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sweet sweet stuff.
Having some way to have some early pressure against your opponent is quite awesome, and it should make terrans rethink their openers if this becomes popular, terran will no longer be able to do anything at all and still be completely safe, it should make it a lot more dynamic.
Its similar to a protoss going double gateway against zerg. You do it because some early pressure will limit your opponent's options, because if your opponent is too greedy, you have a chance to outright win, and because if you cant put much pressure, then you dont lose much. Same thing opening with a reaper against toss as terran. You dont do it because you expect it to win you the game. You do it to limit his options, because it doesnt cost you much, and it has the potential to win the game depending on what your opponent did.
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United States136 Posts
On August 21 2010 01:22 morimacil wrote:
sweet sweet stuff.
Having some way to have some early pressure against your opponent is quite awesome, and it should make terrans rethink their openers if this becomes popular, terran will no longer be able to do anything at all and still be completely safe, it should make it a lot more dynamic.
Its similar to a protoss going double gateway against zerg. You do it because some early pressure will limit your opponent's options, because if your opponent is too greedy, you have a chance to outright win, and because if you cant put much pressure, then you dont lose much. Same thing opening with a reaper against toss as terran. You dont do it because you expect it to win you the game. You do it to limit his options, because it doesnt cost you much, and it has the potential to win the game depending on what your opponent did.
Thank you, I obviously couldn't say it better myself even through 5 pages. =)
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It seems pretty solid.
i'm going to try it tonight ( 400/500 diamond zerg noob btw)
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Thank you for posting this!
Going to try it out tonight.
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Hey man, first of all thanks for sharing this strategy.
I read it and thought it should be a nice new thing to try.
However, i have to agree to what some ppl wrote here:
Noone in your replays is even decent.
One Terran player doesnt scout your base/expansion at all, he doesnt even know in which position you are, and the other guy does a stupid allin which is hard countered by your build.
I tried the 5RR against a friend of mine who i usually beat like 30-0 (in BW, and im even further ahead in SC2, except for that he plays Terrans) and the first thing he did after i killed his scout and i didnt have my hatch down at the natural, was just use his next scan to see the roach warren. Even though hes really quite new to SC2 he was putting down the techlab and building marauders with concusive shell, which was gg right there. The one guy from your replay even sees the roachwarren somewhat later, he also makes a techlab but keeps building marines(???).
So imho, vs Terran this build is not viable at all, even my Platinum Noob friend could beat it in his first encounter ever, especially since ZvT there is always the danger of a Banelingbust, so a scan is 100% necessary and i have seen it coming alot when i did the Banelingbust.
Vs Toss it might be ok, but i really think that someone good should be able to defend this easily with gateways units, sentries can easily block the ramp until stalkers are out, or make roaches fight melee vs zealots. At least they can not scout it as quick though.
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On August 20 2010 23:51 schiznak wrote:
I saw fantaprime (rumored to be julyzerg do this in a zvt)
Yea I first saw this by Dimaga on Steppes in some tournament (I think KotB). However, Dimaga did it differently, I think he got Zling speed first, and then saved up 125 gas, then pulled drones off gas, and this was right as roach warren was finishing. He then went to push out, but I recall it didn't work, but I felt like it was very clever when I saw it. I tried this build on ladder(the one dimaga did, don't know how similar it is to OPs), and it worked really well vs the toss I played, only ran int 1 T and it didn't work. I think this build could be very solid, and I think the game vs whiplash shows that you can transition out of it reasonably well.
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Good job OP. Innovation is what we need for Zerg atm, keep it coming
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you could do a 14 gas and 21 warren, and i think you are able to get speed with ur first 100gas and afford the 5 roaches as soon as the warren is finished
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Just tried this build, and it worked quite well. Lead to an automatic win
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I really like this idea. For people who dont seem to read the entire OP or watch the replays i will explain something to you.
This is NOT a win every time build. I am sure there are tons of builds that will beat this. This IS however a very storng opening against Zealots and marines and good at an early non-baneling way to get through a wall of. I have done very similar things but have not gotten it refined as much as this build is. I appreciate how much work was done in this thread by Fistdantilus by helping poeple who dont understand the build.
Good work!
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Great ideas here Fistdantilus. Have you tried tweaking it in YABOT to get roaches out faster?
