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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:16 Holgerius wrote: Ya, this sums it up pretty well. Wow, just looked at TLPD, and Flash is close to losing his position as the #1 in ELO for the first time since I don't know how far back.  To be fair though, JD also did something for the first time... 14 pl wins straight Still I agree with this PR | ||
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Fr33t
United States1128 Posts
2. JD lmfao So where's the monthly power rank? I keep going to the wrong one... | ||
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:32 Mortality wrote: Flash won both those polls. But that was then. That was before Flash faced Jaedong in the MSL finals (both times). you need to get your facts straight, he did very much not win the first one. Besides that, you just write the same stuff over and over again since a few weeks, there is nothing new in there (yet you need a whole lot of words everytime). No need to respond to that anymore, it is all well established. | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:51 Cheeseburgered wrote: the amount of butthurt anti fans in this thread is hilarious keep going flash anti fans, you are such good entertainment Jaedong fans, not anti-fans. Or just non Flash fanboys in general. You don't really need to be a big anti-fan to find something wrong with this PR (even though I do maintain that it isn't completely unreasonable). | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:50 Plexa wrote: Baby has been consistently 4/5 for a few months now actually I mean I know great is a good player and all (i PRd him 2 months ago) but he really got a raw deal this month. Still, he's got the MSL to redeem himself and I really hope he does (but he's got a tough group).See, this is my point exactly... he's been 4/5 for a while now with good months. He has an average month, and he doesn't drop at all, despite people like free, great, Bisu, and Sea doing really well. I understand it's not just straight performance, and yes maybe you think he's really still the #5 player and just got a bad deal this month - in which case I guess I have to say I don't think he's as good as you think he is, and leave it be. But I don't have to like it.  On July 02 2010 02:57 Holgerius wrote: I wonder how many of those who are angry that Flash is at #1 have Zerg+Oz icons. Well, I'm not angry exactly, but I do disagree... and mine are Terran/KHAN. But still an interesting question. Also interesting: How many of those lapping it up have Terran+KT? | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
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Ideas
United States8088 Posts
yea he had a great year until june but that's just how fickle starcraft is. many times in past PRs if the #1 player loses games he shouldnt (such as several ace match games) he will be dropped down, no matter how good he's been in the last 6 months. edit- just realized, right now flash is only ONE point ahead of JD in ELO. CMON | ||
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:57 Holgerius wrote: I wonder how many of those who are angry that Flash is at #1 have Zerg+Oz icons. I wonder how many people who raged when Flash was dropped of PR, and kept bringing it up on every other page of every PR for months had Terran+KT icons Nothing weird either case really On July 02 2010 03:04 Ideas wrote: edit- just realized, right now flash is only ONE point ahead of JD in ELO. CMON Jaedong will surpass him after KT vs SKT / Oz vs Khan! | ||
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Macavenger
United States1132 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 02 2010 03:08 Macavenger wrote: Really feel like Bisu deserves higher than 10th given how he won his games last month. I watched most of his games, and it was like watching the old Bisu again, complete one sided rapes all around. I'd switch him with Stats from your rank, as from watching his games I'd say he was clearly the best protoss in the world last month. He's been deservedly off the rank for a long time and putting him much higher than sixth off one month's comeback would probably be unfair, but seriously, he was far better than tenth last month. You do realise that Stats beat Bisu quite convincingly in the OSL seed games right? | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On July 02 2010 03:07 Cpadolf wrote: I wonder how many people who raged when Flash was dropped of PR, and kept bringing it up on every other page of every PR for months had Terran+KT icons Nothing weird either case really As a matter of fact, it's pretty damn logical. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Also i would put JD over Flash this month ez. Also, yay Free and Bisu :D | ||
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durza
United States667 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:01 revy wrote: I predict this PR thread will have the most posts ever. First off, this. I came back from work and read the 88 comments posted; after I had finished (and I read pretty quickly) there are about ten more? Ridiculous. And most of the comments aren't even talking about the rest of the PR, just, predictably, about Flash and Jaedong. To put my bias on the line before everything else: Jaedong is my favourite player (reason I started watching progaming) and Flash is #2 or #3. On July 02 2010 02:29 Holgerius wrote: The PR isn't the same thing as an ELO rank, but I think the ELO shows just how far ahead Flash has been until very, very recently; he loses more than 50% of his games during a month while JD goes on a nice winning streak, and Flash is still ahead. I really don't think Plexa's decision is that unreasonable. Firstly, this. It's already been said and said again that "the Power Ranking isn't simply a show of statistics"--it's about more. Mortality, in his well-constructed post, brings up precedence with Etter for the first Power Rank, so everybody simply arguing based off the fact that Jaedong had a better record than Flash should just stop there. Statistics, however, do have significant relevance in looking at the big picture--they help put things in context. In short, Holgerius is correct here. You look at the ELO and KeSPA rankings for the past month and a bit beyond, Flash and Jaedong are both dominating above others. However, Flash dominates Jaedong. 