EPTHow to fix TvZ Mech - Page 4
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:16 avilo wrote: But do you see any good Zergs massing nydus late game after they are maxed? That is the next step of lategame ZvT, yet Zergs still refuse to do it. Holy crap dude. With sensor towers and the weapons range of vikings and siege tanks, how do you ever propose that Z is going to be able to have line of sight and place all those nydus worms? And that is BEFORE you take into the account the pure cost of all those nydus networks and worms, they are not free. Also, I havent really tested how multiple nydus networks would work. Are all the units still gathered in one master network, or will you need to manage WHICH network to place the units in? The no overkill feature of the siege tanks is OP as it stands. | ||
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skYfiVe
United States382 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:17 avilo wrote: He could have dropped. He hesitated and was indecisive. It cost him. And this bullshit of people saying "there's a sensor tower there, I'm not gonna make an effort" is just a very bad mentality to have. Have you played Zerg vs Mech before? Maybe you should see it from the other player's perspective sometimes. Qxc had the ability to sit like 15 tanks in his main, which he had if you actually watch the replay. The drop would have done 0 damage, and why don't you pay attention to the original arguement, not the trolls all over this thread. Mainly what Raelcun points out is that tanks do not overkill, which gets rid of the ability of any kind of zealot bombs/drops on tanks. He is simply stating overkill should be implented. How is that some major nerf? Tanks are still almost impossible to break 200/200 in SC1.. and they overkill. How do you fix that in sc2 when the AI is so good? ~~ Also, 10 Nydus Canals? That is only 3000/3000. Real cheap.. and worth it. Especially when you have sensor towers to spot everything. | ||
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:21 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: @avilo Do the math on nydus worms please, to build multiple nydus worms at the same time you need ANOTHER nydus network. Each network is 200/200 each worm is 100/100 so each worm in a multiple nydus worm strategy is 300/300 to make 5-10 worms at the same time you're talking 1500/1500 or 3000/3000 you have to be kidding me. I know hahaha. I laughed out loud at the comment of building 10 nydus worms. Especially since they can all be killed pretty quickly, especially since the Zerg has to wait to see which nydus network to put all of his units in. Hahahahahaha. The thing about a lot of this discussion is that people aren't thinking about the stuff you don't see. The Mech build offers a TON of flexibility way more so than the zerg. So a lot of these theorycrafted solutions may be cute and work say once, but Terran can quickly adapt to deal with how these threats play out. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
he DID have 30 minutes to get out broodlords. anyways,not saying mech isn't op. i play zerg and siege tanks are to frustrating to play against. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
At least, show me some replays where a mass broodlord and corrupter army from high level players can't beat TvZ and then I will start listening to your arguments. Three replays are great, but all three use ground armies to try to beat a seiged up tank army. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:04 Doso wrote: It's not broken, no need to remove something from the AI just to make Zerg players feel better. I remember at the beginning of the beta everyone was like OMFG Tanks suck, now they have 10 hp more and everyone is like OMFG imba. ehh at least get your facts straight. The reason tanks have become so strong is not because some petty increase in hp. It is because the splash mechanic was changed | ||
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Shizuru~
Malaysia1676 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:23 EnderW wrote: Indeed, all these people crying "USE NYDUS WORMS" have obviously not played both sides of this matchup. It's really really sad how many people use such terrible logic to support their points. well, hate the game not the players, it ain't our fault that blizz made terran armies too strong against ground armies, again all that zerg players can do now is to hopefully explore every possible tool they have at their disposal at the moments to break even, its better than just to give up entirely and just flame each other on the forums. i do sympathize zergs players in TvZ match-ups, but there's nothing we can do now atm until blizz does something about it right? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On June 03 2010 09:46 iCCup.Raelcun wrote: Okay think about it, 3-3 tanks kill roaches in two shots so large amounts of roaches get melted, ultralisks are still too slow and die easily to focus fire so that they're not viable against tanks but they're quite good against masses of warpgate units for toss so you can't buff ultras anymore. If you nerf tanks it breaks the tvp matchup. Tanks would still kill a 200/200 army in good position but it would be weakened to the point where an instant macro refresh by a zerg that is WAY ahead like in the first two games would be able to run in a second army to finish it off. Because Sheth wasn't able to do enough if any damage to the tank blob to finish it off, and in steppes of war watch it carefully qxc even had HALF his tanks sitting idle in his base. So he was suiciding 200/200 armies on about a 150 supply army by qxc. 3/3 roaches can just barely take 2 tank hits can't they? It's 60+15 - 4(roach armor at 3/3) or 71per hit, 142 for 2 and roaches have 145hp. I still 100% agree with your points though. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
