On July 02 2010 05:03 Plexa wrote: Define "meaningless games" - because I would argue the games Jaedong lost were not meaningless and have contributed to Oz falling short this season. Whereas KT just got awarded 1st in Proleague despite Flash losing "important" ace matches.
Flash does not deserve bonus points because of his five consecutive losses being "unimportant". The ranking of a player's team should have no bearing on how well they played those games. A player who shit the bed as badly as Flash has this month on any contender team wouldn't even be considered for the top spot, because of how badly he fucked his team over. The fact that his team managed to stay at the top is a measure of how badly STX has been failing, and how well he (and his team!) played earlier in the season.
Jaedong didn't have the brightest February statistics wise, but that doesn't detract anything from the skill that this man boasts. In particular, his loss against Stork was only a loss because Match Point is a small map - if that game was on a four player map the chances are Jaedong would not have run out of minerals and taken the game. Jaedong is also still in both leagues, and combine this with a strong history and there is no where that Jaedong can be placed but 2nd.
That was after he went 5-4 against a less than stellar lineup of players. So yea, get your facts right Shikyo - Jaedong has been given the benefit of the doubt (and on more than one occasion by other PR writers). Oh, and the number of titles a player has is completely irrelevant. By your logic, Nada would be auto-top 10 every month because he has more titles than anyone.
I have to nit-pick again here. And I freely admit that this is mainly based on my own interpretation. But let me get to it. The crucial difference in this example is that you were defending JD as #2, and he had been the only player remotely close to Flash. Now, while excellent as an example of defending Jaedong and showing consistency, I don't buy it as a reason to support Flash #1.
While much of the Power Rank is based on what we might call fear-factor, Number One - to my mind - has to be the best. Flash is no longer the best. Maybe in potential. Maybe in another month when we get deep into starleagues and playoffs again. But this month he did not play like the best.
Now, if no on else had stepped up to be the best, it would be one thing. If the next best record was 8-5 and dropping out of a Starleague, fine. But that's not the case. Jaedong took the opportunity and ran with it. Sea had a fantastic month. great was amazing until he hit the wall that is Sea. free genuinely looked like the best Protoss in the world for most of the month. fantasy went on an amazing tear. EffOrt stumbled a little in proleague, but disposed of his starleague matches with contemptuous ease. Bisu, newly off a terrible slump, played about 700 times better than Flash this month.
Against that kind of competition, "Eh, we all know he's really the best player," doesn't cut it for justifying number one. It just doesn't. And that's essentially the reasoning you used. Flash being as good as he is, it's not completely ridiculous, but it's still wishy-washy logic.
It feels silly arguing against people who hate on Jaedong for some unknown, nonsensical reason like "ruining the zerg race and making other zergs bad" or something, whatever it was you said. Flash has lost to Ruby and Hiya and Really and Effort and...
I guess his wins over the powerhouses Classic and s2 snatched him the #1 spot.
On July 02 2010 04:52 Plexa wrote:Oh, and the number of titles a player has is completely irrelevant. By your logic, Nada would be auto-top 10 every month because he has more titles than anyone.
What? Of course it wouldn't be the only factor, but accompanied by him going 8-1 this month while the person he's compared to has been sucking, it definitely should be considered. "Benefit of the doubt"? The knowledge that he knows his stuff when he plays well? The reason Jaedong would be #1 if he won a league and played better than anyone, whereas some no-name might be called a fluke? Of course it matters.
I'm surprised Flash is #1 and Jaedong is #2 in MONTHLY power rankings. Overall? Yeah I'd say Flash is probably still ahead of Jaedong in the grand scheme. Though I remember a while ago you said monthly power rankings dealt with more recent events than long term things. But I digress.
Eh, I dunno. It's been a rough month for Jaedong, Flash, and Effort overall. However I'd say performance wise, Jaedong > Flash > Effort for this past month. But then again, maybe it's because Flash lost like 5 crucial ace matches for his team that I'm kinda ambivalent towards him currently. On the plus side, the Flash vs Effort game last night was pretty cool.
