EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 11
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Rev0lution
United States1805 Posts
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Rinser
2 Posts
On August 23 2010 21:03 Mataza wrote: Also you could and should hide your scouting drone in his base as long as you can, so you can see his tech. Knowing that he has 3 rax could have helped you survive. And no, Muta tech takes forever to complete, so you cannot wait it out when he goes aggressive opening(3rax). I hope this is helpful to you. This is indeed helpful, thank you very much... you are actually right, i asked myself again and again what would have happened if i just attacked and not went back, thinking "omg techlab - MARAUDERS!!! AAAAH!". I then skipped the zerglings and zergling speed but that (and forgetting banelings) was exactly the WRONG thing to do when he was about to mass bio, which i should have known by saccing an OL... thank you very much! kept loosing today due to lack of concept, but i'll try to fight my deamons and go 5rr -> splings/muta/hydra again  | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/35957 (IdrA vs MorroW on XC) The 5RR would get to his base around the 6 minute mark. At that time, MorroW has 3 reapers and a marine with 3 operational barracks. 5 roaches vs 3 reapers and a marine, with zerglings on the way. MorroW didn't scan and would not have seen the roaches until they were incoming. I'm not going to claim it would win outright vs MorroW, but I think it would have been very strong. I know that players I've faced who had similar compositions against me have just rolled over. | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
Today I've face 4 terrans, 3 of whom went 3 or 5 rax reaper. 2 got obliterated, and the other it was just a formality winning the game after the initial rush. The only guy who didn't reaper rush me was the guy who won against me with a hellion drop. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
[edit]Multiplayer as in 2v2/3v3/4v4/FFA | ||
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shrinkmaster
Germany947 Posts
On August 24 2010 03:09 Fistdantilus wrote: Today I've face 4 terrans, 3 of whom went 3 or 5 rax reaper. 2 got obliterated, and the other it was just a formality winning the game after the initial rush. The only guy who didn't reaper rush me was the guy who won against me with a hellion drop. It's the same on EU server, seems like 95% of my terran opponents are going 3 or 5 rax reaper. It's getting really annoying. The only good thing is that most of the terrans doing this don't know when to stop making reapers and transition to something else. As zerg you shouldn't overcommit to roaches, because the terran will switch to marauders and rape you instantly. I use this build with a slight variaton against terran reaper builds and so far it's not that bad. If you use those 5 roaches to stay alive until ling speed is finished and you have a second queen for easy and fast creep spreading you should be in good shape. | ||
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captive411
United States80 Posts
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nodq
Germany123 Posts
On August 24 2010 05:44 captive411 wrote: Why is roach burrow so underused? I think it kicks ass but have rarely seen pros use it. To late to tech. Why should i use mass raoches at this stage of the game instead of mutas and/or hydras? there is no reason for that, 1. roaches ar sooo damn easy to counter for protoss and terran. its not funny at all. 2. to much upgrades needed for roaches, u need speedupgrade and upgrade to move while burrowed? AND the burrow upgrade itself? i mean wtf?! In beta i used alot burrowed roaches until everyone knew how to counter it :D and roaches were 1 supply back then. greets | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
More fun than speedlings into fe at the very least. It feels good to be able to force the game in your direction for once! After testing it some more, I`ve kind of realized that I`m just not suited for this build at all. I just fail playing it. Is it normal that there are like 2 marauders and 3-4 marines on top of the wall in when you get there with the roaches? | ||
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captive411
United States80 Posts
On August 24 2010 05:59 nodq wrote: To late to tech. Why should i use mass raoches at this stage of the game instead of mutas and/or hydras? there is no reason for that, 1. roaches ar sooo damn easy to counter for protoss and terran. its not funny at all. 2. to much upgrades needed for roaches, u need speedupgrade and upgrade to move while burrowed? AND the burrow upgrade itself? i mean wtf?! In beta i used alot burrowed roaches until everyone knew how to counter it :D and roaches were 1 supply back then. greets Burrow in general seems to be un-used in high lvl. I know it takes a bit to tech, but you can tech it out of one lair while getting other upgrades. Helps to get a nice surround imo (then again I only play against crappy player because i'm noob.) | ||
