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[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
August 20 2010 05:02 GMT
#21
Don't listen to all these non-diamond idiots who don't
A) read your post
and
B) watch the replays

Having watched the replays I can say that this would have a very tough time vs a terran who walls with fac/rax and not a supply depot/tech
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
Vaporized
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 05:05:22
August 20 2010 05:04 GMT
#22
punishes any kind of tech play. im in plat and my roach rush isnt quite as smoothed out as yours. gonna give it a try. i think this might be good against quick reapers too which is so common. i like the hatch going down when you push out also.

obsid - a quick starport is part of the 1-1-1 build that many, many terrans do against zerg. l2p.
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 05:07:58
August 20 2010 05:07 GMT
#23
On August 20 2010 14:02 itzbrandnew wrote:
Having watched the replays I can say that this would have a very tough time vs a terran who walls with fac/rax and not a supply depot/tech


Correct! That's one of those times where you just turn around and go home, or set up a hellion contain in front of his base. Though the 5RR is very good against rax/fax that are placed at the bottom of the ramp.

It's possible as well to scout with your lings to even avoid making the roaches if you see this, but I generally make the roaches to do a hellion contain anyway and make drones instead of lings.
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
August 20 2010 05:11 GMT
#24
On August 20 2010 14:04 Vaporized wrote:
i think this might be good against quick reapers too which is so common.


It definitely is, but the key is to make a roach or two after your initial group leaves so you have some defense.

Got into a game today where we base-traded 7 minutes in because reapers killed my main and he flew away on LT to the island. I won, but it took 30 minutes. -_-
dlordtemplar
Profile Joined August 2010
United States7 Posts
August 20 2010 05:12 GMT
#25
Watched the replays and thought it over. It's a nice strat. Definitely puts the hurt on greedy play, while retaining that zergy pressure and macro-fest afterwards. I like this, and I'm definitely going to try it. I've been looking for a better strat than the ol' bling bust, and this looks great.
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
August 20 2010 05:13 GMT
#26
On August 20 2010 14:07 Fistdantilus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2010 14:02 itzbrandnew wrote:
Having watched the replays I can say that this would have a very tough time vs a terran who walls with fac/rax and not a supply depot/tech


Correct! That's one of those times where you just turn around and go home, or set up a hellion contain in front of his base. Though the 5RR is very good against rax/fax that are placed at the bottom of the ramp.

It's possible as well to scout with your lings to even avoid making the roaches if you see this, but I generally make the roaches to do a hellion contain anyway and make drones instead of lings.


I'm not really set in any race and have been playing all three... I'm going to try zerg opening with this since playing as Z my main gripe is that I don't have a very good opening to execute (especially vs smart terrans with good walls)

Thanks for the quick response!
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
teamsolid
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada3668 Posts
August 20 2010 05:27 GMT
#27
Problem with this build is.. any actually decent Terran will open speed reaper and be harassing you in your base, so he'll already have the rax(es) w/tech lab available to pump a marauder + bunker immediately as soon as he scouts the roach warren.

Vs. Protoss I can see it working decently vs 2-gate if the P doesn't see it coming at all, but like you said in the cons, if they scout well they can hold it off nicely and put you at a disadvantage. I'll still give it a try and see how it goes.
Fistdantilus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States136 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 05:36:31
August 20 2010 05:34 GMT
#28
Most terrans going reapers will focus on reapers first and foremost, which means less gas for marauders. To be honest, I think today was the closest I've gotten to losing to reapers while doing this opening.

Most terrans I face don't go for reapers once they see the gas before hatch, as reapers are just not that effective vs early speedlings or roaches.

EDIT: before screaming about the LzGamer reaper replays, both zerg went hatch before gas which completely sucks against reaper openings.
Solitaire
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada15 Posts
August 20 2010 05:40 GMT
#29
Great post Fistdantilus, hopefully you'll just ignore most of the instant criticism on the first page. I'll definitely have to give this build a try...
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 05:55:33
August 20 2010 05:42 GMT
#30
I think that you must be playing against people who are going 2 gate and either don't scout well or are dumb. With the small number of lings that you make, there's a very good chance that the protoss will see your roach warren going down around the time the queue the 2nd+3rd zealots, and then they can just throw down gas+cyber and get 2 stalkers asap. 1-2 stalkers+5 zealots>>5 roaches, even with a few lings added in.

I've been playing 2 gate against zerg, and on most maps if they go straight roach warren without making lings you can even get away with expanding immediately after cyber core.

Example (I had at least one other replay, but I can't find it): [image loading]

EDIT: I watched the ZvP games. As expected, the toss players both made pretty big mistakes early. On both LT and Delta Quadrant, both toss players used all of the chrono boosts on workers, which is pretty greedy, and IMO is pretty bad style. Especially on LT, where he scouted the roach warren. Even after scouting the roach warren, he only made zealots and sentries, and even had the gateway not producing units for a while, while is pretty bad.