Yep, that's when you think of excuses to throw any player ahead of him that might be possible without a complete community outbreak. Like last month. Oh, a possible excuse to put Effort ahead of Jaedong although we all know JD is better overall? Let's do it!!!
Jaedong posting results? Oh god quick, an excuse to not put him first, ummm we all know Flash is good despite him sucking in meaningless games like Ace matches!
"Flash's losses indicate that he has no single weakness in his game - with one or two exceptions, every single one of Flash's losses has been a hard fought battle into the late game." - Plexa
I've been ignoring power rank for long, as it is a totally subjective ranking and there s absolutely no reason to argue over something totally subjective, BUT i got to say that sentence is disgusting as it is.
Flash often plays important games, and he is the most abusive terran player who ever lived on the planet. Sure, his strong mechanics and excelent gamesense make his risky choises less risky, but he probably leads the "games-when-i-open-14-cc" list with 3-4 spots empty behind him, and probably is amongst the candidates for the top spots on the "bunker-rush-ftw" list.
He takes a lot of risks and that's why he s a good player, he cuts back on scouting a lot and relies on gamesense and overall solid and safe play, abusing every single strength of the Terran race, but it's unacceptable to discard his losses as BO disadvantages and accept his wins where he gets early advantage as evidence of his skill. Not to mention he lost games this month where his opponent came back from a disadvantegous position. Flash's "strength" should be the late game, as the better a player is the more chance he has to win if the game progresses into lategame, where his superior mechanics and game-experience should make the difference. Yet, you make it sound like losing in long games is actually a more acceptable thing for the top player as losing in other ways.
I really don t give a crap about rankings anymore, i just read the overall reasoning and what you write about Flash is just wrong.
On July 02 2010 05:20 insanet wrote: lets quote plexa a bit more, plexa statement on previous PR:
you can't argue with results
Unless, you hate jaedong right?
Yep, that's when you think of excuses to throw any player ahead of him that might be possible without a complete community outbreak. Like last month. Oh, a possible excuse to put Effort ahead of Jaedong although we all know JD is better overall? Let's do it!!!
Jaedong posting results? Oh god quick, an excuse to not put him first, ummm we all know Flash is good despite him sucking in meaningless games like Ace matches!
-_- It's absolutely ridiculous.
Complaining about EffOrt > JD last month is just silly. Everyone knew it was going to be a one-month thing, but the fact is that EffOrt scrapped back to win (no matter how bad Flash's play) while JD got trashed. And - iirc - EffOrt had a decently better overall record. I'm not saying stats always speak truth, but in this case the differing finals results were a clear key. That month EffOrt was fairly clearly playing much better; the finals results confirmed this completely.
Imo, a better one is this. A player's losses give more indication of a player's skill than his victories: The more he loses the worse he is. And closely-fought battle? Doesn't that mean you're bad? Isn't it excusable if you get way behind in the early game and just have no chance to come back even though you're better? Losing a closely-fought game against someone like... Ruby... means that... you're not good.
The entire logic in this is wrong and entirely tailored to fit your opinions and objectives. As usual, sadly.
On July 02 2010 05:20 insanet wrote: lets quote plexa a bit more, plexa statement on previous PR:
you can't argue with results
Unless, you hate jaedong right?
Yep, that's when you think of excuses to throw any player ahead of him that might be possible without a complete community outbreak. Like last month. Oh, a possible excuse to put Effort ahead of Jaedong although we all know JD is better overall? Let's do it!!!
Jaedong posting results? Oh god quick, an excuse to not put him first, ummm we all know Flash is good despite him sucking in meaningless games like Ace matches!
-_- It's absolutely ridiculous.
Complaining about EffOrt > JD last month is just silly. Everyone knew it was going to be a one-month thing, but the fact is that EffOrt scrapped back to win (no matter how bad Flash's play) while JD got trashed. And - iirc - EffOrt had a decently better overall record. I'm not saying stats always speak truth, but in this case the differing finals results were a clear key. That month EffOrt was fairly clearly playing much better; the finals results confirmed this completely.
