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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2010 01:58 Spyfire242 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"? A few might imply 3, but infact he lost to 5 terrans lololol. Yea sure the PR isn't about statistics but flash getting #1 is so laughable, he felt so weak this month I wouldn't even place him at #2.
He's still the favorite against any non-Terran that isn't Jaedong. Given that Effort had a rough month as well, and that Fantasy naturally does better in a month that has no high-pressure games to win, I'd say dropping him below number 2 is unreasonable. I don't agree that he should be number 1, but Flash hasn't done badly enough to drop further than that.
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On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd.
What is sad, is Plexa fanboy blindness right now, with that level he should just stepped down to do the PR this month.
his facts and reasons are indeed laughable. suddenly Ruby and Really are consistent terran TvT genius. Then Jaedong wins he doesnt care, so he just reduced them . Flash losing ACE matches since previous month, sure that doesnt count too right?. barely 50% wins? Jaedong mental strength? he lost 3-0 and jaedong is just fine, he is so solid, but meh, plexa doenst care.
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Man some people are even quoting me as to why Flash shouldn't be #1.
I said I'd understand if he wasn't, not that I don't think he's still the best player. :o
Also, fuck yes Stats owns eat shit everyone who isn't Stats. #1 Stats fan TTT signing up.
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I think Plexa could've gotten away with Flash being at number one, but he chose the wrong line of reasoning. Flash did not feel as untouchable this month as Jaedong. He instead needed to emphasize the moment and leniency accrued since October.
Also, trying to explain each game by itself and showing how Flash's games were deserving and Jaedong's games weren't is a huge gaffe. The errors in logic, misinformation, and double standards really made it seem unfair.
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On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"?
So Flash fanboys will do anything to defend him, even if it means calling Free "the current best Protoss in the world"? lol
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
Poll: Who deserves #1 on PR this month?Jaedong (154) 63% Flash (92) 37% 246 total votes Your vote: Who deserves #1 on PR this month? (Vote): Flash
(Vote): Jaedong
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2010 03:53 BPCoffee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"? So Flash fanboys will do anything to defend him, even if it means calling Free "the current best Protoss in the world"? lol
Highest ELO, tied for furthest advancement in individual leagues with Kal, who is generally just sucking right now. Care to name a Protoss who's actually doing better? Stats is on the PR above him, but has way less games in individual leagues, so I'm not convinced (and I'm much more of a Stats fan than a Free fan).
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On July 02 2010 03:51 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd. What is sad, is Plexa fanboy blindness right now, with that level he should just stepped down to do the PR this month.
*blows whistle* Time Out!
Okay, people, let's chill out here.
You think Plexa's wrong, fine, say so - preferably with something to back it up. I've done so myself, nothing wrong with disagreeing with the PR. If everyone agreed, we wouldn't have one.
But don't say "OMG Plexa so dumb," or the equivalent. First, it's rude; second, it's inaccurate; third, it will most likely get you banned if a moderator in a bad mood comes wandering through here; and lastly, it contributes very little to the discussion.
Thank you.
*whistle* Play on!
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On July 02 2010 03:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 03:53 BPCoffee wrote:On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"? So Flash fanboys will do anything to defend him, even if it means calling Free "the current best Protoss in the world"? lol Highest ELO, tied for furthest advancement in individual leagues with Kal, who is generally just sucking right now. Care to name a Protoss who's actually doing better?
Bisuuuuuu!!!!!!.... in about a month hopefully?
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On July 02 2010 03:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 03:53 BPCoffee wrote:On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"? So Flash fanboys will do anything to defend him, even if it means calling Free "the current best Protoss in the world"? lol Highest ELO, tied for furthest advancement in individual leagues with Kal, who is generally just sucking right now. Care to name a Protoss who's actually doing better?
PvT 58%
PvZ 57%
PvP 50%
Never won a single individual league either.
That's best? lol
For god's sakes, he's even below Stats in the PR.
Let's just exaggerate the difficulty of opponent for EVERY opponent Flash faces, yeah I mean Ruby has an awesome TvT, it's S Class! /sarcasm
The sad thing is, most Jaedong fans will actually admit if JD doesn't deserve #1, but you Flash fanboys are so stubborn beyond reason, sigh
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On July 02 2010 03:42 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 03:34 J1.au wrote:
Funny how Flash is the current #1 on KeSPA and ELO and some people don't think he should be #1 on PR. One poor month doesn't erase eight months of domination. It's been said before, but the Power Rank is not about ELO or KeSPA rank. It's something different (some would say more), or we could just publish the ELO every month and have done.
On the contrary, the Power Rank has everything to do with the ELO and KeSPA rankings. How could you possibly determine who is the most "powerful" player in the scene without consulting them? I'm not saying the ranking is based entirely off them, but they must be taken into consideration if the ranking is to reflect reality.
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All three are based off how well a player is playing. Thus, the positions are usually similar since they are all based off of games, wins and losses to some degree. However, they are not judged under the same criteria, so the PR does not factor in ELO or Kespa, so it is fallacious to use one's placing in one ranking as justification for another.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:01 BPCoffee wrote:
PvT 58%
PvZ 57%
PvP 50%
Never won a single individual league either.
