EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 19
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Tergeron
United States66 Posts
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:29 Tergeron wrote: This build has pretty much broken PvZ in Zergs favor. Not because you can break the ramp and just win right there, but because it puts the zerg ahead so much that protoss struggles to get even. it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it. finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of. especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door. | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
On August 27 2010 06:27 Newti wrote: Haha no  Rax + Fact Wall off is nowhere near enough to stop 5RR. I think its this replay where I play vs a Terran doing it: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/64903-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war To be safe you either need bunkers or an extra Marauder. Also you cant me sure the Zerg doesn't FE when he kills your scv @ exe with 2 lings and a drone... sure, you can scan but.. I see. My practice partner and I tried this several times today, making sure Terran never cheated by doing stuff out of the ordinary until he actually scouted that something was up (and not scouting differently than normal either). Typically the first hellion would find the Roaches headed to the Terran base, Terran would pull 5 SCVs to build a bunker and repair the wall (used 2 depot 1 rax). Terran held the line each time. This build does however seem wicked good vs Protoss, especially with that gas steal. On August 27 2010 11:47 TyrantPotato wrote: it hasnt broken the matchup, it has given an opening to zerg that the other players must react to, meaning if you dont scout and we choose to use it, and you want to play aggressor you'll be eating it. finally the other races must now scout zerg early enough to see whether we pool before gas (5rr build) gas before pool (ling build) or pool hatch finally zerg has some sort of proactive opening other races must be aware of. especially T players. no longer can they sit back and not be afraid of what coming, they have to make sure they wont have roaches at their door. I wouldn't really agree that merely seeing the order of the gas and pool guarantees you knowledge of the Zerg build. The two orders are certainly optimal for different things, but all in all they are only different by 1-2 Drones. Once the scout is chased away Zerg can always choose to switch to the technically less efficient strategy, but it will still work if his opponent read too much into the order that he scouted. For example if Terran thinks he scouts lings, he will believe himself safe behind the wall and might skimp Marines. If the Zerg goes Roaches then yes they will arrive a few seconds later than they would in an optimized Roach order, but if they arrive and Terran only has ~2 Marines, its gg. | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
That being said, i think this still could kill someone who is attempting to harass or be cheesy. 2gate rushes, hellions, or reapers would get owned by this hardcore in good hands. It also seems to hit at a time where people going 4gate or some other timing push have very few units. I offrace zerg so i will check this out more. | ||
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun) I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong... (Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays) | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
Other than that game, the 5RR still performs really well, just some maps, and some players know how to respond very well to it. | ||
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Zibitee
United States39 Posts
I LOVEEEE the fact that this build gives zerg early threat against his opposition! However, I've had trouble pulling this strategy off on Steppes of War against protoss players who 2-gate in front of their natural expansion. By the time their first zealot + a probe gets to your base for aggression, you'll have your 2 zerglings, queen in production, and roach warren in production. This means that: 1) Drones are going to either get hurt or pulled off of mining, delaying your roaches from coming out 2) Your roaches (however many you end up getting due to resource constrictions) will come out when the protoss player already has 3-4 zealots in your base 3) When you do fight off the zealot aggression, he'll probably have a wall and a cannon behind it, usually just out of range of your roaches =/ 4) Unless you decide to skip the zerglings that usually follow the 5 roach attack, you will be behind in harvester count So I was wondering if there are any replays around as to how you can fend off the early 2gate wall-off specifically on the map steppes of war. I did watch most of the replays including the Protoss FE on steppes of war (which was a bad example because the protoss player didn't block off his wall and just let your roaches run in!), but maybe I missed it , maybe I didn't. Either way, what are your tips? | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
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IamOBESE
United States134 Posts
On August 27 2010 13:19 EliteAzn wrote: I have tried this twice against Very Hard ai. I'm just curious why this build doesn't work against extreme aggression. First game (timing wasn't perfect, but still), I went against a non-wall 2 gate core , and encountered 5 zealots, 2 stalkers. Yeah, wasn't going to break through that. Second game (timing was a lot better, followed the order step by step), played against a terran (haven't looked at replay exactly), but ran into mass rines, believe it was like ~10-12 rines. Both games were on blistering, so I don't know what's going on. Would appreciate if OP would answer ...and please try it before commenting...(Diamond ~600 player (not enough games obviously), Using build strictly for BS vs. P, I usually FE the other maps...Back door = no fun) I believe the Very Hard AI does not receive any resource bonuses, but I may be wrong... (Tried uploading replays to gamereplays, but they hate vs. ai replays) Very Hard AI gets a resource bonus of +1 each, thats why you are failing. | ||
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EliteAzn
United States661 Posts
On August 27 2010 13:53 Oconomist wrote: Very Hard AI gets a resource bonus of +1 each, thats why you are failing. Are you sure you're not mistaking Very hard with Insane? Or is Insane 2+? | ||
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IamOBESE