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KiaL.Kiwi
Germany210 Posts
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Myrkur
United States34 Posts
The last game I played was against someone trying to do 5 rax reaper against me, and this shut it down. He was able to kill 3 of my Roaches cause he had 2 marauders pop right when I showed up, but I broke in and wave after wave of zergling ended it 1:30 later. I feel very confident with this build. It transitions so well into other builds and it is shutting down a lot of powerful builds that have been plaguing FE Zerg, and 1 base speedling zerg for a while. Had a close game against a 4gate rush where we met in middle. 5 roaches vs 6(?) Zealots. I won but it took a while to get to his base and start killing it. I spammed roaches till he got stalkers then came in with speedlings. Very Solid Build, you rock! | ||
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loafmaster
United States203 Posts
Basically he had a couple stalkers with a sentry to hold off his ramp with very good use of force field. Of course, like stated in the OP, i back teched to lings immediately. With some OL useage I was even able to see that he had a stargate so I started building more queens and started lair tech right away. But that's exactly the problem. It was way too late to try and get hydra. The first phoenix goes around sniping outlier overlords, then once he reaches a 3-4 he can easily graviton the queens and kill them, which soon renders ALL your overlords completely helpless, not just the outlier ones. Of course then he expands, gets a way better economy, masses stalkers, colossi, sentries and steamrolls you. What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though. | ||
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
On August 24 2010 11:04 loafmaster wrote: This build is awesome! I am getting very good results with it vs terran and protoss. However, I lose to protoss very convincingly when he techs to phoenixes. Basically he had a couple stalkers with a sentry to hold off his ramp with very good use of force field. Of course, like stated in the OP, i back teched to lings immediately. With some OL useage I was even able to see that he had a stargate so I started building more queens and started lair tech right away. But that's exactly the problem. It was way too late to try and get hydra. The first phoenix goes around sniping outlier overlords, then once he reaches a 3-4 he can easily graviton the queens and kill them, which soon renders ALL your overlords completely helpless, not just the outlier ones. Of course then he expands, gets a way better economy, masses stalkers, colossi, sentries and steamrolls you. What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though. Good question. I've tried skipping the expansion and teching to lair, but find it strictly worse than expanding as you don't have the larvae to do everything you want. I think it may work in some situations and it's possible I just haven't smoothed out the details, but it's definitely something to keep in mind. Regarding anything stargate: start on the second and third queens ASAP as well as getting an evo chamber. You have time, and your opponent sacrificed his army strength to get phoenix which aren't great in a fight. | ||
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delaharl
Philippines5 Posts
On August 24 2010 11:04 loafmaster wrote: What's a good way to transition from 5RR to something that would stop this? Perhaps delaying expanding even further and tech to lair sooner? I can't imagine zerg getting ahead by delaying the expo anymore than this though. If it were me, I'd already have an OL in his base, checking out his other buildings. If its a Stargate, it means either pheonix or void ray. Once my initial push fails, I'll upgrade to lair immidietly, along with making a evo chamber. Get a spore crawler in your bases, and see if its a void ray or pheoniz that comes out. go for a hydra den if pheonix, or muta on void rays. Build an extra queen. Your present queens should start making creep tumors, and meanwhile, my zerglings are going around, scouting for his expansions. I don't know how I'll succeed though. Any thoughts guys? | ||
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pnoize
Philippines4 Posts
On August 24 2010 11:53 delaharl wrote: If it were me, I'd already have an OL in his base, checking out his other buildings. If its a Stargate, it means either pheonix or void ray. Once my initial push fails, I'll upgrade to lair immidietly, along with making a evo chamber. Get a spore crawler in your bases, and see if its a void ray or pheoniz that comes out. go for a hydra den if pheonix, or muta on void rays. Build an extra queen. Your present queens should start making creep tumors, and meanwhile, my zerglings are going around, scouting for his expansions. I don't know how I'll succeed though. Any thoughts guys? I think a standard transition to mutas should suffice though, since it's already a viable path down from the 5RR. Protoss air I find fails against mass mutas. | ||
