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Got reps, gonkulator? I'm curious to see how you're going about this.
Vs. P -- Possible to just target the pylon powering the cannons? This won't all the time as smarter players will have multiple pylons powering their gates/cannons, but by the time you're knocking on their door, they shouldn't have *TOO* much established.
Vs. T -- If he walls up and you can't breach or get muta harass in, take the time to deny any expansions and just do massive map control. Use that muta mobility and stay on the move. Have pooping ovies/lings at each expansion. If/when he moves out, be ready with the appropriate counter. You should have outmacroed him if you denied him and he's spending the time/money to turtle.
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A match versus Protoss on Lost Temple:
http://www.mediafire.com/?yq7qjg4ebyfgzpc
Couldn't get through his defenses, was dumb not too scout his stargate because he had cannons everywhere (except at the back). Now that I look back at this I could've won this if I scouted his stargate earlier.
A match versus Protoss on Steppes of War:
http://www.mediafire.com/?t9dycjd5xxsu4rd
Managed to do a nice amount of damage in the beginning but had to pull back because of a well-placed Photon Cannon. I could've won this easily but when he got mass Carriers at the end and I was way too low on gas for more Hydralisks I just gave up.
I tend to get really, really sloppy when the game goes on for quite some time.
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I find if they have cannons its best to just contain and switch to macro mode. you won't break through a proper wall if there's cannons behind it.
Lost a game earlier today where he cannoned in. I set up a contain with my roaches and lings and swapped to macro, but then got nailed hard by a proxy pylon in my main that i hadn't noticed XD Never could recover from that hit i took from the proxy  Might have gone differently if it wasjn't there, but regardless. to me cannons mean swap to macro mode (which is pretty quick with this build).
I think (but just theorycrafting on this point) that you'd be roughly even to the cannon toss. The roach ling push doesn't actually work, but he's also spent resources on static defences so i figure you're approximately on equal terms (except that those roaches and lings can be used later in the match)
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works like a charm. I usually open with this versus terran and Protoss. however good protoss have the tendency to get some photon cannons and rush for void rays. Don't macro too much, or you will be suprised by some unfriendly air.
Very nice opener. If you get some good drone harass on the SCV's you can actually delay the barracks and make this very effective. ^^
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Maps with long rush distances or possibly 4-player maps allow this build to be used for ZvZ, but defensively. It works well when the opponent goes zerg/banelings because you can create essentially a roach wall. Quick teching to mutas allows zerg players to abuse the use of mobility and overlords.
This build also works when the opponent goes mass roaches (only if positioned correctly). I'll post a replay soon (yes opponent may have made some mistakes, but this replay helps show the build is viable for ZvZ...+ this was a diamond game...so there's some (just some...) credibility...)
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On August 29 2010 22:56 gonkulator wrote:
I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:
- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.
- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.
Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.
I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated.
You are bronze and you mention tanks don't allow to execute this build right.. That mean you just make everything too slow, he can't have tanks that fast imo. I suggest just don't do this build because it requires good timing.
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On August 30 2010 17:28 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 22:56 gonkulator wrote:
I won several times with this nice build but now I'm on a heavy losing streak, mainly because of these problems:
- When I'm playing against Protoss he usually walls himself in with a few cannons and some gateways so I can't get in with the handful of Roaches and Zerglings I have. I pull back and macro up and usually I get a Spire or a Hydralisk Den. But when I have a small force of anti-air forces he comes in with a load of Void Rays and Stalkers and just burns me to death. I seriously have no idea how to beat the cannons before he can get the critical amount of Void Rays. Banelings maybe? I figure that would take too long and it's still hard with Banelings to get through those cannons.
- When I'm playing against Terran he also walls himself in with tanks AND missile turrets, so I can't target fire his tanks with Mutalisks. Banelings don't help either because they get torn to shreds by the tanks. When he sees I have Mutalisks he techs up to Thors.
