EPTDo you think revolutions in BW are still possible?
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SiarX
133 Posts
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Jealous
10312 Posts
Bisu's FFE + Sair/DT Revolution was marked by his win over Savior. Do I think someone, a relative unknown underdog, can show up and dominate the most dominant player with a surprise strategy? Not in the same caliber, though Larva's Hydra/Guardian comes to mind as something in a similar vein for 1 game, or NaDa's Nuke Rush. I personally don't think those are close to the revolution, but it shows that innovation does happen. What about the Shuttle-centric, HT-harass PvT meta we've been going through for the past 4-5 years? I think that could be close in terms of scope, or as close as you can be, but also not quite there. However, it is a definitive meta shift in the game. What about DA in PvZ? Built from parts of old too much, IMO. JangBi did it on HBR in what, 2009 or so? It's clearly not something new but some thing resurfaced. That all being said, I think the reason why "The" Revolution was impactful because of the win vs. Savior to a large degree, and that is something we can't quite replicate now. However, even that was a Revolution made of constituent parts of previous innovators, usually listed as Daezang and Anytime. As such, I don't think we can have a Revolution of the same caliber, but I also think that there are ample arguments that innovation is ongoing and that the initial Revolution was a product of the contemporary scene as much as it was a product of novel applications of previously-known approaches. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1695 Posts
It is very interesting to see the evolution of the meta over the years, especially z v t (from a zerg perspective). Back in the day like early 2000s, the standard opening would be 2 hatch lurker (hatch 12 pool11 gas 12 lair etc...) take b3 and go mass hydra lurker. The problem is that terran would make 2 facts and as soon as they accumlated too many tanks, the game would rapidly become impossible. So i don't know who came up with the idea but the meta evolved into going 2 hatch into third (just like the current meta but instead we took gas at 12 not 10) and get defiler asap. The problem is that there was no muta micro at that time and terran quickly found a way to pressure your third. Then 3 hatch muta into third became the standard opening for quite a long time. It's like 2 hatch opening was gone forever (to my biggest regret). But this would leave too much space to terran to pump units which made it extremely hard for zerg to keep up (5 rax +1, mech switch). And now here we are with basically almost the same opening as 20 years ago, but the macro, micro and harass improved so much that it is now reliable again. So in the end it has always been going back and forth in term of meta. You are asking about a revolution, I have been away from the game since 2021 and came back two months ago, to me, z v t had its little revolution. 2 hatch opening with third before muta come out, I did not think this would come back one day. I was super impressed by Soulkey z v t, how he breaks through terran's defense so "easily" with so few units or at least, prevents him to go out until lurkers are ready. I was not used of that. Regarding z v p, this mu has always been very straight forward, and for me the quickest to catch up. But I find protoss to be more aggressive than before, especially with the one gate opening which prevents you from taking your gas before taking your third (if going lair before speed ling). It is also new for me to see so many protoss making observers before taking third and pumping mass units, that makes it harder to keep up in term of macro, as a result, it is almost like if you are not careful any noob could just kill you at the first push. The way they harass you with corsaires has also improved. I noticed that hydra push is much more used than before, I guess it is a direct consequence of that. I have probably more observations, but overall in a span of 4 years, the meta became more aggressive and technical, and frankly, I never had so much fun playing this game. I have no idea how the meta will evolve, I find zerg too weak when it comes to upgrades for ground units vs terran, making it all about muta in the early game, but what happens when terran become too good at defending against muta? They have this opening with early engineering to get the +1 attack that is pretty good, but then it makes them more vulnerable to speed lings because of the low marines count. The evolution chamber comes up way too late in the game, and that bothers me. Is there a way to get a +1 carap early for a standard opening? That would be great. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1900 Posts
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
On April 01 2025 08:13 CicadaSC wrote: Definitely still possible. Didn't mini popularize scouts for a bit a year or two ago? What about crazy zerg? Or mech starts vs zerg.. You gotta post some vods... As far as I member only 2 ppl in ASL have done scouts and they both lost those games. I do believe 1 scout can be useful in PvT. Arbiters in ZvP also possible. Also tried in ASL once by Best I think. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28784 Posts
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tankgirl
Canada452 Posts
On April 01 2025 09:42 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: You gotta post some vods... As far as I member only 2 ppl in ASL have done scouts and they both lost those games. ASL12 Finals Mini vs Rush Game 3 @ Eclipse + Show Spoiler [youtube tastosis] + | ||
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prosatan
Romania8609 Posts
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TMNT
3135 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5358 Posts
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Xeofreestyler
Belgium6775 Posts
On April 01 2025 16:12 tankgirl wrote: ASL12 Finals Mini vs Rush Game 3 @ Eclipse + Show Spoiler [youtube tastosis] + https://youtu.be/ahnzlVnvdPE?t=4863 LMAO "box art battle" is so accurate | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1203 Posts
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
Coming out with an opening that crushes and permanently becomes part of regular openings. Those also were really notable in a finals of a major series (i know the +1 5rax is not as revolutionary, but the msl finals thread had plenty surprised by the 5th rax versus a very standard +1 4rax) Like the folks that know a lot more than me, i think some styles with later game spellcasters have some opportunity to be more regular. Some more dark archon use, maybe some queens in zvp or arbiter in pvz. I personally think maybe some valkyries in late game tvz for overlord hunting can make a showing one day (canata vs jaedong on ground zero in proleague) One can always dream of Hiya's tvp 3 port wraith with nuke vs free in hana daetoo msl ro8 (very map specific) as becoming standard though | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1695 Posts
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LUCKY_NOOB
Bulgaria1537 Posts
On April 01 2025 16:12 tankgirl wrote: ASL12 Finals Mini vs Rush Game 3 @ Eclipse + Show Spoiler [youtube tastosis] + https://youtu.be/ahnzlVnvdPE?t=4863 Nice! I guess this is as good as it gets for Scouts lel... Now I wanna see Scout micro vs turrets in pro games kek Like mutas. I think a Map Revolution would lead to a game revolution. But the world is not ready. | ||
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway641 Posts
The dream is do recall 12-15 dark templars into a base, given how high their damage is against buildings. Probably too many criteria that have to be in place for it to be viable, but I dream nonetheless! | ||
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iopq
United States1070 Posts
Why is that? Because people got better at boosting, splitting to the faster patches (everyone is now aware which ones are faster), moving larvae. Yet people still use builds from like 2005 like 12 hatchery Guys, when you put down the hatchery earlier you still don't float 3 larvae. Why do you wait for 12 to make your hatch? It slows down EVERY unit from the expansion hatchery, including drones. | ||
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