So? The fact that Bisu and Stork were great a year ago doesn't make them good now. Kal was better than Free, but has been in total free-fall. Like it or not, Free's performance has been better recently than basically any other Protoss (and yes, I'm saying Free > Stats--Stats just doesn't have the experience to back up his recent solid play).
EDIT: I also like how you completely dodged the question. You simply spouted statistics and deferred to the Power Rank, not naming a Protoss player who is convincingly better than Free.
On July 02 2010 04:01 BPCoffee wrote:
Let's just exaggerate the difficulty of opponent for EVERY opponent Flash faces, yeah I mean Ruby has an awesome TvT, it's S Class! /sarcasm
I'm not saying his recent TvT was any good. At the same time, I believe there's a large difference between overall deterioration in play quality, and showing some questionable play in a matchup that he basically didn't need to practice for 2-3 weeks.
On July 02 2010 04:01 BPCoffee wrote:
The sad thing is, most Jaedong fans will actually admit if JD doesn't deserve #1, but you Flash fanboys are so stubborn beyond reason, sigh
Actually, a large percentage of Flash fans, myself included, agree that Jaedong deserves spot 1 over Flash. It's just that Fantasy and Effort haven't done convincingly well enough to drop Flash further than spot 2.
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On July 02 2010 04:04 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 03:42 Musoeun wrote:On July 02 2010 03:34 J1.au wrote:
Funny how Flash is the current #1 on KeSPA and ELO and some people don't think he should be #1 on PR. One poor month doesn't erase eight months of domination. It's been said before, but the Power Rank is not about ELO or KeSPA rank. It's something different (some would say more), or we could just publish the ELO every month and have done. On the contrary, the Power Rank has everything to do with the ELO and KeSPA rankings. How could you possibly determine who is the most "powerful" player in the scene without consulting them? I'm not saying the ranking is based entirely off them, but they must be taken into consideration if the ranking is to reflect reality.
One problem is that you can conduct different things from these rankings. You can focus on Flash still being first in elo, or you focus on the fact that he has lost approximately 100 points this month. You can argue that he is still number one in KeSPA, but also that he has lost points and the gap to Jaedong has gotten smaller. It's not that clearcut.
And like Avid said, all these rankings reflect basically the same with some variations.
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9069 Posts
Nice power rank !
I agree with Bisu being at the bottom of the table, although I do believe even in his questionable conditio,n he is better atm than all the player above him up to #4.
There is a lot of symbolism in Bisu's revival. He must indeed climb each little step to the top again and not take anything as give just because he was S-class. This season, Bisu will take the "slump" book written by many players before him, and throw it into the bin. Watch the best protoss player of all time reclaiming his rightful place
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On July 02 2010 03:58 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 03:51 insanet wrote:On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd. What is sad, is Plexa fanboy blindness right now, with that level he should just stepped down to do the PR this month. *blows whistle* Time Out! Okay, people, let's chill out here. You think Plexa's wrong, fine, say so - preferably with something to back it up. I've done so myself, nothing wrong with disagreeing with the PR. If everyone agreed, we wouldn't have one. But don't say "OMG Plexa so dumb," or the equivalent. First, it's rude; second, it's inaccurate; third, it will most likely get you banned if a moderator in a bad mood comes wandering through here; and lastly, it contributes very little to the discussion. Thank you. *whistle* Play on!
I can understand the heat from some fans (I would not go as far as insulting someone though). But letting a guy with a clear bias against one of the top two players in the world write the PR every month and letting him put that one player he hates below his deserved rank multiple times for dubious reasons (remember last month when he put Effort ahead of JD with the opposite arguments of those that he now uses to keep Flash at #1 - back then it was just the one month and everything prior to that was completely irrelevant) just causes heavy reactions.
I vote for Flash in every popularity poll and I like his play more, but for me the reasons for putting Flash at #1 this month are laughable and thus I can understand actual JD fans getting mad at Plexa.
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On July 02 2010 04:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 04:01 BPCoffee wrote:
Let's just exaggerate the difficulty of opponent for EVERY opponent Flash faces, yeah I mean Ruby has an awesome TvT, it's S Class! /sarcasm I'm not saying his recent TvT was any good. At the same time, I believe there's a large difference between overall deterioration in play quality, and showing some questionable play in a matchup that he basically didn't need to practice for 2-3 weeks.
A matchup that he didn't need to practice for 2-3 weeks because players that are not him. Even when Jaedong was "OMG DONGJWA", he always had to practice matchups because Hwaesung, as a team, simply lacked the ability for him to not always give it his all. I sincerely hope that Flash is not having points given for the fact that his teammates are overall a better set than Jaedong's.
