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On July 02 2010 01:59 Mortality wrote:Hi, you say Flash sucks. I say he is arguably #1 in all of Starcraft right now. And thus far, TLnet agrees with me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133503So if Flash is voted as #1 player in the world right now, the player you would bet your life on winning then why is it inconceivable that he is #1? Power Rank tells you who is strongest. That's it's purpose. Always has been, always will be. If you go back and look at all the controversial choices made since the beginning of when Power Rank was founded, they were always made when the person writing the Power Rank decided they would sooner bet their life on that player than somebody else (or alternatively, wouldn't bet their life on that player at all, and thus ranked them lower than somebody else might have).
We had two JD vs Flash polls a month ago with 10.000 votes, and now you quote your own thread after 50 people have voted? And I just checked and it was 18/18 between those two. Simply a very bad argument.
edit: offensive writing, sorry
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On July 02 2010 02:00 FetusFondler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:55 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:52 tree.hugger wrote:On July 02 2010 01:18 Plexa wrote:On July 02 2010 01:14 darkemperor wrote:
I really don't see why Bisu is so behind in THIS month's Power Rank.. I mean he won Ace match for SKT.. He played like a beast in OSL & MSL qualifiers.. so what does he have to do more? He lost to Pusan & Stats .. ok.. but I mean really when Flash had a worse record, he can continue being #1 but pinpointing Bisu's.. really questionable.. I wouldn't see Bisu in Top 5, still.. but he deserved #6 or #7 IMO. Well he lost to #6 (who's been more consistent recently), free did pretty much the same as bisu but arguably better, sea won his seeding group, great's being playing beastly and came running up in his seeding group so really, without any S class scalps and a long absence from PR, 10 was the only spot I could justifiably give bisu. Anything higher would be assuming something more from bisu based on his history. Wait hold on. I thought, just for a moment, that I saw something confusing in this sentence. NAH! Must've been a trick of the light. Would you like to look at Bisu's amazing games from May? (played three, lost three). When I mean based on history i mean the knowledge that Bisu is a 2 time former MSL champion and savior of the protoss race which has zero relevance in the PR. This is the JUNE Power Rank... Shouldn't you be looking objectively at the player's performance for the past 30 days?
The PR takes more than just the past 30 days into account. -__-
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This PR is a tribute to what Flash did from October to now, and at that I can't fault it. Flash performed something that had never been done before and I can understand giving benefit of the doubt. That said I wouldn't have been upset with JD being #1 either.
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On July 02 2010 01:59 Mortality wrote:
So if Flash is voted as #1 player in the world right now, the player you would bet your life on winning then why is it inconceivable that he is #1?
Guess what. I was not even surprised when he lost to Effort today. Moreover, I had a strange feeling that I expected this.
#2 for Flash was good for sure. As it was said before, his current ressults could be just a mini-slump. He should get it and then prove there were only accidental loses before get on the same top. It should be something like "Oh yeah, he is awsome, and yet he is performing poor so he must redeem himself in the next month so we could put him on the #1 again".
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On July 02 2010 02:11 revy wrote:
This PR is a tribute to what Flash did from October to now, and at that I can't fault it. Flash performed something that had never been done before and I can understand giving benefit of the doubt. That said I wouldn't have been upset with JD being #1 either.
Ya, this sums it up pretty well.
Wow, just looked at TLPD, and Flash is close to losing his position as the #1 in ELO for the first time since I don't know how far back. 
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Flash powers:
TvP - Flash looked a human being only in the game vs Free. I would give it 80%
TvT - Flash lost many TvT's this month and looked like he could lose to any good TvT-er. 60%
TvZ - He lost to Effort only. Seems like effort found some weakness in Flash play, but I'm sure he would have no chance vs Flash in another Bo5. I think Flash is still immortal in TvZ - 90%
Jaedong powers:
ZvP - His last loss was to Stork, like 3 months ago. He didn't have chance to meet Stork again after that, but he certainly would be favorite against any protoss in Bo5 now. Here he is immortal - 90%
ZvT - Since his loss to Flash, I didn't see anything that could point to me his ZvT is good again. In thins match up he has to prove yet he's good again. 60%
ZvZ - In this match up Jaedong is looking mortal since ever. He is still good, but his vZ is not JvZ anymore. Strength - 80%
Overall, both are at the same level. Now, taking into account Flash from one month ago, and their last Bo5 battle, this PR seems pretty correct to me.
