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On July 02 2010 01:09 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
Flash being the 2nd most powerful guy in the game right now? Maybe, and that's a big big big maybe. If I had to put my life savings on Flash winning a game or a series against one randomly chosen player picked out of a hat, or I had to put my life savings on Jaedong winning a game or series against one randomly chosen player picked out of a hat, I'd still probably throw that money on Flash, even with Jaedong's nice wins and Flash's losses. I don't discount the blip on Flash's record lately, but I'd be hard pressed to put him at 2 now without some more evidence next month, and to put him at 3 is just pure ignorance.
agreed. I think it was Mani (please correct me if I'm wrong) who made a similar analogy way back when (I think Leta got #1 in that rank)
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For the first time ever, I completely disagree with just about everything on this PR. >_>
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On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd.
Dude, don't just diss. Say what you would change and why.
For example:
I believe Bisu should move up because he's gaining momentum and has had absolutely dominating play. He is also in both leagues compared to Great who is out of the OSL.
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I'm not gonna argue about #1 and #2, because as I've said before I think this was a judgement call. And although I expected Jaedong to be first (by your own logic what "losses" show you about a player). I just wanna comment on your arguments, which I just cannot agree on.
The second paragraph about flash mainly says that he has lost 7 games and played so damn well while losing them. This argument was true for a few games, but it is no longer accurate. He played ok against Ruby, horrible against Really, harmless against EffOrt and simply lucky against s2 (well that's a win actually). The game against Free is also no masterpiece. Real bad was only one out of his 7 losses but only 2-3 games (Baby, Skyhigh and maybe Hiya) have been really good. He has definitely looked shaken up at the end of the month. Quoting Flashs very own interview as contradictory evidence to make your point is a little bit like comedy.
What I find worse is when you give a hint that JD's month was maybe more 7-2 than 8-1, discounting one legit win plus adding a Bo1 loss in a hasty extra prelim tournament and discounting his 5 wins on this very day. If you are going to hold his loss vs Great against him, then just don't take the rest away from him. I would never expect that prelim games would count for much in any PR, but if you put 7-2 in parantheses, you might aswell put 13-2 next to it. And as already has been pointed out, Flashs game against Backho is also very close to a free win.
I'm actually gonna love the controversey this PR is gonna create after every game JD and Flash will play.
The rest of the PR looks really good. I would switch up Great with Sea. Bisu at #10 is ok, I personally would have given him a CNBC.
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United States10328 Posts
eh I think bisu at 10 is fine (maybe a bit conservative). sure, he beat the crap out of a lot of players this month... but these are players who aren't even good vP. The best vP player he beat was probably Roro. hyvaa, mind, skyhigh, tyson, sse[kal]? and 815? ... sure, lots of them play in proleague, but not really the best (or even good) vP players.
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On July 02 2010 01:44 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd. Dude, don't just diss. Say what you would change and why. For example: I believe Bisu should move up because he's gaining momentum and has had absolutely dominating play. He is also in both leagues compared to Great who is out of the OSL.
OK. I wouldn't say that Flash is the most powerful player in the world right now because he is losing more games then he is wining and he is playing bad.
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Even as a fan of Flash, I resoundingly disagree with Flash being #1 yet again. Isn't Power Ranking the gauge of a player's skill within the past month? The writer seems to still be hung up on the MSL/OSL games from May... If the Power Ranking was in fact done with the games played in June, I doubt Flash would have even made it to the top five.
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The game vs Classic where he never attacked Flash was the most hard fought battle imo.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Can you stop trolling the PR thread 12yearsofsc? It's getting really annoying
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Poll: Does Flash deserve #1?No (122) 71% Yes (49) 29% 171 total votes Your vote: Does Flash deserve #1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Decide
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 02 2010 01:18 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:14 darkemperor wrote:
I really don't see why Bisu is so behind in THIS month's Power Rank.. I mean he won Ace match for SKT.. He played like a beast in OSL & MSL qualifiers.. so what does he have to do more? He lost to Pusan & Stats .. ok.. but I mean really when Flash had a worse record, he can continue being #1 but pinpointing Bisu's.. really questionable.. I wouldn't see Bisu in Top 5, still.. but he deserved #6 or #7 IMO. Well he lost to #6 (who's been more consistent recently), free did pretty much the same as bisu but arguably better, sea won his seeding group, great's being playing beastly and came running up in his seeding group so really, without any S class scalps and a long absence from PR, 10 was the only spot I could justifiably give bisu. Anything higher would be assuming something more from bisu based on his history.
