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On September 03 2010 06:33 RampancyTW wrote:
@SixSigma:
vs. zerg I've been going 14/14 and throwing down an evo chamber after queen (18 supply) and substituting +1 missile for the usual ling speed, and go roach/queen from there on out, works pretty damn well. I like to do a timing push right when the +1 finishes to punish any ling-heavy builds and inflict same damage before whatever else he has coming pops
you'll get thrown off a little bit having to deal with some early ling pressure pretty often but if you micro decent you should be fine til the roaches pop and you can block off your ramp
if he's also doing a late pool econ-build you should be able to steamroll through with the timing push ^^ This is my zvz adjustment
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Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
against 2 gate rush its perfect, but ya. trutling protoss its also not that good, u cant get in with canons at the front without losing many units. And my eco sucks until then compared to protoss and then he does a push and again i dont have enough units because not enough larva or mins.
Against Terran its oki, you force the Terran to build Marauders etc. thats good actually.
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Yeah speedling rush in ZvZ seems to be a weakness, as I described above. I suppose you could plop a second batch of roaches at your ramp, but the beauty is that whatever anyone else does, they have to respond to your roaches first. So that gives you time enough to prepare for any sort of quick counter.
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i crushed a reaper all-in with this.
![[image loading]](http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/142/medium/feelsgood.jpg?1239543703)
User was temp banned for this post.
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So I am playing this and I am having a really hard time with Siege Tanks and siege mode. I didn't really think it would be a problem considering it takes ~6 minutes give or take to get there, but my roaches just don't make it in time, even when I play fairly well.
What's the timing I should be aiming for when my roaches are at my opponents base on say Kulas? Assume I know where the base is located, I think in the particular game I was in where it happened I lost an ovie (I assumed I lost it actually having saved it and lost it anyway). I am not looking to be evaluated, I just want to know the timing give or take. I do the build exactly as it is written.
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On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote:
Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
against 2 gate rush its perfect, but ya. trutling protoss its also not that good, u cant get in with canons at the front without losing many units. And my eco sucks until then compared to protoss and then he does a push and again i dont have enough units because not enough larva or mins.
Against Terran its oki, you force the Terran to build Marauders etc. thats good actually.
That isnt the builds fault!!
If the P player is going 4gate and you havent scouted, you deserve to lose. If the P is going 4gate and you scouted and still dropped an expansion, you deserve to lose.
Don't blame this build.
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On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote:
Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
Ok, what we have here is a 28 page thread with multiple replays of the 5RR working very well against Protoss, with and without transitions to mid game, and then we have you saying that it doesn't work against 4 gate.
In order to help with this could you perhaps post some replays?
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just saw cellawerra lose to the 5RR on stream :D
he went random vs a random scrub, he got protoss and got owned by the 5RR :D
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I know the issue of scouting (@ ~12) has been mentioned before (and its on the liquidpedia), but I didn't see too much discussion on it (sorry if i clearly missed it but scanning ~30 pages with ctrl-f is as much legwork as I can handle), is there any reason to scout with a drone if you are going 5RR against T/P? It seems that nothing I ever scout makes me want to switch up, and when I do see something super ugh its too late because warren is already down...should I just let scout-killer lings do the scouting or should I pull off a drone?
Opinions from those who pull this often?
-edit-
also when I P v Z and my scout gets ling'd before I can see, I generally make a sentry and attempt to split the roaches on my ramp with ff (assuming they are coming although that sentry is a lot of gas)...is this the best response if you cant be sure its coming? or should I move probe outside his base and spawn stalkers if/when i see the roaches incoming?
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@Fistdantilus Why do you put "NOTE: All of the replays are on the old 13/15 build, but all of the ideas remain the same." on your first post ? Could you please edit your first post adding all your recent feedback ? Thx
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Just for anyone who thinks otherwise.
This opeining gets crushed by reaper opening if you are playing against a competent terran. As soon as he see's you are taking gas after building pool, he will only build one reaper and then go for MM. You could be going for some late banelinx or muta, but usually gas after pool means roaches.
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That's why I have switched back to a classic 14 extractor, 14 pool build: to keep most options open.
That way, you can still go for fast roaches if you want to, with a minor delay - or do anything else, depending on your scouting.
14 Extractor
14 Pool
15 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zerglings
around 20 / 21 Roach Warren (when Queen is halfway done, as usual)
Overlord when Queen pop
5 or 6 Roach when overlord, roach warren & inject finish
The roaches are out at 5'10, approximatly. I tend to research zergling speed just after I've done the roaches, but it can probably be done a bit soonner.
