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On September 03 2010 00:33 xtcz wrote:
Platinum Zerg, trying to move into Diamond. (Hurgh.)
ZvT. A bit more problematic, especially when they decide to pump out more Marauders than Marines. This requires a bit more precision on my part, as more than once, I'll breach but I'll fail to keep up the Zergling pressure in subsequent waves. Once they rebuild that Depot, it'll be tough to get back in. At that point, I'll have taken the my expansion, and eventually move onto macro up from there. Map control and mobility will usually net me the win, but I hate dragging matches out like this. For heavier numbers of Marauders, do you all just give up and pull back your Roaches, or keep going in?
OP suggests that if you see heavy marauders pull back everything to your choke do a round of drones, and begin macro mode, because you'll LOL lose if you don't.
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This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
I am starting to like this build more and more against Zerg. Initially, I hated surrendering the map to the opponent who chose speedlings but now I am starting to take advantage of the small defensive holes that appear when the opponent expands or starts his spire. Generally, I have found that continuing to mass roaches behind you roach wall is more successful than trying to move out of roaches after the early game. If you make a push at the right time, even speedlings will fall the huge mass of roaches. If my opponent went roaches as well I play very defensively and blitz mutas as he will have no answer if I arrive in his base before his mutas are out.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)?
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On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote:Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
I am starting to like this build more and more against Zerg. Initially, I hated surrendering the map to the opponent who chose speedlings but now I am starting to take advantage of the small defensive holes that appear when the opponent expands or starts his spire. Generally, I have found that continuing to mass roaches behind you roach wall is more successful than trying to move out of roaches after the early game. If you make a push at the right time, even speedlings will fall the huge mass of roaches. If my opponent went roaches as well I play very defensively and blitz mutas as he will have no answer if I arrive in his base before his mutas are out.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)? What specific terran builds have you been having trouble with lately? A day ago I played an 1100 5-rax-reaper terran and won soundly despite canceling my lair at 99% on accident. Against early marauder/marine specifically you need to be prepared to fall back on mass speedlings and not overdrone your expansion.
I've been using 13pool/13 gas and I feel the combination of roaches+speedlings keeps me very safe from any early pressure. I typically fear fast banshee the most with this build, but at least I can usually see that coming when roaches pressure the wall, and I sacrifice an overlord.
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@SixSigma:
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push
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On September 03 2010 06:33 RampancyTW wrote:
@SixSigma:
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push
This actually sounds really cool. Keep spotters outside your base so he'll have problems viewing the army size and I think this is pretty decent.
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very solid build over all. Even in 2v2 situations, early roach is great counter to early reapers/zealots/marine combos. if your opp is light units heavy, eg (lings, marine, zealot/sentrie) throw in some banelings too.
![[image loading]](http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/08/baneling.jpg)
baneling: "i'm great with marines, lings, and workers :3"
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noob here with questions
what am i supposed to do when protoss put few canons in their base?
retreat?
Any way to end the game quicker instead of dragging on to 30+ mins
Saw the OP replays. There are a few games with the older 13/15 BO, but made 6 roaches and late speed updrade. Is it better to have one more roach or the speed early?
Thanks
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On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote:
This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1.
Terran on the other hand are a completely different story. I basically have given up on using this against Terran. Terran generally plays heavy bio these days and that means there is no way to stand against a couple marauders and marines early. If you do commit to the wall and die without inflicting economic damage you will be dead from the inevitable push in <5 minutes. Speedling fast expand into ling/bling/roach/muta seems far superior here.
Does anyone have any advice against Terran? Am I just doing this wrong (I use the 13 pool 15 gas version btw)?
I'm having the same experiences in both cases. I'm going with a 14/14 now, as it keeps open the option of gas stealing against a teching/4gate protoss.
Vs Protoss it almost seems unfair if they are going for 4gate or VR as you win a crazy amount of the time (and this is vs 1100+). It's almost to where they have to 2gate just to live.
Note: I've changed my stance a little, and I now put down one spine if I see the two gate with stored chrono boost. It uses less larvae than hatching several lings.
Terrans have figured out the secret to stopping the 5RR: just build everything at your choke as if you were up against a baneling bust. The trade-off is that it gives their tech away, but in return they can live through any early zerg attack. There are a lot of people who still haven't figured that out yet, but that number will drop. Heck, I even had a few immediate wins vs T today. I still think it'll be viable at some points in time, but I'm trending away from using it every game vs T.
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On September 03 2010 06:50 Andre112 wrote:
noob here with questions
what am i supposed to do when protoss put few canons in their base?
retreat?
