EPTSo far I'm getting an incredible record with this build vP and a very good record vT, and it's forcing me to learn my Roach micro, as there's a lot more play with the units than I originally expected. All in all thanks for sharing such an awesome build, it's been a treat to show some early aggression as Zerg for a change!
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 30
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FakeGuy
United States13 Posts
So far I'm getting an incredible record with this build vP and a very good record vT, and it's forcing me to learn my Roach micro, as there's a lot more play with the units than I originally expected. All in all thanks for sharing such an awesome build, it's been a treat to show some early aggression as Zerg for a change! | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
Zerg needs to take risks to have a good economy to win in the lategame against Terran, or Terran will easily pull ahead thanks to mules and early harrass. If this build gets scouted early and the opponent puts up one bunker, you're whole attack-force won't do anything. By this time, you've spent so much Larva on attacking-forces, that your eco won't just recover if you hatch 5 drones at a time. See this build for what it is: A nice way to punish Terran players who blindly go reaper-all-in's (which are most of em) and don't really know how to do anything else. Besides, on most short-distance 2-player-maps, where this build could work the best, Terran will go fast Marauder+Hellion-push - and I highly doubt this build will have any chance against that. | ||
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necroticah
South Africa233 Posts
IF someone does scout or manage to block then I find myself needing a plan fast!!! If they took alot of damage from them I immediately start looking into Mutas, if not then I guess I have to defend my expand with Roaches until I get Hydras/Mutas. My APM is good so I can do alot at once, I just don't win  | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On September 07 2010 15:10 kickinhead wrote: Besides, on most short-distance 2-player-maps, where this build could work the best, Terran will go fast Marauder+Hellion-push - and I highly doubt this build will have any chance against that. I'm not sure that's is the case... then it becomes a micro battle, I think you have enough to hold out... I could be wrong. You still have a reasonably timed expo... so you should be roughly even, with adjustment to match him... I'd like to see it tested it... but I have to think I would want roach/speedlings to fight off a mauders hellion push anyways... I can always put up crawlers if I feel neccesary. ( in truth what other option does zerg have? quick rush to muta sure, but it's not going to be in time unless maybe you skip queen) the way I see this build, Zerg puts up a strong and as dynamic t1 army as it can and expos, push and dmg if possblie, if not stall either way usually tech up to muta you can balance the numbers of roach/lings + crawlers as needed. This build is only weak vs air but the pressure it puts on limits options to tech there, and you're attack should give the neccesary scouting info to prepair. | ||
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Zenny
Canada34 Posts
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koontz
1 Post
First of all many thanks for this build :-) Have done some minor tweaks to it. Basically going for 12/10 then overlord, ive think this build is slighter better? :-) | ||
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broke
39 Posts
On September 07 2010 15:10 kickinhead wrote: I totally get that this build may work on opponents at around 1000 Points in Diamond, but it's just a weak build if scouted. So it's like any other build, and doesn't change the zerg race into nothing but 5rr? Blasphemy. I demand my builds be unbeatable. | ||
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Gremmel
4 Posts
On September 07 2010 18:36 koontz wrote: http://data.fuskbugg.se/skogsturken/wp.SC2Replay First of all many thanks for this build :-) Have done some minor tweaks to it. Basically going for 12/10 then overlord, ive think this build is slighter better? :-) The Terran messed up his build early on. Your Roaches were around 20 seconds too late. He could've even had stim and 3 rax pumping if he went for that. Again this build does work for mass marine, 5 rax reaper, 2 gate zealot but not much else and by the time you actually scout or attack you will loose your whole army to either a good forcefield or even loose your expansion vs a 3 rax stim build. Since you have less production because of the "delayed" hatch compared too a 15 hatch any normal 50 food push from either T of P will destroy you. Any good timed banshees or voids will also kill your hatch because of no creep spread. Soo many seems to think that since it's working for them most of the time it's a good build. Until I actually see this in a tournament I wouldn't claim this is such a good opening, a 14/14/15 is stronger in almost every way. It can still hold off crazy early things if played proper, 2 gate, fast reapers etc and destroys later all ins. It also puts you much further ahead in eco that a 5RR. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 07 2010 19:21 Gremmel wrote: The Terran messed up his build early on. Your Roaches were around 20 seconds too late. He could've even had stim and 3 rax pumping if he went for that. Again this build does work for mass marine, 5 rax reaper, 2 gate zealot but not much else and by the time you actually scout or attack you will loose your whole army to either a good forcefield or even loose your expansion vs a 3 rax stim build. Since you have less production because of the "delayed" hatch compared too a 15 hatch any normal 50 food push from either T of P will destroy you. Any good timed banshees or voids will also kill your hatch because of no creep spread. Soo many seems to think that since it's working for them most of the time it's a good build. Until I actually see this in a tournament I wouldn't claim this is such a good opening, a 14/14/15 is stronger in almost every way. It can still hold off crazy early things if played proper, 2 gate, fast reapers etc and destroys later all ins. It also puts you much further ahead in eco that a 5RR. Well this build compared to the 14/14/15 is just delaying the expand to accelerate the roaches. So it's true the main builds it's good against are the ones where the earlier roaches can make a big difference defensively (2 gate, reapers, even banelings) or, and this is the point I believe you missed, OFFENSIVELY (banshees, thor drops). Look at pro games, look at scouting timings and early defenses on tech plays. The main strength of this build is forcing the Terran into certain styles of play, In fact I am considering unvetoing LT and Kulas because thor drops would lose to it. Given the build punishes TLO style early expands (the 3 marine hellion defense is not enough) I don't think the econ is particularly late. The key is to not sacrifice the army if you scout marauders. On the other hand 5 roaches in with the speedlings actually helps beat marine/marauder or marauder/hellion pushes (and even with a 14/16 you need to spend a lot on defense to counter that push). Note as well that a) spine crawlers are not necessary which is econ saved (spine crawlers are very expensive defense when you think about it ... especially as it is necessary to place them well before a push so they are not always used) and b) your defense is mobile, you can go on the offensive really fast, destroy reinforcements, catch him in the open etc, this allows you to punish Terran expands and retain map control much better than spine crawlers ever will. | ||
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ImGonnaRideYou
53 Posts
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
I'm really finding so few wall-ins with a pylon or depo. With no weak point the roachs don't have the power to punch in and do the eco damage needed to make the build shine. Still it's a nice build to have around for when I do see that depo  | ||
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dapz
27 Posts
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
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Zenny
Canada34 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 09 2010 12:34 Galleon.frigate wrote: Heh ya I've finding more resistance to it... I'm really finding so few wall-ins with a pylon or depo. With no weak point the roachs don't have the power to punch in and do the eco damage needed to make the build shine. Still it's a nice build to have around for when I do see that depo Look at the Dimaga style ZvP thread. I have found on most maps a scout (OL or a 12 ish drone on 4 player maps) gets there right at the decision point for the warren versus hatchery, the rest of the build is similar (you go 13 pool gas or gas pool, 15 OL, queen right away, then at 20 it's hatchery for the dimaga style or warren for the 5RR). Now when your scout gets there if you see a weak front (hellion/(1/1/1/) or 2 gate) you go 5RR, otherwise you drop expand immediately and get the evo (and immediately the 1/0 ling upgrades). The 1/0 (or 0/1 if you prefer) lings destroy marine marauder as well as gateway pushes so they are a great opener and a strong economy for any transition. The 5RR is more situational but a good option to have if you scout a 2 gate or weak front. | ||
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necroticah
South Africa233 Posts
On September 10 2010 02:37 Sixes wrote:The 5RR is more situational but a good option to have if you scout a 2 gate or weak front. When I came across a 'weak front' he is usually amassing a Void Ray/Pheonix Strategy.. So you need to be quick to hurt him all the while you build Queens and tech to Hydra/Muta I think. | ||
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caewil
Singapore26 Posts
Now being Idra, he lost and hilariously rage-quit after a tank drop on the high-ground and mech pushing. But still, he is my hero and it makes me sad that he didn't use this. | ||
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OdinPimphammer
Afghanistan40 Posts
I think most high level Z players feel like they are cheesing when they do this build and that there is some dishonor in doing it. Even though P feels its their right to cannon up your ramp and rush Zealots <4 min mark. Oh well. | ||
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kataa
United Kingdom384 Posts
On September 10 2010 19:01 OdinPimphammer wrote: I have been watching quite a few high level Zerg players (streams, tourneys, replays) and almost none of them will do the 5rr, they almost always look to expand even if for such a noob as myself it would seem the 5rr would win them the game. That's not entirely true, there are few top 200 players I've seen use it, Sen being the most notable example. It's just that, as is the mark with all good players, they only use the strategy in certain situations - as oppose to spaming it for easy ladder wins. | ||
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On September 09 2010 13:54 dapz wrote: i personally have no problem when a zerg goes fast roaches against my 2gate. But it does get them decently into the middlegame and they definitely do not die from the early zealots. aside from maybe a few lings or drones if the build isn't timed correctly. I think thats the point, Im sure from the Zs perspective your 2 gate isn't bothering him and he gets into the mid game on even footing or ahead (depending on micro/decision making). | ||
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