Expanding doesn't help either. I try to scout as mush as possible to see what he is up to but when I can barely see a glimpse of what he has the Overlord/Overseer usually gets killed by missile turrets/marines/photon cannons/etc. so I still have no idea what he is up to. It seems that he always will go for something I did not expect. I guess that's my fault there.
I'm really stuck here. I'm a Bronze player by the way. Was Silver before but because of a huge losing streak I got put back into Bronze again. Oh well.
So, what should I do? Keep the agression up when he's turtling? Expand and focus on building a solid force? Scout more? Any help would be appreciated. You are bronze and you mention tanks don't allow to execute this build right.. That mean you just make everything too slow, he can't have tanks that fast imo. I suggest just don't do this build because it requires good timing.
Terran can have 1 Tank out on Maps where the walk distance is little bit longer... get a clue.
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I've also seen one tank pop out. admittedly it didn't last long as it was after i had broken his wall and had lings swarming about the place. Was on scrap station, but i figure on the larger maps there is the possibility of a tank before you can bring the wall down.
fast robo on the other hand doesn't usually get the immortal out in time :D
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On August 27 2010 15:29 P00RKID wrote:
With the 5RR, when the first 5 roaches pop, you generally have about 75-100ish gas built up to use on ling speed. If you scout the forward 2gate (not proxy but by the expo) then you can afford to delay ling speed by taking drones out of gas (or not putting them in yet, or delaying extractor, depends on scout timing). With the extra minerals, you build the spine crawler, put drones back on gas, and should still have the 5 roaches out at the normal time, with the only difference being that you won't have ling speed started right after they spawn out.
My suggestion if the build works out is continuing roach production if you see them build up zealots on 2gate, like 5+ zlots. After you reinforce 5roaches with about 3-4 more roaches, ling speed and lings follow through, or drone up depending on the situation.
How does that sound, Zibitee?
that sounds awesome thanks! ^^
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this opening is great I have had a lot of success with it, I only follow your written opening loosely though, as your replay 15 extractor opening is much better, as it flows into the mid game much nicer, if I break his front lines, depending on what unit composition he's using, I take drones off gas (stalker/marauder) or keep them on (zealot/marine)
This opening flows nicely into muta/bling too
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I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125.
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800 Diamond P
I just want to add that I was hit with this the other day and it completely screwed me. We were in 6 and 9 positions on LT and I went VR rush. I scouted early gas with no warren before the lings got my probe and figured muta play. Build went perfect right up until the VR was half way finished and 5 roaches came knocking at the front. I clearly missed an opportunity to FF the ramp with my sentry (might have won the game if I had) and the roaches came busting in and wiped out the 2 zealots, stalker and sentry defending. The void came out, but not before the 10 roaches (reinforced) wiped the nexus.
IMO, This is a really effective ZvP build. The only good counter P has is typically fast robo (and seriously who does that in PvZ) since the roaches can hit before warpgate tech is done.
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This turned out to be a really good opening:
![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5720/sc22010083015555595.jpg)
Only two of the wins were not outright - one against terran who went for fast banshee and killed my attacking units, not before they destroyed his economy. Then i made more queens, spores, hydras and eventually mutalisks, at that point he invested heavily in turrets and i went in with a ground army = gg.
The other was against protoss, who got early immortal and with the help of all his probes stopped me. I expanded, made a shitload of speedlings and twice destroyed his army, he got colossus, i got mutas = gg.
The only loss is a ZvZ, where he...wait for it...went for banelings and raped my drone line. I have yet to review the replay and see if i made any mistakes, but overall in the other matchups, especially against protoss, this build is great.
I am now ~600 diamond - we'll see how far it gets me.
Edit: before today i had not played ladder for some time, that's why the points are so many - i had a large bonus pool.
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Been using 1-base strategies more and more, because I am finding that I cannot hold my FE vs. most of the early rushes that are out there. The only one I can manage is 4gate on maps that allow you to wall it in. However, I am liking the 1-base early aggression a lot more. I use this roach strat against toss and a similar build with banelings vs. terran.