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On July 02 2010 02:16 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:11 revy wrote:
This PR is a tribute to what Flash did from October to now, and at that I can't fault it. Flash performed something that had never been done before and I can understand giving benefit of the doubt. That said I wouldn't have been upset with JD being #1 either. Ya, this sums it up pretty well. Wow, just looked at TLPD, and Flash is close to losing his position as the #1 in ELO for the first time since I don't know how far back.
I think he took 1st in ELO sometime last August. I remember it being funny that Flash was not on the PR yet during the month he was 1st in ELO. I think he's held it ever since then.
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On July 02 2010 02:16 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 02:11 revy wrote:
This PR is a tribute to what Flash did from October to now, and at that I can't fault it. Flash performed something that had never been done before and I can understand giving benefit of the doubt. That said I wouldn't have been upset with JD being #1 either. Ya, this sums it up pretty well. Wow, just looked at TLPD, and Flash is close to losing his position as the #1 in ELO for the first time since I don't know how far back.
It was kinda close after Jaedong won Nate MSL (20 points or so I think). And it was pretty close before the Last MSL final as well (close enough that a 3-1 victory would have placed Jaedong at #1). Still not this close though, so annoying that Jaedong just fell 1 point short after today
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The PR isn't the same thing as an ELO rank, but I think the ELO shows just how far ahead Flash has been until very, very recently; he loses more than 50% of his games during a month while JD goes on a nice winning streak, and Flash is still ahead. 
I really don't think Plexa's decision is that unreasonable.
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On July 02 2010 02:06 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:59 Mortality wrote:Hi, you say Flash sucks. I say he is arguably #1 in all of Starcraft right now. And thus far, TLnet agrees with me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133503So if Flash is voted as #1 player in the world right now, the player you would bet your life on winning then why is it inconceivable that he is #1? Power Rank tells you who is strongest. That's it's purpose. Always has been, always will be. If you go back and look at all the controversial choices made since the beginning of when Power Rank was founded, they were always made when the person writing the Power Rank decided they would sooner bet their life on that player than somebody else (or alternatively, wouldn't bet their life on that player at all, and thus ranked them lower than somebody else might have). We had two JD vs Flash polls a month ago with 10.000 votes, and now you quote your own thread after 50 people have voted? And I just checked and it was 18/18 between those two. Simply a very bad argument. edit: offensive writing, sorry
Flash won both those polls. But that was then. That was before Flash faced Jaedong in the MSL finals (both times).
I believe Flash will win the thread I made. However I have I also made that thread with a different motive (I want to see who else besides Flash and Jaedong people would consider betting their lives on, though I don't think many people will vote for anyone other than Flash or Jaedong).
If you don't think Flash should be considered #1, then vote against him. Right now it's a race, 33-32 last I checked, with Flash leading.
This is who you would bet your life on. Not "who posted the best statistics in June." And that is what Power Rank is all about. Because the people there know, or at least should know that Flash has been losing a lot of ace matches recently. Are they still willing to bet their life? Or do they think that these are just a few bumps on the road?
They also know that Jaedong's ZvT sometimes struggles when he faces S-class TvZers like Flash, Baby, or Light. But do they think that Jaedong's more solid performance in the aftermath of the MSL finals makes him a more favorable candidate for #1?
Power Ranks purpose isn't to rehash monthly accomplishments. If you want that, read the news or go open up TLPD. Power Rank is an attempt to get past the statistics alone to decide who really is #1. Because even the best player can lose.
Yet again I reiterate: If you want to look at tournament results, check out the KeSPA rankings. If you want to look at who's on the best tear, go check out ELO rankings. Neither gives a foolproof assessment of skill. Power Rank attempts to do better, but introduces subjectivity in the mix to do so. That's always been what Power Rank was about. Since the very beginning. Don't believe me? Go back and read Power Rank from late 2006 or early 2007. You'll see it was exactly what I'm saying it was, and that's NOT a rehash of statistics.