Jaedong gets one-month dropdowns, Flash doesn't. Last one was based on the month. This one isn't. Was my point.
On July 02 2010 05:20 insanet wrote: lets quote plexa a bit more, plexa statement on previous PR:
you can't argue with results
Unless, you hate jaedong right?
Yep, that's when you think of excuses to throw any player ahead of him that might be possible without a complete community outbreak. Like last month. Oh, a possible excuse to put Effort ahead of Jaedong although we all know JD is better overall? Let's do it!!!
Jaedong posting results? Oh god quick, an excuse to not put him first, ummm we all know Flash is good despite him sucking in meaningless games like Ace matches!
-_- It's absolutely ridiculous.
Complaining about EffOrt > JD last month is just silly. Everyone knew it was going to be a one-month thing, but the fact is that EffOrt scrapped back to win (no matter how bad Flash's play) while JD got trashed. And - iirc - EffOrt had a decently better overall record. I'm not saying stats always speak truth, but in this case the differing finals results were a clear key. That month EffOrt was fairly clearly playing much better; the finals results confirmed this completely.
I'm not sure he was entirely serious. From my vantage point, putting Jaedong ahead of EffOrt last month "because we all know he's better!" would have been just as far as Plexa's reasoning this month for Flash > JD. If Flash is a better player than Jaedong, which i'm not convinced of, he's not so by such a huge margin that Flash going 7-7 (0-5 in aces, 2-1 in MSL) and Jaedong going 8-1 (no aces, 2-0 in MSL) isn't enough to make Jaedong the better performer for the month.
I'm not really surprised tbh, after reading your eye-opening anti-Effort screed that became a generalized anti-Zerg rant I knew what to expect in the future. The fact that there needs to be so many paragraphs to justify that choice is pretty telling.
I also like how the exact definition of the Power Rank changes in accordance with what's good for Flash. When Jaedong was having a bad Winners League, he dropped behind even Sea in the PR (in retrospect, another case of blatant favoritism), with arguments along the lines of, "this is the MONTHLY power rank, records matter." Now it's all about remembering how Flash dominated in the past months.
On July 02 2010 00:12 Pandain wrote: 2. Less than 5 minutes before heated discussion over #1. Calling it.
The funny thing is that JD #1 wouldn't have been controversial. Everyone was willing to accept it. So this isn't a "controversial no matter what" decision. Plexa chose the most questionable option.
Well said. Plus, its not like JDs only lost came from being totally dominated. It was an amazing back and forth one of a kind ZvZ. Where as Flash lost games completely without even putting up a fight. Like his loss to Really. Just look at Flash last night in the MSL Ro32. Flash played "well" but he didn't look like a champion or number 1 player. In the final match against s2, he could've lost multiple times. Where as JD dominated his group without ever being at a disadvantage. The PR is bs. Lets just reserve the #1 spot for Flash, and then rank everyone else.
I would have loved to see Jaedong as #1. In my opinion he's the scariest player right now.
Admit it, Flash looked mortal this month. He no longer looked like the god of starcraft we saw make double finals last month. That's why I feel like using his finals runs as justification for #1 is silly. He's not playing the same way he did a month ago. There are holes in his play or mental state right now causing him to drop games. Sure he could patch up those holes anytime and go back to being nearly invincible, but he hasn't yet. And using February's PR as justification for Flash riding his May performance doesn't make sense to me. Even when Jaedong wasn't playing well he and Flash were miles ahead of everyone else. Stork got #3 almost completely on the merit that he was able to beat Jaedong.
If you look at his 7 wins, the list really isn't that impressive. Midas and Kal (neither of which have been playing amazingly) are his best wins. While Backho, Ruby, Really, Classic and S2 round out the list. On the other hand he's also lost 7 times. 5 of those were ace matches which thankfully for KT didn't end up mattering due to STX's slump. But STX's slump allowing KT/Flash to drop games without consequence shouldn't affect Flash's PR ranking. In my opinion 50% win rate and 0-5 in ace matches does not scream best sc player at the moment.