Now I'm not going to say mech isn't strong, but here are my thoughts: Well, the first thing I notice is that the first real engagement of the game is Sheth essentially sacrificing his whole army to delay QXC's 3 o'clock base. Yes, they are even in food when this first battle takes place, but if you look at the army tab you see that QXC's army is a much better. He has a 5.4K mins / 2.9K gas in his force versus Sheth's 3.4K min / 1.5K gas force. Sheth had 1.5K gas in the bank. 1500 gas is a lot of high tech units that should have been out on the field. Given the fact that Sheth basically commits all of his roaches to delaying that expansion, trapping his whole army behind sieged tanks, I have to say I'm not surprised in the least that QXC basically suffered no army losses. The rest of the game was fairly straight forward as the gas invested in QXC's army consistently DOUBLED that of Sheth's army even though they were even on bases for most of the game.. It looked to me like he didn't have any sort of plan in dealing with the mech, and was just trying random things. Yes mech is good but I think zergs need more time. Just my 2c. | ||
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
I will NOT believe that Terran mech is overpowered until you show a little more diversity in the replays you show in your arguments. I saw all those games live, and I never saw either one of those players try air against it. Both players just kept throwing wave after wave of ground army at them. At least, show me some replays where a mass broodlord and corrupter army from high level players can't beat TvZ and then I will start listening to your arguments. Three replays are great, but all three use ground armies to try to beat a seiged up tank army. air would have been suicide when thors reach critical mass and have ravens near them no ammount of air can even get close they just melt befor coming within range. | ||
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EnderW
United States170 Posts
A) Sheth didn't play very well in the late game B) Sheth didn't use all his options well. But I have seen/played tons of high level games where the players DID play well late game, and DID get corruptors/brood lords w/ 3/3 air and 3/3/3 ground, and still had similar results. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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mondry
United States40 Posts
You could argue broodlords fit this role but Vikings rape them so hard and being not only hive tech, not only greater spire tech, but morphed from a corruptor makes them just so incredibly easy to counter. That is 234 "time" from when you start the Hive to your first broodlord. Because there is absolutely ZERO other reason to get a hive, it's obvious that a terran needs to counter boordlords. Not to mention by making broodlords, you become easier targets to Vikings by having LESS corruptors and that just seems fundamentally flawed as well. It's either something like that, or you have to go back to the drawing board and change 5 other zerg units. As it stands, there is a terran unit that HARD COUNTERS every single zerg unit. Of course, there is another obvious solution to this problem and that is to simply make the maps bigger. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2767 Posts
What isn't hard countered is mopped up by insane firepower (thors, tanks, banshees, like 2 ghosts if you try to be like "hey, I'll get the shitty guardian replacement because it's my best unit"). The terrible terrible damage of Terran units is fine only if there's a way to approach it on the battlefield. Kind of silly the way it is now. Zergs shouldn't have to feel like they have to end the game quickly (they can't anyway, all their shit's at t2) no matter what. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Another BS issue is the fact that sensor towers even exist, it makes it so that any drops get completely denied beacuse the T can react with his vikings and just shut down the drop immediatly. My fix: Larger and more open maps Remove sensor towers. Please don't look at tanks for the solution, I think they're fine - YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED for suiciding your army into sieged tanks with no plan. That is not the issue, the issue is that you cannot harass or drop Terran at all so that you're FORCED to suicide your army into siege tanks while walking through narrow corridors making flanking impossible. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:29 Aurdon wrote: I will NOT believe that Terran mech is overpowered until you show a little more diversity in the replays you show in your arguments. I saw all those games live, and I never saw either one of those players try air against it. Both players just kept throwing wave after wave of ground army at them. At least, show me some replays where a mass broodlord and corrupter army from high level players can't beat TvZ and then I will start listening to your arguments. Three replays are great, but all three use ground armies to try to beat a seiged up tank army. lol corruptors against ravens, thors and vikings. all of which QXC has in the replays; and without corruptors the broodlords will just get smashed. | ||
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