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On July 02 2010 02:56 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:32 Mortality wrote:On July 02 2010 02:06 Malinor wrote:On July 02 2010 01:59 Mortality wrote:Hi, you say Flash sucks. I say he is arguably #1 in all of Starcraft right now. And thus far, TLnet agrees with me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133503So if Flash is voted as #1 player in the world right now, the player you would bet your life on winning then why is it inconceivable that he is #1? Power Rank tells you who is strongest. That's it's purpose. Always has been, always will be. If you go back and look at all the controversial choices made since the beginning of when Power Rank was founded, they were always made when the person writing the Power Rank decided they would sooner bet their life on that player than somebody else (or alternatively, wouldn't bet their life on that player at all, and thus ranked them lower than somebody else might have). We had two JD vs Flash polls a month ago with 10.000 votes, and now you quote your own thread after 50 people have voted? And I just checked and it was 18/18 between those two. Simply a very bad argument. edit: offensive writing, sorry Flash won both those polls. But that was then. That was before Flash faced Jaedong in the MSL finals (both times). you need to get your facts straight, he did very much not win the first one.
I checked again and you are correct that I misread, that Jaedong won the first won with 53%.
That doesn't hamper my argument. If half the people think Flash is the strongest in progaming, then why is it so horrible for Flash to maintain his position as #1? Can anybody answer that without going rabid fanboy on me or completely failing to remember what power Rank is supposed to be about?
No. They cannot.
Besides that, you just write the same stuff over and over again since a few weeks, there is nothing new in there (yet you need a whole lot of words everytime).
Get your facts right.
For several weeks I have been saying what exactly?
-Several weeks ago I was attacking fans for prematurely calling him "above bonjwa." See here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=11
-More recently I was talking about ranks 3-10 on the PR + CBNC. I left it as "Flash and Jaedong are 1 and 2." Seen here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=31
-Beyond that, I did not touch the issue of Flash's placement in the PR until within the past 24 hours. My first mention of it was a WTF reaction to people saying Flash was no longer the top Terran. Seen here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=33
Quit being an ass. You clearly have not been reading what I've been saying "over and over again since a few weeks." And then you make personal attacks on me as an individual? WTF is your problem?
No need to respond to that anymore, it is all well established.
What exactly is well established?
I see people talking shit like Flash is not arguably the #1 player in the world when he clearly is.
I see people saying that Power Rank is not about who is the strongest person in progaming when it indisputably is.
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On July 02 2010 04:10 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 04:04 J1.au wrote:On July 02 2010 03:42 Musoeun wrote:On July 02 2010 03:34 J1.au wrote:
Funny how Flash is the current #1 on KeSPA and ELO and some people don't think he should be #1 on PR. One poor month doesn't erase eight months of domination. It's been said before, but the Power Rank is not about ELO or KeSPA rank. It's something different (some would say more), or we could just publish the ELO every month and have done. On the contrary, the Power Rank has everything to do with the ELO and KeSPA rankings. How could you possibly determine who is the most "powerful" player in the scene without consulting them? I'm not saying the ranking is based entirely off them, but they must be taken into consideration if the ranking is to reflect reality. One problem is that you can conduct different things from these rankings. You can focus on Flash still being first in elo, or you focus on the fact that he has lost approximately 100 points this month. You can argue that he is still number one in KeSPA, but also that he has lost points and the gap to Jaedong has gotten smaller. It's not that clearcut. And like Avid said, all these rankings reflect basically the same with some variations.
Or you can focus on both which is that Flash is still first in ELO but only one point above Jaedong. A situation that sums up the month of June quite nicely. Flash on top, but only by the virtue of his past performance.
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Then why's there a discrepancy between that poll, and the one asking who would be number one on the PR? (this is a response to your last sentence)
On July 02 2010 04:18 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 04:10 Malinor wrote:On July 02 2010 04:04 J1.au wrote:On July 02 2010 03:42 Musoeun wrote:On July 02 2010 03:34 J1.au wrote:
Funny how Flash is the current #1 on KeSPA and ELO and some people don't think he should be #1 on PR. One poor month doesn't erase eight months of domination. It's been said before, but the Power Rank is not about ELO or KeSPA rank. It's something different (some would say more), or we could just publish the ELO every month and have done. On the contrary, the Power Rank has everything to do with the ELO and KeSPA rankings. How could you possibly determine who is the most "powerful" player in the scene without consulting them? I'm not saying the ranking is based entirely off them, but they must be taken into consideration if the ranking is to reflect reality. One problem is that you can conduct different things from these rankings. You can focus on Flash still being first in elo, or you focus on the fact that he has lost approximately 100 points this month. You can argue that he is still number one in KeSPA, but also that he has lost points and the gap to Jaedong has gotten smaller. It's not that clearcut. And like Avid said, all these rankings reflect basically the same with some variations. Or you can focus on both which is that Flash is still first in ELO but only one point above Jaedong. A situation that sums up the month of June quite nicely. Flash on top, but only by the virtue of his past performance.
Like I said, it's illogical to use those two rankings to determine the power ranking, since in the end they're all based off the games played, which is what should be focused on, not some statistic. If you're going to respond to this, I'd prefer if you responded to my above post, since my thoughts are most clearly expressed there.
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EPT
