EPTHe is either going to open on reapers/hellions or 1-1-1.
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 27
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Mearis
Italy76 Posts
He is either going to open on reapers/hellions or 1-1-1. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10834 Posts
On September 03 2010 03:11 SixSigma wrote: This build is proving to be just ridiculous against protoss. I have won 9 games in a row now vs Toss and 6 of them were outright (~800 diamond). The three games I had to pull back I could safely expand and move to Hydras (if they were going robo they were dead already) to rape their gateway units. I can see this build becoming the gold standard after the zealot build time nerf. I really don't see how Toss can live through this without a canon wall off post 1.1. The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch. It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story  .But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^. It's damn strong on Blistering Sands tho. | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
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SixSigma
United States16 Posts
On September 03 2010 18:46 Velr wrote: The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch. It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story .But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^. It's damn strong on Blistering Sands tho. Yeah, I think the surprise factor is a big part of it. There is no doubt the meta will start shifting if people continue to get the results I have been getting. Still, I find that the Toss player needs excellent micro with forcefield to stop the initial push. | ||
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ImGonnaRideYou
53 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 03 2010 18:11 Mearis wrote: Yes but it really really hurts your economy, and it means you cannot even afford an early scout. I'd rather just get the roaches early, then switch to ling speed if necessary - besides, unless the terran wastes a scan early on or you really fuck up and let him scout, who opens on marauders zvt in diamond? He is either going to open on reapers/hellions or 1-1-1. I have seen a lot of marauder openings ... 900 diamond playing against slightly favored people regularly. Never have had my warren scouted by terran. The ling speed and the expansion make this not an all in. I win a majority of my games because of the speedlings hitting a bunch of marauder/tank/stalker. I have actually also transitioned the build into baneling bust vs Terran as they often go marauder heavy with marine support so ling baneling can annihilate them. As to the void ray issue, your roaches are late. They should hit his base a little before first void ray comes out, you can usually do econ damage and while the void ray kills your roaches, you build a couple extra queens. | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
On September 04 2010 00:15 Sixes wrote: As to the void ray issue, your roaches are late. They should hit his base a little before first void ray comes out, you can usually do econ damage and while the void ray kills your roaches, you build a couple extra queens. This :D When the voidray pops out (sometimes it doesn't if they tried to hide the starport and you snipe the pylon) it needs to help mop up in his base of he runs the risk of being overrun and dying anyways. That buys you the time for extra queens and soem spore crawlers (especially since your mineral income is pretty decent after pulling drones off gas). On a slightly related note i'm wondering how DT rushing would fare against this build. Had a guy try it on me but i ended up sniping the pylons powering his warpgates moments before the shrine finished. Assuming the DT got out it'd mop up the lings/roaches a lot faster and i'm not sure how well queens fare against DTs. Don't think it would neccasarily help the toss get back in the game, but would be fun to theorycraft about at least. I can post a replay of the game where he almost got DTs out if you guys want? | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
Also, make an in base hatchery if those minerals get high. Especially against a 4 gating toss, you get gas back (and get to hydra) but get another hatch for more lings, they generally chew through gateway armies that aren't 60%+ zealot. I need to make some form of gamereplay account to be able to upload replays :/ I definitely have several vP games where they barely hold off the initial push but I just pummel them with 2-3 hatch zergling for 10 minutes and they die. | ||
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Bobo_XIII
United States429 Posts
On September 04 2010 00:36 Undercroft wrote: This :D When the voidray pops out (sometimes it doesn't if they tried to hide the starport and you snipe the pylon) it needs to help mop up in his base of he runs the risk of being overrun and dying anyways. That buys you the time for extra queens and soem spore crawlers (especially since your mineral income is pretty decent after pulling drones off gas). On a slightly related note i'm wondering how DT rushing would fare against this build. Had a guy try it on me but i ended up sniping the pylons powering his warpgates moments before the shrine finished. Assuming the DT got out it'd mop up the lings/roaches a lot faster and i'm not sure how well queens fare against DTs. Don't think it would neccasarily help the toss get back in the game, but would be fun to theorycraft about at least. I can post a replay of the game where he almost got DTs out if you guys want? please do so  | ||
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xtcz
United States16 Posts
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On September 04 2010 11:08 xtcz wrote: Sooo, how do you handle a 2 gate? I attempted it against a 2 gate, lost to mass Stalkers. Couldn't macro up enough in time, was against a Diamond Toss. how many stalkers were there out of 2 gates? when your roaches get to the opponents base if you see stalkers then you have a choice. pump lings and push in, or fall back and defend/macro. hydras and lings both own stalkers, its the roaches that have a problem with them. ive found sending 6 or so lings in front of your roaches to soak some damage can buy you enough time to kill a pylon, after which you send the rest of your lings through. ive had the toss player scout my roaches and pump stalker. you need to scout to see what his army is made of and build the appropriate counter unit. | ||