On delta the toss even got warpgate while you were attacking him and didn't make use of it.
www.infinityseven.net
pechkin
Profile Joined August 2010
158 Posts
August 20 2010 05:46 GMT
#31
i can only suggest to build pool earlier and build 2 lings to kill that annoying scout, so he wouldnt know what you are doing
something like
9ol
11/12 pool
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 05:50:55
August 20 2010 05:49 GMT
#32
The terran replays don't really show anything, the T players didn't know how to repair, one of them only made a couple marines, and the other did an incredibly dumb proxy rax rush. Repairing the wall + defending definitely works, I've done it before. The roaches can focus the SCVs but you can pull the SCVs back, run to repair the wall, etc. You lose a few SCVs at worst by time the roaches have to leave.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
southern
Profile Joined June 2010
United States4 Posts
August 20 2010 05:53 GMT
#33
Watched the replays, gonna try this out against friends before going ranked, looks good to go though.
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
August 20 2010 06:13 GMT
#34
Very nicely made post. For all of the people criticizing or offering better strategies, I recommend uploading replays as Fistdantilus has done to support his claims. In particular the claims of "I do this or I do that and it's better." They don't make for great discussion.

Back to the topic.

If you do scout early double tech lab rax or two gate cyber for quick stalkers, what's your next move? Retreat back to the natural and spine crawler up or simply the mass speedlings?
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
August 20 2010 06:17 GMT
#35
Good post OP, don't let the haters get you down.

Typical TL lately has been: "show a replay or you're just theorycrafting." Then, when you provide replays it turns into "you played a bunch of noobs, that would never work in plat+" even though you're beating 600D opponents. So let them hate. I, for one, will play with your ideas.

I really like 1 base ling/roach openings against P lately. I can easily fend off 2 gates, and tend to be in a very good spot for the inevitable 4 gate (I expand immediately when I see the cyber core or just lack of a 2nd gate).

I have completely crushed the 2-gate>4-gate>expand play that is so typical these days, so I am pretty happy sticking to lings and roaches for quite a while. I wish they would do something about 2 supply Roaches as it's super easy to get supply blocked in a straight 4-gate situation, and that WILL cost you the game every time against a decent opponent, but other than that, I can vouch, from experience, ling/roach with only 1 or 2 spine crawlers at the expo is the way to go against 4 gate.

I, personally go much heavier on the ling early, and I am content to just having a ball of 10 lings keeping tabs on Ps ramp until he pushes out. But I will try out these early Roaches, they might just let me end the game right there if he's going Void Rays or something really bad like that.

Against T, I'm not sure if I am so supportive. Don't get me wrong, I always build a Roach Warren while my Lair is morphing, but earlier roaches means less, and later Mutas. I prefer to transition back down to roaches after I see T has 20 Marines, 5 Thors, a handful of Hellions, and no Tanks. I'll give it a try though. Anything that forces more units out of T earlier sounds great to me, maybe I can go for early roaches and skip ling speed until later or something... we'll see.

Thanks for the good post.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
August 20 2010 06:28 GMT
#36
Fistdantilus the good players here appreciate your reps. Especially since it's zerg and something new and you posted a ton of reps.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
swymaboi
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada85 Posts
August 20 2010 06:28 GMT
#37
On August 20 2010 12:35 Fistdantilus wrote:
It's like none of you even read the post before responding? =(



too many ppl on TL like this

Just shutting down ideas/BOs/strats just cause they think they're better than the OP or they think they could have responded better the OP's Opponents

NEWS FLASH TL: If his opponents knew he was doing this exact build i'm pretty sure they would have responded differently

So to the people whom are saying that scouting will stop this dead, when you see a roach warren, you know they will be doing the 5RR for sure? 100%?

as for the build

I will definitely try using this...I can't be going speedling/muta for all the games.

One question, if the RR fails and they counter attack, is it possible to defend and not fall too far behind in econ??

ZvZ? no, it is JvZ
TitleRug
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States651 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-20 06:30:23
August 20 2010 06:30 GMT
#38
Good post. Will definitely try when playing off race.
coLCruncher fighting!
MrBitter
Profile Joined January 2008
United States2940 Posts
August 20 2010 07:30 GMT
#39
How does this do against Terrans who wall with a factory and a barracks instead of using a depot?
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
August 20 2010 07:38 GMT
#40
On August 20 2010 15:28 swymaboi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2010 12:35 Fistdantilus wrote:
It's like none of you even read the post before responding? =(



too many ppl on TL like this

Just shutting down ideas/BOs/strats just cause they think they're better than the OP or they think they could have responded better the OP's Opponents

NEWS FLASH TL: If his opponents knew he was doing this exact build i'm pretty sure they would have responded differently

So to the people whom are saying that scouting will stop this dead, when you see a roach warren, you know they will be doing the 5RR for sure? 100%?

as for the build

I will definitely try using this...I can't be going speedling/muta for all the games.

One question, if the RR fails and they counter attack, is it possible to defend and not fall too far behind in econ??



Obviously I can't know if he's going 5RR when I scout roach warren or if he's going roach all-in or if he's only make 3 roaches. The thing is, it doesn't really matter, I'm getting stalkers ASAP in any case.

I think his post is helpful, I just think he's overestimating its ability to dominate 2 gate. PvZ is by far my best matchup, and when I get pretty happy when I see the early roach warren because it really narrows down their options for the first 5-6 minutes.
www.infinityseven.net
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