5-roach most useful for simply keeping the terran honest and hopefully gleaning some information from the terran's reaction during that awkward pre-lair phase when scouting can be extremely difficult. Just seeing that he was forced to bunker to defend your push is usually enough to tell that he's probably teching heavily. If you want more than that, try sacrificing an overlord while you're poking at the front. A bunkering terran probably won't have the spare marines to chase your overlord down before it sees something. | ||
|
MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
How much are you using this build now that you're up around 1100-1200 range? I started hitting some walls with it vP who wanted to 3 gate robo/4 gate around 1k. (I'm at like 920ish now after tanking several games) If they get that sentry out, you can count on a couple more stalkers being up in time to deflect the push, putting you in (in my opinion) a less than ideal situation for defending their push. (Which will literally be coming in 1-2 minutes after you pull back. Also - while this beats reaper cuteness, T just transitions to marauder so easily around 1k, that I've had to move away from using this build at all when I scout tech lab on the rax. I've been opting to just cancel the RW (or not drop it) and just expo immediately in hopes of being able to defend with just speedlings. Would love some feedback from the higher tiers. | ||
|
JohnGreggor
Canada148 Posts
And so begins again the search for a ZvP build other than hydras. | ||
|
Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
| ||
|
Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On September 01 2010 11:27 MrBitter wrote: Fist: are you still watching this thread? How much are you using this build now that you're up around 1100-1200 range? I started hitting some walls with it vP who wanted to 3 gate robo/4 gate around 1k. (I'm at like 920ish now after tanking several games) I am still watching this thread sporadically. Been very laid back about it as I've been impressed that the community has taken it as their own and made excellent improvements. I still use the 5RR vs every T and P as I'm comfortable with the dynamics it creates and enjoy the free wins now and again. It's also fun to watch my opponents who have died to this build and preemptively lay bunkers without even seeing the RW. =) If you're not comfortable with the resulting dynamics, by all means don't do it every game. If they get that sentry out, you can count on a couple more stalkers being up in time to deflect the push, putting you in (in my opinion) a less than ideal situation for defending their push. (Which will literally be coming in 1-2 minutes after you pull back. In my experience, sentries' force field has almost never stopped me from winning immediately. I just wait it out (sometimes several times), barge in, and win against his now craptacular non-energy sentries. I actually think early sentries hurt P as they could have been a stalker or two. A sentry's FF only lasts ~15s (10s on faster?), so it's not like several stalkers pop out in the meantime. REGARDING DEFENDING A PUSH RIGHT AFTER THE FAILED RUSH I've noticed that while I want lings, I'm limited by larvae and not minerals/gas. So the best course of action is to put drones back on gas and produce roaches. If during the rush you see minerals getting high and you can't spend them on larvae, just make extra queens and/or put drones back on gas. That'll help as well. The 5RR requires a surprising amount of APM at times. Also - while this beats reaper cuteness, T just transitions to marauder so easily around 1k, that I've had to move away from using this build at all when I scout tech lab on the rax. I've been opting to just cancel the RW (or not drop it) and just expo immediately in hopes of being able to defend with just speedlings. Interesting. I see where you're coming from, but I feel it's still best to force that marauder transition by continuing with the 5RR. Once reapers get in large enough numbers they get hard to stop, even with roaches. YMMV. Also, I've had success attacking even if they have marauders (depending on how many and if they have concussive shell or not). | ||
|
Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On September 01 2010 11:37 Subversion wrote: been using this build and i really like it - although it needs really really crisp timing to get it perfect! This. To everyone: I believe I have watched every replay in this thread (and many others that do the 5RR in other threads), and often the timings are way off but people still blame it on the build. The second most common problem is the roach micro (or lack of), and the third is generally missed injections. Practice, practice, practice. The build really only changes vs an early 2-gate (make a few lings early to stall). | ||
| ||