Wait hold on. I thought, just for a moment, that I saw something confusing in this sentence. NAH! Must've been a trick of the light.
I couldn't agree more with Snowdrift. Yeah, alright Flash's competitors were top-line players. Which is funny, because that's exactly the type of competition that you expect the #1 to beat. But he didn't. Which means that, since there are many other available candidates, Flash should fall. Now clearly he shouldn't fall off the ranking (Which is what would've happened to any other player with Flash's record.) but he should fall one or two spots. He's still one of the best players in the game. No disputing that. But is he playing like the #1 right now? Of course not.
One more thing. If there's anything that these last two months have taught us, it's that the days in which it was Flash and Jaedong only are over, and have been over for a while. Fantasy is closer to Flash than most people give him credit for. EffOrt is closer to Jaedong than most people give him credit for. And what's more, BaBy, Really, Sea are closer to the top that people suspect. These two players are the best, but they're the best because they work at it, and even then it's a constant battle. There's quite a bit of parity in SC right now.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him?
How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"?
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On July 02 2010 01:49 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:44 ghrur wrote:On July 02 2010 01:40 Elroi wrote:
This ranking is laughable... Probably the worst assessment of the players skill level I've seen since your blog about Effort. Man, someone else needs to write those rankings now. This is just absurd. Dude, don't just diss. Say what you would change and why. For example: I believe Bisu should move up because he's gaining momentum and has had absolutely dominating play. He is also in both leagues compared to Great who is out of the OSL. OK. I wouldn't say that Flash is the most powerful player in the world right now because he is losing more games then he is wining and he is playing bad.
He's winning equal amounts to his losses.
And I'd agree with you on that, but that alone doesn't discredit this power rank. What else makes the "laughable," "absurd," and "the worst assessment of the players skill level?"
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No one said Jaedong should be #1 simply because he has a better win-loss ratio so why does everyone keep spouting that same "this isn't the win loss rank" crap over and over again. Jaedong deserves to be #1 simply because he appears to be a stronger player overall. The way Jaedong is playing, he's expected to dominate just about everyone other than Flash. On the other hand, there are at least half a dozen players, if not more, who have a really solid chance of beating Flash.
Why the game was hard fought typically was due to a build order disadvantage or the other player played exceptionally well.
What build order disadvantage? Except for maybe the game against Ruby, all the other TvT matches were played from an even opening or Flash was the one who had the BO advantage. And justifying TvT losses by saying he had a slight BO disadvantage for someone who is supposedly near-bonjwa status is absurd. Even during that period where Jaedong would go 12 hatch all the time only to get overrun by a 9pooling zerg, Jaedong was never exempt from strong criticism despite ZvZ being much more punishing when it comes to BO disadvantages.
Indeed, it is almost impossible to determine what Flash's weakness is, or explain why he has been losing more often lately since Flash's play is still as beautiful as ever. I suspect that with the immanent release of SC2 all Progamers are giving this season their all in hopes to get as much money as possible out this (potentially) last season of Brood War and hence the overall skill level of the proscene has risen, thus making Flash's games closer.
And yet when faced against Jaedong, almost every player is getting completely demolished exactly as expected. If it's true that everyone suddenly started playing a lot better, why is this rise in skill level not seen in other games (namely against Jaedong)?
Jaedong had a good month, but it's not quite as good as people are trying to make out. He went 8-1 this month, one of which was foru's retirement match (i.e. essentially a free win). So in reality, Jaedong went 7-1 against opponents of varying skill level.
No. Just no. Just because a player is supposedly bad, we're supposed to pretend that any wins against him never happened? I can't even begin to describe how utterly ridiculous this reasoning is.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 02 2010 01:52 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:18 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:14 darkemperor wrote:
I really don't see why Bisu is so behind in THIS month's Power Rank.. I mean he won Ace match for SKT.. He played like a beast in OSL & MSL qualifiers.. so what does he have to do more? He lost to Pusan & Stats .. ok.. but I mean really when Flash had a worse record, he can continue being #1 but pinpointing Bisu's.. really questionable.. I wouldn't see Bisu in Top 5, still.. but he deserved #6 or #7 IMO. Well he lost to #6 (who's been more consistent recently), free did pretty much the same as bisu but arguably better, sea won his seeding group, great's being playing beastly and came running up in his seeding group so really, without any S class scalps and a long absence from PR, 10 was the only spot I could justifiably give bisu. Anything higher would be assuming something more from bisu based on his history. Wait hold on. I thought, just for a moment, that I saw something confusing in this sentence. NAH! Must've been a trick of the light. Would you like to look at Bisu's amazing games from May? (played three, lost three). When I mean based on history i mean the knowledge that Bisu is a 2 time former MSL champion and savior of the protoss race which has zero relevance in the PR.