United States134 Posts
On August 27 2010 14:28 EliteAzn wrote: Are you sure you're not mistaking Very hard with Insane? Or is Insane 2+? insane is +2 | ||
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SaikOuLighT
Canada742 Posts
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Zibitee
United States39 Posts
On August 27 2010 13:52 P00RKID wrote: @ Zibitee: I think maybe delaying the roach warren a tad to get a spine crawler would be worth it. If they attack with 1-2 zealots, it can hold them at bay, until they get about 5 zealots, when they usualy push back in, the roaches i think would be finishing then? Not certain. Yeah, that would be the proper response. I guess planting a spine crawler when I see two forward gateways would be a good idea. Anyone else have input? | ||
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Ineluctable
Canada68 Posts
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woolly
United States56 Posts
On August 27 2010 14:46 Zibitee wrote: Yeah, that would be the proper response. I guess planting a spine crawler when I see two forward gateways would be a good idea. Anyone else have input? If you plant a spine crawler, the timing of the build is completely messed up, which is why it succeeds in the first place. | ||
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P00RKID
United States424 Posts
With the 5RR, when the first 5 roaches pop, you generally have about 75-100ish gas built up to use on ling speed. If you scout the forward 2gate (not proxy but by the expo) then you can afford to delay ling speed by taking drones out of gas (or not putting them in yet, or delaying extractor, depends on scout timing). With the extra minerals, you build the spine crawler, put drones back on gas, and should still have the 5 roaches out at the normal time, with the only difference being that you won't have ling speed started right after they spawn out. My suggestion if the build works out is continuing roach production if you see them build up zealots on 2gate, like 5+ zlots. After you reinforce 5roaches with about 3-4 more roaches, ling speed and lings follow through, or drone up depending on the situation. How does that sound, Zibitee? | ||
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Lane
United States46 Posts
But I can't get it to work in ZvZ. Still gotta do ling+muta. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On August 27 2010 11:02 RampancyTW wrote: Oops! Haven't played in a day and was thinking like an idiot. Yes, I'm going off the first round of larva and not the second. Doesn't really change my point though: since my queen comes at the same time, my larva pop at the same time, and I have enough gas when my larva pop to make 5 roaches. 13/13 will always net you extra gas, 13/12 is absolutely unnecessary. I did 13/13 a few times and hit 228 (total) gas way early each time which is why I started going for the later gas again. My RW and larva are popping at the same time as yours, with the necessary gas. Something's off with what you're doing. This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas. I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner? I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files: 13p12e timing: http://www.mediafire.com/?h9hhk4ok6oslste 13p15e timing: http://www.mediafire.com/?zbdsi8y9si46d7m Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21. I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly. | ||
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lovewithlea
168 Posts
as soon as they adapt and just build few units earlier instead of hardcore teching they'll be totally fine. problem versus P are sentries. even with gas steal there can be 1-2 out when u arrive and that gives enough time for him to hold it off. and a 4 followed 4 gate will crush you probably. Versus Terrans it only works when they feal safe and tech.. what they pretty much do all the time and that is why everyone here starts to love the build. as soon as they adapt and build a rauder+ bunker versus zerg as they do versus P it all will be back to normal. 5RR just abuses our beloved metagame. the fact that Zergs haven't been aggressive in the early game lately. that said. i play the 7RR which goes something like this + Show Spoiler + 14 pool 16 gas 15 ovi 16 queen 4 lings 20 drone kill scout 21 Roach warren when scout is dead 20drone 21ovi. some where inbetween here either throw expo or wait till after Roachwarren now save up larvas. u'll have 3 when larva inject popps and enough money to build 7 roaches. injected larva will poop right after the RW did. you should even have enough money to throw in an expo while waiting for larvas. if you aint sure just wait till you've build the 7 roaches and then expand. edit: hatch before roaches youll have to wait for 2 roaches, the last popping 5:22 game time. without it all pop 5:12-5:15 | ||
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dvide
United Kingdom287 Posts
On August 27 2010 17:43 Umpteen wrote: This is really weird. I mean, with 13p12e I'm starting my gas three drones earlier, and I'm able to make five roaches pretty much upon the instant I have 125 gas. You start your gas later, and also say you're making 5 roaches the instant you have 125 gas. I gotta ask, why is it automatically me who's doing something wrong, when my roaches pop sooner? I can't upload replays to the usual sites because they're too short and only against AI, so here are the files: 13p12e timing: http://www.mediafire.com/?h9hhk4ok6oslste 13p15e timing: http://www.mediafire.com/?zbdsi8y9si46d7m Note about the first replay: I build my warren about 5 seconds too early, wasting some mineral gathering time. Even so, my last roach pops at 5:06 (IIRC). In the second replay, my warren and larvae pop when I'm at around 80 gas, and I have to wait. The last roach emerges at 5:21. I'm not saying 13p12e is better. It might be stunting me economically. But it flat-out cannot be true that 13p15e gets your roaches out as quickly. Could it be something to do with the gas placement in relation to the hatchery? Consider this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=143867 "On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the top location, get the bottom gas first. On Blistering Sands, if you spawn on the bottom location, get the top gas first." It's confusing why people are getting such varied results with the same exact build. But I think either way, with gas on 15 you can't get ling speed until after the roaches. | ||
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