4000 KeSPA? Ridiculously over Jaedong. His ELO, until recently, was consistently in the 2400s. Even this month's KeSPA rankings show that Flash is still 1100 points over Jaedong, who is 700 over Kal (#3). Flash's ELO is still one point above that of Jaedong's, despite their recent respective records. Undeniably, the gap between the two is largely attributed to obviously more than the most recent month, but that "momentum" that one can derive from said rankings and ratings riding into the month has to be considered as well, and for pre-June times Flash had way more momentum than Jaedong. During that period, the "who's the scariest" award belonged to Flash, so should one month change that? I still believe that Jaedong deserves the top spot this month, but of course it's controversial, and Plexa did call it a judgment pick, so lay off of him people. This thread has been littered with OZ and KT insignias, and Jaedong and Flash fanboys, and of the two camps the Jaedong fanboys are more prone to attacking Plexa. Perhaps it's the fact that I partake in too many Mafia games, but reading comments that simply disparage Plexa because their favourite player is not on top sickens me. Plus, really, what's #1 and #2? Flash fanboys, for the most part, were willing to concede that Jaedong could have deserved and taken the top seat, though Jaedong fans are much more adamant that the Tyrant, not the Ultimate Weapon, should be sitting on the throne. Both sides can bring relevant statistics, observations, and their own personal opinions to the side, and even through everything, I can only side with wanting Jaedong at the top by a tiny bit. Let's consider this: On July 02 2010 01:18 12yearsofsc wrote: Well why not make PR seasonal then? It seems only the finals count and whatever happens in-between months are nothing to take into consideration. Losing 5 ACE matches meaning your team gets 5 losses because of YOU is far less noteworthy than a simple final that mindgames can bring you from 3-0 to 0-3. This is an interesting suggestion. Despite the fact that 12yearsofsc has been posting pretty much useless one-liners in this thread otherwise, this brings an interesting question to my mind: if Power Rank comes out every month, and we had to assign some arbitrary value to how much what had transpired in the month mattered over the momentum of a player at the beginning of the month, where would everyone stand? Flash rode into June with so much more over Jaedong, so how much does that factor into the PR? Obviously, this is up to Plexa, not us to decide. We each have our differing opinions, though I for one want to bring up something nobody has mentioned yet. It is true that Flash has been absolutely sucking in his Ace matches. However, it's not like KT Rolster has been negatively impacted because of this. They still retain their number one spot, and they captured the regular season title with a ticket to the Proleague Grand Finals. In short, Flash's Ace losses, while detrimental to his own record and the overall record of the team, do not actually affect KT in context, since they were already pretty safe. On the other hand, Jaedong winning his matches has helped OZ as he normally has, and they still will be very hard-pressed (read: impossible) to make playoffs. So really, it can be said that it's not that "only finals and stuff akin to them" matters, since in this case it can be seen that Flash's losses really did not affect his team adversely. On July 02 2010 02:45 Musoeun wrote: On the basis of "Power", I think I take issue with this rank. If I look into the future, Flash - short of an unlucky run-up against EffOrt or Jaedong, or a fluke win by some other player - is a favorite to make (and probably win) at least one final AGAIN this season. But that's in the future (and ignoring the possibility that he plays EffOrt or Jaedong earlier). On a monthly basis, I just can't consider Flash #1 right now, because Flash isn't winning ace matches. He's not winning ace matches against players he's already beaten. When it goes to ace, Flash just isn't a favorite right now if the other team has a great player. And - although I don't know if the PR was up before the games - he lost against EffOrt again last night in underwhelming fashion. He's not favored against everybody anymore - EffOrt has demonstrated convincingly that he can beat the "Little Monster" repeatedly, and Flash vs Jaedong is starting to look as dead-even as it always has been. This is leaving out players like Snow and free too, because those might have been flukes. Jaedong has re-established himself as an every-time favorite, where Flash has fallen off meteorically. I know it's only a single month, but I feel like Flash really did lose himself #1 with that string of ace losses. #2, fine, but not number one. I understand these sort of impressions are kind of subjective, and I'm not going to kill you for it, but I really think this was the wrong call. I'll use this excellent post by Musoeun to bring up a question I like asking myself. Who is scarier (as in, who would you be more afraid of facing in a random match)? Between Flash and Jaedong, in my progaming-watching lifespan it has mostly been Flash. When I started watching PL, Flash was just starting his absolute stretch of dominance (around October?) and Jaedong was somewhat in his shadow. This stretch ran all through the EVER OSL, Nate MSL (controversial, so whatever), and through Winner's League, when Jaedong started hitting his mini-slump. However, recently (Hana Daetoo-ish) Jaedong has grown far more scarier in my eyes than Flash, and a lot of comments in LR threads and otherwise share my view when Jaedong steps in the booth to play. Whether this is attributed