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I admit up front that I'm an EffOrt fanboy, but even digging deep down and suppressing that, I think he deserves either #2 or #3 spot. I think Jaedong has surpassed Flash by the vast majority of unbiased metrics and I would rank him #1 this month. After that, you are left with Fantasy, Effort and Flash. Flash and Effort have had similar losses to players well below their level, but statistically this is to be expected- no one is perfect all the time. However both have also had good wins against high level players. The deciding factor in this power rank for me would be Effort flat out beating Flash last night (which was concluded before this power rank was posted, thus its inclusion in the analysis). Effort out mind-gamed Flash, then when Flash tried to go into his extremely strong 4-base turtle, Effort had none of it and ended the match before Flash could get an advantage. As such, given the record of those two vs other players and vs eachother, I argue for the moment, Effort > Flash. Clearly Flash > fantasy. As such I would rank
Jaedong
Effort
Flash
Fantasy
...
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On July 02 2010 00:08 Plexa wrote:
-Why the game was hard fought typically was due to a build order disadvantage or the other player played exceptionally well. Indeed, it is almost impossible to determine what Flash's weakness is, or explain why he has been losing more often lately since Flash's play is still as beautiful as ever. I suspect that with the immanent release of SC2 all Progamers are giving this season their all in hopes to get as much money as possible out this (potentially) last season of Brood War and hence the overall skill level of the proscene has risen, thus making Flash's games closer.
This passage is lol
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Did you beat Flash this month? Then congrats, you probably made Power Rank!
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I almost cried after seeing this PR . i mean really . i really almost let a tear run on me . it feel even more sad when i see how good the 3# to 10# is . ( maybe bisu higher and horang2 in , but we cant have everything )
in my personnal opinion , flash dont even deserve 2# or 3# . i really dont get you guys how can its possible to argue flash 1# this month . i really really dont see how can this is POSSIBLE . this was a very beautiful starcraft month plexa . beautiful back of bisu , fantasy/boxer art of SC , great and sea show , free and stats BEAUTIFUL games . my god that was .. really some of best month ive ever seen in starcraft . and you blew it completly with your fuckflashgordon at 1# .. like i said , i was really not far of crying . i dont care about jaedong being 1# or not . i dont care . you can put fantasy , free or bisu at 1# , i would have loved it . really . but flash .. you really blew everything plexa . i know your knoweldge of starcraft is good , but you are really losing your credibility of your objectivity . flash was not far to lose to s2 this morning ( s2 =(((((( ) , if he did lose , what would have flash look like ?
like you said plexa , its all about strengh . we learn more about a player strengh in his loses . that was so true . you seem really to be a good fan of starcraft . so why that ? why that now ? i dont care about flash record double finals joke . jaedong achievements are lol better than flash ones . i dont care about it . i dont care about JD's golden mouse double MSL WCG crazy zvz ect ect ect . i dont care . if JD plays bad , he is down , thats simple . in frebruary month , jaedong was 5 4 like you said , but he had a good month . so he stay high . this month flash played bad . dont tell me about his fighting spirit which lead him to late game hard fights . he played good games for sure ( vs skyhigh , vs ruby first game and maybe the baby one ) but in overall month , he played BAD . he got so raped by free my god .. how can you even argue about put him 1# after just this one epic game ?
you lack of objectivity plexa , its obvious . im not talking about my opinion . as the hardest JD fan , i would have not put him 1# this month even if he played really really well . i think i would have put fantasy , bisu , stats or free who deserve it more than him , but only fantasy would have been acceptable . so i think i put fantasy . but whoever i put , jaedong , fantasy , bisu , free or stats , i would have NOT put a player who is 0 7 in ace match , which are maybe the most important matchs in korean scene . koreans are more concerned about PL than individual leagues . so losing 0 7 in ace match is an EPIC EPIC EPIC fail . i could write really many arguments explaining precisely why flash is not a great player as nada , boxer , jaedong , nal ra or others . but it is not the question . PR is about facts . and the fact is , flash SUCKED this month . try to questioning yourself about that . flash 1# is just not fair and wrong .
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On the basis of "Power", I think I take issue with this rank. If I look into the future, Flash - short of an unlucky run-up against EffOrt or Jaedong, or a fluke win by some other player - is a favorite to make (and probably win) at least one final AGAIN this season.