What I love with that build is that you retain the possibility of an early roach rush, but you are not bound to it, and you can change for the other zergs openers (say, sling / bling or fast expand) without any trouble nor delay.
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On September 05 2010 11:57 Omele wrote:
So I am playing this and I am having a really hard time with Siege Tanks and siege mode. I didn't really think it would be a problem considering it takes ~6 minutes give or take to get there, but my roaches just don't make it in time, even when I play fairly well.
What's the timing I should be aiming for when my roaches are at my opponents base on say Kulas? Assume I know where the base is located, I think in the particular game I was in where it happened I lost an ovie (I assumed I lost it actually having saved it and lost it anyway). I am not looking to be evaluated, I just want to know the timing give or take. I do the build exactly as it is written.
I had exactly the same problem on steppes - I was up against a terran siege tank / mm timing push (when siege tanks have siege mode) and lost cleanly, simply because by the time you get to their base they have a couple of marines and marauders which is enough to make the attack uneconomical, so you pull back, contain, power drones / hive tech, and then the push comes and walks over everything. I had infestation pit just plopped in anticipation of a decent sized MM, but the siegetanks bbqd my roach ling pretty well before I could get one out. Maybe it would have been better to back tech to ling / bling.
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I like this build because it allows me to expo but I don't like it because the 5 roaches do nothing against a decent terran. I don't like making roaches unless I have to personally though.
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On September 05 2010 01:49 nodq wrote:
Actually, against Protoss this Build does not work very good at all ive to admit. 4 Gate is a pain with this build, i cant pump enough units when the push comes to defend. Push comes exactly then when i finish my 2nd hatch and then ive less mins and no drones there, and no def to beat 4 Gate units.
What happens to your attack?
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This opening is amazing, honestly, thank you so much for it. Z have a respectable and fearful opening for a change rather than all in's, or straight macro play.
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A 2 gate(fake) into 4 gate or 3 gate robo is very common and you can't scout that from a good player. So your second hatch being 2 minutes too late with the 5RR won't let you survive a 4 gate /3 gate robo since you won't have enough ling production.
A proxy stargate will end you no questions. Not enough Queens in time.
A 3 rax with stim push happens almost exactely when you arrive with your 5 roaches and they will get eaten alive along with him keeping you on one base for way too long after that.
Compared to a normal 14 extractor, 14 pool, 15 hatch this "non-all in" will no matter how you bend it make your expansion at least 2 minutes delayed and you'll be at least 5 drones behind if not more when you hit 30 supply (which is A LOT this early).
It might get you a few 7 minutes wins but macro v macro if held off by a competent player you will loose, especially if you loose your expo which is very likely with a counter attack.
I'm not saying the "standard" opening build can't be changed, ofc it can and will be. But this build is worse as a "new" standard since it feels too much like a 4 gate aka all-in.
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On September 05 2010 23:41 Gremmel wrote:
A 2 gate(fake) into 4 gate or 3 gate robo is very common and you can't scout that from a good player. So your second hatch being 2 minutes too late with the 5RR won't let you survive a 4 gate /3 gate robo since you won't have enough ling production.
A proxy stargate will end you no questions. Not enough Queens in time.
A 3 rax with stim push happens almost exactely when you arrive with your 5 roaches and they will get eaten alive along with him keeping you on one base for way too long after that.
Compared to a normal 14 extractor, 14 pool, 15 hatch this "non-all in" will no matter how you bend it make your expansion at least 2 minutes delayed and you'll be at least 5 drones behind if not more when you hit 30 supply (which is A LOT this early).
It might get you a few 7 minutes wins but macro v macro if held off by a competent player you will loose, especially if you loose your expo which is very likely with a counter attack.
I'm not saying the "standard" opening build can't be changed, ofc it can and will be. But this build is worse as a "new" standard since it feels too much like a 4 gate aka all-in. I have to disagree with most of this. I've faced almost every one of these at ~1000 or higher and come out fine or better. If you're having troubles with it higher than that I'd like to know what they're doing different :s
The proxy stargate bit I find particularly confusing. You should have roaches in his base and 2 queens in your own base around the time the first void finishes.
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Can u post a replay of the new 5RR ? Because I don't understand everything of the build.
Thanks.
(got raped by P when they counter ur rush... too many P units u_u )
So, this build can kill a reapers build easyly (3rax and 5rax) ?
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So what do you guys do when you spot marauders?
Back off and go into ling muta?
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EPT