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On July 02 2010 01:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 00:35 WWJDD wrote:
How can Flash be the player to beat when everybody and his mom is beating him? How does a few Terrans, and the current best Protoss in the world count as "everybody and his mom"?
A few might imply 3, but infact he lost to 5 terrans lololol. Yea sure the PR isn't about statistics but flash getting #1 is so laughable, he felt so weak this month I wouldn't even place him at #2.
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Hi, you say Flash sucks. I say he is arguably #1 in all of Starcraft right now.
And thus far, TLnet agrees with me:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133503
So if Flash is voted as #1 player in the world right now, the player you would bet your life on winning then why is it inconceivable that he is #1?
Power Rank tells you who is strongest. That's it's purpose. Always has been, always will be. If you go back and look at all the controversial choices made since the beginning of when Power Rank was founded, they were always made when the person writing the Power Rank decided they would sooner bet their life on that player than somebody else (or alternatively, wouldn't bet their life on that player at all, and thus ranked them lower than somebody else might have).
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On July 02 2010 01:55 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:52 tree.hugger wrote:On July 02 2010 01:18 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:14 darkemperor wrote:
I really don't see why Bisu is so behind in THIS month's Power Rank.. I mean he won Ace match for SKT.. He played like a beast in OSL & MSL qualifiers.. so what does he have to do more? He lost to Pusan & Stats .. ok.. but I mean really when Flash had a worse record, he can continue being #1 but pinpointing Bisu's.. really questionable.. I wouldn't see Bisu in Top 5, still.. but he deserved #6 or #7 IMO. Well he lost to #6 (who's been more consistent recently), free did pretty much the same as bisu but arguably better, sea won his seeding group, great's being playing beastly and came running up in his seeding group so really, without any S class scalps and a long absence from PR, 10 was the only spot I could justifiably give bisu. Anything higher would be assuming something more from bisu based on his history. Wait hold on. I thought, just for a moment, that I saw something confusing in this sentence. NAH! Must've been a trick of the light. Would you like to look at Bisu's amazing games from May? (played three, lost three). When I mean based on history i mean the knowledge that Bisu is a 2 time former MSL champion and savior of the protoss race which has zero relevance in the PR.
This is the JUNE Power Rank... Shouldn't you be looking objectively at the player's performance for the past 30 days?
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I predict this PR thread will have the most posts ever.
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On July 02 2010 02:00 FetusFondler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:55 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:52 tree.hugger wrote:On July 02 2010 01:18 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:14 darkemperor wrote:
I really don't see why Bisu is so behind in THIS month's Power Rank.. I mean he won Ace match for SKT.. He played like a beast in OSL & MSL qualifiers.. so what does he have to do more? He lost to Pusan & Stats .. ok.. but I mean really when Flash had a worse record, he can continue being #1 but pinpointing Bisu's.. really questionable.. I wouldn't see Bisu in Top 5, still.. but he deserved #6 or #7 IMO. Well he lost to #6 (who's been more consistent recently), free did pretty much the same as bisu but arguably better, sea won his seeding group, great's being playing beastly and came running up in his seeding group so really, without any S class scalps and a long absence from PR, 10 was the only spot I could justifiably give bisu. Anything higher would be assuming something more from bisu based on his history. Wait hold on. I thought, just for a moment, that I saw something confusing in this sentence. NAH! Must've been a trick of the light. Would you like to look at Bisu's amazing games from May? (played three, lost three). When I mean based on history i mean the knowledge that Bisu is a 2 time former MSL champion and savior of the protoss race which has zero relevance in the PR. This is the JUNE Power Rank... Shouldn't you be looking objectively at the player's performance for the past 30 days?
This is the June POWER RANK. Shouldn't you be trying to figure out who the strongest person in all of Starcraft right now is?
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EPT