But that's in the future (and ignoring the possibility that he plays EffOrt or Jaedong earlier). On a monthly basis, I just can't consider Flash #1 right now, because Flash isn't winning ace matches. He's not winning ace matches against players he's already beaten. When it goes to ace, Flash just isn't a favorite right now if the other team has a great player. And - although I don't know if the PR was up before the games - he lost against EffOrt again last night in underwhelming fashion. He's not favored against everybody anymore - EffOrt has demonstrated convincingly that he can beat the "Little Monster" repeatedly, and Flash vs Jaedong is starting to look as dead-even as it always has been. This is leaving out players like Snow and free too, because those might have been flukes.
Jaedong has re-established himself as an every-time favorite, where Flash has fallen off meteorically. I know it's only a single month, but I feel like Flash really did lose himself #1 with that string of ace losses. #2, fine, but not number one. I understand these sort of impressions are kind of subjective, and I'm not going to kill you for it, but I really think this was the wrong call.
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Other quibbles: BaBy and great should be switched. I am a KHAN fan, but what great's done for the team is little short of phenomenal. You yourself blame the OSL people for forcing a great-Sea match this early, and great hasn't had to play yet in the MSL. BaBy's just been mediocre, and despite a nice run over the last few months I don't think he's earned immunity to average/bad months yet.
I think Stats and free should be switched - possibly even drop Stats a bit. There's essentially no difference in Snow's and Stats' records, and Snow only made CNBC even though you have Stats at #6? Kind of ridiculous.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:45 Musoeun wrote:
Other quibbles: BaBy and great should be switched. I am a KHAN fan, but what great's done for the team is little short of phenomenal. You yourself blame the OSL people for forcing a great-Sea match this early, and great hasn't had to play yet in the MSL. BaBy's just been mediocre, and despite a nice run over the last few months I don't think he's earned immunity to average/bad months yet. Baby has been consistently 4/5 for a few months now actually I mean I know great is a good player and all (i PRd him 2 months ago) but he really got a raw deal this month. Still, he's got the MSL to redeem himself and I really hope he does (but he's got a tough group).
I think Stats and free should be switched - possibly even drop Stats a bit. There's essentially no difference in Snow's and Stats' records, and Snow only made CNBC even though you have Stats at #6? Kind of ridiculous. For the most part of this month snow and stats were neck and neck, the key differential is that snow lost a pretty poor series to Really in what is supposed to be his best matchup. Perhaps I'm a bit harsh on him, but he doesn't really have the pvp/pvz results to keep him sticking around in the PR this month (when compared to others, at least). Stats on the other hand came runner up in his seed group (to hyuk) and has posted good pvp/pvt and pvz results for a while. That's why stats is still up there. Switching free and stats is debatable, free has always been pretty inconsistent so I err'd on the side of keeping him lower this month. If stats fails in the OSL it'll look pretty stupid though, I admit.
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the amount of butthurt anti fans in this thread is hilarious
keep going flash anti fans, you are such good entertainment
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Flash is getting propped up by his May results here, admitted in the text of the Power Rank by Plexa. He had clearly worse results than Jaedong in June, and paid for it not by dropping in rank, but by losing the free pass he had from being the previously undisputed best.
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On July 02 2010 01:09 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
Flash being the 2nd most powerful guy in the game right now? Maybe, and that's a big big big maybe. If I had to put my life savings on Flash winning a game or a series against one randomly chosen player picked out of a hat, or I had to put my life savings on Jaedong winning a game or series against one randomly chosen player picked out of a hat, I'd still probably throw that money on Flash, even with Jaedong's nice wins and Flash's losses. I don't discount the blip on Flash's record lately, but I'd be hard pressed to put him at 2 now without some more evidence next month, and to put him at 3 is just pure ignorance.
I have to be completely honest with you guys. Here I was, sitting at my computer absolutely RAGING. How could Jaedong be 2nd. Bias is ruining the holiness that is team liquid.
As a huge Jaedong fanboy, I was just reaching to grab my torch and pitchfork for a good old g20 style pillaging, when I read this post, and realized... my god... hes right.
Way to stick to your guns plexa, good PR.
But I would have liked to see Bisu ahead of great ^^
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EPT