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delaharl
Philippines5 Posts
I'm now having a few problems with the timing. Seems I can't push through to some players. It definitely helps to attack when you're zerglings are on the way already, that way, when the supply goes down, in comes the lings. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Analysis of the build vs protoss: Against 2gate, I would recommend simply making the 4-5 roaches and powering drones. It seems that if you try to attack your force will be demolished since you wont be able to bust in before they get a cyb core and a stalker or two up and at that point you are in some deep shit(they can just counter-attack and force the instant gg). It depends on the map and their building placement though but the fact of the matter is that any dangerous follow up such as 4gate will come almost a minute later due to their later cyb core which means you can power drones that much harder. Not taking advantage would be a mistake in my opinion. Against 1base 1gate+cyb: It depends on the map/ramp layout, but if they chrono boost 2 sentries out instead of chronoing their warp gate tech, the sheer amount of force fields they can produce to stall you while getting a stalker or two up is just too much to handle. If you see them chronoing their cyb core however it is almost a guaranteed win as they will have at most 1-2 zealots and maybe a sentry when you come knocking. Many people even as high as 900 diamond will actually go completely all in and just wall with a single zeal hoping that warpgate tech will finish the game for them. Against 1gate forge FE. It depends a lot on their wall and their building sequence, if they went 1gate nexus before forge, you can usually bust through no problem. If they went 1gate forge and cannons to wall their choke before nexus, you will be throwing your units away. If they do however, you can just safely drone whore all the way to mutas and just harass them while taking the entire map. Just have to watch out for phoenixes. What I find the major advantage of preparing a build like this from the get go is that on 2player maps, your overlord will be able to scout exactly what is coming before you have to commit to making the roaches and I believe that is the strength of this build. You can opt to simply not do it if it turns out it would be disadvantageous to go through with it. I'll look at providing some replays to support my musings(haven't saved any lately) but I think most of what I'm saying is pretty self evident. All in all, it's a really nice opening option that fills a hole of zergs weak early game that I never knew could be filled. It just simply never crossed my mind that getting both ling speed and investing in roaches could be a good idea so I never tried it and once I did, it was a very pleasant surprise. Thank you Fistdantilus! | ||
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f0rk
England172 Posts
On August 24 2010 14:50 Alsn wrote: Against 1base 1gate+cyb: It depends on the map/ramp layout, but if they chrono boost 2 sentries out instead of chronoing their warp gate tech, the sheer amount of force fields they can produce to stall you while getting a stalker or two up is just too much to handle. If you see them chronoing their cyb core however it is almost a guaranteed win as they will have at most 1-2 zealots and maybe a sentry when you come knocking. Many people even as high as 900 diamond will actually go completely all in and just wall with a single zeal hoping that warpgate tech will finish the game for them. This is exactly my experiance, I got 3 roaches up to the zealot before he could forcefield, and from there soaked a lot of damage and busted in just as warp gate was finishing. Then it was simply pumping lings (and a few more roaches I think) to easily keep up the pressure and stop 2 big of an army warping in off 4 gates. | ||
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Frost-Duty
United Kingdom10 Posts
Having major success against protoss and terran. P has been especially fun, as this build PUNISHES teching so badly. Have beated 2 void ray rushers so far. 5 roaches come up and they just pound through the door and are followed by a bunch of lings. Its GG. Even with a stalker or 2 out im finding the roaches give as good as they get, and then the lings finish off. Vs T i have actually had less success, mainly i think due to kulas ravine popping up a few times, and the HUGE walk distance making my roaches arrive a little late. But overall a great build, includes an FE and provides a huge amount of early game pressure. Seems far better than banelings VS T. They WILL get the front supply depot down, and the they can wander in and assault! | ||
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