I'll try it tonight against a practice partner. Thanks for sharing.
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On August 20 2010 22:33 Fistdantilus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 14:42 PJA wrote:I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in. I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core. Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it): ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-140729.jpg) EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad. On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it. Thanks for posting your replay; I think it will add something to the discussion.
REGARDING SCOUTINGYou have roughly 10 seconds to kill or chase away the enemy worker with your 2 lings before you throw off your timings. Always stick the roach warren in the back of your base. If his worker is on creep, trust me when i say it will die in 2 seconds tops. There are some people who will run the worker around for awhile and I'm forced to put it down before it dies. However, that is rare. Most people will not sacrifice their worker for another 15 seconds of vision of your base. Back to your replay: You ran a probe in, and quickly ran out. Against me, you would NOT have seen the roach warren as you didn't send the probe back into his base after that. He started the warren right after pool whereas I don't. I will not start the roach warren until after the worker is dead or gone in most cases. Killing a worker with only 2 lings isn't difficult or time consuming, apparently contrary to popular belief. Your opponent has excellent unit control, but I think he could really benefit from a better build order. It doesn't have to be mine, it's just that he quickly falls behind in worker count 30-16. He also used early energy on a creep tumor when his roaches were moving out, which means he couldn't reinforce with lings. There is zero chance you survive that game against my build. I'm not trying to be conceited, I'm just pointing out that he had 6 roaches against your 3 zealots 2 stalkers and another 10-14 lings would have ended the game right there. But, he laid a creep tumor.
Yeah, his larva injects were pretty delayed, which is a result of him trying to micro too hard probably. I think you overestimate how well 2 lings will stop my scout, though. This game I ran out immediately because I saw roach warren. If I don't see the roach warren but I see you start some eggs right when pool finishes I'm gonna get my probe out and send him back in from the sides 10-15 seconds later. Sometimes I see the warren then, in which case I expand this early, sometimes I don't, in which case I'll have to delay the expo and get a 3rd gateway first.
Anyway, if anyone wants to play this build against 2 gate I'd rather do that than theorycraft. Time//175 on battle.net. If I need to adjust my build to deal with this I'd rather know now than before I lose in some tournament 
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Wow this build is amazing. Every time I kill like 10 zealots with 5-7 roaches and then there are only 2-3 stalkers to deal with 20 lings.
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okay this build is amazing. I've used it for every toss and terran i've played for about 10 games now, most of them were insta win after the lings came with the speed. I'm a mid level diamond 550ish.
you're worried about the opponent scouting?? Most players have scouted too early, and way before the roach warren goes down... you'll have 2 lings by the time the scout has come and you can seriously kill it or run it out.
it works exactly like he has said. Leaves you in a pretty good economic shape so if it does fail you can hop right back up.
this was even successful when terran made marauders... just make sure you bust the wall... he'll have 2 coming out most likely, but all i experienced was marines and hellions. then all your ling reinforcements come in and tear shiet up!
thank you sooooooo much for this build, i've been struggling early game, and i love to put pressure early game.... but before this was very very hard.
thank you again.
I haven't gotten past the 10 minute mark yet, i'm still waiting to see what happens if i do... actually can't wait.
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I like this build and will definately give it a shot. Can you give us any further insights on which maps this build works particularly good in or which maps this build is unusable?
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i'm SO EXCITED to try this build when I get back from work! i've been lamenting the fact that there are no real reliable ways to put pressure on T/P in the early game, and at my level (low 400 diamond noob) i'm sure this will be successful. i'll be posting replays of my attempts as soon as i can :D
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Nice to see someone being aggressive as a zerg player in the early game and thanks for making this post.
Don't listen to the haters who wouldn't even watch the replays you provided. I recently prefer a gas before pool - second queen into hatch - style against terran but your build i will remember. It's a nice tool to have in your box as zerg i think.
edit: ohh and LOL @ the terran complaining after he tried to proxy 3 rax against you on metalopolis
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I like this a lot. It's also very nice to finally have a decent opening that will let me put some pressure on my opponent. Great post Fisty (If you get this reference, you are a damn winner forever), keep up the great work! :D
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I am actually finding some success with this in diamond. Will post replays once I get a good amount of them. This should go in the liquipedia.
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EPT