At the same time Jaedong definitely stepped it up this month. 14 win streak in PL; 8-1 overall for the month. Sure some of his opponents weren't anywhere near his level, but just the fact that Plexa takes away wins from Jaedong because he outclassed his opponent so much says something. Also Jaedong beat 2 people (Baby, Stats) in this month's PR while Flash lost to 3 (Effort, Baby, Free). Even Jaedong's one loss was impressive. While most zergs would roll over and die to 9 pool speed when they 12 hatch. Jaedong survived and made an epic game out of it only to lose to some extraordinary plague traps by Yellow.
In conclusion, Jaedong's playing better than Flash right now and getting results. Consequently Jaedong deserves #1. But if Flash fixes whatever problem he's been having and goes back to his previous 2440 elo form, I'd have no problem seeing him #1 next month unless Jaedong steps it up even more.
On July 02 2010 05:20 insanet wrote: lets quote plexa a bit more, plexa statement on previous PR:
you can't argue with results
Unless, you hate jaedong right?
Yep, that's when you think of excuses to throw any player ahead of him that might be possible without a complete community outbreak. Like last month. Oh, a possible excuse to put Effort ahead of Jaedong although we all know JD is better overall? Let's do it!!!
Jaedong posting results? Oh god quick, an excuse to not put him first, ummm we all know Flash is good despite him sucking in meaningless games like Ace matches!
-_- It's absolutely ridiculous.
Complaining about EffOrt > JD last month is just silly. Everyone knew it was going to be a one-month thing, but the fact is that EffOrt scrapped back to win (no matter how bad Flash's play) while JD got trashed. And - iirc - EffOrt had a decently better overall record. I'm not saying stats always speak truth, but in this case the differing finals results were a clear key. That month EffOrt was fairly clearly playing much better; the finals results confirmed this completely.
I'm not sure he was entirely serious. From my vantage point, putting Jaedong ahead of EffOrt last month "because we all know he's better!" would have been just as far as Plexa's reasoning this month for Flash > JD. If Flash is a better player than Jaedong, which i'm not convinced of, he's not so by such a huge margin that Flash going 7-7 (0-5 in aces, 2-1 in MSL) and Jaedong going 8-1 (no aces, 2-0 in MSL) isn't enough to make Jaedong the better performer for the month.
That's exactly the point I'm making... PR's should be made with a constant formula and not change it around to drop Jaedong as low as humanly possible.
lol wtf is Fantasy doing at #3 on the Power Ranking?
I agree that Flash and Jaedong should be #1 and #2 respectively but Effort should be #3 after his performance during MSL Group A. Fantasy should be on Top 10, but DEFINITELY NOT #3.
On July 02 2010 06:19 Silentness wrote: lol wtf is Fantasy doing at #3 on the Power Ranking?
I agree that Flash and Jaedong should be #1 and #2 respectively but Effort should be #3 after his performance during MSL Group A. Fantasy should be on Top 10, but DEFINITELY NOT #3.
i thought he hated zergs? in that case, why are you even asking?
I'm not really surprised tbh, after reading your eye-opening anti-Effort screed that became a generalized anti-Zerg rant I knew what to expect in the future. The fact that there needs to be so many paragraphs to justify that choice is pretty telling.
I also like how the exact definition of the Power Rank changes in accordance with what's good for Flash. When Jaedong was having a bad Winners League, he dropped behind even Sea in the PR (in retrospect, another case of blatant favoritism), with arguments along the lines of, "this is the MONTHLY power rank, records matter." Now it's all about remembering how Flash dominated in the past months.
On July 02 2010 00:12 Pandain wrote: 2. Less than 5 minutes before heated discussion over #1. Calling it.
The funny thing is that JD #1 wouldn't have been controversial. Everyone was willing to accept it. So this isn't a "controversial no matter what" decision. Plexa chose the most questionable option.
EPT