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xtcz
United States16 Posts
Please let me know if I just purely sucked or what. Not a long game at all. Also, he's kind of a d-bag.  You'll see what I mean.![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145749.jpg) Comments/criticisms welcome. I'd love to know what I did wrong. | ||
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RScott
United States15 Posts
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Frunkis
United States146 Posts
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On September 04 2010 13:38 Frunkis wrote: Roaches do much better against zealots than zerglings.What do I do if I see protoss going 2 gate zealots? Should I continue the build or make lots of lings or what? | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 03 2010 18:46 Velr wrote: The *easy* counter for Protoss on next to all Maps is to build 2 Sentries + Stalkers or a rather fast Robo for 1 Immortal inestad of the Stalkers. He doesn't need many Units. Or a Cannon. As soon as Protosses will get these early sentries again, this build will lose most of it's punch. It just hardcounters the "fotm" builds Protosses are doing right now, even in Beta it could be held off by Protoss and the Roaches back then were a diffrent story .But yeah, it opens up the game very nicely, it's not as strong as many people make it out to be here and is more or less just profiting on the fact, that most protosses don't even think that a Zerg could be aggressive that early ^^. It's damn strong on Blistering Sands tho. Very true. On the other hand the build at the very least forces some form of mid game (or gives zerg a win). It has massively helped me with my ZvP because I had issues with 2/4 gate pushes. This shuts down the 2 gate completely and is a good start to countering any 4 gate (roach warren up, expand down in a timely manner). I agree that sentries counter it but if you force toss to FF his own ramp, that is already a good thing. Sentries also slow down the tech a lot (they are great to mix with zealots in a 4 gate push but very gas heavy if trying to tech). I have had great success against Terran by the way. I need to sign up to one of these replay hosting sites ... generally goes 5 roach push, he either dies or has marauders (I have also shut down reapers by this point) then the marauders/marines/occasional tank try to push and get eaten alive by ling/bling, the game then ends on a counter, a bling bust or a ton of mutas. | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145788.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145791.jpg) The goal of the first build is to win the game outright. Metabolic boost is delayed in favor of 2 more roaches, which i think makes it much more difficult for the protoss. Even if he FF the ramp, they can sit there and kill zealots. If he has more stalkers, send 2 roaches to follow them, the others will kill pylons. By that time a batch of zerglings should be arriving. The second build is especially for SoW, but it can easily be used on other maps too. Here your first 4 roaches pop up 20 seconds earlier, the fifth one is delayed only by 5 seconds. This absolutely destroys early protoss pressure, even on a short map like SoW. Both builds may be considered an all-in, because they do not include a second hatch, but i seriously doubt that the initial push can be stopped in more than 1/10 games. I think it is possible to shave off a few more seconds here and there, but even in the current state things are happening pretty fast. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145796.jpg) And here is a quick game on SoW against terran using the second build. He goes for marauders, which is the best counter in this case, but i am still able to break the wall. If he had moved his scvs to repair, things would have been different though. The supply depot took exactly 10 ingame seconds to fall down, which i think is enough to commence with the repairing. ---------------- Edit: So, it actually turns out that sentries + zealots + good FF easily stop this build on larger maps. Therefore, it is very important NOT to skip the expand, cause if the protoss masses zealots + sentries it is basically GG, if you stay on one base. But it has to be noted, that i practiced with a friend, who knew exactly what i was going to do. In ladder there is a good chance that a large number of protoss players will not prepare for this rush. | ||
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Eleclight
Finland70 Posts
I'll try and learn to execute this build smoothly from now on. Hopefully it'll help me get into Diamond. Here's my first taste of the build against a Zerg player (Platinum game). I've had a lot of trouble in ZvZ recently but this build seems to work rather well. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145846.jpg) | ||
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Exquisito
United States55 Posts
I think I've won 6 or so in a row since implementing the 5RR, after foundering as a mid-level bronze. Even though my timing is usually off (when do I spawn that 5th overlord?), I am seeing good results. One game lasted a bit longer when a terran had a factory/barracks wall instead of depots, and rushed for banshees. I still managed to break down the barracks when I brought the few zerglings in to help. Those first couple banshees fended off the rush, but not before I dealt a major blow to his economy. The rest of the game was just my turtling with a few spores and letting my macro advantage usher in the mutalisk finisher. Another not so spectacular result was against mass speedling zerg who countered before I could prepare. The result was an epic base trading race where I won only thanks to the broodlings that spawned from my last few dead buildings! He gg-ed when I had naught but a half-health hatchery, 5 roaches, and 15 minerals. It really does feel good to punish people for walling in and teching up to their indomitable victory fleet. "I don't need any marauders! I'll get this sexy air-for AAAAGH ROACHES HALP!" | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
I mean it seems to be that the build can't stand up to really fast speedlings, and I think expanding wouldn't really be safe if he went speedling/baneling against your roach? You can wall your choke with the 5 roaches, but then whats the transition? Fist, do you use this build in ZvZ? How do you follow it up/do things differently? | ||
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