The reason I don't even bother to try this vs. terran is because unless they are doing some strange tech build, they have marauders around, in which case your roaches just instantly die. The alternative is just marines, in which case banelings blow them up just fine and roaches aren't needed.
Neither roaches or banelings are all in, both have a nice transition into midgame, ample opportunity to scout before you commit, and it's always nice to get a "FU" and quit early on from an opponent who was unprepared. Thanks Fistdantilus for this build order 
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I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread yet, but versus Protoss would the minerals/timings allow you to sneak in a gas steal to really gimp the P response to roaches?
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How do you guys handle early Marauders, which mentioned previously, tear apart Roaches at the wall-off? Backtech to lings/blings? Or keep teching up? I feel that when I go Muta/Splings, I usually end up in a base trade or an outright loss.
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On August 31 2010 03:03 xtcz wrote:
How do you guys handle early Marauders, which mentioned previously, tear apart Roaches at the wall-off? Backtech to lings/blings? Or keep teching up? I feel that when I go Muta/Splings, I usually end up in a base trade or an outright loss.
I actually have this problem too. If the roaches can't push through the door, I usually end up macroing so that my expansion is up and functional. I follow this up with a tech to lair.
The problem lies here:
If the terran player stays at 1 base and gets a combo of helions and marauders, which is an awesome strat against fast expansion zerg (as it limits the zerg player to lings/roaches for a long time), he can push through my expansion no problem. More roaches and lings don't seem to do much unless I out-micro his helions. Spine crawlers die pretty early in the push, and tech structures for hydra/spire come up in the middle of the push, usually too late for enough retaliation. It's pretty hard to come out on top against the terran marauder/helion timing push. Does anyone have any replays on how to counter this?
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On August 31 2010 01:26 Demi9OD wrote:
I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125. Your timing isn't perfect, then. I have a replay a few pages back demonstrating "perfect" 13/13 timing
edit: http://www.mediafire.com/?h6bcc9ce8nh8b2d
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On August 31 2010 02:00 Psyclon wrote:This turned out to be a really good opening: Only two of the wins were not outright - one against terran who went for fast banshee and killed my attacking units, not before they destroyed his economy. Then i made more queens, spores, hydras and eventually mutalisks, at that point he invested heavily in turrets and i went in with a ground army = gg. The other was against protoss, who got early immortal and with the help of all his probes stopped me. I expanded, made a shitload of speedlings and twice destroyed his army, he got colossus, i got mutas = gg. The only loss is a ZvZ, where he...wait for it...went for banelings and raped my drone line. I have yet to review the replay and see if i made any mistakes, but overall in the other matchups, especially against protoss, this build is great. I am now ~600 diamond - we'll see how far it gets me. Edit: before today i had not played ladder for some time, that's why the points are so many - i had a large bonus pool.
if there are some you particularly like, I'd like to see some of those replays just for kicks.
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On August 31 2010 05:14 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 01:26 Demi9OD wrote:
I find I am always 25 gas short of 5 roaches when picking up ling speed before roaches. This is using the 13/13 build with perfect timing of drone transfer to extractor over many attempts vs AI. 14p13e flows just right, but I am wondering how you can research ling speed first and still have 125 gas as OL/Larva/Warren pop with 13/13, let alone pull workers off gas when you reach 125. Your timing isn't perfect, then. I have a replay a few pages back demonstrating "perfect" 13/13 timing edit: http://www.mediafire.com/?h6bcc9ce8nh8b2d
I see, I had the same problem as Demi90D ( and went for 14 -> 13, thanks for that ) and now I see the diffrence from what I was doing to what RampancyTW is doing, RampancyTW is not scouting on 13.
I seem to remmber scouting as part of the build but I don't see it anymore.
With the 14-13 I can have the 5 roaches at 5:25, you're way gets them at 5:05.
Don't you think the scan is worth the 20 seconds delay?
remmber that scanning a can show you an marauder or stalker build that will demolish your roaches ahead of time, or you can use your probe for gas steal or even setting a proxy hatch in his blind spot if you are feeling crazy.
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EPT