to the fact that Jaedong seems to play a more raw and adaptive style than Flash, or the fact that Flash is more heavily prepared against (teams know they can beat OZ if they can just take out the three non-Jaedong players) doesn't really matter to me. The point is, with the start of R4 and the no shown lineup policy, Jaedong's power in my eyes has increased. He's much more likely to randomly rape some poor person than Flash does, since everybody has been preparing for Flash. Interestingly enough, in R5 Jaedong OZ hasn't even gone to Ace, but I'm sure that all teams had somebody prepared to try to take him down. Still, Jaedong having not lost an Ace match this Proleague season weighs into my mind as well, so all in all Jaedong is much more intimidating than Flash to watch. Is this power as defined by the power ranking? I think it should at least factor into it, but it's not something defining. Merely another piece of a large puzzle, though in this case I believe Jaedong eclipses Flash, at least for the recent times. Flash is still #1, but his more mechanical playstyle impresses me less than does Jaedong's seemingly thoughtful/less play--adaptation has always been big in my books. The relevant statistics have been discussed to death, in my opinion, so I'm not going to touch upon them other than simply saying that I think Jaedong should have more momentum riding his wins (and even that epic loss to YellOw) since half the time I see Flash play now, a little voice in the back of my mind whispers "well, he could lose, you know... he's been doing so." Seems like my personal Sorting Hat, but whatever. With Jaedong, it's like "ooh, Jaedong. His opponent better have brought the lube, and lots of it" no matter who it is. Is there anything else I've left out? I've kind of petered out by this point and my attention span is short. This can sum up my thoughts: On July 02 2010 03:02 Holgerius wrote: Flash got his free #1 this month, and now he won't be able to ride on previous success any longer. If JD is indeed better than Flash now and deserves to get the spot he'll take it the next month. Flash had a lot of built up momentum and power, important to Plexa as we can see. Jaedong has been doing better lately. The "cushion" has to stop somewhere though. Let's go Jaedong, take #1 next month. I believe. And in the time it took to write this post, 14 more comments were posted. Ridiculous. Good job on the PR, Plexa, especially for the lower ranks. I agree loosely with most of it, and I hope to spam you with more PMs about putting Jaedong at #1 in the coming month! | ||
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
Edit: I haven't seen much talk about it, but with this month Flash has broken the record for consecutive #1 rankings. He was previously tied with Bisu at 8 months, but this ranking will bring his streak to 9 months. | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
On July 02 2010 03:34 J1.au wrote: Funny how Flash is the current #1 on KeSPA and ELO and some people don't think he should be #1 on PR. One poor month doesn't erase eight months of domination. It's been said before, but the Power Rank is not about ELO or KeSPA rank. It's something different (some would say more), or we could just publish the ELO every month and have done. | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
Theoretical: Jaedong 3-0s or 3-1s Flash in MSL, proceeds to lose 5 ZvZ ace matches while winning most of his games outside of aces. Flash wins all but one game since then, an epic TvT against a weaker TvT player. Does Jaedong get the same "build order loss / weak play / deserves slack" talk? It feels like the fact that his losses Ace Matches aren't properly being held against Flash - you only even mentioned that he went 50/50 in your writeup. I can't imagine a player on STX, MBC, Stars, SKT, Fox, Oz or CJ being given the same leeway for losing those kind of games. Just because KT has secured its playoff spot doesn't mean that the Ace losses aren't worse overall - it speaks volumes about how good KT as a team is, relative to one-man shows like Oz or Hite, that they're able to secure their #1 seed even with their star player losing them five matches in a row in his strongest matchup. Fairness doesn't feel as though it's being applied here. Previous results or no, I can't imagine any other player getting the treatment Flash is here. The Ace Match is where the team's Ace is supposed to step up and show that his team is correct in choosing him. But, five times in June, Flash did not step up. He did not show that he team was correct in choosing him, because five consecutive times he was the worse player. Even against RuBy, a 27% lifetime TvTer in a game long enough where he should have been able to come out on top. Softball months are understandable - Flash, Jaedong and Bisu all received them at one point or another on the PR. But what did JD have to do to actually be better than Flash? Beat Yellow and have his teammates win more games so he could win more ace matches? I'm unsure what exactly you wanted out of Jaedong that could have proven him better than Flash - one ZvZ loss with a TRUE build order disadvantage, not a TvT one is all that separates Jaedong from a perfect record, and that seems like it wouldn't be enough to you. Flash losing extra games his teammates gave him a chance to play absolutely matters, but Jaedong's teammates not giving him those games should have no bearing on his ranking. Is it really a fair PR if the second-best or best player in the world doesn't have a shot at topping it with a perfect month, when the #1 struggled through his MSL group and failed to win a single ACE match? A half-decent Z in G5 would have sent Flash home. Summed up: What was the criterion that Jaedong would have needed to be #1 on this PR? Flash most certainly is not so far above Jaedong that nothing but the combination of "not winning an Ace Match all month" and "not advancing in MSL" is the only thing that could possibly dethrone him. | ||
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