Any way to end the game quicker instead of dragging on to 30+ mins
Saw the OP replays. There are a few games with the older 13/15 BO, but made 6 roaches and late speed updrade. Is it better to have one more roach or the speed early?
Thanks
If he cannons, your best bet is to take your expansion and out macro him and beat him in the mid/late game with your superior econ.
It's risky for you to try to end the game in < 30 min if hes playing super defensive with cannons in his base.... you can try all-in mass roach with nydus tunnel on 1 base. Get the lair, after lair finishes, research roach speed, and get a nydus tunnel, and just build as many roachs as you can to bum rush him. This will work great if he only has cannons near the front and is unprepared.
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I used this twice and beat terran twice, but lost to protoss twice as well. My problem with protoss was that I roach rushed it was successful in breaking the wall, but then i would see my base under attack by one-three void rays. what can i do to make sure this DOESNT happen. its very frustrating and since i have no anti-air that early, theres not much i can do.
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if you get the ext at 13 and then the pool at 13 you can get 6 roaches instead of 5 at the expense of about 4-5 seconds
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On September 03 2010 13:14 Tahm wrote:
I used this twice and beat terran twice, but lost to protoss twice as well. My problem with protoss was that I roach rushed it was successful in breaking the wall, but then i would see my base under attack by one-three void rays. what can i do to make sure this DOESNT happen. its very frustrating and since i have no anti-air that early, theres not much i can do. It sounds to me like your roaches are late.
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With decent timing my roaches are popping at about 4:57. All these so called "perfect" timings in here aren't perfect, people are building drones late and such 
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Interesting how people are having more trouble vs Terran.
I find I win more outright vs Terran with this build. But I guess maybe people haven't wised up to it yet (I'm only 600 Diamond).
I find its pretty easy to break down a depot and get in, and once I've done that the lings pwn.
I find a good Toss is able to hold this off with a 4gate, but maybe thats just poor micro on my part. In any case, if he holds it off I expand, make a ton of units and drop like 4 crawlers (literally) which is enough to hold off the massive counter-push that inevitably comes. After that its muta for map control, hydras in the mix and usually a guaranteed win if you don't wait for him to get a ton of collossi.
As for using this in a ZvZ I actually haven't tried that. Although to the guy earlier who said he blocks the ramp and techs to mutas, I say tech to Hydra instead. A good Z will see you blocking the choke like that and immediately try tech to Muta to match you. A 1-base muta build can only get you like 6-8 mutas and not much else. If you then do a timing push with +1 Roach ball with a bunch of less expensive hydras, you can roll through his whole base and his Mutas just drop like flies.
Anyways, I'm having a lot more success with this build since finally getting my timings better, its actually quite a bitch to get the timings perfect on this build, its so damn precise!
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so I found out a way to get 6 roaches at 5:04. Changes to the 13/13 are bolded
9 ovi
14 ext
13pool
15 ovi
Drone
Queen
Ling
Drone
Drone
Warren
Ling Speed
Ovi, when queen pops inject
I take the first drone off of gas at 136ish, 2nd drone at mid 140's, and last done when they bring in the final gas for 150.
reinject
6 roaches (6th roach is a split second slower)
With this changes you cannot spare a scouting drone. This means using this variation would be good for 1v1 maps since ovi scout SHOULD be enough. I imagine scrap station is a good one since you get an ovi in their base really early and the wide ramp. Splitting workers and being on point on making drones and tech buildings on time needed as the timing is really tight.
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On September 03 2010 15:14 ZodiakLucien wrote:
I take the first drone off of gas at 136ish, 2nd drone at mid 140's, and last done when they bring in the final gas for 126.
Did u mean the last one for 150??
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yes, my mistake I will fix it
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On September 03 2010 15:37 ZodiakLucien wrote:
yes, my mistake I will fix it
Why do you bother getting ling speed when doing a 6 roach rush though?
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On September 03 2010 15:45 Mearis wrote:Why do you bother getting ling speed when doing a 6 roach rush though?
Adding 75 minerals and 25 gas to an early push is not game changing.
Just because he's adding another roach doesn't make it an all roach build.
The idea is the same. he's just saying that he can squeeze in another roach with that build 
Or at least I think...
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On September 03 2010 15:45 Mearis wrote:Why do you bother getting ling speed when doing a 6 roach rush though?
Because once you're in, lings are the best unit to reinforce and do the damage. Especially when they start making maruaders/stalkers to counter the roaches, which are probably hurt by that point.
Also it keeps the build safe for if your push completly fails.
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EPT
