EPTFinally some heated debate, yay!
Power Rank 07/02/2010 - Page 8
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Aesop
Hungary11300 Posts
Finally some heated debate, yay! | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:07 Avidkeystamper wrote: All three are based off how well a player is playing. Thus, the positions are usually similar since they are all based off of games, wins and losses to some degree. However, they are not judged under the same criteria, so the PR does not factor in ELO or Kespa, so it is fallacious to use one's placing in one ranking as justification for another. Correct. Flash's placement in ELO and KeSPA rankings have nothing to do with Power Rank. But can you convince me that the Flash playing right now is not the same Flash who just made both finals at the same time, winning one of them (over the #2 player)? That's what you have to do to argue why Flash is not #1. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4728 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:17 Mortality wrote: I checked again and you are correct that I misread, that Jaedong won the first won with 53%. That doesn't hamper my argument. If half the people think Flash is the strongest in progaming, then why is it so horrible for Flash to maintain his position as #1? Can anybody answer that without going rabid fanboy on me or completely failing to remember what power Rank is supposed to be about? No. They cannot. Get your facts right. For several weeks I have been saying what exactly? -Several weeks ago I was attacking fans for prematurely calling him "above bonjwa." See here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=11 -More recently I was talking about ranks 3-10 on the PR + CBNC. I left it as "Flash and Jaedong are 1 and 2." Seen here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=31 -Beyond that, I did not touch the issue of Flash's placement in the PR until within the past 24 hours. My first mention of it was a WTF reaction to people saying Flash was no longer the top Terran. Seen here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=128592¤tpage=33 Quit being an ass. You clearly have not been reading what I've been saying "over and over again since a few weeks." And then you make personal attacks on me as an individual? WTF is your problem? What exactly is well established? I see people talking shit like Flash is not arguably the #1 player in the world when he clearly is. I see people saying that Power Rank is not about who is the strongest person in progaming when it indisputably is. It is well established what you think, you have made some very good posts with good arguments. However, you also have a clear Flash bias. And you have made a lot of lengthy posts during the last weeks to convince people that you are right. Still, when you tackle the Jaedong-Flash problematic, you always say the same thing, just from a different angle. | ||
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zmeqt
Bulgaria527 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:11 Fenrax wrote: I vote for Flash in every popularity poll and I like his play more, but for me the reasons for putting Flash at #1 this month are laughable and thus I can understand actual JD fans getting mad at Plexa. It`s not just you.I find this PR like the best long time but i just cannot live up with this: "Flash's losses indicate that he has no single weakness in his game " That`s just..It`s exactly the losses that indicate that a player has weaknesses,i don`t think there is someone who doesn`t agree with that..And i am not a fan of Jaedong ,nor Flash.I can live with this rankings,but the arguements are just not right... | ||
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
Lets quote Savior "I will destroy everyone", we know how that ended. Because what a player says, its always true. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
Sure Ruby is not the best TvTer in the world. Sure his record is 30%, and that's not very good. But honestly, look at this. Most of the people he played against are really good at TvT. Players who have shined in individual leagues. I mean Flash is there 5 times... So yeah, Ruby is not among the best TvTer in the world. But he is on Ace... And many of those games were pretty epic in fact, and not quite the beating you would expect against a 30% guy. Also s2 was never ahead in the game this morning, so I mean, if you want to hold something against Flash, it's ok, but do not talk about the way mech plays out vs Zerg. So anyway, as for the power rank, I really don't know. Sure I understand the anger of Jaedong's fans, but hey, some good point were made for Flash n°1 in this thread (not by Plexa though). In my opinion the worst choice was putting EffOrt n°2 last month. Maybe because I feel CJ fanboys are by far the most annoying here... But the most important thing is that his is going to be a great month for BW, I'm really excited ! Edit : and some of the Plexa bashing here is ridiculous... I mean, even if he's wrong, there's no reason to be that harsh... JWD T1's bias was not really better... | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:11 Fenrax wrote: I can understand the heat from some fans (I would not go as far as insulting someone though). But letting a guy with a clear bias against one of the top two players in the world write the PR every month and letting him put that one player he hates below his deserved rank multiple times for dubious reasons (remember last month when he put Effort ahead of JD with the opposite arguments of those that he now uses to keep Flash at #1 - back then it was just the one month and everything prior to that was completely irrelevant) just causes heavy reactions. I realize you're currently banned, but I'm going to reply to this anyway... because I had started to before the lockdown happened, and because other people have said similar things. On this single case, Plexa's ranking isn't really that implausible. Flash won the games he had to win - even if he looked sloppy - and ruled the world a couple months ago. I think Plexa's wrong, and I think his bias probably plays into it a little bit, but this isn't even completely wild, let along anywhere near the most ridiculous PR ever. On that basis, calling for Plexa's head is ridiculous. Furthermore, who would do it instead? I don't remember everyone who's done the PR, but let's consider: JWD is a T1 slappy. FakeSteve similarly for MBC (and of course Sea). Manifesto did a couple I think, and I don't remember anything particularly wrong with them, but I'm sure he's got his biases too. Let's remember too that everyone doing these write-ups is donating time and effort to this site... and sure maybe the staff could find someone better in theory, but on the other hand people do what they can do. Plus, half the point of the PR is the argument, in my opinion. I'm not advocating wildly inaccurate placements just to get the flames started, but the occasionally biased-but-justifiable pick - like this one - makes the whole thing better and gives us stuff to talk about. On July 02 2010 04:04 J1.au wrote: On the contrary, the Power Rank has everything to do with the ELO and KeSPA rankings. How could you possibly determine who is the most "powerful" player in the scene without consulting them? I'm not saying the ranking is based entirely off them, but they must be taken into consideration if the ranking is to reflect reality. Nonono. The ELO, KeSPA, and Power Ranks all are attempts to keep track of who is the best. What matters - what is behind all of them - are the games. ELO only accounts for win-loss record and relative strength of opponents, and is mechanical. The KeSPA rank makes some attempt to do this, but also weights heavily on results - that is, starleague placement - and perceived strength of play, and is done essentially by committee. The Power Rank tends to try to balance results, strength of play, and known strength of player, and is done by a single writer. Although similar, the three ranks are in fact very different and not at all inter-related except that in the end all are based on, and make an attempt to interpret, the actual record. Since they interpret the data differently, they'll end up with slightly different conclusions - but all are helpful tools. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:26 Mortality wrote: Correct. Flash's placement in ELO and KeSPA rankings have nothing to do with Power Rank. But can you convince me that the Flash playing right now is not the same Flash who just made both finals at the same time, winning one of them (over the #2 player)? That's what you have to do to argue why Flash is not #1. You need convincing that the Flash playing right now is not the same Flash who just made both finals at the same time? It should be obvious to anyone who watched SC. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:37 Avidkeystamper wrote: You need convincing that the Flash playing right now is not the same Flash who just made both finals at the same time? It should be obvious to anyone who watched SC. How is it obvious when the only Terran that Flash had to face in a BoX on his way to dual finals was MVP, to whom he even dropped a game? | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:17 BPCoffee wrote: Ruby is at 30% TvT and Really is at 47% TvT. Yes Jaedong beat ForU. But ForU played an amazing game, standing on his own against JD and you downplay it as a "free win" to Jaedong. Let's also take away all 7 other wins by Jaedong because he didn't deserve it as much as Flash. Hm, I don't think you should try to reason with fanboys. They will either ignore or try to show you their ridiculous "logic". | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:07 Holgerius wrote: The PR takes more than just the past 30 days into account. -__- This one does, yes. And the last one didn't. Hey, let's be inconsistent just to bash on Jaedong! Whee let's make everyone who can't think objectively do the PR! As I said, jaedong has NEVER during the last 3 PR-ers been given an advantage, or the benefit of the doubt, in a close situation. Just look at the last month. It's laughable. All these PRs have become a joke of who you like rather than consistency and rewarding people who play well. And rofl at giving Flash the benefit of the doubt when Jaedong has almost double his titles, give me a break? | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:43 TheYango wrote: How is it obvious when the only Terran that Flash had to face in a BoX on his way to dual finals was MVP, to whom he even dropped a game? Huh? Flash defeated BaBy 2-0 in in the Korean Air OSL Ro8. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
I'm quite amazed that my integrity has been the biggest source of debate in this thread. As many have pointed out, you can make arguments either way for Flash or Jaedong - it depends on your point of view. There is a real debate in there. So if you rabid Jaedong fans would pull your heads out of your ass and realise that this month is not 100% clear cut one way or another and actually engage into the debate then this PR thread would be a lot less of a shitfest. On July 02 2010 04:49 Shikyo wrote: February '10 Power Rank:This one does, yes. And the last one didn't. Hey, let's be inconsistent just to bash on Jaedong! Whee let's make everyone who can't think objectively do the PR! As I said, jaedong has NEVER during the last 3 PR-ers been given an advantage, or the benefit of the doubt, in a close situation. Just look at the last month. It's laughable. All these PRs have become a joke of who you like rather than consistency and rewarding people who play well. And rofl at giving Flash the benefit of the doubt when Jaedong has almost double his titles, give me a break? Jaedong didn't have the brightest February statistics wise, but that doesn't detract anything from the skill that this man boasts. In particular, his loss against Stork was only a loss because Match Point is a small map - if that game was on a four player map the chances are Jaedong would not have run out of minerals and taken the game. Jaedong is also still in both leagues, and combine this with a strong history and there is no where that Jaedong can be placed but 2nd. That was after he went 5-4 against a less than stellar lineup of players. So yea, get your facts right Shikyo - Jaedong has been given the benefit of the doubt (and on more than one occasion by other PR writers). Oh, and the number of titles a player has is completely irrelevant. By your logic, Nada would be auto-top 10 every month because he has more titles than anyone. | ||
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Tianx
United States1196 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:52 Plexa wrote: I'm ashamed that I'm being grouped as a Flash fanboy =/ I'm a die hard pusan/kwanro fan with a massive bias for Stork and fantasy. I like Flash's play and I am a fan of his play, but if he lost every game in both the OSL/MSL I wouldn't rage quit life over it. I would be shocked, but that's about it. Further, if you truly believe I'm so clouded by anti-Jaedong bias that I can't give him credit where it's due then I don't know what I was smoking when I wrote this I'm quite amazed that my integrity has been the biggest source of debate in this thread. As many have pointed out, you can make arguments either way for Flash or Jaedong - it depends on your point of view. There is a real debate in there. So if you rabid Jaedong fans would pull your heads out of your ass and realise that this month is not 100% clear cut one way or another and actually engage into the debate then this PR thread would be a lot less of a shitfest. February '10 Power Rank: That was after he went 5-4 against a less than stellar lineup of players. So yea, get your facts right Shikyo - Jaedong has been given the benefit of the doubt (and on more than one occasion by other PR writers). Oh, and the number of titles a player has is completely irrelevant. By your logic, Nada would be auto-top 10 every month because he has more titles than anyone. So him being #2 when #3 is Stork = giving him the benefit of the doubt? Well if that's the case, I've misunderstood the meaning of the phrase and apologize. In a month where he went 5-4 when Flash went now 7-7 losing every single Ace game he played instead of some meaningless games. Okay, you convinced me. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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NovaTheFeared
United States7224 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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